Trade Deadline Rumors
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Ahhh, excuse me, I was a big Lillard fan as well. I don't know that I lobbied for him, but I had a hard time convincing myself that Robinson was a good choice. Personally I would have taken Lillard with that pick. I sort of understand why they chose Robinson. Of course in hindsight, just about everyone would have taken Drummond, but I'll stick to my guns. At the time, there was no way I was going to take Drummond after the way he played in college. I believe you said similar things at the time. And we weren't alone.
I can't say for sure why Petrie made that pick, but I do know that our scouting staff was almost nonexistent. Petrie used to go over to europe every year and scout the players over there. That stopped about three years before the Maloof reign came to an end. If you don't scout the players and see them up close and personal, it's very difficult to good judgements about them. Robinson came with all the bells and whistles but as it turned out, not much substance. I really, really tried to like him, and I talking about when he was at Kansas. I sat with Uncia03 and watched several games with Robinson that he had recorded, and the only wow moment we could find was on a steal and breakaway by Robinson that was very impressive.
So on draft day when we chose him, LOL, I'm replaying that one play over and over again in my mind trying to convince myself that he's going to turn out just fine. I don't want our picks to fail. Nothing to gain by it. I have to give a nod to Uncia03 on this one. He was never convinced about Robinson and he was right. But hey, its always a crap shoot for the most part. Who thought Jimmy Butler was going to be an all star? I think that was the draft we drafted Jimmer. Lest we forget, if memory still serves, Jimmer was the college player of the year. You just never know.
So on draft day when we chose him, LOL, I'm replaying that one play over and over again in my mind trying to convince myself that he's going to turn out just fine. I don't want our picks to fail. Nothing to gain by it. I have to give a nod to Uncia03 on this one. He was never convinced about Robinson and he was right. But hey, its always a crap shoot for the most part. Who thought Jimmy Butler was going to be an all star? I think that was the draft we drafted Jimmer. Lest we forget, if memory still serves, Jimmer was the college player of the year. You just never know.
i think we brought jimmy butler in for a workout. my assumption was that we were going to try to acquire another pick to get him or wait for him to slip to the top of the second round. unfortunately he didn't make it to the 2nd round.
i saw trob and saw a power small forward with no particular skills. his motor was highly touted but we didn't see much of that here. i'm p'd that we didn't take drummond. petrie had him in for a workout and said he was interchangeable with demarcus. we could have had a 4 headed big man rotation of cuz, drummond, jt and whiteside. hassan would be the odd man out.
i saw trob and saw a power small forward with no particular skills. his motor was highly touted but we didn't see much of that here. i'm p'd that we didn't take drummond. petrie had him in for a workout and said he was interchangeable with demarcus. we could have had a 4 headed big man rotation of cuz, drummond, jt and whiteside. hassan would be the odd man out.
In regards to T-Rob, I actually wanted Michael Kidd Gilchrist. I really could care less about T-Rob at the time because I thought he was the consensus #2 pick, so I hardly looked into him. When he fell to our laps, I was happy because of everything I heard about him. I actually watched 2 full Kansas games right after....I came away so disappointed.... I think one game was where he went 6-17 shooting but had a lot of rebounds. He had terrible hands and wasn't really a great rebounder.. he just chased down a lot of balls that went his way. I automatically thought bust in my head... but I convinced myself otherwise that he was a great pick. 3 years later and my gut was right...
I think some really good players that will be drafted in the mid 1st round(making scouts shoot themselves in the foot) will be Caris LeVert(because of injury though), Frank Kaminsky, Bobby Portis, Justin Anderson, Jerian Grant, George Lucas, Kriss Dunn, and maybe Tyrone Wallace. Just off the top of my head. If we end up 8th and without WCS, I'd trade down for 2 1st rounders. Draft is good. You draft Frank Kaminsky and George Lucas, you're set to go.. any combos of those 2 players.
I think some really good players that will be drafted in the mid 1st round(making scouts shoot themselves in the foot) will be Caris LeVert(because of injury though), Frank Kaminsky, Bobby Portis, Justin Anderson, Jerian Grant, George Lucas, Kriss Dunn, and maybe Tyrone Wallace. Just off the top of my head. If we end up 8th and without WCS, I'd trade down for 2 1st rounders. Draft is good. You draft Frank Kaminsky and George Lucas, you're set to go.. any combos of those 2 players.
