What's this position-less basketball? (split)

#1
nba 3.0 position-less basketball :)
I have to admit that whole position-less basketball thing does not sit well with me. What does it mean and where has it been successful? I think it is important for the top 8 or 9 rotation players to have clearly defined roles. Guys get the reps in and learn to play together as they work in those roles. Rick Adelman was good at that and often to a fault. Rick would sometimes play a guy too many minutes. Rick's guys knew their roles.

I mean a Big is a Big. If he has range it is OK to step outside and knock down a shot from time to time to keep defenses honest. But lets take Cousins for example, you want Big DMC in the paint scoring in the face of all the flashy PF's in the West. Stauskas will be able to shoot, dish and sometimes drive to the hoop. But most of the time you want Nik playing the perimeter where he is most effective. This does not sound like position-less basketball to me.

Perhaps I don't understand what Position-less basketball means. My fear is that it is a re-hashed version of Nellie-ball.

KB

PS Sign Moreland already!
 
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#2
Perhaps I don't understand what Position-less basketball means. My fear is that it is a re-hashed version of Nellie-ball.

KB
It's not really all that big of a deal, since we've seen many players do it in recent times. It just wasn't referred to as "positionless". All it is, is having players who can play either guard position, or any wing slot, or either forward position, or the 4/5. Two examples are Darren Collison who played both guard positions at different times for the Clippers....and Jason Thompson who played both the 4 and 5 for us.

There's plenty of examples around the league of this right now. Vivek is just "rebranding" it with a different description. Part of marketing is calling things different names
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#3
I have to admit that whole position-less basketball thing does not sit well with me. What does it mean and where has it been successful?

Perhaps I don't understand what Position-less basketball means. My fear is that it is a re-hashed version of Nellie-ball.
position-less basketball is nellie ball to me.
I can think of essentially two examples of relatively "position-less" basketball

(1) The actual Princeton offense, as played at Princeton under Pete Carrill.
(2) The Miami Heat with LeBron James.

In the first case you need 5 players who can all handle the ball, pass and shoot. Any given player can be posting up, cutting, passing, dribbling, shooting etc. It relied on efficiency and execution to combat size and athleticism. That and slowing the pace way down. When Adelman adapted principles for the Kings he still had the two bigs primarily posting up, he still used the pick and roll, two man game and occasionally isolation plays. It was a large part of the offense and not the entire offense. Reason being - on the NBA level you still had to play to the strengths of your roster. Vlade and Webber could occasionally hit threes, but they were far more effective near the basket. And the reverse was true of Bibby and Peja. It was a beautiful, ball sharing offense that was very efficient, but it wasn't position less.

In the second case LeBron is the hub of everything that happens and can be playing off the ball, as the main ballhandler/distributor as a post up option etc and every other player has to react to what he is doing. And quite obviously there has only ever been one LeBron James who is a 6'8" 250lb locomotive with amazing speed, agility and athleticism for his size not to mention very good shooting, ball handling, and low post ability to go along with great passing and a highly analytical mind with through the roof basketball IQ. And that's without even mentioning Wade & Bosh who are chameleon like themselves as a SG who excels posting up and a PF with range to three. The Kings don't have anyone of LeBron's talent and the most talented player they DO have should be operating from the high post and closer.

Here's the other thing about position less basketball. You still have to defend the other team who does play normal, positioned basketball. It's why the Grizzlies were such a tough matchup for the LeBron Heat. When you have Shane Battier or James trying to guard Zach Randolph it's going to be a long night.

It's why stretch fours and centers who regularly shoot threes are only usually useful starting next to a dominant big (Horry to Olojuwon etc) or as bench players. Because they are usually soft defensively and get abused on the other end.

If the Kings want to share the ball and try to get back to something akin to what Adelman did then I'm all for it. But if the Kings are looking at Nellie-ball as a longterm strategy then I'm not down with that. And unfortunately when I hear PDA interviewed he often references the old Kings but in terms like "getting out and running" and "fast paced" and "outside shooting". Yes, the old Kings ran fast breaks when the opportunities were there. And they had good outside shooting. But more importantly they were about offensive execution, player movement and passing. When I hear D'Alessandro talk it sounds to me like he's talking about Nellie's Warriors or the old Denver Nuggets teams. Not remotely the same types of teams as our old Kings. I sure hope I'm just imagining things.

And just to get back on topic, prior to CWebb's knee injury the 2002-2003 Kings team looked like the strongest one put together. And it's not a coincidence that Petrie added some defensive toughness with Jim Jackson and Keon Clark for that season. Moreland could be that Keon Clark like player.
 
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CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#4
Positionless ball is not Nellie bal, at least not to me. Summer league was a quick view of the tip of the iceberg of positionless ball. McC handled the ball most of the time coming up the court but others were given that task throughout to get experience in fast motion ball. The passing and off-ball movement was unique in summer league proving that if they buy into it, it can work (except in the last game when everyone was dead tired). Every media type there commented on that fact.

