State of the league

#1
It's pretty clear this is turning into more of an entertainment industry. If you'd like to make yourself heard I encourage you to let the NBA know.

https://contact.nba.com/contact-nba/

Not sure if that's the best place, or if it even matters, but its something. Im sure theres tons of letters from major market residents.

When I see pod cast after pod cast where the topic is less about the game and more about the story or the refs or whatever the latest headache player did, I know its not just being an abused Kings fan.
 
#3
Competitive professional sports.

And I'm not really here to argue about this, just offering an official place for fans of basketball to voice their opinion to somewhere that might make more of a difference than complaining to their friends on a forum.

If I wanted to, Im probably way more of a pessimist than others here. Just trying to be as positive as I can, cause I generally like the group of people here and would love to see the best basketball team win on a level playing field.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#4
  1. I'm not sure what distinguishes this from the, "What would you change about the league?" thread?
  2. While you're certainly not alone in your way of thinking, have you considered that either
    • a) discussion/analysis of basketball at that level isn't all that interesting to casual fans? (and let's face it, all of these podcasts you mention, they're probably not trying to market themselves to the people who would be into that sort of content), or
    • b) the demand for podcasts exceeds the supply of people who hypothetically could make that kind of content entertaining/interesting to casual fans?
 
#5
Competitive professional sports.

And I'm not really here to argue about this, just offering an official place for fans of basketball to voice their opinion to somewhere that might make more of a difference than complaining to their friends on a forum.
I earnestly have no clue what you're expecting. The competition exists because of money, and the money exists because of entertainment value.

It's not like basketball is generating clean energy. Why have professional sports if not for entertainment?

Why would sports be a worthy profession without the money?
 
#8
  1. I'm not sure what distinguishes this from the, "What would you change about the league?" thread?
  2. While you're certainly not alone in your way of thinking, have you considered that either
    • a) discussion/analysis of basketball at that level isn't all that interesting to casual fans? (and let's face it, all of these podcasts you mention, they're probably not trying to market themselves to the people who would be into that sort of content), or
    • b) the demand for podcasts exceeds the supply of people who hypothetically could make that kind of content entertaining/interesting to casual fans?
Cool close this. I just wanted to post a link for people to try and do something. I dont need to have a conversation about it.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#9
Based on their posts in this thread, I'm getting the sense that @mrlaze is feeling a little "Back in My Day"-ish (I don't say that to be disrespectful or as an insult), and is lamenting a time when the "pure" competition on the floor was considered entertainment enough. I also sense that they feel as though the NBA is being increasingly more officiated in a way that makes the games seem more "orchestrated," and less about said "pure" competition.

Personally, I don't recall the "good ol' days" as fondly as they do.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#10
Cool close this. I just wanted to post a link for people to try and do something. I dont need to have a conversation about it.
I'd rather just merge it. I'm not trying to quell the conversation, I just don't grok why it needed to be separate from an ongoing, superficially similar conversation?
 
#11
This was just my attempt to try and make something negative more positive. Im not a very positive person in general. Yet I like the Kings and I like being part of the forum here. I enjoy the modern game for the most part.. its faster and when there's ball movement it's really fun.
 
#12
I earnestly have no clue what you're expecting. The competition exists because of money, and the money exists because of entertainment value.

It's not like basketball is generating clean energy. Why have professional sports if not for entertainment?

Why would sports be a worthy profession without the money?
Now there's an idea! Somebody contact the commish!
 
#14
my opinion, with the exception of a few games that I've seen, the game is kinda dull. I can't put my finger on whats missing.

When i watch football, I'm thoroughly entertained. There is more parity and the referees are worse than ever, but football is just fun to watch. I can't say the same about basketball.
 
#15
my opinion, with the exception of a few games that I've seen, the game is kinda dull. I can't put my finger on whats missing.

When i watch football, I'm thoroughly entertained. There is more parity and the referees are worse than ever, but football is just fun to watch. I can't say the same about basketball.
I'd say it's a combination of defenders having little space or opportunity to impact the game the way they used to because of overzealous refereeing and a crushing deluge of three-point shooting across the league that often results in teams taking a consistently higher percentage of deep shots both in transition and outside the flow of halfcourt offensive sets. As a fan, sometimes it doesn't look like you're watching a game of skill so much as you're watching a game of dare. As in, I dare you to launch that ball from 28 feet out with little regard for good sense or the team concept. And of course, the players oblige since the math encourages it. And the coaches encourage it, too! Even hard-asses like Mike Brown are pushing their players to launch from deep in situations that wouldn't have called for quick trigger three's a decade or two ago.

Honestly, I still have a hard time disagreeing with Gregg Popovich's assessment some years back that the influx of three-point shooting has turned the NBA into "a circus sort of thing." But there's little any team can do about it except play the percentages in order to remain competitive. And in an ironic development for competitive balance, the absurd number of three's taken every game also means that blowouts are a common occurrence when teams go either red hot or ice cold from beyond the arc on any given night, leading to fewer fans engaging with the second half of games that have simply become unfun to watch.

Like most everyone else who still loves NBA basketball, I've come to accept the circus. I'm thrilled by every De'Aaron Fox three-pointer because his newfound consistency from deep makes him an even more lethal threat for opposing defenses. But that doesn't mean I'm thrilled with the general trajectory of NBA basketball. I think there's a way to legislate the game that keeps the court open and spacious for the offense without marginalizing and punishing the defense, without encouraging an overabundance of careless outside shots, and without flattening the experience by allowing the math to force every team into valuing the same exact things.
 
#17
And of course, the players oblige since the math encourages it. And the coaches encourage it, too!
See, I have doubts that the math encourages it. How would we know for sure, as these teams all do the same thing so there's no real sample size to compare against.

