Has Nik been playing better then Ben lately?

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#31
It's absolutely not a no brainer. How about we keep both of our young guard's confidence high while going into the offseason? Just a thought...
More likely how about we make a choice and go with it?

We need a vet back there. And then there's still room for a kid to pair with the vet. But two kids who might play well...or might not play well, who have good games, who have invisible games...that just leaves a terrible source of potential weakness every night, We need a pre-injury Wes Matthews type guy. Every night he's there. Doesn't have to be a star. Just every night.

So make a choice here and go with it. It was always going to end that way anyway. I can't think of a single situation in the league where two lottery picks come in back to back at the same situation and are both retained long term. And with Cuz entering his prime, Rudy moving toward the back of his, an aging HOF coach...we just can't risk having a Bottom 5 in the league position anymore. Offseason shopping list = steady SG to pair with whichever kid, and then starting PF. A bench shotblocker would be nice too.
 
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#32
More likely how about we make a choice and go with it?

We need a vet back there. And then there's still room for a kid to pair with the vet. But two kids who might play well...or might not play well, who have good games, who have invisible games...that just leaves a terrible source of potential weakness every night, We need a pre-injury Wes Matthews type guy. Every night he's there. Doesn't have to be a star. Just every night.

So make a choice here and go with it. It was always going to end that way anyway. I can't think of a single situation in the league where two lottery picks come in back to back at the same situation and are both retained long term. And with Cuz entering his prime, Rudy moving toward the back of his, an again HOF coach...we just can't risk having a Bottom 5 in the league position anymore. Offseason shopping list = steady SG to pair with whichever kid, and then starting PF. A bench shotblocker would be nice too.
There's no need to make a choice at this point in time. I would rather both of them keep their confidence up and go into the offseason feeling good about their development. Hopefully, it'll only motivate them to want to get better this offseason.

Just because Stauskas isn't starting it doesn't mean he's going to be discouraged. However, you run the risk of that happening to Ben if you replace him in the starting unit with Stauskas. Let the guys ride out the season in their current roles (you can obviously continue to give Stauskas a good chunk of minutes to keep his confidence up), but again, there's really no need to switch them in the rotation right now.

If anything, we're just now starting to see Stauskas play well against backup NBA rotations. Let's play it safe and keep him in that same part of the rotation to continue building that confidence.

Now I agree with you that I would prefer to trade one of them if it meant that we were to sign a solid SG to come in and give us consistent production:

McLemore, Landry, & Pick Protection Removal for Gibson
Sign Middleton, Wes Matthews, Danny Green, Afflalo, etc.

PG - Collison/McCallum/A Miller (vet min)
SG - D. Green (35 mil - 3 years)/Stauskas/W. Ellington (vet min)
SF - Gay/Singler (Room Exception)/Babbit (vet min)
PF - Gibson/Thompson/Moreland
C - Cousins/Cauley-Stein/Aldrich (vet min)

However, if it doesn't work out like that, I want to set these two guys up for success next year so we can get the most we can out of the SG position.
 
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#33
There's no need to make a choice at this point in time. I would rather both of them keep their confidence up and go into the offseason feeling good about their development. Hopefully, it'll only motivate them to want to get better this offseason.

Just because Stauskas isn't starting it doesn't mean he's going to be discouraged. However, you run the risk of that happening to Ben if you replace him in the starting unit with Stauskas. Let the guys ride out the season in their current roles (you can obviously continue to give Stauskas a good chunk of minutes to keep his confidence up), but again, there's really no need to switch them in the rotation right now.

If anything, we're just now starting to see Stauskas play well against backup NBA rotations. Let's play it safe and keep him in that same part of the rotation to continue building that confidence.

Now I agree with you that I would prefer to trade one of them if it meant that we were to sign a solid SG to come in and give us consistent production:

McLemore, Landry, & Pick Protection Removal for Gibson
Sign Middleton, Wes Matthews, Danny Green, Afflalo, etc.

PG - Collison/McCallum/A Miller (vet min)
SG - D. Green (35 mil - 3 years)/Stauskas/W. Ellington (vet min)
SF - Gay/Singler (Room Exception)/Babbit (vet min)
PF - Gibson/Thompson/Moreland
C - Cousins/Cauley-Stein/Aldrich (vet min)

However, if it doesn't work out like that, I want to set these two guys up for success next year so we can get the most we can out of the SG position.
Right direction but way too much for Gibson. Plus you removed protection but still drafted.
 
