Terrible Players, Or Terrible Use of our Players? - Redux

[Albatros]

I was one of the few actually praising some of the stuff I saw in pre-season, boy did they make me look stupid in that game.

I didn't even see a hint of a system, Cousins and Stauskas would do damage in the corner offense, as for the rest of them hmm. Landry has played that system in Houston, D-Will in Minny.

systems require discipline, patience, smarts. DC had a good game but I'm re-watching the first Q again and at times he doesn't wait for sets to form before setting off - patience.

JT always looks lost to me, I never get the feeling he truly knows where he should be at any time. You can also see players are not engaged off the ball, motion offense - where?!

 

[Chubbs]

I know it's the first game but we saw this stuff throughout preseason. I thought it was just Malone trying different lineups. I didn't think he was serious about undersized PF's playing C.

I thought the exact same thing, which is why I urged people to not take the preseason seriously. But Malone seems serious about the Twin Duplex lineup. I really thought it was just tinkering and experimenting, but that seems to be the offense. If I'm not mistaken, at one point it was Landry/Dwill at C/PF. What on earth? We've got a 7 footer sitting on the bench Malone. He's the tall one. Can't miss him.

It's a little scary that casual fans can see we have two legit starters and the front office thinks they can win now. They're seeing what they want to see. Or, worse, they're lying trying to sell junk on fans too smart for that. Or even worse that that, and this is my greatest fear, they think they have a solid team. They spent a year shipping everyone out, and this is what the result is. This is the win now team. Scary stuff that they so badly misjudged the talent level of this team. I don't know what Vivek will be saying a month in when we are a dreadful 4-15 or some such, but he's put himself in a spot where he will have to do something, make someone accountable. Or he will completely have to back off his proclamation of this season being judged by wins and losses (a vague statement to say the least). What I doubt we'll see is him admitting his front office and coaching staff don't know what they're doing, or that he completely misjudged this team. Guys like him, they're never wrong. So we know Vivek Ranadive isn't going to hold himself accountable, so what does he do? You can't say you expect results, not get them, then do nothing. And I'm pretty concerned that horrible start is coming for more reasons that just Game 1. So who is the fall guy? Does he go in the press and blame the players? the GM? Coach? How does he answer for this? Or does he go into hiding like the maloofs? He loves the spotlight too much for that. It's almost always the coach in these situations.

On another note, enough with the low bball IQ stuff. Please, it's beaten into the ground. Our players aren't any dumber that the rest of the league. They just aren't very good, combined with poor coaching/gm/owner trying to run a system that doesn't fit the "talent". Simply, the problem is both, as most people have said.

 

[Kingster]

Collison passed the ball, eight times for assists, only one turnover. Does Collison operate in a different universe than the rest of these guys? Is that why somehow he can pass and nobody else can? Heck, Collison isn't even a very good passer by NBA standards, more like a middle of the road passing point guard, and he's brand new to this team. (For the sake of argument, let's say there aren't guys with Collison's passing talent on the team. Well, they must really suck in their passing ability). So come on. Enough with the apologist crap about how these other guys are the unfortunate victims of Malone's system. If Collison can make it work, the rest obviously can too. Unlike the other guys on Day 1, Collison was a willing passer. Note that Malone talked about "unwillingness" to pass in his comments. He talked about the lack of "buy-in." These comments are damning, absolutely damning. Malone is not talking about technique; he's talking about whether guys literally want to run the offense.

Absolutely there is no question that it takes time to get this offense down and that it's bound to be problems of spacing and such at the beginning. But you've got to be a friggin moron to believe that Malone doesn't know that and that he doesn't know that spacing and motion are keys to the offense. You've got to be like the guy on the street corner begging for money who tells you he knows how you can get rich. Malone's comments indicate that the problems are deeper than technique.