I believe the game you're referring to is the National Championship game where Robinson had 18 points and 17 rebounds against a Kentucky team that sent all 5 of it's starters to the NBA, including first overall pick Anthony Davis and second overall pick Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. Hardly a disappointing performance. Rebounding is often cited as the skill that most readily translates to the NBA and he was the best rebounder in college basketball that year. Maybe you weren't impressed with him at the time, but a lot of people that do this for a living were.
It's obvious you're unable to objectively evaluate a player when you're still harboring a grudge over previous drafts. I didn't want Robinson at #5 that year either, I wanted Drummond or Barnes because I think potential should be heavily weighted at the top of the draft. But it's over and that has nothing to do with whether Robinson is worth acquiring on a minimum contract or not based on his play in the NBA so far.
It's obvious you're unable to objectively evaluate a player when you're still harboring a grudge over previous drafts. I didn't want Robinson at #5 that year either, I wanted Drummond or Barnes because I think potential should be heavily weighted at the top of the draft. But it's over and that has nothing to do with whether Robinson is worth acquiring on a minimum contract or not based on his play in the NBA so far.
You seem to be re-writing history, Baja. I distinctively remember you really liking T-Rob and not being too high on Lillard. 
For fun:
http://kingsfans.com/threads/its-ea...-draft-wish-list-yet.43445/page-8#post-875843
http://kingsfans.com/threads/its-ea...draft-wish-list-yet.43445/page-15#post-890964
Here, you put Lillard at no. 19 in your prospects list: http://kingsfans.com/threads/immediate-impact-mock-draft.45904/#post-905455
This was in response to Kingster noting that Lillard was moving up the boards to just outside top 5:
http://kingsfans.com/threads/kings-like-lillard-according-to-hoops-world.46291/page-2#post-910734
At this point I stopped looking as my point was made! Knew my memory couldn't be that off. Sorry Baja, had to do it
For fun:
http://kingsfans.com/threads/its-ea...-draft-wish-list-yet.43445/page-8#post-875843
http://kingsfans.com/threads/its-ea...draft-wish-list-yet.43445/page-15#post-890964
Here, you put Lillard at no. 19 in your prospects list: http://kingsfans.com/threads/immediate-impact-mock-draft.45904/#post-905455
This was in response to Kingster noting that Lillard was moving up the boards to just outside top 5:
http://kingsfans.com/threads/kings-like-lillard-according-to-hoops-world.46291/page-2#post-910734
At this point I stopped looking as my point was made! Knew my memory couldn't be that off. Sorry Baja, had to do it
I'm just poking fun at Baja, he's right about a lot of prospects so it's fun to tease him when he doesn't recall history exactly as it was To be fair, he also said a lot of good stuff about Lillard in the lead up to the draft which I didn't put in my above post!
No one's right 100% of the time. Except me of course.
To be fair, he also said a lot of good stuff about Lillard in the lead up to the draft which I didn't put in my above post!No one's right 100% of the time. Except me of course.
I'm just poking fun at Baja, he's right about a lot of prospects so it's fun to tease him when he doesn't recall history exactly as it was To be fair, he also said a lot of good stuff about Lillard in the lead up to the draft which I didn't put in my above post!
No one's right 100% of the time. Except me of course.
To be fair, he also said a lot of good stuff about Lillard in the lead up to the draft which I didn't put in my above post!No one's right 100% of the time. Except me of course.
Why does T-Ron deserve a minimum contract? Because he's undersized and can rebound? We already have Reggie Evans. T-Rob's play in the nba has been abyssal. 4 different teams in 3 years is a career. Not to mention the last team waived him without much thought. T-Rob's play in college is highly irrelevant to him now.
T-Rob is still the same player we drafted when he was picked 5th overall 3 years ago. There's a reason why he can't stick on any NBA team...and a reason why the Kings were not hesitant to trade him at all
T-Rob is still the same player we drafted when he was picked 5th overall 3 years ago. There's a reason why he can't stick on any NBA team...and a reason why the Kings were not hesitant to trade him at all
Agreed. His play in college is irrelevant. So why did you bring it up?
The Kings trade was a straight salary dump to appease broke owners. The Houston trade was to clear out cap space to sign the biggest free agent on the market. The Portland trade was a playoff team trading depth at a position occupied by their franchise player for a veteran at a position they need. But more to the point, none of this crap has anything to do with his actual ability to play basketball. Teams trade players for all sorts of reasons. Andrew Wiggins got traded before he played a single game in the NBA and he's about to win rookie of the year. Philadelphia just traded last year's rookie of the year.
