Terrible Players, Or Terrible Use of our Players? - Redux

[rainmaker]

I thought I'd bump this thread since it's applicable to the current debate around here.

I encourage everyone labeling Cuz and Rudy as selfish and as not buying in to go to the first posts of this thread and look at what an actual motion offense looks like in action. Notice the movement, strong and weak side. Notice the options. Notice the cutting/diving/screening with a purpose. Notice the spacing. Cuz and Rudy simply don't have those options. The motion comes from all 5 guys.

If we had anything resembling that and Cuz/Rudy were still putting their heads down and forcing up crap, then one could legitimately argue they aren't buying in. Until then, it's more a coaching/personnel issue and poor use of our players.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

i think it's a little of both. Outside of Rudy and Cuz, our team is

But i also see a lot of questionable decisions by the coach. Like using Williams over Casspi, playing players out of position a lot, and not instituting much of an offensive system it seems.

Would be nice to get some movement off the ball going, try to get shooters open, rather than just having them stand on the 3pt line not moving and hoping the defender gets bored and goes to defend someone else

 

[King Baller]

Did somebody say motion offense?

 

[King Baller]

 

[King Baller]

 

[The_Jamal]

A little of both. I don't think you can take Rudy and Cuz off the hook for his supporting cast, but it's certainly true that there's very little movement that would lead to great ball movement on the offensive end. The reason the Spurs are able to move the ball so well is their star players are incredibly unselfish and don't care if they're the ones taking shots.

 

[upinsmoke]

I don't like how CUZ is being used. The ball is force fed to him and he's told to go get a bucket. I would rather see Cuz get the ball on the high block and look to distribute and get his buckets in the flow of the game rather than post up after post up. Also free Ray!

 

[kingsboi]

It really is a combination of both, but more so, for me...we just don't have adequate enough players. Too many players that belong deeper on the bench rather than starting. Another thing, I love Cousins being aggressive as long as he keeps doing so in the post I don't mind the misses, he just needs to play under control more. Gay also needs to be told to pass the ball and stop forcing shots otherwise sit him down. That being said, I don't want to go into further detail because it's been one game and we knew we weren't going to be very good anyway this season regardless how optimistic some of us are.

 

[VF21]

It really is a combination of both, but more so, for me...we just don't have adequate enough players. Too many players that belong deeper on the bench rather than starting. Another thing, I love Cousins being aggressive as long as he keeps doing so in the post I don't mind the misses, he just needs to play under control more. Gay also needs to be told to pass the ball and stop forcing shots otherwise sit him down. That being said, I don't want to go into further detail because it's been one game and we knew we weren't going to be very good anyway this season regardless how optimistic some of us are.

Pass the ball to whom? Watching the game last night, I saw many opportunities missed because players not named Gay or Cousins were either nailed to the floor or running around like chickens without heads, cancelling out even the remote possibility of them being able to take a pass from anyone else. It's easy to blame Gay, but you have to also include his potential targets.

 

[kingsboi]

Pass the ball to whom? Watching the game last night, I saw many opportunities missed because players not named Gay or Cousins were either nailed to the floor or running around like chickens without heads, cancelling out even the remote possibility of them being able to take a pass from anyone else. It's easy to blame Gay, but you have to also include his potential targets.

Pass the ball to your team mates in order to get the ball back for a better shot, I suppose? better that than dribbling the ball up the court, and forcing a shot with his guy draped all over him.

 

[VF21]

Pass the ball to your team mates in order to get the ball back for a better shot, I suppose? better that than dribbling the ball up the court, and forcing a shot with his guy draped all over him.

There has to be someone open to pass to. I'm not saying Rudy is perfect by any means, but there were numerous times last night the only person he could have passed to would have been in white or stripes. Too many times there was no cogent attempt by others to get open. Yes, they moved but not with anything resembling a goal of doing anything other than perhaps a quick game of keepaway. You can't just dump on Rudy without taking in the bigger picture. (Well, you can but you'd be wrong.)

 

[Big Cuz 15]

could it be the lack of imagination from the coach? he is a defensive minded coach. mark jackson was the one drawing up the offensive sets for GSW.

 

[206Fan]

It seems like the guys are having trouble buying into the system

Here's an encouraging interview from Malone. I think it's been terrible decision making and low IQ bball at play. Hopefully we can take this W against Portland tomorrow.

