Let's talk about Rajon Rondo
- Thread starter hrdboild
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I would not be surprised if the FO tried to make a deal where Detroit would give us THEIR 1st rounder in return for Derrick Williams and maybe even Landry... Also would not be surprised if we offered a package of Ben+2018 2nd round pick for Rondo..
Judging from what the teams actually got for each player makes me infer that there weren't many good offers on the table..
Judging from what the teams actually got for each player makes me infer that there weren't many good offers on the table..
Yes, I think the spacing would be fine. I also don't think teams need three+ 3pt threats on the floor to have an efficient offense. I also didn't mind the pace at which this team played under Coach Malone. I also don't mind if we score less than 90 pts per game if the other team is held to less than 90. I know Golden State is the prom queen this year and everyone seems to be falling over themselves to recreate their Steph Curry/Klay Thompson backcourt but in general I think the amount of attention paid to the topic of 3pt shooting on this message board in the last 2 years in particular is absurd and disproportionate with its relative significance to winning basketball.
Hard to say.
If Carlisle is as big of a controlling, dictating ass as has been revealed many times over his career, then I wouldn't hold it against Rondo anymore than I hold it against Demarcus that he and Westphal didn't either.
With these elite athletes and personalities, it really only matters:
* whether they can still play.
and
* whether Rondo would get along with Demarcus.
Remember, less than a year ago Demarcus said on the Grantland interview with Bill Simmons that Rondo was the best point guard in the NBA.
If we could pick up Rondo less than a year after him saying that, and for reasonable money (there's little way he's getting $10 mil/yr), I'd run it by Demarcus and see what HE thinks.
If Carlisle is as big of a controlling, dictating ass as has been revealed many times over his career, then I wouldn't hold it against Rondo anymore than I hold it against Demarcus that he and Westphal didn't either.
With these elite athletes and personalities, it really only matters:
* whether they can still play.
and
* whether Rondo would get along with Demarcus.
Remember, less than a year ago Demarcus said on the Grantland interview with Bill Simmons that Rondo was the best point guard in the NBA.
If we could pick up Rondo less than a year after him saying that, and for reasonable money (there's little way he's getting $10 mil/yr), I'd run it by Demarcus and see what HE thinks.
Thank you, this is a well-reasoned response. The knee jerk reaction is "nobody likes Rondo, he's a team cancer". Both DeMarcus and Rudy know Rondo personally. I only really care what they think about him. If they all get along, I don't see it being an issue. Part of the problem I think is that Rondo is both super-competitive and wants to do things his way. That's why he's clashed with coaches. Some people are not comfortable taking orders until they know exactly why you want them to do it and you give them a chance to give their feedback (DeMarcus is another one of those guys). If everyone is on the same page, a player with that level of passion is an asset. If the coach goes on a "respect my authority" ego trip, it's a problem. I don't think he was comfortable waiting out a potentially lengthy rebuild in Boston and I don't think he ever clicked with Rick Carlisle. The big question for me is if the injuries have knocked him down to being an average player. If that's the case, we're better off just moving forward with Collison as the starter.
So you think the Mav's should fire Carlisle in order to retain Rondo. You certainly don't mean that. Carlisle is highly respected coach that last I checked has a ring. Don't get me started on Westphal, who I didn't like from the get go. Totally different situation completely. You say Rondo wants to do thngs his way. So how long do you think that attitude will last with Karl?
I was just pointing out that our own franchise player has a coach killer reputation as well, whether it's deserved or not. Do I want a guy like Cousins on my team? Absolutely! With Westphal, he and Tyreke Evans got along just fine, but his coaching technique did not work with Cousins. And in that instance the player was more important to the team than the coach, so they did what was necessary to keep Cousins. I don't think Rondo is important enough to Dallas for them to go out of their way to keep him happy. They're obviously not going to bring him back. Rick Carlisle is a good coach, but he's not a guy that everyone will get along with. George Karl can be stubborn too but he likes to give his players offensive freedom and that's not who Carlisle is. Rondo not getting along with Carlisle doesn't mean every team should blacklist him.