I'm simply arguing that based on his production so far in the NBA he's worth taking a chance on and for some reason people feel the need to argue against that simple point with talk about draft slots and trades. Did Derrick Williams work out for us? No. Is it because he was drafted 2nd overall and got traded before his rookie contract was up? No. That's circumstantial evidence that would have been forgotten had he come into Sacramento and proved he could play. And for god's sake, Thomas Robinson is not even undersized. There's just a broken record of fallacious logic around this.
The Kings trade was a straight salary dump to appease broke owners. The Houston trade was to clear out cap space to sign the biggest free agent on the market. The Portland trade was a playoff team trading depth at a position occupied by their franchise player for a veteran at a position they need. But more to the point, none of this crap has anything to do with his actual ability to play basketball. Teams trade players for all sorts of reasons. Andrew Wiggins got traded before he played a single game in the NBA and he's about to win rookie of the year. Philadelphia just traded last year's rookie of the year.
I'm simply arguing that based on his production so far in the NBA he's worth taking a chance on and for some reason people feel the need to argue against that simple point with talk about draft slots and trades. Did Derrick Williams work out for us? No. Is it because he was drafted 2nd overall and got traded before his rookie contract was up? No. That's circumstantial evidence that would have been forgotten had he come into Sacramento and proved he could play. And for god's sake, Thomas Robinson is not even undersized. There's just a broken record of fallacious logic around this.
T-Rob is undersized. I have no clue why people keep arguing the fact that he isn't. Not one bit at all. Not like Kevin Durant is almost a 2 full inches taller than Thomas Robinson.. T-Rob is undersized..................................................................... I don't think I'll reply further to a person who believes Thomas damn Robinson is not an undersized big man.
You told me I was full of crap for suggesting we sign Marresse Speights to a modest contract in 2013 too. (link) He ended up signing for 3.5 million a year for three years (with a team option on the third year, no less) and he's the third leading scorer this year on the best team in the league. And the funny thing is, his per36 numbers this season are eerily similar to the numbers he put up in his age 23 season. FG%, asts, rebs, blks, pfs, tos -- all nearly identical. The only real difference is that he's getting more minutes and taking more shots.
Those are also better numbers across the board, by the way, than perpetual kingsfan.com favorite Taj Gibson has put together in any season. People here are seriously floating the idea of giving up a top 10 pick and Nik Stauskas for 29 year old Taj Gibson and I'm the crazy one for suggesting we simply offer a minimum deal to a 23 year old with elite athleticism and impressive advanced stats? We're paying Carl Landry 6.5 million a year to give us 7pts, 4rebs and little else per game and using precious roster spots on Ryan Hollins and David Stockton and we can't spare 2-3 million for a player with some actual upside?
And just for kicks (cause I'm not about to roll over and accept this particular line of group-think) Taj Gibson is 3/4 of an inch taller than Thomas Robinson (6'8.5" vs 6'7.75") with 3/4 of an inch more wingspan (7'4" vs 7'3.25") and a max vertical which is 5.5" shorter (30" vs 35.5"). As far as I'm concerned, these players are effectively the same height in actual game terms. Robinson also has at least 15 pounds on Gibson and it's not fat. I could go into every Taj Gibson trade thread and label him undersized, but what would that accomplish other than distracting from arguments that actually mean something? "Undersized" is a stupid arbitrary term which infuriates me because it has no empirical definition as far as I can tell and people trot it out in lieu of referencing actual data usually when they have no such data to cite. You know who else is undersized according to this close-minded way of evaluating players? Chris Paul. Hasn't stopped him from being the best point guard in the league for the better part of a decade.
Those are also better numbers across the board, by the way, than perpetual kingsfan.com favorite Taj Gibson has put together in any season. People here are seriously floating the idea of giving up a top 10 pick and Nik Stauskas for 29 year old Taj Gibson and I'm the crazy one for suggesting we simply offer a minimum deal to a 23 year old with elite athleticism and impressive advanced stats? We're paying Carl Landry 6.5 million a year to give us 7pts, 4rebs and little else per game and using precious roster spots on Ryan Hollins and David Stockton and we can't spare 2-3 million for a player with some actual upside?
