GOSSIP - About owners, FO, coaching staff, scouts and Kings things in general

Analytics isn't a gun. Analytics is a pencil necked squire telling a master swordsman that if he just shifts balance here and twists his arm thus, he'll deliver a killing blow. Except of course the true master swordsmen have been shifting and twisting on their own for decades. The squire might be right, he might be wrong. But he's only providing gee whiz insight to fellow abacus geeks who also have never picked up a sword.

And no, the excuses for Morey are kinda pathetic. When your guru doesn't act the way you expect, you waste everybody's time trying to invent excuses for him. Frankly some of his moves have looked a little desperate, as until the breakthrough against the Clippers they hadn't in fact been winning that much. But he's been old school GMing for a long spell now, and frankly that's a good thing. That's why he's still employed. Talent wins.

As an aside, the 3pt point shooting confluence last year at the top of the playoff rankings was, until proven otherwise, a 1yr blip. Top playoff teams are not surprisingly good at most things, but there has never been anything like that type of correlation with 3pt shooting in the past.

Annual 3pt Made Rankings of last 4 playoff teams:
2014-15: #1/#2/#3/#5 = Avg: 2.8
2013-14: #12/#14/#15/#22 = Avg: 15.8
2012-13: #3/#7/#16/#30 = Avg: 14.0
2011-12: #2/#12/#20/#22 = Avg: 14.0
2010-11: #8/#11/#15/#18 = Avg: 13.0

Now obviously I know that according to metricheads the game of basketball suddenly has radically changed in the past 10 months because, Golden State and poopoo. But in general, if you ignore this magical 12 month transformation of a 70yr old league you would be hard pressed to argue for some magical chucking correlation trend.
The NBA has changed in it's regard for the three point shot. And it has nothing to do with GS, they just exemplify a steady trend. How much it correlates to winning is up for debate the overall value of the three point shot throughout the league is not.

http://www.besttickets.com/blog/nba-shooting/

I'm no "metrichead", but people who talk about analytics likes it's system sent to corrupt the game rather then a tool seem misguided. Lastly Morey and Golden State make easy villains around these parts while the Spurs successful relationship with analytics is ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative that analytics are somehow a novel trend.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2015/02/23/spurs-among-those-all-in-with-analytics/
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
who says he is one of the best?

Who says that being "one of the best" is terribly relevant in that field?

He wrote a book, helped start a ****ed up movement that has resulted in more people who don't know anything thinking they do and spewing ignorance across the basketball horizon than anything that came before it. But is he anything special as an analytics guy? Is there such a thing as a special analytics guy? Because a number of the top guys are basically self-loving bullpoopoo artists making up cute formulas and then pitching them to the masses as be alls.

When I go deep into NBA.com or SpurtsVu or bballref.com statistical anlyses, am I practicing "analytics"? If I'm not, exactly what additional magic doyou think a "top analytics guy" is going to be able to provide? Meanwhile Capt. Fact can tell you almsot anythign you want to know about the salary cap rules...because he looks them up on the internet. What possible additiinal magic can a "cap guru" provide beyond knowing the rules and applying them judiciously? Too much is made of these positions sometimes. They are necessary, but hardly so obscure as they are made out.
If that's the case, then why hire one at all? Why doesn't Vlade just go with basketball instincts and scouting, the old fashioned way...before the NBA even heard of "Analytic Gurus".
 
I'm not here to disagree, i dig James, but what the heck did I do?
From my memory of the offseason (I could be wrong), you have not been a good source of information about the Kings.
You retweet other people, and post cryptic tweets which don't give the fanbase 1% of what you know.

You tell me - what Kings information have you broke first in the past year?
TIA.

edit - I may well have missed your sharing of new Kings news this offseason, since I don't read you directly on Twitter (horrible horrible interface and method of communication) and am dependent on reading the Tweets people post here of yours.
 
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what I'm trying to figure out is...if Dean Oliver is one of the best analytic guys out there, why get rid of him?
It could simply be an issue of trust and chemistry.

Even if he is a good analytics guy, he's still just an analytics guy. Replaceable with another guy who is good with numbers. Didn't we trust a group of college kids to help with that process last year? Let that sink in a bit.
 
I didn't mean that the only thing old school can do his say can he shoot or not.

Breaking down video or seeing things in person is still a great tool that should be utilized, but analytics is another tool that can tell you things- they are best one you can use both of them.
in regard to hustle, there is an hustle statistic which was just intruduced by sportsview.