 

[kingsboi]

There has to be someone open to pass to. I'm not saying Rudy is perfect by any means, but there were numerous times last night the only person he could have passed to would have been in white or stripes. Too many times there was no cogent attempt by others to get open. Yes, they moved but not with anything resembling a goal of doing anything other than perhaps a quick game of keepaway. You can't just dump on Rudy without taking in the bigger picture. (Well, you can but you'd be wrong.)

I'm not dumping on Rudy. Everybody needs to be held accountable, not just him. If players aren't buying in then who's to blame here..

 

[rainmaker]

Pass the ball to your team mates in order to get the ball back for a better shot, I suppose? better that than dribbling the ball up the court, and forcing a shot with his guy draped all over him.

But that's the greater issue here, as that requires proper movement and spacing. There's a reason I suggested looking at those clips as a motion offense, or really any good offense, is not predicated on passing for passing's sake. So for argument's sake, let's say you'd rather Rudy swing the ball to Ben up top, then what? Where's the back-screen for Rudy cutting to the block/rim? Where's the spacing for that to happen with both bigs up high? Where's the shooters in the corners to pull out defenders to allow the spacing for it to happen in the first place? When Ben is holding the rock up top, is there weak-side action too? Do we actually have a shooter like Nik running off screens on the weak-side to command attention? Are our bigs diving? Cuz did yesterday, none of the others did. Does Malone have our bigs screening both on the ball and off? Exactly how are we supposed to free up guys with screens if Omri/Landry/DWill are impersonating as 4's and 5's?

There's so much which goes into this aside from Rudy needs to pass more. When there's no system in place, whether it's Rudy or anyone else, there's few options, which results in forced shots, poor shots and more guys going 1v1, which is what we saw yesterday.

Rudy is best in two positions, posting up about 15 ft out or in a spread P&R up top. We pretty much have done neither all preseason or last night. Why not get Rudy in the post, space the floor and run some flares/dives off him with some basic movement? He does command attention when posting. Why, after it being successful last year, have we not seen the Rudy/Cuz two-man game, P&R or P&P with the floor spread?

My theory to why we don't see any of this is because of the message coming down from higher up about positionless, up tempo basketball. For Malone to slow it down and really hammer out a motion based, halfcourt offense, he'd being going against his bosses public wishes. There's no defined roles nor is there any kind of maturity/patience in the halfcourt setting, as it's not a priority. Is anyone really surprised that we keep hearing about positionless, up and down basketball, then our halfcourt sets don't look good? If people think Rudy and Cuz really can't understand or fit into a system, look at USA basketball. Much shorter period of time together yet they followed the system. Until the gold medal game, Cuz was largely a screen setter and freed up the shooters through movement. Was also a willing passer with movement/cutters off him. Rudy wasn't a ball stopper, he was a floor spreader and ball mover. Do people think these two don't want to win, after how excited they look in Spain? The underlying issue would be why don't they trust their teammates or our system and branching off that, do we have a system worth trusting and do they ahve teammates worth trusting? If I'm Rudy, I'm not sure why I'd be expected to trust a Ben or DWill or Omri or Evans or JT to do something positive with the rock over myself.

 

[kingsboi]

But that's the greater issue here, as that requires proper movement and spacing. There's a reason I suggested looking at those clips as a motion offense, or really any good offense, is not predicated on passing for passing's sake. So for argument's sake, let's say you'd rather Rudy swing the ball to Ben up top, then what? Where's the back-screen for Rudy cutting to the block/rim? Where's the spacing for that to happen with both bigs up high? Where's the shooters in the corners to pull out defenders to allow the spacing for it to happen in the first place? When Ben is holding the rock up top, is there weak-side action too? Do we actually have a shooter like Nik running off screens on the weak-side to command attention? Are our bigs diving? Cuz did yesterday, none of the others did. Does Malone have our bigs screening both on the ball and off? Exactly how are we supposed to free up guys with screens if Omri/Landry/DWill are impersonating as 4's and 5's?

There's so much which goes into this aside from Rudy needs to pass more. When there's no system in place, whether it's Rudy or anyone else, there's few options, which results in forced shots, poor shots and more guys going 1v1, which is what we saw yesterday.