I do expect Rondo to butt heads with Karl at times, and I expect the same from DeMarcus. All three of those guys are strong personalities. For some teams, players questioning the coach like that could be a fatal problem. I don't think it would be for every team in much the same way that some families work out all of their issues by shouting and others only shout at each other in extreme circumstances. Shouting can actually be a healthier way to go about solving your problems than everyone silently resenting each other. The key here is that everyone respects each other and they understand what the common goal is. I think Rondo respects Carlisle, he just didn't like being ignored. Doc Rivers allowed and maybe even encouraged his players to challenge him and take control of their own team. I would imagine the tone of the locker-room in Dallas is a lot different. Remember that Rondo came to Dallas with his own championship ring. He's played in 2 NBA Finals and 16 total playoff series. He communicates on a regular basis with multiple future hall-of-famer ex-teammates. If he thinks you're doing something wrong, he's not going to be shy about that.
But beyond just that, Dallas already has an established hierarchy. As the new guy in town, his ideas were viewed with suspicion. And it's easy for me to see why Rondo would grow irritated with being told how to run an offense by a new coach who wanted to call plays from the sideline while Monta Ellis simultaneously is given a green light to chuck away with impunity. I watched Dallas this year, they just weren't a good team. Their first, second, and third option in any offensive set is a jumpshot and that's a problem. Marc Cuban is going to run that team into the ground trying to prolong Dirk's career with band aid solutions when a complete rebuild is what's needed. The lockerroom hierarchy in Sacramento is completely different. If Cousins is on your side, you're fine. And Rondo won't even come here unless Cousins is on his side. With George Karl, I honestly don't think he cares all that much if his offense relies more on three point shooting, isolation plays, motion principles, or dribble drive. He wants the players to play with energy, outwork the other team, take good shots, and rebound the ball. Before the injury, all of those qualities defined Rondo's game. That's why this is fairly simple to me -- if Rondo is able to make a full recovery, if health isn't an issue long-term, he's still an ideal choice for us at PG.
I do expect Rondo to butt heads with Karl at times, and I expect the same from DeMarcus. All three of those guys are strong personalities. For some teams, players questioning the coach like that could be a fatal problem. I don't think it would be for every team in much the same way that some families work out all of their issues by shouting and others only shout at each other in extreme circumstances. Shouting can actually be a healthier way to go about solving your problems than everyone silently resenting each other. The key here is that everyone respects each other and they understand what the common goal is. I think Rondo respects Carlisle, he just didn't like being ignored. Doc Rivers allowed and maybe even encouraged his players to challenge him and take control of their own team. I would imagine the tone of the locker-room in Dallas is a lot different. Remember that Rondo came to Dallas with his own championship ring. He's played in 2 NBA Finals and 16 total playoff series. He communicates on a regular basis with multiple future hall-of-famer ex-teammates. If he thinks you're doing something wrong, he's not going to be shy about that.
But beyond just that, Dallas already has an established hierarchy. As the new guy in town, his ideas were viewed with suspicion. And it's easy for me to see why Rondo would grow irritated with being told how to run an offense by a new coach who wanted to call plays from the sideline while Monta Ellis simultaneously is given a green light to chuck away with impunity. I watched Dallas this year, they just weren't a good team. Their first, second, and third option in any offensive set is a jumpshot and that's a problem. Marc Cuban is going to run that team into the ground trying to prolong Dirk's career with band aid solutions when a complete rebuild is what's needed. The lockerroom hierarchy in Sacramento is completely different. If Cousins is on your side, you're fine. And Rondo won't even come here unless Cousins is on his side. With George Karl, I honestly don't think he cares all that much if his offense relies more on three point shooting, isolation plays, motion principles, or dribble drive. He wants the players to play with energy, outwork the other team, take good shots, and rebound the ball. Before the injury, all of those qualities defined Rondo's game. That's why this is fairly simple to me -- if Rondo is able to make a full recovery, if health isn't an issue long-term, he's still an ideal choice for us at PG.
Rondo has come off looking like a prima donna as a result of his time in Dallas. Is it his fault? Who the heck knows, he has developed a reputation while he was coached by Doc Rivers and Brad Stevens. So are we to believe Danny Ainge traded away the best PG in the NBA? These things create a lot of questions.