Now while old school have it pros there are also cons the major one that should be taken into notice is that even professional old-school guys can't analyze all the games needed- and even in games they see there is a good chance of missing something.
Now of course analytics aren't perfect- but for example if analytics will tell you a detail about a guy (let's say a weakness) and you can go with that and check the video to see what the problem is you are in far better shape.
What some people aren't grasping here is that there isn't just one way to do your job as a gm and think you should ignore any other views/ways of thinking. Don't view analytics as the enemy, view it as a tool. There are many factors in building a team. It's easy to just say choose the best player. How do you choose them? Do you choose best right now or factor potential? What about ceiling and floor? Can you afford the player? Or if you can, how will it hinder picking up future players? What about all the legalities and ins and outs of the cba?

The real story wasn't if vlade got along with his analytics guy or not. It's the accusation that he doesn't believe in them at all. Few here, if any, believed that vlade didn't want to use analytics, we just questioned why you would totally ignore that aspect as a tool? The argument was never what's better, old school or analytics? It was vlade can't be foolish enough to totally ignore it can he? (Many on Twitter confirm he isn't and we will hire a new analytics guy) To be a good gm, you have to at least look at all the info given to you and consider if it's valuable or not. No one is making you use it to base your final decision.
 
Vlade wants everyone on the same page, it's been his mantra. It's somewhat telling that Ham used just that phrase in one of his tweets. As mentioned, Vlade will just get a guy to do the job who IS on the same page to do the same job, and yet I bet we can get another two or three pages of analytic debate out of it easy. October can't come fast enough!
 
A "strong push" with what.

They have absolutely nothing to offer.
... I think the deal was:

DMC for the following:

- One future, top 40 protected second round draft pick
- One four-leaf clover
- Three of Red Auerbach's partially smoked cigars
- a case of Sam Adam's Boston Lager
- an 8x10 signed glossy photo of Bill Russell


That was the deal; and according to the National Sports Media, the Kings are IDIOTS for not taking it.
 
... I think the deal was:

DMC for the following:

- One future, top 40 protected second round draft pick
- One four-leaf clover
- Three of Red Auerbach's partially smoked cigars
- a case of Sam Adam's Boston Lager
- an 8x10 signed glossy photo of Bill Russell


That was the deal; and according to the National Sports Media, the Kings are IDIOTS for not taking it.
There are many reasons why I wouldn't trade Cousins anyway, but I specifically wouldn't trade him to Boston because Bill Simmons is obsessed with getting Cousins, and anything that makes Bill Simmons mad makes me happy.
 
There are many reasons why I wouldn't trade Cousins anyway, but I specifically wouldn't trade him to Boston because Bill Simmons is obsessed with getting Cousins, and anything that makes Bill Simmons mad makes me happy.
I don't know... those used cigars from Red are mighty appealing... If Goe and Galvin were still in charge, we could have made that deal! I just know it!
 
Sportando is now reporting that part of the reason Vlade dismissed oliver is because he was giving info to Vivek instead of just him, and that Vivek is requiring Vlade to make a new hire.

Probably more distortiond of the truth but looks like the media spin is going to start again.
 
At the end of the day it's just more knowledge- you can decide how to use it, ignoring it is flat out stupid.
I like this very much.

IMO, people who cannot swallow analytics (or even just try to use it) in todays basketball are just flat out stupid. They refuse to change their old ways, because they deemed analytics as an additional work for their brain. Laziness if I may call it, or flat out old-fart arrogance to whatever is something new. I remember my Dad being so anti-computer. He said computer just adds more work for him and was something that will complicate his life some more. I've excused him because of his age and he's got all the reasons to resist new ways. I don't think Vlade is that old and passive OR lazy. He is being maligned by media people in this case. Let's see if he hires another person to replace our main guy on the analytics department.

"Analytics, whatever you want to call it. I think it’s all B.S. Defense wins in the NBA" - Mike Malone 12/6/14.

Unbelievable at this age when Popovic, Kerr, and almost all other coaches in the NBA use analytics one way or another now.

 
From my memory of the offseason (I could be wrong), you have not been a good source of information about the Kings.
You retweet other people, and post cryptic tweets which don't give the fanbase 1% of what you know.