Rudy is best in two positions, posting up about 15 ft out or in a spread P&R up top. We pretty much have done neither all preseason or last night. Why not get Rudy in the post, space the floor and run some flares/dives off him with some basic movement? He does command attention when posting. Why, after it being successful last year, have we not seen the Rudy/Cuz two-man game, P&R or P&P with the floor spread?

My theory to why we don't see any of this is because of the message coming down from higher up about positionless, up tempo basketball. For Malone to slow it down and really hammer out a motion based, halfcourt offense, he'd being going against his bosses public wishes. There's no defined roles nor is there any kind of maturity/patience in the halfcourt setting, as it's not a priority. Is anyone really surprised that we keep hearing about positionless, up and down basketball, then our halfcourt sets don't look good? If people think Rudy and Cuz really can't understand or fit into a system, look at USA basketball. Much shorter period of time together yet they followed the system. Until the gold medal game, Cuz was largely a screen setter and freed up the shooters through movement. Was also a willing passer with movement/cutters off him. Rudy wasn't a ball stopper, he was a floor spreader and ball mover. Do people think these two don't want to win, after how excited they look in Spain? The underlying issue would be why don't they trust their teammates or our system and branching off that, do we have a system worth trusting and do they ahve teammates worth trusting? If I'm Rudy, I'm not sure why I'd be expected to trust a Ben or DWill or Omri or Evans or JT to do something positive with the rock over myself.

If anything is obvious, it is the fact that the players are not being put into positions to succeed or they are not grasping what they are supposed to do. Now, they added a lot of new players and Rudy hasn't been around too long either so I am assuming this is still the phase where the players have to get accustomed to one another before we see a proper motion offense. Regardless, there will be another trade or two before this season is over, at least so I hope. Hence, we will be seeing even more new players added to the system, which will take even longer in the season to understand how to play as a team. One example from last nights game, for whatever reason Reggie was getting the ball from the top of the key and or players throwing him the ball in the post when he can't make anything in there to save his life.

 

[Chupacabra]

Neither. It was game one. By no means do I think that this game is representative of the season ahead. Everyone is jumping the gun.

 

[VF21]

But that's the greater issue here, as that requires proper movement and spacing. There's a reason I suggested looking at those clips as a motion offense, or really any good offense, is not predicated on passing for passing's sake. So for argument's sake, let's say you'd rather Rudy swing the ball to Ben up top, then what? Where's the back-screen for Rudy cutting to the block/rim? Where's the spacing for that to happen with both bigs up high? Where's the shooters in the corners to pull out defenders to allow the spacing for it to happen in the first place? When Ben is holding the rock up top, is there weak-side action too? Do we actually have a shooter like Nik running off screens on the weak-side to command attention? Are our bigs diving? Cuz did yesterday, none of the others did. Does Malone have our bigs screening both on the ball and off? Exactly how are we supposed to free up guys with screens if Omri/Landry/DWill are impersonating as 4's and 5's?

There's so much which goes into this aside from Rudy needs to pass more. When there's no system in place, whether it's Rudy or anyone else, there's few options, which results in forced shots, poor shots and more guys going 1v1, which is what we saw yesterday.

Rudy is best in two positions, posting up about 15 ft out or in a spread P&R up top. We pretty much have done neither all preseason or last night. Why not get Rudy in the post, space the floor and run some flares/dives off him with some basic movement? He does command attention when posting. Why, after it being successful last year, have we not seen the Rudy/Cuz two-man game, P&R or P&P with the floor spread?

My theory to why we don't see any of this is because of the message coming down from higher up about positionless, up tempo basketball. For Malone to slow it down and really hammer out a motion based, halfcourt offense, he'd being going against his bosses public wishes. There's no defined roles nor is there any kind of maturity/patience in the halfcourt setting, as it's not a priority. Is anyone really surprised that we keep hearing about positionless, up and down basketball, then our halfcourt sets don't look good? If people think Rudy and Cuz really can't understand or fit into a system, look at USA basketball. Much shorter period of time together yet they followed the system. Until the gold medal game, Cuz was largely a screen setter and freed up the shooters through movement. Was also a willing passer with movement/cutters off him. Rudy wasn't a ball stopper, he was a floor spreader and ball mover. Do people think these two don't want to win, after how excited they look in Spain? The underlying issue would be why don't they trust their teammates or our system and branching off that, do we have a system worth trusting and do they ahve teammates worth trusting? If I'm Rudy, I'm not sure why I'd be expected to trust a Ben or DWill or Omri or Evans or JT to do something positive with the rock over myself.