If it is up to me I would rather stay with players with fewer questions if at all possible.
If it is up to me I would rather stay with players with fewer questions if at all possible.
He may be still the best distributor in the game with awesome floor Vision and a neck for making the right decisions. He has shown, that he can still get to the basket.
My only real concern with Rondo is his defense. A few years ago he was a very hard nosed defender. Right now I dont see this anymore.
And i dont like the amount of time he holds the ball.
My only real concern with Rondo is his defense. A few years ago he was a very hard nosed defender. Right now I dont see this anymore.
And i dont like the amount of time he holds the ball.
K
Sucks Rondo has turned (maybe he always was) into someone who can't really play at the level he could before.
Maybe he just needs a change or scenery, I'd like to see him get back to his best but man he cost the Mavericks a lot this year and some going into the future fairly dog move imo.
Maybe he just needs a change or scenery, I'd like to see him get back to his best but man he cost the Mavericks a lot this year and some going into the future fairly dog move imo.
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It's a little different than that when it comes to guys like Rondo.
Rondo is able to kill the spacing for a good shooting team, it's not that he is not a good 3-point shooter- it's that he is an awful one, to the pint where opponent teams just go help from his man with no worries.
He also rarely pentrates the paint anymore, likely because he is afraid to get fouled when his free throw shooting (39.7%!!!) is as bad as DeAndre and Drummond.
Right now he is a guy that have to hold the ball in his hands to make any impact, otherwise he is just a burden and someone the opposing defense doesn't have to guard. and that alone can kill the spacing for your team.
Rondo is able to kill the spacing for a good shooting team, it's not that he is not a good 3-point shooter- it's that he is an awful one, to the pint where opponent teams just go help from his man with no worries.
He also rarely pentrates the paint anymore, likely because he is afraid to get fouled when his free throw shooting (39.7%!!!) is as bad as DeAndre and Drummond.
Right now he is a guy that have to hold the ball in his hands to make any impact, otherwise he is just a burden and someone the opposing defense doesn't have to guard. and that alone can kill the spacing for your team.
His career FT% is 61%. That's over 9 seasons. Now that's bad, but not abysmal like this year. What's more likely... Rondo had a fluke bad year or he completely forgot how to shoot free throws? Rudy Gay shot a Rondo-esque 31% from three for us last year but career numbers say he's a better shooter than that. This year he's up to 36%. It happens.
Also, players who can't shoot threes reliably (Rondo shot 25% for the first 22 games this year and 35% for the last 46 so he's more inconsistent than awful) aren't completely useless off the ball. You have to be more creative than that offensively. You can run Rondo off a screen and get him the ball 15 feet out with his defender out of position. San Antonio does that all the time with Tony Parker. With his vision, he's in good position to set up somebody else from there. He's also one of the few guards who's going to pull down offensive rebounds for you, creating extra possessions. When Cousins isolates in the high or low post, Rondo can cut to the basket and draw a foul or get Cousins an open layup.
If you recall, the offense didn't fall apart with Andre Miller in the game for us and he's even worse as a shooter than Rondo. I think you're underestimating the positive impact that a uniquely gifted playmaker can have.
Also, players who can't shoot threes reliably (Rondo shot 25% for the first 22 games this year and 35% for the last 46 so he's more inconsistent than awful) aren't completely useless off the ball. You have to be more creative than that offensively. You can run Rondo off a screen and get him the ball 15 feet out with his defender out of position. San Antonio does that all the time with Tony Parker. With his vision, he's in good position to set up somebody else from there. He's also one of the few guards who's going to pull down offensive rebounds for you, creating extra possessions. When Cousins isolates in the high or low post, Rondo can cut to the basket and draw a foul or get Cousins an open layup.
If you recall, the offense didn't fall apart with Andre Miller in the game for us and he's even worse as a shooter than Rondo. I think you're underestimating the positive impact that a uniquely gifted playmaker can have.