I'll tell you the thing Malone left out in his postgame. Regarding what could be done to help this team get better on offense, he said they would go back doing the passing drills they had done in the preseason. Well, passing drills don't affect "willingness" and they don't affect "buy-in." Passing drills are effective for those who already buy-in and are willing. Presumably, there are going to be some frank discussions behind the the scenes to convey how important "willingness" and "buy-in" are to one's future on this team.

 

[Albatros]

I'll give it 5 games before we have our first "clear the air" "players only meeting" in which "some home truths" were said.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

I'm not a particularly patient person, but I think we clearly need to see a little bit more. Opening night was horrible, but as I mentioned in another thread, it was so horrible that we didn't even learn anything. The Kings shot 30%. How many more times will that happen this season? 1? 5?

I will say that McLemore is really hurting this starting unit more than his numbers would suggest. His numbers through game one and the preseason season haven't been great, but beyond that his failure to capitalize on open shots is hurting ball movement and team play.

DeMarcus Cousins made a beautiful pass as he was being double teamed to Ben in the corner and he missed it. You need shots created within the new offense to go in in order to give the players confidence in that offense. It's so demoralizing. You finally get an open look through a good pass and good spacing and good team play, but the shot doesn't fall. This happens once or twice a game with Ben, and how that looks hurts the team more than just the missed shot.

It's easy to promote ball movement when it's working. When Ben is in there, you're playing 4 vs 5 because you have one completely unreliable option, even when he's wide open. Stauskas has his own issues, but he's shown the ability to his shots when he's open.

 

[Chubbs]

No one is questioning whether Malone understands how things are supposed to work. The question is, can he teach it? This team is too talented to look so disorganized. Is it a playoff team? No, but they should be competitive most nights.

 

[kupman]

We are bad because we have very little talent on this team. We have 2 good players. They are not great - just good. After those 2, I think that we have an average to below average PG. After that we have a bunch of guys who are barely in the league and others who are only in the league because they play for the Kings i.e. no other team would have them.

If Phil Jackson or Pop decides to coach this team, we might see 35 wins.

 

[mac]

We are bad because we have very little talent on this team. We have 2 good players. They are not great - just good. After those 2, I think that we have an average to below average PG. After that we have a bunch of guys who are barely in the league and others who are only in the league because they play for the Kings i.e. no other team would have them.

If Phil Jackson or Pop decides to coach this team, we might see 35 wins.

Winning always cures everything. The Spurs are a very competitive team even without say Leonard or Splitter. They've had games missing 2 or all of the big 3 and still played very well. Patty Mills, Cory Joseph, Danny Green, Jeff Ayres, Aron Baynes, Matt Bonner, Belinelli ... these aren't exactly top draft picks themselves, and at one point or another in their careers weren't thought of as much either. Some were darn close to falling out of the league. The difference is in their FO putting together a team that fits with clear roles for each of these players to fill. Pop also is a HOF coach and devised a system to utilize the strengths of his core guys, then surrounded them with these role players who were willing to buy in to the system.

Our guys' talents in isolation aren't the main problem. It's the fit, the rotations and as many have mentioned, both the ability of the coach to devise a good system and the willingness of the players to buy into it.

 

[Bricklayer]

Collison passed the ball, eight times for assists, only one turnover. Does Collison operate in a different universe than the rest of these guys? Is that why somehow he can pass and nobody else can? Heck, Collison isn't even a very good passer by NBA standards, more like a middle of the road passing point guard, and he's brand new to this team. (For the sake of argument, let's say there aren't guys with Collison's passing talent on the team. Well, they must really suck in their passing ability). So come on. Enough with the apologist crap about how these other guys are the unfortunate victims of Malone's system. If Collison can make it work, the rest obviously can too. Unlike the other guys on Day 1, Collison was a willing passer. Note that Malone talked about "unwillingness" to pass in his comments. He talked about the lack of "buy-in." These comments are damning, absolutely damning. Malone is not talking about technique; he's talking about whether guys literally want to run the offense.