I pretty much agree with all of this. And reading it, I had a thought. Perhaps our real problem is that most of our players have the basketball IQ of roadkill.

 

[VF21]

Neither. It was game one. By no means do I think that this game is representative of the season ahead. Everyone is jumping the gun.

Have you met us? We're Kings fans. Jumping the gun is who we are, it's what we do.

 

[Tetsujin]

Have you met us? We're Kings fans. Jumping the gun is who we are, it's what we do.

If gun jumping were an Olympic sport, the country of KingsFanslandia would take gold, silver, and bronze.

 

[mac]

It is certainly a combination of both. I fully agree that we don't have enough movement off the ball to get guys open. We don't have screens being set off the ball, we practically never see the defense having to chase one of our guys off the ball around screens and what not (although to be fair, if I were a defender I wouldn't bother putting much effort into chasing Ben McLemore). That said, it was also very clear that Rudy in particular forced a number of bad shots without moving the ball at all. Sometimes it was due to a lack of passing options, others it was just him deciding to go 1 on 1.

 

[ESP47]

It's both but we arguably have the most talented roster since Dalembert was here.

For me it starts with Malone. Were basically stuck with who we have right now so it's up to him to get the best out of them. Playing them out of position is not getting the best out of them. Landry is an undersized PF, so Malone gives him minutes at center. Evans is a slightly below average PF, so Malone gives him minutes at center. We have two guys not named Cousins who are the correct size for a center. Thompson and Hollins. Malone gives Thompson a few minutes at center and Hollins doesn't play until garbage time.

Play to your strengths. We have two strengths on this team. Post scoring and rebounding. Play to them. Don't play to what the other team does. Make that team deal with your strengths. Don't spend all night defending their strengths while weakening your team because you're so worried about what they're doing. Last night our team was literally on defense most of the night. We let Golden State match up to us with better players all game due to bad rotations. We rarely had any advantages out there.

We don't have the most talented team but our coach isn't putting our players into position to win. Put the guys in position to win and then we can point the finger at guys like Gay or McLemore or whoever the whipping boy is. But at the very least get them in and let them play their strengths so we can actually see if they just don't have enough talent.

I know it's the first game but we saw this stuff throughout preseason. I thought it was just Malone trying different lineups. I didn't think he was serious about undersized PF's playing C.

 

[VF21]

It's both but we arguably have the most talented roster since Dalembert was here....

Somehow, that just made me feel worse.

We only have two players who would be legitimate starters anywhere else in the league. NOBODY has qualms at the thought of facing our backcourt. In fact, they probably have trouble maintaining focus while they watch the game films. The only reason our frontcourt is even mentioned is because of Boogie...and perhaps to some extent Rudy.

You say "We don't have the most talented team but our coach isn't putting our players into position to win." That's like saying the Titanic sank because the deck chairs weren't in the right position.

As I said elsewhere, most of our team could find a home on the Island of Lost Toys. When you need five legitimate starters and you only have two, there aren't many options that can lead to wins. Some guys better step up and put forth more effort.

 

[kingsnation]

Everyone is jumping the gun.

A near-decade of the having to endure one of the worst Front Office's in all of the 4 major sports has the tendency to make a fan do that.

 

[KingMilz]

It's the players and it's always been the players, they lack intelligence and desire to win, you could put in any position as a coach and they would still fail cause they fail to meet those two attributes mentioned. Aside from Collison/Cuz and Reggie I didn't really see anyone else on the floor that made little plays to help us win. Malone is putting them into a position to succeed but Malone's problem is once the players stop doing what he wants there's no accountability, he let Rudy Gay chuck some of the worst shots I have ever seen and just kept him in the game. If Rudy Gay is going to play like JR Smith than there's no point even playing him in all honesty.

We have ran through like 7+ coaches or so at some point we have to realize that the players either don't care about winning or just can't seem to grasp a basic understanding of how to play winning basketball (how many times did we make the extra pass?). Malone has to start being ruthless and benching players for dumb plays and a lack of effort. There was less talented teams every year for the past 5 seasons or so that did better than we have.