Kinda like in baseball, prior to banning the shift, the analytics cult preached swinging for the fences versus bunting against the shift because the math encourages it. Well, how could they possible know? Very few, if any, players actually bunted against the shift. And those that did didn't do so consistently. So there wasn't any real data to compare against.

You can't use "older" data as the game and ruleset was different. Defense is different (and worse). I'd make the argument that 55% of 2's is greater than 36% of 3's (league wide average for 3pt shooting is "around" 35-36%).

If a team today committed to getting to the basket as much as possible (not passing up layups to pass out for threes) and working for the best shots closest to the basket against today's less physical often matador defense where hand-checking is illegal -- I'm not so sure teams can't shoot 55%+ from the floor more consistently than they can shoot over 36% from three as a team. Especially teams that have the likes of Giannis Antetokounmpo, Nikola Jokić, Joel Embiid, and Victor Wembanyama.

And I'm not even sure shooting 55% would be necessary, as an ancillary benefit to making a concerted effort to get to the hoop and work for closer shots is the likelihood of drawing more fouls, shooting more free throws and getting the opposition in foul trouble.

I've often argued that if Shaq in his prime played today, the opposition would have to adapt to him more than he'd have to adapt to them. Sure, a stretch would get open shots on him a lot. But he'd punish smallish defenses not constructed to slow the likes of him.

Dude shot over 58% for his career playing against bigger, more physically apt players. If he played today, there's no reason to believe he couldn't average 65-70% shooting. Jokic shot over 63% last season and Rudy Gobert has often averaged between 65-70%. So teams would likely have to construct their rosters a bit differently and not play their "small" lineups so much meaning they don't shoot the 3 near as well.

Obviously no "Shaq" exists today. But Giannis, Jokic and Embiid do. And they are all capable of shooting super high 2-pt percentages, especially if the 3 is drastically reduced out of their games. If other teammates did the same and focused on higher percentage shots against defenses geared to stop transition 3's, how do we know the math doesn't actually encourage that?

I always circle back to the Warriors really excellerating the mass 3 pt trend, due to their success beginning a decade or so ago. Thing is, the Warriors were and always have been an outlier. They had and still have two of the best 3 pt shooters of all-time. Arguably the very best 3 pt shooter in Steph Curry. Their 3 pt shooting has almost always been an outlier, in which the math did often workout because they could shoot 40-45% from three on a consisitent basis. Most teams can't come close to that.
 
#18
See, I have doubts that the math encourages it. How would we know for sure, as these teams all do the same thing so there's no real sample size to compare against.
...

You can't use "older" data as the game and ruleset was different. Defense is different (and worse). I'd make the argument that 55% of 2's is greater than 36% of 3's (league wide average for 3pt shooting is "around" 35-36%).
A higher proportion of 3s have been correlated with greater win totals for almost as long as the 3 point shot has existed

This graph shows the correlation between three point attempt rate and wins
1702639943983.png
Points above the line are years where a higher proportion of 3s attempted (relative to the average of the league) correlated positively with season wins. This is comparing within each season, so we're accounting for any changes to strategy as a result of rules changes.

So 3s have always been a pretty good strategy, even during the golden age of big men. (outside of some initial growing pains circa 1980)

The effect size isn't perfect (1.0 would be a perfect correlation), but not too shabby either. Shooting more 3s than average correlates with higher wins about as much as shooting more free throws than average.


This chart shows the difference in win correlation between three point attempt rate, and free throw rate
1702643893910.png
(points above 0 are where shooting more 3s than average was more correlated with wins than shooting more free throws than average)

I'd interpret this data to mean that most teams should have always been shooting more 3s in order to compete.

This is a chart of league average 3PA since the 3point shot introduction
1702645759755.png
This chart shows a steady expansion of three point attempts, up to the 2020s (which I think everybody expected). Interestingly the average number of 3PA looks to have stagnated since 2020. It seems like teams haven't figured out how to shoot more than they currently are.

On the "everybody does the same thing" point, There's about as much variation between teams in the number of 3PA now as there ever has been.


I've often argued that if Shaq in his prime played today, the opposition would have to adapt to him more than he'd have to adapt to them. Sure, a stretch would get open shots on him a lot. But he'd punish smallish defenses not constructed to slow the likes of him.
...
I always circle back to the Warriors really excellerating the mass 3 pt trend, due to their success beginning a decade or so ago. Thing is, the Warriors were and always have been an outlier. They had and still have two of the best 3 pt shooters of all-time. Arguably the very best 3 pt shooter in Steph Curry. Their 3 pt shooting has almost always been an outlier, in which the math did often workout because they could shoot 40-45% from three on a consisitent basis. Most teams can't come close to that.
I think Shaq and Steph are very comparable in terms of impact on the NBA. Both required opposing teams to rethink the way they built their rosters in order to stay competitive

But it's misconception that the Warriors were an outlier in terms of 3PA (They rarely even led the league). They are usually in the highest quartile in the 2010s, but not the top.
 

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#19
Now the thread shifts to all of us complaining about the refereeing last night. An NBA game should never be dominated by the officials and they should never have such a large hand in how the game plays out. Officials are human and they're prone to mistakes but last night was inexcusable.
 
#20
Now the thread shifts to all of us complaining about the refereeing last night. An NBA game should never be dominated by the officials and they should never have such a large hand in how the game plays out. Officials are human and they're prone to mistakes but last night was inexcusable.
Mike Brown didn't do himself any favors last night by blowing his wad early with regards to the coach's challenge.

The potential to overturn 2 calls is a significant impact on the game, it's more than a novelty