Absolutely there is no question that it takes time to get this offense down and that it's bound to be problems of spacing and such at the beginning. But you've got to be a friggin moron to believe that Malone doesn't know that and that he doesn't know that spacing and motion are keys to the offense. You've got to be like the guy on the street corner begging for money who tells you he knows how you can get rich. Malone's comments indicate that the problems are deeper than technique.

I'll tell you the thing Malone left out in his postgame. Regarding what could be done to help this team get better on offense, he said they would go back doing the passing drills they had done in the preseason. Well, passing drills don't affect "willingness" and they don't affect "buy-in." Passing drills are effective for those who already buy-in and are willing. Presumably, there are going to be some frank discussions behind the the scenes to convey how important "willingness" and "buy-in" are to one's future on this team.

Collison is a PG. As a rule a PG's assist numbers have little to do with a motion offense. In fact a motion offense may even suppress a PG's numbers by taking the ball out of his hands. Many guys who have led the league in assists or come close to it were playing in systems with relatively little motion in them (creating a dichotomy where the PG is high up on the assist charts, but the team as a whole is near the bottom because passing/creating is the PGs responsibility not the whole team's). One advantage of having a truly inventive passer at PG is that they can create passing angles and assist opportunities themselves off their dribble. Collison certainly was one of the few bright spots Wednesday, but its not because he was somehow running a one man motion offense. He was just being a smart unselfish PG even without a functioning system around him.

 

[Chubbs]

Don't ruin the narrative Brick.

 

[jcassio]

We are bad because we have very little talent on this team. We have 2 good players. They are not great - just good. After those 2, I think that we have an average to below average PG. After that we have a bunch of guys who are barely in the league and others who are only in the league because they play for the Kings i.e. no other team would have them.

If Phil Jackson or Pop decides to coach this team, we might see 35 wins.

Oh give me a break! Why would you even watch this team (nevermind root for them) if you think they're that bad and that hopeless?

 

[swisshh]

I didn't really see any off-ball screens and it's hard to get motion and passing lanes against a solid defense without that. What I saw was players trying to move around and basically outrun their guy, but GS is too quick to do that against. That won't work against most solid teams. You need something that creates separation initially and then motion off of that. You create the space and then exploit it. You don't just toss it to the high post and run around like poisoned ants.

 

[rainmaker]

Winning always cures everything. The Spurs are a very competitive team even without say Leonard or Splitter. They've had games missing 2 or all of the big 3 and still played very well. Patty Mills, Cory Joseph, Danny Green, Jeff Ayres, Aron Baynes, Matt Bonner, Belinelli ... these aren't exactly top draft picks themselves, and at one point or another in their careers weren't thought of as much either. Some were darn close to falling out of the league. The difference is in their FO putting together a team that fits with clear roles for each of these players to fill. Pop also is a HOF coach and devised a system to utilize the strengths of his core guys, then surrounded them with these role players who were willing to buy in to the system.

Our guys' talents in isolation aren't the main problem. It's the fit, the rotations and as many have mentioned, both the ability of the coach to devise a good system and the willingness of the players to buy into it.

What's interesting about all this motion offense crap and the Spurs being an example, is that what Pop did in actuality is change his system to his talent a couple years ago. The system SA plays now is different than 3-4 years ago, and that system was different than what they ran back in 99-02. Meanwhile, we have a roster which is not built for a motion offense, or really even up and down basketball, yet multiple entities within our organization seem intent on trying to force-feed our player into that type of a system.

We're basically expecting Ben to be our Belinelli/Green and for Reggie to be our Diaw, and while the Spurs do go small at times, they have Splitter as a key part of their rotation and pair him with Duncan a fair amount, while we're running out Carl Landry and Reggie Evans as backup centers. It's just a mess. Not only do we not have the personnel for a system like this but we're not even showing we can do a half-ass imitation. That's what's most worrying, the misuse of the players we do have. And while there seems to be a concentration on Rudy's selfishness, I supposed so stalwarts like Ben/JT/DWill/Landry get more shots, what I'm far more concerned about is that we're simply not using Cuz and Rudy as best we should. Starts at the top. If we can't use our top two players correctly, don't expect something different when looking further down the roster.