How many times did the Warriors leak out on us and we didn't get back? That's on the players how can you not care to even get back at all? We need a ruthless no bs coach and if Malone can't be that well he's in for a short coaching stint here.

 

[lawlman91]

The main thing that is holding the Kings back is lack of movement without the ball. Set screen for your teammate, whether or not he has the ball! While it is good for players to follow basketball plays, the Kings should also develop an instinct of where to move without the ball. Nik Stauskas has this instinct, but cannot act on it because no one else is moving. When no one else is moving, Nik cannot move/cut to the basket because doing so would ruin the teams' spacing. This ruins the potential of players like McLemore.

There's this drill I made up that I'd really like to try on a kids team called the "ping-pong drill". The drill can be played 5v5 to 3v3, and two teams play regular basketball against one another. Points only count when a shot results from a "ping-pong pass", where one person receives the ball and then gives the ball up immediately to another teammate. There are no set plays to run in this drill -- it is all about moving on instinct. Hopefully, it will get the kids to think of what to do... even before getting the basketball. Maybe the Kings should try it out.

 

[pshn80]

Wasn't a very good start to the season. The quality of play, of team effectiveness was pretty bad for too long in the game. I hope this was as apparent to the players, coaches, FO and brass. Are theygoing to sit around and put up with this? Don't think so. So what will they do?

 

[Bricklayer]

How many times did the Warriors leak out on us and we didn't get back? That's on the players how can you not care to even get back at all? We need a ruthless no bs coach and if Malone can't be that well he's in for a short coaching stint here.

Actually our transition defense was a decided positive until the wind began to go out of our sails a bit.

 

[IfAt1st]

There's so much which goes into this aside from Rudy needs to pass more. When there's no system in place, whether it's Rudy or anyone else, there's few options, which results in forced shots, poor shots and more guys going 1v1, which is what we saw yesterday.

Is anyone really surprised that we keep hearing about positionless, up and down basketball, then our halfcourt sets don't look good? If people think Rudy and Cuz really can't understand or fit into a system, look at USA basketball. Much shorter period of time together yet they followed the system.
The underlying issue would be why don't they trust their teammates or our system and branching off that, do we have a system worth trusting and do they ahve teammates worth trusting?

You used the word "system" 5 times in this one post.

Let me rewind back just over 1 year ago, when the Kings were desperate for a coach to take over from Keith Smart - what available coach was the most known for establishing a "system"?
What coach was known for getting the most out of his players and making them work hard on the court?

 

[Sac.Kings]

This question is a double edged sword. We have both terrible players and they are also being used in the wrong way.

A motion offense is great, I have always loved it, but only when you have the correct personnel to run it. We have fragments of the correct personnel - Boogie, McLemore to an extent (if he could hit a shot), Nik, possibly even Rudy if he stops being selfish. No one else really, though Collison would suffice in a system like that. In this regard, it is a terrible use of our players. The roster we have now is set up for a half court sort of game rather than motion offense. This one is on the coach, who continues to underwhelm in my eyes for many reasons. One, he isn't putting the best starting line up out there. Ben needs to be benched, I could care less about his solid defense on Klay. If you cannot hit a single open shot of any kind, you have to go. Nik needs to start, period. Coach also needs to reign Rudy in, it is his duty to tell his players that they are not following his system, and that there will be repercussions. No one is held accountable, so of course Rudy is going to do what he loves most, jack up shots. Lastly, someone please tell Malone Reggie is not Chris Webber and we cannot run the offense through him or expect him to finish at the rim. I have no idea what gave Malone the idea Reggie is gifted in the post offensively because even my grandmother would be able to see in 2 or 3 trips down the court that he isn't. What he can do is rebound, and boy can he do that. Stick him with Cousins, at least that way we can pretty much own the glass every night.

Now comes the terrible players portion. Quite frankly we have terrible players. JT (our preseason MVP -- come on coach losing your mind already??) is not a starter - I am sick to my stomach of watching him complain to the ref after every single play, make boneheaded decisions, and generally not produce in any positive way. I am also tired of watching Ben brick shot after shot after shot, with a good game every 5-10 games, if that. A player like that cannot be a starter. It is just too much of a hole to the team. Carl Landry is not a terrible player, just overpaid and the questions regarding him are more about general fit with the team rather than talent. The rest are all bench fodder. Ray should get some more minutes as Sessions stunk it up last time.