PG for the Kings
- Thread starter King Baller
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K
Exactly this, The dude got beat out instantly by Sessions (who was beyond awful for us) and the corpse of Andre Miller both of whom we got rid off as back up PG's (prior to that I'm pretty sure Maynard off knee surgery beat him out as well). I like Temple as a hustle SG/small SF but in the years I watched Washington (cause of Dre) he never showed any PG skills other than bringing the ball up every now and than without turning it over.
He's a defensive SG/hustle type like Roberson not a back up PG.
He's a defensive SG/hustle type like Roberson not a back up PG.
That depends on our expectations for our backup PG. Temple is certainly not a guy, who will break down a defense 1vs1 to score or set up teammates. He is able to do that occasionally, but it's not the norm.
But if the playmaking is coming from a different position, we run a lot of pick&rolls and get transition opportunities from good defensive plays, Temple might be fine for limited minutes at PG.
The major Problem is, that we once again need Cousins to be like Lebron to have the slightest chance to sneak into the postseason.
He needs to be our best defender, best scorer, best rebounder and best playmaker, while playing the most minutes. That's a lot to ask out of a center and most likely we will set him up once again for unreasonable criticism by the likes of Voisin or Napear, if he doesn't carry us all the way to the Playoffs.
If Joerger and Cousins can pull off a first round exit with this roster, Coach of the year and MVP honors should be a lock for our guys.
We simply are in a very tough spot:
1. we lack talent
2. we missed countless draft picks and never had a top pick
3. we have no big trade assets outside of DMC and WCS
4. we are unable to sign big FA's
5. our GM seems to want to go down the safe route with low risk veterans instead of betting on high risk potentially high reward players
6. we are running out of time due to the contract situations of our best players
7. we are a team with talented bigs and a decent but somewhat flawed SF in a league dominated by guards and perimeter shooting
With this kind of vision and starting conditions for Joerger all we can hope for is for the team to gel like Memphis did last season and to overcome all their deficits with hustle and teamplay.
It's an uphill battle against nearly every team we are facing next year. Should be a great cinderella story or an epic failure.
But if the playmaking is coming from a different position, we run a lot of pick&rolls and get transition opportunities from good defensive plays, Temple might be fine for limited minutes at PG.
The major Problem is, that we once again need Cousins to be like Lebron to have the slightest chance to sneak into the postseason.
He needs to be our best defender, best scorer, best rebounder and best playmaker, while playing the most minutes. That's a lot to ask out of a center and most likely we will set him up once again for unreasonable criticism by the likes of Voisin or Napear, if he doesn't carry us all the way to the Playoffs.
If Joerger and Cousins can pull off a first round exit with this roster, Coach of the year and MVP honors should be a lock for our guys.
We simply are in a very tough spot:
1. we lack talent
2. we missed countless draft picks and never had a top pick
3. we have no big trade assets outside of DMC and WCS
4. we are unable to sign big FA's
5. our GM seems to want to go down the safe route with low risk veterans instead of betting on high risk potentially high reward players
6. we are running out of time due to the contract situations of our best players
7. we are a team with talented bigs and a decent but somewhat flawed SF in a league dominated by guards and perimeter shooting
With this kind of vision and starting conditions for Joerger all we can hope for is for the team to gel like Memphis did last season and to overcome all their deficits with hustle and teamplay.
It's an uphill battle against nearly every team we are facing next year. Should be a great cinderella story or an epic failure.
In reality, if we are going to run a some of the Princeton stuff that Joerger talked about (using Cousins as a passer and creator similarly to Gasol in Memphis) then that is exactly what you want from the PG. Bring the ball up without turning it over, dump it off to Cousins and cut or spot up. It's not like we are going to be asking him to beat guys off the dribble and create off others at a Rondo level. If he can bring it up without turning it over and make solid decisions out of pick and rolls then I am not sure why we don't think he can provide some back up minutes at PG.
K
But as a back up he won't be dumping the ball to Cousins unless he's getting 30+ minutes a game and starting (which I'm assuming Collison will do), the 2nd unit 100% needs a guy who can breakdown the defence unless we plan on having Rudy Gay as the 6th man which I can't see him ever accepting. We need 1 player on the roster that can actually aside from Cousins breakdown the D with the handle, the team lacks any quality passing players/decision makers (Cousins can but he's so turnover prone) also which imo makes running those offenses even harder when no one is a threat to get into the lane or make a smart pass on a regular basis.
Off course he can provded back up minutes just bringing the ball up and never doing anything else but I can't see that helping us (his D will help us). I like Temple a lot but he's a wing player who defends.
Off course he can provded back up minutes just bringing the ball up and never doing anything else but I can't see that helping us (his D will help us). I like Temple a lot but he's a wing player who defends.
Such a simplistic way of looking at things. I expect Temple to spend very little time without one of Cousins, Collison or Gay on the court at the same time.
Rotations are obviously staggered so there will be very odd time here and there when starters are all out replaced by all benchers.
It's highly unlikely that the line up on the court will be Temple-McLemore-Casspi-Tolliver-Koufos. Temple will eat up a lot of minutes at PG and SG and some minutes at SF. I'd expect Collison to play around 36mpg which means there will only be 12 minutes per game that you are expecting Temple to be a lone PG on the floor (not taking into account injuries and suspensions). You can't tell me that for those 12 minutes you cannot design your substitutions so that at least one of Cousins or Gay is on the floor at the same time. It's not rocket science. Dave Joerger is no Keith Smart.