 

[kupman]

Oh give me a break! Why would you even watch this team (nevermind root for them) if you think they're that bad and that hopeless?

Because I am a Kings fan .

 

[Chubbs]

Beating a dead horse, but we just don't have the personnel. Rudy can't pass that well, willing or not. He's a finisher. Ben can't pass. JT can't pass. Landry is one of the all time black holes, Dwill, and on and on. The bulk of our rotation is poorly suited for this. Evans and Landry are supposed to be the Boogie/Cwebb/Vlade role and direct traffic on the second team? That's not their game! It never will be. Get the right players or just play the way it best suits the players you do have, not the players you want them to be.

 

[swisshh]

Actually, I just watched Collison's interview and he talked a lot about the lack of proper screening. So it seems players are aware.

 

[206Fan]

We are bad because we have very little talent on this team. We have 2 good players. They are not great - just good. After those 2, I think that we have an average to below average PG. After that we have a bunch of guys who are barely in the league and others who are only in the league because they play for the Kings i.e. no other team would have them.

If Phil Jackson or Pop decides to coach this team, we might see 35 wins.

Woah, what? If we had Jackson or Pop, our players would be much more disciplined and would buy into team concept. One of our MAIN problems were Cuz and Gay opting not to pass the ball when they were in trouble.

If we had those two as headcoaches, our roster could be a .500 team. Coaching is a huge part of basketball.

 

[206Fan]

Beating a dead horse, but we just don't have the personnel. Rudy can't pass that well, willing or not. He's a finisher. Ben can't pass. JT can't pass. Landry is one of the all time black holes, Dwill, and on and on. The bulk of our rotation is poorly suited for this. Evans and Landry are supposed to be the Boogie/Cwebb/Vlade role and direct traffic on the second team? That's not their game! It never will be. Get the right players or just play the way it best suits the players you do have, not the players you want them to be.

Landry isn't a black hole. He was arguably our best player or 2nd best vs the Warriors.

Those players can pass. If our coaches nail it into their heads, they will start passing. They need to pass. If you can't pass, you shouldn't be in the NBA. It's not about the ability, but it's about attitude and determination.

 

[randymoss1881]

Some of you guys should watch what JVG/Barkley said about systems. You could have the best system in the world but you still need players. The triangle is all nice and dandy but when you have Shaq/Kobe jordan/pippen off course it will work. They brought up how Phil's elite assistance took other jobs and ran the triangle. Rambis in MN and I forget who else they didn't succeed now they said is it because they can't teach the triangle or is it the players??
And people can't say Phil is the mastermind behind it a coach invented the triangle and brought it to Phil so Phil learned it too so is Phil a better teacher than everyone else's?? I'll tell you one thing if Rambis took a job with Kobe/Shaq. Ran the triangle he'd still have a job and a ring.

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

Actually our transition defense was a decided positive until the wind began to go out of our sails a bit.

JT upped his trade value with some great transition blocks and defensive plays.

 

[Bricklayer]

Landry isn't a black hole. He was arguably our best player or 2nd best vs the Warriors.

Those players can pass. If our coaches nail it into their heads, they will start passing. They need to pass. If you can't pass, you shouldn't be in the NBA. It's not about the ability, but it's about attitude and determination.

Landry has a career averaged of 0.7ast per game in 24.0min per game. That's 1.4 per 48. Barely 1.0 per 36.

 

[Bricklayer]

Here is a highly amusing, and troubling stat.

Ok, so to add statistical color to Landry's well known blackholeness, I ran this search on bbreference.com:

Show me all players in NBA history who are not centers (I restricted out the Cs and F/Cs) who have averaged 20min/gm over their careers and had less than a 6.0 Ast%.