You tell me - what Kings information have you broke first in the past year?
TIA.

edit - I may well have missed your sharing of new Kings news this offseason, since I don't read you directly on Twitter (horrible horrible interface and method of communication) and am dependent on reading the Tweets people post here of yours.
Well-

(And there's no way of doing this without sounding lame)

-technically first to confirm Oliver gone

- first to refute Levien would be a part of the org

- Peja being offered a spot (I think in Vegas, could be wrong)

- Mbah a Moute's shoulder

- Pushed the Cousins/Karl flap early (not speaking)

- Cousins' camp trade request

-Kings NOT offering Ellis a contract

And I think I was pretty much at or near the front on the Karl hire to begin with, and that's documented on this forum in the DEFCON thread.

Tyreke not being offered a deal, Isaiah not being offered a deal, but I think you asked for THIS offseason.

Listen. Local media is rad, and I look to Ham, Bruski, Sam, and a few others who do fantastic jobs and are far better reporters/journalists than me, of which I'm not.

But dang, I do break a thing or two in the midst of cryptic tweets, which I use to the best of my abilities to point peeps in the right direction (when I can't directly share info I have.)
 
Well-

(And there's no way of doing this without sounding lame)

-technically first to confirm Oliver gone

- first to refute Levien would be a part of the org

- Peja being offered a spot (I think in Vegas, could be wrong)

- Mbah a Moute's shoulder

- Pushed the Cousins/Karl flap early (not speaking)

- Cousins' camp trade request

-Kings NOT offering Ellis a contract

And I think I was pretty much at or near the front on the Karl hire to begin with, and that's documented on this forum in the DEFCON thread.

Tyreke not being offered a deal, Isaiah not being offered a deal, but I think you asked for THIS offseason.

Listen. Local media is rad, and I look to Ham, Bruski, Sam, and a few others who do fantastic jobs and are far better reporters/journalists than me, of which I'm not.

But dang, I do break a thing or two in the midst of cryptic tweets, which I use to the best of my abilities to point peeps in the right direction (when I can't directly share info I have.)
Lame :)
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Sportando is now reporting that part of the reason Vlade dismissed oliver is because he was giving info to Vivek instead of just him, and that Vivek is requiring Vlade to make a new hire.

Probably more distortiond of the truth but looks like the media spin is going to start again.

Possible translation: Oliver had developed a habit of second guessing Vlade's moves and sending his reports/justifications for second guessing him directly to Vivek. Valde signs somebody, the next day an email arrives to Vivek with an attachment entitled, A Statistical Argument Why Vlade Just ****ed Up Again, by Dean Oliver, author of Basketball on Paper.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well-

(And there's no way of doing this without sounding lame)

-technically first to confirm Oliver gone

- first to refute Levien would be a part of the org

- Peja being offered a spot (I think in Vegas, could be wrong)

- Mbah a Moute's shoulder

- Pushed the Cousins/Karl flap early (not speaking)

- Cousins' camp trade request

-Kings NOT offering Ellis a contract

And I think I was pretty much at or near the front on the Karl hire to begin with, and that's documented on this forum in the DEFCON thread.

Tyreke not being offered a deal, Isaiah not being offered a deal, but I think you asked for THIS offseason.

Listen. Local media is rad, and I look to Ham, Bruski, Sam, and a few others who do fantastic jobs and are far better reporters/journalists than me, of which I'm not.

But dang, I do break a thing or two in the midst of cryptic tweets, which I use to the best of my abilities to point peeps in the right direction (when I can't directly share info I have.)



 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
From my memory of the offseason (I could be wrong), you have not been a good source of information about the Kings.
You retweet other people, and post cryptic tweets which don't give the fanbase 1% of what you know.

You tell me - what Kings information have you broke first in the past year?
TIA.

edit - I may well have missed your sharing of new Kings news this offseason, since I don't read you directly on Twitter (horrible horrible interface and method of communication) and am dependent on reading the Tweets people post here of yours.
IMHO, you are wrong.

And, if you want to dump on Dave, why not do it in the KHTK thread? Thanks ever so.
 
Oliver was not trustworthy: HE'S OUT.

Vlade is not anti-analytics. Vlade is not closed minded.

Getting Peja here is not "croneyism". He's here because he is trustworthy and can attract great players.

We had rats on the ship and they're all being forced out now as the water rises, or whatever, but you get my point.