#36
giving up the farm for gibson. we might get lucky and get WCS in the draft. if that is the case, gibson isn't needed. i think he's overrated anyway.
Giving up the farm? An inconsistent SG who's ceiling is most likely a 3 and D player, a 1st round pick that will likely land around 12-16, and an overpaid Carl Landry who has been withering away on our bench for a PF who would be an excellent fit next to Cousins (Smart defender, good shotblocker, athletic, good jump shooter, roleplayer mentality, and overall savvy vet). Not to mention his contract is very similar to Landry's contract (in amount and duration).

We need to start winning now. That requires bringing in veteran players to produce consistently around Cousins and Gay. I'm very high on Cauley-Stein as well, but he will be a rookie. Why not bring in Gibson to assure that your team will get consistent production at PF?

Both Gibson and Thompson would be under contract for another two years. I'm sure in two year's time, Cauley-Stein will be more than ready to take over as 'the man' next to Cousins for the long haul. This two year buffer would put Cauley-Stein in a position where he would virtually have no pressure. We wouldn't have to worry about rushing him and ruining his confidence.
 
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#37
It doesn't matter as much as we think it does,
This is the pageant part of the season, and any improvement Nik has had lately is potentially illusory. (It means moire in his case because of ROOKIE).

People are ignoring how he's been getting torched on defense when teams (rarely) isolate him still, so yeah some shots are falling, but I'm not going to get too excited about it, or pencil him in as a reliable back-up SG yet.
Nik is actually decent on defense..especially when he gets in front of his man. I tried to do a highlight of Nik this year up to Sunday's game(forgot which team it was), and I reviewed a lot of games and I was surprised to see how good he was at anticipating the ball. Anytime he was in front of his defender, he did a tremendous job challenging the shot. There aren't a lot of guards who can actually fly by Stauskas without a screen. A lot of it are SGs overpowering him, but Nik has always done a nice job in extending his arms and contesting each shot.

I don't think my highlight/profile video of Nik is going to happen.. I made half of it and found out that my music and game footage wouldn't work because of copyrights.. I also wouldn't want to get any sites in trouble by posting my vid there. Short lived dream of video editing, but Nik is actually pretty decent on defense.
He just needs to get stronger.
 
#38
I've been pretty set on keeping both Nik and Ben, like most of the guys we draft I have a bigger soft spot for them.

But then I got a good look at the 3 and D rankings, and have been thinking about aquiring Green/Middleton more aggressively this offseason.



We could aquire Green in FA or do a sign and trade for Middleton, both are possibilities.

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for waiting 2 or 3 years for our guys to develop, our FO on the other hand.. I guess we'll see.

Here's the rest of the 3 and D breakdowns.








Courtesy of reddit,http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/30dqla/calculating_the_best_3_and_d_players_in_the_nba/
I think if you get a 3&D SG, Ben is the one to be out the door. Nik offers a different skill set
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#40
Call me crazy:

Collison
McLemore
Stauskas
Gay
Cousins

(assuming kids reach potential) might not be the worst thing we've put forth in a while. Yes, there are serious defensive flaws. Yes, a better PF than JT might render this moot, but, it's a fluid team on offense, and if (if) Ben and Sauce play up to potential, it wouldn't be as shameful on defense.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#44
Do you guys see Gay starting at the 4 next season?
To me unless we trade for a Taj Gibson (who imo will be on the trading block since Mirotic at times have been playing out of his mind) or another really good player I think Gay is the starting PF and it could be best for him as well.

Barring injury it's great we got the next 10 games or so to test it out it's sort of worked so far but need a much bigger sample.
 
#45
To me unless we trade for a Taj Gibson (who imo will be on the trading block since Mirotic at times have been playing out of his mind) or antoher really good player I think Gay is the starting PF and it could be best for him as well.
I think we need to give it more time. He hasn't had to go up against any of the real tests at pf the last 4 games.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#46
I think we need to give it more time. He hasn't had to go up against any of the real tests at pf the last 4 games.
Markief Morris is pretty damn good scorer @the PF spot and guys like Nene and Gortat are not push overs but I agree more time is needed for sure.

At this point in the season it's worth a try
 
#47
I think Nik will end up being the more valuable player because of the variety of things he can do on offense. Defense is terrible right now and he has to hit the gym hard, but I think Ben will (hopefully) be traded for an upgrade at the 4, or the 3 if Rudy stays at PF. Just too inconsistent. Nik is finally playing better.

P.S. Watching the Kentucky slaughter right now and that double block was vicious. Cauley-Stein for me please!
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#48
Markief Morris is pretty damn good scorer @the PF spot and guys like Nene and Gortat are not push overs but I agree more time is needed for sure.