And just for kicks (cause I'm not about to roll over and accept this particular line of group-think) Taj Gibson is 3/4 of an inch taller than Thomas Robinson (6'8.5" vs 6'7.75") with 3/4 of an inch more wingspan (7'4" vs 7'3.25") and a max vertical which is 5.5" shorter (30" vs 35.5"). As far as I'm concerned, these players are effectively the same height in actual game terms. Robinson also has at least 15 pounds on Gibson and it's not fat. I could go into every Taj Gibson trade thread and label him undersized, but what would that accomplish other than distracting from arguments that actually mean something? "Undersized" is a stupid arbitrary term which infuriates me because it has no empirical definition as far as I can tell and people trot it out in lieu of referencing actual data usually when they have no such data to cite. You know who else is undersized according to this close-minded way of evaluating players? Chris Paul. Hasn't stopped him from being the best point guard in the league for the better part of a decade.
In 4 games with Philadelphia so far Thomas Robinson is averaging 9.5 points and 7.25 rebounds in 16.5 minutes. And he's 23 years old. Those numbers aren't sustainable, but they do lend credence to my suggestion that there's untapped potential there.
Compare that to Jason Thompson's averages this season of 5.7 points and 6.4 rebounds in 24.9 minutes and career averages of 9.5 points and 6.9 rebounds in 26.6 minutes. Or Carl Landry's averages this season of 7.3 points and 4.2 rebounds in 17.4 minutes and career averages of 11 points and 5.1 rebounds in 23.2 minutes. Neither one is a gifted passer or shotblocker either. In other words, the bar for PF play is currently pretty low here. In fact:
Carl Landry (career per36).................1.1 (asts)......0.7 (stls)......0.6 (blks)
Jason Thompson (career per36)........1.5 (asts)......0.7 (stls)......1.0 (blks)
Thomas Robinson (career per36).......1.4 (asts).....1.2 (stls).......0.9 (blks)
Here's what our depth at PF looks like right now:
Jason Thompson (2 years, 13.2 mill)
Carl Landry (2 years, 13 mill)
Derrick Williams (FA)
Reggie Evans (FA)
Eric Moreland (2 years, 1.8 mill)
We're currently paying 13 million a year to secure the services of Thompson and Landry for the next 2 seasons. Williams and Evans are both Free Agents. Moreland has played 2 minutes in the NBA to date. That's 2 mediocre bench players, 2 free agents, and 1 D-League starter. Aside from being a good value addition in free agency, I think there's actually a decent chance Robinson is better next season than all of our current PFs. Here's what we should do. Keep Moreland as a project, sign Robinson for the bench, do whatever is necessary to secure a good starting PF (Nerlens Noel is at the top of my list), and jettison the rest. Look for a competent backup C in free agency (I like Kyle O'Quinn if his salary demands aren't ridiculous) and suddenly we've got a solid front-court rotation for years to come.
Compare that to Jason Thompson's averages this season of 5.7 points and 6.4 rebounds in 24.9 minutes and career averages of 9.5 points and 6.9 rebounds in 26.6 minutes. Or Carl Landry's averages this season of 7.3 points and 4.2 rebounds in 17.4 minutes and career averages of 11 points and 5.1 rebounds in 23.2 minutes. Neither one is a gifted passer or shotblocker either. In other words, the bar for PF play is currently pretty low here. In fact:
Carl Landry (career per36).................1.1 (asts)......0.7 (stls)......0.6 (blks)
Jason Thompson (career per36)........1.5 (asts)......0.7 (stls)......1.0 (blks)
Thomas Robinson (career per36).......1.4 (asts).....1.2 (stls).......0.9 (blks)
Here's what our depth at PF looks like right now:
Jason Thompson (2 years, 13.2 mill)
Carl Landry (2 years, 13 mill)
Derrick Williams (FA)
Reggie Evans (FA)
Eric Moreland (2 years, 1.8 mill)
We're currently paying 13 million a year to secure the services of Thompson and Landry for the next 2 seasons. Williams and Evans are both Free Agents. Moreland has played 2 minutes in the NBA to date. That's 2 mediocre bench players, 2 free agents, and 1 D-League starter. Aside from being a good value addition in free agency, I think there's actually a decent chance Robinson is better next season than all of our current PFs. Here's what we should do. Keep Moreland as a project, sign Robinson for the bench, do whatever is necessary to secure a good starting PF (Nerlens Noel is at the top of my list), and jettison the rest. Look for a competent backup C in free agency (I like Kyle O'Quinn if his salary demands aren't ridiculous) and suddenly we've got a solid front-court rotation for years to come.
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Add turnovers to your analysis. Thomas Robinson is not viable because he turns the ball over to much. This combined with his high fouling rate and low assists signals someone who can't get better because he doesn't know how to play.
We do lack depth outside of JT, but TRob ain't the guy.