Greatest barriers to success are not a lack of statistical knowledge, good grief. It is weasels with their own self serving agenda either leaking info to media or going behind people's backs. We just had a bit of clean up work to do from the mess we had going on, and it doesn't matter who created it, because Vivek is now consistently showing the willingness to trust Vlade completely to do his job. WE HAVE A LEADER NOW. WE CAN ALL RELAX.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
We'll have to see on the Peja thing. I can easily believe that Vlade, having experienced months of the den of snakes our front office had become would like nothing more than to have Peja around as a trusted lieutenant. However I also can't help but remember Vivek's rueful comment that one of the things he had learned about his first attempt at a front office was that the NBA was much more about cronyism than his tech world was. And then Vlade comes along and makes a move that looks like the same thing. Hopefully not, but it could be a bit of a misplay by Vlade. Whatever the last guy was doing, do the opposite.
 
Sportando is now reporting that part of the reason Vlade dismissed oliver is because he was giving info to Vivek instead of just him
Good for Vlade. When you have an employee that goes over your head on issues (normally this is done to usurp power from you or marginalize your decisions), you should fire them; they are trying to get rid of you or thwart your plans. If this is true, good riddance to Oliver.
 
We'll have to see on the Peja thing. I can easily believe that Vlade, having experienced months of the den of snakes our front office had become would like nothing more than to have Peja around as a trusted lieutenant. However I also can't help but remember Vivek's rueful comment that one of the things he had learned about his first attempt at a front office was that the NBA was much more about cronyism than his tech world was. And then Vlade comes along and makes a move that looks like the same thing. Hopefully not, but it could be a bit of a misplay by Vlade. Whatever the last guy was doing, do the opposite.
From my perspective, bringing in Peja to work with Vlade is no different than bringing in guys DMC likes to work around him. Vlade is the big guy; if he wants to his buddy hanging around and that is going to make him happy and stick around longer, (not to mention Peja might be hanging around the building), why not? Additionally, forgive me if I am wrong, but don't Peja and Vlade have the exact same "NBA Front Office" experience going into this? None?
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
On the surface, I don't see anything wrong with adding another marquee NBA name who has an affinity for the city of Sacramento. It makes it easier to speak from the heart when you know so much about the city and its people. Vlade and Peja can speak to the positives of Sacramento much better than anyone else in recent history.

After that point, I am a little concerned that reaching out to Peja could also be interpreted as Vlade not wanting to cast a wider net, but it could also lead to Peja getting a FO position somewhere else in the league down the road. We all have to start somewhere, and, as has been mentioned, getting a foot in the door often requires knowing someone in the league. I guess it depends on what his role will be. Buddy to hang around during shootarounds and give some pointers to the kids? I'm cool with that.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
We'll have to see on the Peja thing. I can easily believe that Vlade, having experienced months of the den of snakes our front office had become would like nothing more than to have Peja around as a trusted lieutenant. However I also can't help but remember Vivek's rueful comment that one of the things he had learned about his first attempt at a front office was that the NBA was much more about cronyism than his tech world was. And then Vlade comes along and makes a move that looks like the same thing. Hopefully not, but it could be a bit of a misplay by Vlade. Whatever the last guy was doing, do the opposite.
When a new coach is hired, usually during the off-season, its expected that he'll clean house and bring in his own assistants. No on calls it cronyism. A new head coach is going to want people around him that he trusts, and that know what he expects. I don't see anything different about the hiring of a new GM, or president of operations. What ever title you want to give the position. Vivek's problem from the start, was that he did everything backwards. He went ahead and did the hiring that a GM usually does, and then hired the GM. He didn't do it just once, he did it twice. First with PDA, and then with Vlade. Of course in Vlade's case, he didn't have a lot of choice.

Obviously PDA wouldn't have hired Malone, since he did everything in his power to get him fired. None of that drama would have occurred had Vivek hired PDA first. It doesn't matter that we liked Malone, my point is we never would have had the chance to like or dislike him if Vivek had followed the norm. Then he went and hired Vlade in essentially the same role, but with a different title. And as Bricky stated, Vlade inherited a den of snakes, some hired by PDA, and some hired by Vivek. So what was he to do. He was the true outsider.

The answer of course is start weeding out who is loyal and whose not. So far it looks like Mike Bratz is the going to be the only holdover when the smoke clears. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but of course the national media, is going to feed off any little thing that looks out of place in sacramento. I'm sure that Vlade knows this, will apply a little more sunscreen, and once done, probably take a well deserved vacation. As for hiring Peja. Yes, he's someone that Vlade trusts, so can you blame him? You get tired of looking over your shoulder all the time, never knowing where the next blow is coming from. I don't care what Peja's position will be. Hell, make him director of international scouting. Does it matter? So we have to buy one more roll around chair for the conference room. Big deal! As long as it brings stability to the franchise, I'm on board.