At this point in the season it's worth a try
Markief of course not only killed us, but put Rudy in foul trouble. And Markieff is an insect as far as WC PFs go (to be fair at least half his damage was against DWill).
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#50
I'm never going to support Gay starting at PF no matter how many games we win. Why because we will never contend playing him there. I'm all for Gibson trade as well.
You're making an assumption that I don't think should be made, at least quite yet.

Just because Rudy is playing at the 4 now is no guarantee he'll do so in the future. At this point in time, however, I would much, much, much, much rather see Rudy there than Carl Landry.
 
#51
Nik is actually decent on defense..especially when he gets in front of his man. I tried to do a highlight of Nik this year up to Sunday's game(forgot which team it was), and I reviewed a lot of games and I was surprised to see how good he was at anticipating the ball. Anytime he was in front of his defender, he did a tremendous job challenging the shot. There aren't a lot of guards who can actually fly by Stauskas without a screen. A lot of it are SGs overpowering him, but Nik has always done a nice job in extending his arms and contesting each shot.

I don't think my highlight/profile video of Nik is going to happen.. I made half of it and found out that my music and game footage wouldn't work because of copyrights.. I also wouldn't want to get any sites in trouble by posting my vid there. Short lived dream of video editing, but Nik is actually pretty decent on defense.
He just needs to get stronger.
The issue with evaluating his defense this season is we really don't have a lot of tape to look at. He's usually on the floor for 6-8 minute bursts at a time and only gets a few chances to show what he can do defensively. So if Jamal Crawford drops 3 buckets on him, it looks really bad on Nik because he's not on the floor very much.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#52
I'm never going to support Gay starting at PF no matter how many games we win. Why because we will never contend playing him there. I'm all for Gibson trade as well.
Gibson would get killed by the other Western Conference PF. I can just see ZBO whipping him all over the place...
 
#53
Giving up the farm? An inconsistent SG who's ceiling is most likely a 3 and D player, a 1st round pick that will likely land around 12-16, and an overpaid Carl Landry who has been withering away on our bench for a PF who would be an excellent fit next to Cousins (Smart defender, good shotblocker, athletic, good jump shooter, roleplayer mentality, and overall savvy vet). Not to mention his contract is very similar to Landry's contract (in amount and duration).

We need to start winning now. That requires bringing in veteran players to produce consistently around Cousins and Gay. I'm very high on Cauley-Stein as well, but he will be a rookie. Why not bring in Gibson to assure that your team will get consistent production at PF?

Both Gibson and Thompson would be under contract for another two years. I'm sure in two year's time, Cauley-Stein will be more than ready to take over as 'the man' next to Cousins for the long haul. This two year buffer would put Cauley-Stein in a position where he would virtually have no pressure. We wouldn't have to worry about rushing him and ruining his confidence.
if you look at the roster, we don't have many assets. gerbil likes to collect 2nd rd picks + trade exceptions which is practically useless.

ben is a system player. put him on the spurs or any team that runs a structured offense and he'll shine. unlike nik, he doesn't have adequate ball handling to get his own shot. a good 3&d player is valuable. ben can be that player as we got a small sample of it in the beginning of the year.

i don't see gibson as the savior as you see him. i'd rather ride it out w/ thompson and WCS. players need to get actual playing time to be any good. having gibson/thompson in front of him isn't going to help that cause.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#54
Meh to small ball. Rudy is a 3.

I like the idea of bringing Taj in, he would be excellent next to Cuz. People throw the idea of a stretch 4 around, which wouldnt be the end of the world (be great for spacing) if said stretch 4 can also play defense and block shots. So...Basically....Ibaka. And we aren't getting him.

As to the question posed by the thread: I still think Ben is better, but Nik is catching up. I'm with the folks calling for a vet SG who fits the 3 and D mold. Ben is still a bigger trade chip than Nik due to his higher ceiling, but I think Nik has a much higher chance of actually realizing his potential on the basketball court. The kid his smarts, size, skills, and we are starting to see some swagger. He'll always be limited defensively due to his average athleticism, but I think he has the BBIQ to be a good team defender, if not a individual stopper.

I think these final games will really determine what we do over the summer at the 2. Heck, maybe they both become more consistent under Karl and we end up going forward with both of them. Stranger things have happened.

I'm rooting for Hot Sauce. If he lives up to his potential, it'll take some of the sting out of our FO passing on Payton.
 