Andre Miller shoots over than 50% from the field and makes his free throws- and it's much harder to claim a bad FT shooting year, and it's not like it's random- Rondo looked like garbage ever since his ACL injury. he just not the same player. about his % from 3, you could see how teams just leave him aline out there and he can't do nothing, it's actually kind of sad.
Look at Dallas- in the 21 games they started with Chandler-Dirk-Parsons-Ellis-Nelson their record was 14-7 (66.7%), if you only switch from Jameer Nelson (not what you'll call a star PG) to Rondo- you'll get 17-14 (54.8%) that's the drop off for the team.
If you look at lineups you'll see that Rondo's 3 man combinations are all negative, and hold the 15-20 place (last place). 2 man combinations his only one where the team is winning is with Dirk (the 15th best combo) and than he'll hold the last 3.
Dallas is a much worse team when he is on the floor after the trade ORtg difference is- (-1.3) when he is on the floor and +5.2 when he is off it.
Even if you look at Boston before he was traded- the Olynyk-Sullinger-Green-Bradley-Rondo starting lineup record was 3-9 (25%), and the Zeller-Sullinger-Green-Bradley-Rondo one was 5-4 (55.6%) put together that's 38% winning with him.
The starting five of Zeller-Bass-Turner-Bradley-Smart is 18-9 (66.7%).
And actually when you look at his on/off numbers you'll see he made Boston worse- ORtg difference is- (-2.5) with him on the floor and +0.5 when he is off.
IT is +7.5 while he is on the court and (-1.2) when he is off just to give you an example, Rookie Marcus Smart is +3.5 when he is on and -2.9 when he is off.
Right now Rondo is a bad basketball player, even without considering all his other problems like health issues, being a "cancer" for Dallas and admitting to not playing defense for 2 years.
I wouldn't touch him.
Look at Dallas- in the 21 games they started with Chandler-Dirk-Parsons-Ellis-Nelson their record was 14-7 (66.7%), if you only switch from Jameer Nelson (not what you'll call a star PG) to Rondo- you'll get 17-14 (54.8%) that's the drop off for the team.
If you look at lineups you'll see that Rondo's 3 man combinations are all negative, and hold the 15-20 place (last place). 2 man combinations his only one where the team is winning is with Dirk (the 15th best combo) and than he'll hold the last 3.
Dallas is a much worse team when he is on the floor after the trade ORtg difference is- (-1.3) when he is on the floor and +5.2 when he is off it.
Even if you look at Boston before he was traded- the Olynyk-Sullinger-Green-Bradley-Rondo starting lineup record was 3-9 (25%), and the Zeller-Sullinger-Green-Bradley-Rondo one was 5-4 (55.6%) put together that's 38% winning with him.
The starting five of Zeller-Bass-Turner-Bradley-Smart is 18-9 (66.7%).
And actually when you look at his on/off numbers you'll see he made Boston worse- ORtg difference is- (-2.5) with him on the floor and +0.5 when he is off.
IT is +7.5 while he is on the court and (-1.2) when he is off just to give you an example, Rookie Marcus Smart is +3.5 when he is on and -2.9 when he is off.
Right now Rondo is a bad basketball player, even without considering all his other problems like health issues, being a "cancer" for Dallas and admitting to not playing defense for 2 years.
I wouldn't touch him.
This is where I'm coming from. Rudy Gay and Rondo are best friends. Rondo had been trying to get Rudy Gay to play on the Celtics for years. Demarcus told Bill Simmons this summer that Rondo is the best PG in the NBA, no question. Rondo was quoted this season saying Demarcus is the best young player in the NBA. George Karl is a hall of fame coach who loves to let his PGs improvise. PDA already tried to get Rondo once, possibly at Demarcus' request. This Dallas fiasco removed one of his biggest suitors from the running as Cuban won't touch him now. The Lakers black hole of a season might have removed them from Rondo's wishlist. And Rondo has sufficiently torched his value to the point where we can now afford him without having to find a taker for Thompson or Landry. Shaq has a partial ownership stake in the team and was once teammates with Rondo. Vlade probably talks to Webber from time to time and Chris loves Rondo. It might be time to mentally prepare yourself for the possibility of Rondo in a King's uniform.
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