We, and by we, I'm speaking in general, can criticize Vlade. We can dissect his moves and hires. He''s fair game because of the position he holds. My advice to him, is to do it his way. When you get your chance to lead, you have to have a plan, and that plan should emphasis your agenda, whatever that may be. If your going to be successful or if your going to fail, you want to do it your way. It's hard, because believe me, your going to get a lot of advice from so called experienced people, and sometimes, it's bad advice. Orson Wells made Citizen Kane. It is lauded by some as the best movie of all time. When he directed that movie, he had no experience as a director, and he decided to go against the advice of every known expert in Hollywood. At the end of the day, you don't want to hear Frank Sinatra singing, I did his way!
 
Well-

(And there's no way of doing this without sounding lame)

-technically first to confirm Oliver gone

- first to refute Levien would be a part of the org

- Peja being offered a spot (I think in Vegas, could be wrong)

- Mbah a Moute's shoulder

- Pushed the Cousins/Karl flap early (not speaking)

- Cousins' camp trade request

-Kings NOT offering Ellis a contract
I like you, Dave, but -
A year, and that's all you've got?

Every one of those (except Cousins-related), is simple clarification of non-controversial details, almost like a secretary would correct from notes of a meeting.
The non-Cousins stuff is pro-FO, filtering their water.
It's pretty embarrassing you are proud of this body of "work".

You are in an absurdly-privileged position, with deep levels of access, paid to talk 3+ hours a day, and that's what you hang your professional hat on?

What I can't figure out with you is why would your only actual news the past year involve Cousins and exposing the friction and conflict there?
Is it because you:
* want it addressed and fixed, because he is necessary for a successful Kings team?
or
* are like your boy Grant Napear, who wants Cousins gone at all costs because of his personal vendetta with him proven by 5 years of Napear's embarrassing and unprofessional behavior WRT Cousins?

You are so entrenched, you should really give up your facade of fandom. It's starting to look bad on you.
 
I like you, Dave, but -
A year, and that's all you've got?

Every one of those (except Cousins-related), is simple clarification of non-controversial details, almost like a secretary would correct from notes of a meeting.
The non-Cousins stuff is pro-FO, filtering their water.
It's pretty embarrassing you are proud of this body of "work".

You are in an absurdly-privileged position, with deep levels of access, paid to talk 3+ hours a day, and that's what you hang your professional hat on?

What I can't figure out with you is why would your only actual news the past year involve Cousins and exposing the friction and conflict there?
Is it because you:
* want it addressed and fixed, because he is necessary for a successful Kings team?
or
* are like your boy Grant Napear, who wants Cousins gone at all costs because of his personal vendetta with him proven by 5 years of Napear's embarrassing and unprofessional behavior WRT Cousins?

You are so entrenched, you should really give up your facade of fandom. It's starting to look bad on you.
That's just not right. Just because you know something (or don't) doesn't mean you CAN or SHOULD say something. Not that this is the same situation but where my wife works and where I work had business arrangements. There were times I knew things that I did not tell her partly because I didn't want to have to worry about it slipping around the wrong person. Was that wrong? I had my reasons and they were just that, my reasons. he can have his whatever they are. I appreciate whatever info he wants to share for whatever reason he has.
 
I like you, Dave, but -
A year, and that's all you've got?

Every one of those (except Cousins-related), is simple clarification of non-controversial details, almost like a secretary would correct from notes of a meeting.
The non-Cousins stuff is pro-FO, filtering their water.
It's pretty embarrassing you are proud of this body of "work".

You are in an absurdly-privileged position, with deep levels of access, paid to talk 3+ hours a day, and that's what you hang your professional hat on?

What I can't figure out with you is why would your only actual news the past year involve Cousins and exposing the friction and conflict there?
Is it because you:
* want it addressed and fixed, because he is necessary for a successful Kings team?
or
* are like your boy Grant Napear, who wants Cousins gone at all costs because of his personal vendetta with him proven by 5 years of Napear's embarrassing and unprofessional behavior WRT Cousins?

You are so entrenched, you should really give up your facade of fandom. It's starting to look bad on you.
Yikes. Really? I don't always agree with Dave's approach but I think this is uncalled for.