#55
if you look at the roster, we don't have many assets. gerbil likes to collect 2nd rd picks + trade exceptions which is practically useless.

ben is a system player. put him on the spurs or any team that runs a structured offense and he'll shine. unlike nik, he doesn't have adequate ball handling to get his own shot. a good 3&d player is valuable. ben can be that player as we got a small sample of it in the beginning of the year.

i don't see gibson as the savior as you see him. i'd rather ride it out w/ thompson and WCS. players need to get actual playing time to be any good. having gibson/thompson in front of him isn't going to help that cause.
I think Ben is as good as Harrison Barnes..(if people still consider him good). You put replace Ben with Barnes and you wouldn't even notice a difference with that team.

I think Ben is a type of player who needs almost all of his shots set for him. I don't think that's a bad thing, but it does limit his role in the NBA.

The main reason why I believe GSW brought Iggy off the bench was primarily because of Barnes. They had Barnes lead the bench unit last year and it was just sad.. they believe they had a talented and young player in Barnes. You put him next to 2 All-Star elite players in the NBA and of course he's going to look much better than someone on a losing team..ala Ben.


Ben is a valuable asset to any team. At the very least, he's a spot up 3pt shooter. At his best, he's a scoring 3pt machine who dunks from everywhere on the court.
 
#56
if you look at the roster, we don't have many assets. gerbil likes to collect 2nd rd picks + trade exceptions which is practically useless.
Right, so let's trade them for veterans who can help us win now because we know what will happen if we're not competitive very soon, or do we need to go over that again?

ben is a system player. put him on the spurs or any team that runs a structured offense and he'll shine.
Unfortunately, we are not the Spurs. Doesn't mean we can't develop a structured system where McLemore can "shine," but how shiny would he be really?

a good 3&d player is valuable. ben can be that player as we got a small sample of it in the beginning of the year.
Right, so let's go sign one this year in FA. So instead of risking it to see if McLemore becomes a consistent 3 and D player next year, let's try and get one we know who can already do that. McLemore is too inconsistent right now to have a significant role on a competitive team. If we were in a position to sit around and develop players, sure, let's hold on to him and see what happens. Unfortunately, we need to start winning now. Coddling young talent is 2nd priority to winning at this point.

i don't see gibson as the savior as you see him.
Please reference where I said Gibson is the savior? No, really I'm interested in where I said those words. I don't know why anyone would think a roleplaying PF would be a savior of a team. That term is reserved for guys like, oh I don't know, Cousins perhaps?

i'd rather ride it out w/ thompson and WCS. players need to get actual playing time to be any good. having gibson/thompson in front of him isn't going to help that cause.
That's hogwash. Players develop all the time behind the scenes. Why do players even bother practicing on their own time when all you need is playing time to be any good. I guess we found the secret ingredient to become a good basketball player! Just give them playing time!! Or perhaps the reason players get minutes is because they show that they have what it takes in practice? Make them play their way into the rotation. Give them incentive to work hard and improve their game.

Besides, he will get some playing time behind Gibson & Thompson. Take a look at our minute distribution among our big men this year:

Cousins - 1,856 mins
Thompson - 1,696 mins
Landry - 1007 mins
Evans - 703 mins
Hollins - 363 mins
Moreland - 2 mins

Considering Cauley-Stein would be our 4th big off the bench, I'm going to give him all minutes that belonged to Evans, Hollins, and Moreland. That's a total of 1,068 minutes on the season through 71 games (1,068 minutes / 71 games = 15 minutes per game). 15 minutes per game to a rookie big is more than enough (and my calculation doesn't even account for all of the minutes Williams & Gay have spent at the 4 this year). Rookie bigs often times take longer to adjust to the NBA and you have to be patient with them. I'm not sure why we would bank on a rookie big to be our third guy off the bench while we're trying to be competitive. It's too risky. Too much is at stake.

Now, he might turn out to be a very good big, be able to adapt right away, and give us excellent production. At that point, you can look to trade Thompson away to create some space on your roster to give him more minutes, but that's a good problem to have.



If Cousins was still on his rookie deal and we had guys like McCallum, McLemore, Stauskas, & Cauley-Stein on the team, then yeah let's hold onto them and try to develop them. We can be more patient with our guys and try to develop them into good players, but again, the clock is ticking on Cousins. We need to start being competitive if we want to have any shot at keeping him. With that in mind, would you rather risk it on unproven, inconsistent, young players, or would you rather have savvy vets who you can rely on game-in and game-out? I know which side I'm on. Do you?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#57
Gibson would get killed by the other Western Conference PF. I can just see ZBO whipping him all over the place...
I think this might be true, but the problem is this: ANYBODY acceptable to a run n gun coach is probably going to get killed by the full sized PFs out West. George Karl last ran a full sized PF back when Y2K still had people spooked. So if you're going to be stuck with a 6'8" guy, you might as well go find a tough rugged guy who prides himself on defense. Cuz needs some more dawgs around him. I too would fear him turning out to be 11-6 in the West while getting beat up in the post and on the boards however.
 