Where their play was not "Nellie Ball" was when a fast up court run did not present a good shot, they backed off into a half-court set, passed the ball and looked for a better shot.

Positionless to me is using what works against a wide range of sets of defined role players: PF, SF, SG, etc. The Kings have too many sort of bigs but can match fairly well when needed. But sometimes Ray-Ben-Nik-Rudy could be a powerful solution, in the right circumstances. Other times it might be Derron-Ray-Ben-Nik and run the other teams shorts off.

Solutions not positions can be a big winner if everyone buys into sharing the ball and finding a better shot rather than trying to take over a game......and end up winning just 28 games!
 
#5
I guess this new postion-less bball gives Malone an excuse to either play Stretch 4 Dwill or Casspi in that 4 position or just use them as backup 3

or use a defensive big ( currently Evans, Acy or Moreland - maybe next year)

Maybe it will depend on matchups?

JT is our only Backup center, and Landry is bench spark Plug
 
#6
I just find the whole thing fairly silly. Either they are just referring to standard positional flexibility (which we frankly have less ability to do than most teams), which makes the whole "positionless basketball" branding thing look amateurish. Or they are referring to basic small ball, run and gun GS/DEN style basketball which doesn't win and is a bad fit for our franchise cornerstone.
 
#7
Here's a quote from a Q&A with Vivek:
"I want to basically play a new brand of position-less basketball. I want to have these super-athletic, young guys that can run and feel out the game. Guys like Rudy Gay, and Derrick Williams, these are guys who can play the 1-2-3-4 positions."

Regarding Demarcus Cousins he says that boogie is a mismatch on the floor, too big for smaller guys and too fast for the bigger ones.
"He represented the 21st century player that I talk about."
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/67010/qa-kings-owner-vivek-ranadive

So I think it is about versatility and creating mismatches. In the half court they try to be like the spurs, share the ball and play good defense (see Summer League) and try to use mismatches. And whenever there's a chance get out and run. But I don't think it's run'n'gun, more like a more athletic spurs team where the players are able to create mismatches because of their versatility or if you will their ability to be positioneless
 
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#9
In the half court they try to be like the spurs, share the ball and play good defense (see Summer League) and try to use mismatches. And whenever there's a chance get out and run. But I don't think it's run'n'gun
FWIW... that's basically the Spurs. We still think of them as slow, grind it out, but they were 10th in the league in pace last season (Kings were 14).
 
#11
The guy admitted he just learned the game of basketball a few years ago when he coached his daughter's highschool or middle school basketball game. He said he knew nothing about the game. She must be about 19 or 20 now so this is not that long ago. Sometimes I cringe when I hear him talk about on the court stuff and the direction he wants to take the team. like upinsmoke said it all just sounds kinda noobie to me as well. Let the guys who have been around basketball since they were in diapers do their thing.
 
#12
Positionless ball is not Nellie bal, at least not to me. Summer league was a quick view of the tip of the iceberg of positionless ball. McC handled the ball most of the time coming up the court but others were given that task throughout to get experience in fast motion ball. The passing and off-ball movement was unique in summer league proving that if they buy into it, it can work (except in the last game when everyone was dead tired). Every media type there commented on that fact.

Where their play was not "Nellie Ball" was when a fast up court run did not present a good shot, they backed off into a half-court set, passed the ball and looked for a better shot.

Positionless to me is using what works against a wide range of sets of defined role players: PF, SF, SG, etc. The Kings have too many sort of bigs but can match fairly well when needed. But sometimes Ray-Ben-Nik-Rudy could be a powerful solution, in the right circumstances. Other times it might be Derron-Ray-Ben-Nik and run the other teams shorts off.

Solutions not positions can be a big winner if everyone buys into sharing the ball and finding a better shot rather than trying to take over a game......and end up winning just 28 games!
I never want to see those four on the court at the same time in any real game. You can run all you want and the opponent team will just pound the ball right down the middle against our wannabe PF.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#14
Eh. Does it matter who the "point guard" is, when you have Gail Goodrich and Jerry West? No. Does it matter who the "point guard" is when you've got Walt Frazier and Earl Monroe? No. Does it matter who the "point guard" is when you've got Ron Harper and Michael Jordan? No. Does it matter who the "point guard" is when you've got Ben McLemore and Nik Stauskas? It might...

Playing "position-less" basketball (no "power" forwards, no "small" forwards) only works when you have at least two guys who can play both guard and/or both forward spots, or one elite-level guy who can. Do either of those apply to the Kings?
 
#17
Reminds men of debate about "what is" Tyreke Evans at the time. PG, combo guard, or just "basketball player."

made me remember this segment, the first 30 seconds are hilarious.

Tyreke "I'm a basketball player, I'm a basketball player, I'm a basketball player."

Westphal "I think, he's a basketball player"

very insightful.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#18
Reminds men of debate about "what is" Tyreke Evans at the time. PG, combo guard, or just "basketball player."
I've always wondered how the new Kings FO really felt about Tyreke. On the surface he seems like a player that fits their vision of "position less" basketball but they didn't really make a push to resign him, letting him find an huge deal from New Orleans and then declining to match.