In the entire history of the NBA there have been 30 guys who fit that description. And here is the punchline: 3 of the 30 are on our current roster (Carl, Ben and Derrick). And you wonder why we can't run a motion offense?

Here's the whole list: non-centers, 20+min/gm, 6.0 or less Ast% (i.e. some of the least passiest little men in history)
Jerome Williams 6.0
Ryan Anderson 6.0
Nick Weatherspoon 6.0
Cliff Levingston 5.9
Tom Hawkins 5.9
Mikael Pietrus 5.9
Trevor Booker 5.9
Eddie Grifftih 5.9
Tim Hardaway Jr. 5.9
Kenny McIntosh 5.9
Danny Fortson 5.8
Luc Mbah a Moute 5.8
Al Tucker 5.8
Ben McLemore 5.8
Jonas Jerebko 5.6
Ed Davis 5.5
Brandon Bass 5.4
Udonis Haslem 5.3
Kentavious Caldwell Pope 5.3
Carl Landry 5.2
Terry Catledge 5.2
Tristan Thompson 5.2
Yi Jianlin 5.2
Maurice Harkless 5.1
Alan Henderson 5.0
Kyle Singler 5.0
Kenny Walkers 4.7
Tyrone Hill 4.6
Derrick Williams 4.5
Serge Ibaka 3.0 (!)

Maybe the real reason for getting Derrick Williams was to make Carl feel better for being the 11th worst assisting major minute non-center in NBA history by acquiring the 2nd worst. 3 of the 20 worst on one roster and in the rotation.

 

[Prince_XY]

I know it's the first game but we saw this stuff throughout preseason. I thought it was just Malone trying different lineups. I didn't think he was serious about undersized PF's playing C.

Those who were saying they are not too worried about how Malone was screwing on his combinations and he was just experimenting during the pre-season games, what can you say now?

It is becoming clear, Malone is full of BS ideas that doe not work in the NBA.

He has no idea of what to do with his player's strengths and weaknesses.

Malone is another sweet talker just like Keith Smart.

We have a sucky coach!

 

[Glenn]

I will make no comments about the players, the FO or anything about the Kings based on one game in this year. This is tiring.

 

[Prince_XY]

I thought the exact same thing, which is why I urged people to not take the preseason seriously. But Malone seems serious about the Twin Duplex lineup. I really thought it was just tinkering and experimenting, but that seems to be the offense. If I'm not mistaken, at one point it was Landry/Dwill at C/PF. What on earth? We've got a 7 footer sitting on the bench Malone. He's the tall one. Can't miss him.

It is Keith Smart's kind of coaching once again for our team.

The coach is simply NOT an NBA level coach.

That is the biggest problem.

 

[Chubbs]

Landry isn't a black hole. He was arguably our best player or 2nd best vs the Warriors.

Those players can pass. If our coaches nail it into their heads, they will start passing. They need to pass. If you can't pass, you shouldn't be in the NBA. It's not about the ability, but it's about attitude and determination.

I like the rest of what you said, but Landry really is one the worst passers, assist wise, in the NBA. Always has been.

And then I keep reading. Yeah, I thought Landry was one of the worst ever. I remember looking it up. Landry does not get assists. He just doesn't. Not unless it's an accident. Turns out we have three of the worst passers in NBA history. Wow. That's worse than I thought, although anyone watching can tell there's a problem.

Rudy can't be much better either. And that's the thing, the front office intentionally acquired all these guys supposedly to fit this offense. Why these guys? They clearly don't fit.

 

[Chubbs]

Those who were saying they are not too worried about how Malone was screwing on his combinations and he was just experimenting during the pre-season games, what can you say now?

It is becoming clear, Malone is full of BS ideas that doe not work in the NBA.

He has no idea of what to do with his player's strengths and weaknesses.

Malone is another sweet talker just like Keith Smart.

We have a sucky coach!

I've said plenty thank you very much. Starting with I was wrong.