#58
Gibson would get killed by the other Western Conference PF. I can just see ZBO whipping him all over the place...
You're going to be hard pressed to find a PF who can man-up Randolph in the post. Luckily, I think we have one of the few already (Thompson). Randolph's just an ox down there, but Gibson is a good post defender. What he lacks in strength against Randolph he makes up for it with good fundamentals, quickness, and hops.

I think you'll be surprised to know their stats when they match up against each other (9 times).

Randolph:
33 MPG / .397 FG% / .659 FT% / 14.6 PPG / 11.8 RPG / 1.4 APG / 0.7 SPG / 0.2 BPG / 2.1 TOPG

Gibson:
27 MPG / .484 FG% / .857 FT% / 8.2 PPG / 5.7 RPG / 0.4 APG / 0.6 SPG / 2.2 BPG / 1.3 TOPG

Now, this doesn't mean they were always on the floor at the same time, but Gibson has never really been backing up a good defensive PF (Boozer, Gasol), and the fact that Memphis has M. Gasol means Noah would mainly be matched up on him. With all that in mind, I would think Gibson has a knack for disrupting Randolph.

And just looking at their last few matchups, Randolph has been absolutely horrid: 5-13, 4-15, 6-20, 4-14, 1-5. That's 30% from the floor! The only time Randolph played well against Gibson was very early on in Gibson's career.

So maybe we shouldn't be so quick to say "Gibson would get killed by the other Western Conference PF. I can just see ZBO whipping him all over the place..." With a good team defense in place and Gibson at the 4, we should be strong on that side of the ball.
 
#59
I think this might be true, but the problem is this: ANYBODY acceptable to a run n gun coach is probably going to get killed by the full sized PFs out West. George Karl last ran a full sized PF back when Y2K still had people spooked. So if you're going to be stuck with a 6'8" guy, you might as well go find a tough rugged guy who prides himself on defense. Cuz needs some more dawgs around him. I too would fear him turning out to be 11-6 in the West while getting beat up in the post and on the boards however.
So are we referring to players' heights without shoes now? I think I keep missing those memos that let me know when we switch, or perhaps it has something to do with trying to make your point sound better than it is.

This isn't just directed at you, Brick, because I see many people on this board do it. If we're going to call Gibson a 6'8" PF (who measured 6'8.5" w/0 shoes) then we should call Cousins a 6'9" C (who measured 6'9.5" w/o shoes). For the sake of consistency, can we choose one universal measurement and stick with it? I'm tired of seeing people try and curve measurements to fit their argument.

Now I understand players still have the ability to grow after the combine, but there's really no good way of knowing without taking someone's word for it, eyeballing it, looking up their height on a generic site like Yahoo, etc. and even those sources are sketchy at best. The only accurate measurement we have is the combine measurement. A lot of money gets poured into this event to know the exact measurements of these players. When teams are making decisions that have millions of dollars on the line, they better be using data that is accurate; otherwise,they're just being reckless.
 
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#60
Rudy is essentially a stretch 4( 36% from 3's), I'm not sure on the idea of absolutely needing a traditional stretch 4 as a full time starter. Rudy is proving he can fit in that role when needed. Rudy at the 4 can work on a lot of NBA nights except when you go up against Randolph, Griffin, Aldridge, Duncan, Davis, in which case it is nice to have JT you can throw in there, he has proven a specialist against top PF's.

Casspi and Williams are also big enough to fit that role, one of them will be back next season, perhaps both if they can be had cheap(can't see anyone throwing huge money at either). The big question is how much of a shakeup will the roster have over the summer? Will we keep our pick and add another young talent? Will the FO look for a veteran SG or trust in Ben/Nik combo. Will they look to upgrade PG(Lawson rumor has been out there)?

My ideal would be to draft Cauly Stein and eventually slide Cousins to PF(Stein is strong enough to guard C's and fast enough to guard PF's, that is the key, he and Cousins can cross up matchups on any given night. Then we still have Rudy to play stretch 4 if/when needed. Cousins, WCS, JT is a heck of a defensive frontcourt trio. Please give us Stein(if we don't get a top 3 pick). Its a no brainer really.