Also strange that in their first draft they went after a prototypical SG in McLemore. Even if Ben had been much more successful as a rookie it would have been as a spot up shooter and occasional slasher who can't handle the ball, isn't a great passer and doesn't have the size to guard 3's or the ability/awareness to guard 1's. He's a SG through and through.

I mean really, if the Kings front office were truly about "position less basketball" they would have resigned Evans, traded for Aaron Afflalo (or anyone in a Doug Christie or Aaron McKie type mold) and drafted Giannis Antetokounmpo. And this year, maybe a guy like Adriean Payne, Dario Saric, Doug McDermott, Zach LaVine or Kyle Anderson rather than another true SG in Stauskas. Now, I know Stauskas can handle and pass, but he's still much more of a readily identifiable shooting guard than a multi positional player.

I'm not saying that's what they SHOULD have done, but it seems like those guys are much more in the vein of position-less basketball than the moves they actually have made. The only reason I mention it is that I feel confused by how often the Kings front office and coaches say one thing and then do something that seems completely opposite.
 
#19
You need very, very talented multipositional players to do this.

Guys like DWill aren't multipositional. They're position-less. You don't want positionless. That was Tyreke's problem (still is) and it's Derrick's problem.

You need at minimum a guy like Shawn Marion or Lamar Odom. Guys who can do the standard bits of a job at multiple positions. You can't have guards who can't shoot but are big, and you can't have forwards who can't rebound but shoot. If Landry and DWill are not protecting the defensive boards, it doesn't matter where you can put them on the floor because their main job isn't being done. Positions in basketball exist for a reason.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#20
Not defending the Tyreke deal because I think it was a mistake, but I'm guessing the FO wants to spend money up front where the talent is always going to come at a premium price and look for more value out of the guard positions.

It's also extremely unfortunate that it was the first major decision the new regime had to make, based on 3 years of persistent misuse of his talent - which also lead to IT's departure.

I do wonder if Stauskas and Reke would have made a good pairing. We'll never know.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#21
Put simply: junk spouted by an amateur.

Positionless basketball = losing basketball UNLESS you have the very best players in the world on your roster, in which case its not positionless basketball that is winning for you, its having the very best players in the world that is winning for you.

A significant percentage of the very greatest players defy, or rather exceed positional definitions anyway. That's WHY they are great. And if you are an amateur you can mistake that for something desirable for all players. But no. Its a mark of greatness, its not what made them great. As soon as you move from Charles Barkley to Derrick Williams you have gone from "so great he can play 2 positions" to so bad he can't play any.
 
#22
can't really compare tyreke to dwill. one won rookie of the year at one position while the other hopes he can figure out which position he can play effectively.
 
#23
Right. A player can be positionless on both ends of the spectrum--so good it doesn't matter what position he plays, or so bad he can't play any position!
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#24
Regardless, if you get the great players you still need to surround them with guys that are compatible with that in the team structure. I think the team knows it is going to have to trade or draft special players because big free agents aren't coming to a team in our position.

We got so lucky with Vlade.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#26
Not defending the Tyreke deal because I think it was a mistake, but I'm guessing the FO wants to spend money up front where the talent is always going to come at a premium price and look for more value out of the guard positions.

It's also extremely unfortunate that it was the first major decision the new regime had to make, based on 3 years of persistent misuse of his talent - which also lead to IT's departure.

I do wonder if Stauskas and Reke would have made a good pairing. We'll never know.
Ugh reke is gone people. We got rudy out of it. Let it go.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#27
Ugh reke is gone people. We got rudy out of it. Let it go.
We did nothing of that kind. That attempt at justification gets repeated but it does not stand. Toronto did not care if Greivis was in that trade. The irony was they actually were TRYING to tank. And it failed in epic turnaround fashion. They just wanted to liquidate Rudy. Jimmer's ending contract would have done just as well.
 
#29
Jimmer's ending contract would have done just as well.
I keep hearing people say this, but I don't think you can assume it at all. Given how high the FO was on Vasquez, and the fact that Jimmer's value was so low they had to cut him for nothing, don't you think they already would have included Jimmer in the deal if they could have? And doesn't it appear that Toronto valued Vasquez more than just an expiring, considering they just re-signed him? No, I don't think you can just assume Jimmer could have just as easily been in the Gay deal, with any sort of certainty at least.

My guess is that they tried to include Jimmer in the early efforts to trade with Toronto, but the Raptors wanted Vasquez instead. Why do I think this? Remember, all the earlier rumors were that there was a Jimmer to Toronto trade in the works, before anything about Gay came to light.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#30
We did nothing of that kind. That attempt at justification gets repeated but it does not stand. Toronto did not care if Greivis was in that trade. The irony was they actually were TRYING to tank. And it failed in epic turnaround fashion. They just wanted to liquidate Rudy. Jimmer's ending contract would have done just as well.
And you know this how?