We do lack depth outside of JT, but TRob ain't the guy.
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Here's a list of players who, according to you*, don't know how to play basketball:
Yao Ming
Hakeem Olajuwon
Alonzo Mourning
Patrick Ewing
Shawn Kemp
Dennis Rodman
Vlade Divac
Roy Hibbert
Derrick Favors
DeMarcus Cousins
Tyson Chandler
Omer Asik
Corey Maggette
Brian Grant
Brad Miller
Kendrick Perkins
Jermaine O'Neal
Nikola Pekovic
Al Harrington
Gerald Wallace
Corliss Williamson
Rudy Gobert
Of course there are a great many other players with low assist rates and high turnovers and personal fouls that did fail in the NBA, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you're making it out to be.
*Initially I used Thomas Robinson's career per36 numbers to set the search criteria but then I realized that Robinson himself didn't even make that list because there wasn't one season where he met all of the criteria simultaneously. At that point I loosened up the requirements so that all three of his seasons would come up in the results.
Yao Ming
Hakeem Olajuwon
Alonzo Mourning
Patrick Ewing
Shawn Kemp
Dennis Rodman
Vlade Divac
Roy Hibbert
Derrick Favors
DeMarcus Cousins
Tyson Chandler
Omer Asik
Corey Maggette
Brian Grant
Brad Miller
Kendrick Perkins
Jermaine O'Neal
Nikola Pekovic
Al Harrington
Gerald Wallace
Corliss Williamson
Rudy Gobert
Of course there are a great many other players with low assist rates and high turnovers and personal fouls that did fail in the NBA, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you're making it out to be.
*Initially I used Thomas Robinson's career per36 numbers to set the search criteria but then I realized that Robinson himself didn't even make that list because there wasn't one season where he met all of the criteria simultaneously. At that point I loosened up the requirements so that all three of his seasons would come up in the results.
I said I would pass Becuase he was a poor defender and a black hole on offense. He's still those things. Would I rather have speights at 3-4 million than Landry at 6? Sure but I'd still rather have a defended than either of them.
At some point, this from office and some fans are going to have to look at fit and defense as bigger priorities.
At some point, this from office and some fans are going to have to look at fit and defense as bigger priorities.
I think replacing Jason Thompson, Carl Landry, Derrick Williams, Reggie Evans, and Ryan Hollins with Nerlens Noel, Thomas Robinson, and Kyle O'Quinn would be prioritizing defense and fit. Here's why:
Noel is a great defender but a mediocre rebounder and not much of an offensive presence. Despite his limited scoring skills, he's a surprisingly good passer though and very mobile. That makes him a great fit next to Cousins. Similarly, O'Quinn is a standout defender with above average passing but mediocre rebounding and scoring skills. He's a big body in the post though so he can handle defensive assignments that Noel can't. The two of them will probably split backup C duties depending on foul trouble/health/matchups. Whether it's Noel or O'Quinn down low, you really need a solid defensive rebounder next to them as neither one is particularly impressive in that area. I like Robinson for that spot because he's also got pretty solid block and steal rates so you're not losing much defensively when Cousins comes out of the game. Everybody is playing next to somebody who compliments their skills and nobody is a liability on defense.
Noel is a great defender but a mediocre rebounder and not much of an offensive presence. Despite his limited scoring skills, he's a surprisingly good passer though and very mobile. That makes him a great fit next to Cousins. Similarly, O'Quinn is a standout defender with above average passing but mediocre rebounding and scoring skills. He's a big body in the post though so he can handle defensive assignments that Noel can't. The two of them will probably split backup C duties depending on foul trouble/health/matchups. Whether it's Noel or O'Quinn down low, you really need a solid defensive rebounder next to them as neither one is particularly impressive in that area. I like Robinson for that spot because he's also got pretty solid block and steal rates so you're not losing much defensively when Cousins comes out of the game. Everybody is playing next to somebody who compliments their skills and nobody is a liability on defense.
Even if I agreed with those players filling those roles, how exactly would we eliminate the current players while bringing in those guys? While also improving our backcourt?
And to be clear you would be losing a ton defensively when cuz goes out but trob is in. Robinsons defensive stats are largely driven by his energy but it creates rotation issues and foul problems. He isn't a great defender, he just has the speed and athleticism to get some defensive stats.
And to be clear you would be losing a ton defensively when cuz goes out but trob is in. Robinsons defensive stats are largely driven by his energy but it creates rotation issues and foul problems. He isn't a great defender, he just has the speed and athleticism to get some defensive stats.