Rotations are obviously staggered so there will be very odd time here and there when starters are all out replaced by all benchers.
It's highly unlikely that the line up on the court will be Temple-McLemore-Casspi-Tolliver-Koufos. Temple will eat up a lot of minutes at PG and SG and some minutes at SF. I'd expect Collison to play around 36mpg which means there will only be 12 minutes per game that you are expecting Temple to be a lone PG on the floor (not taking into account injuries and suspensions). You can't tell me that for those 12 minutes you cannot design your substitutions so that at least one of Cousins or Gay is on the floor at the same time. It's not rocket science. Dave Joerger is no Keith Smart.
He played PG and the wing positions for Washington over the years and in his interview said he expects to play some PG for the Kings. That's why we are talking Temple as a possible backup PG.
I think the traditional positions aren't very important today. PG's score a lot. SG's handle the ball or create a lot. It's not about positions, it's about what a player can or can't do.
Temple is not a guard, who you expect to run your team, but the same can be said about guys like Livingston or Beverley.
Everything depends on Joerger finding a suitable role for every player on the roster.
I think the traditional positions aren't very important today. PG's score a lot. SG's handle the ball or create a lot. It's not about positions, it's about what a player can or can't do.
Temple is not a guard, who you expect to run your team, but the same can be said about guys like Livingston or Beverley.
Everything depends on Joerger finding a suitable role for every player on the roster.
K
Get ready to be jumped on by other people on this board for making this comment. Temple is a lifetime backup just like Tolliver, and will make no impact at all on this team. If you say anything negative, about anyone Lord Vlade signs, you will get ripped so get ready for it. Unless we make a trade this team is in trouble, anyone else thinking differently has their head in the sand.
Thanks for your wisdom. I have a different wisdom. From a net -net - SG to a net + net + SG, big team improvement. A coach, new but better. Improved back up at at least 3 positions. Potential attitude/locker room improvement. Better defense through coaching emphasis and talent. Potential improved conditioning (and foot health). Elston Turner. More of a Vlade team. Besides all that I feel good about the team. And criticism always happens no matter what. How many more wins does all that get? The sky's the limit.
Edit: And we got rid of a league leading assist ma, a decent rebounder and scorer but one who played the game "my way or no way" and s lowed the pace down, a net gain even wih Temple as back up to Collison.
Edit: And we got rid of a league leading assist ma, a decent rebounder and scorer but one who played the game "my way or no way" and s lowed the pace down, a net gain even wih Temple as back up to Collison.
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K
Everyone on this board talks like they are game changers and if you make a negative comment about either then it is the end of the world. We replaced Rajon Rondo with Garrett Temple. No idea how that is getting better but if Vlade does it then it must be the right move.
Say what you want but a good GM would have gotten Bledsoe or Knight in that draft deal for the 8th pick.
Say what you want but a good GM would have gotten Bledsoe or Knight in that draft deal for the 8th pick.
To the first player you mentioned, you have no idea of knowing that. No ideal. You have zero insight in what goes on behind the scenes.
To the second player you mentioned, no, a good GM would not trade the 8th pick for Knight. Advanced stats indicate that teams are better with Knight off the floor, but you want to trade the #8 for someone like that? You might as well roll the dice on the player you draft at #8 or at least look for a veteran who has a track record of making a positive impact for his team.
EDIT: And you have no idea if Rondo WANTED to come back. You make Vlade's job sound like a piece of cake. Vlade has arguably the most difficult job in the NBA right now. I can't think of another GM in a sh***ier situation. The talent on the team is mediocre at best, the franchise is known for being dysfunctional, they haven't won 35 games in however long, they are not a big market, the list goes on and on. It gets pretty tiring with those who voice their displeasure without keeping in mind our situation.
Our situation sucks. Don't take your frustration over our sucky situation out on Vlade. There's really not much else that we could have done (and the offseason isn't even over yet!!!). So if you're going to voice your displeasure, please at least direct it correctly.
To the second player you mentioned, no, a good GM would not trade the 8th pick for Knight. Advanced stats indicate that teams are better with Knight off the floor, but you want to trade the #8 for someone like that? You might as well roll the dice on the player you draft at #8 or at least look for a veteran who has a track record of making a positive impact for his team.
EDIT: And you have no idea if Rondo WANTED to come back. You make Vlade's job sound like a piece of cake. Vlade has arguably the most difficult job in the NBA right now. I can't think of another GM in a sh***ier situation. The talent on the team is mediocre at best, the franchise is known for being dysfunctional, they haven't won 35 games in however long, they are not a big market, the list goes on and on. It gets pretty tiring with those who voice their displeasure without keeping in mind our situation.
Our situation sucks. Don't take your frustration over our sucky situation out on Vlade. There's really not much else that we could have done (and the offseason isn't even over yet!!!). So if you're going to voice your displeasure, please at least direct it correctly.
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And another thing, we didn't replace Rondo with Temple. We replaced our SG rotation of McLemore & Belinelli with Afflalo & Temple. Not only is that an upgrade talent wise, but both fit really well with our roster. They aren't flashy or splashy, but the are decent, calculated moves that made our SG rotation better. I don't think Temple was signed with the thought that he is the primary backup PG. Will he see time there? Maybe here and there, but I'm pretty confident that Gay is going to be moved for a PG (as there seems to be continuous reports that we are trying to move him or willing to move him) so I think it's a moot point.
I'm really not on the Knight bandwagon per some of my other posts scattered around KingsFans. I think there is a realistic shot at landing Dragic who posted 3 seasons in a row with a TS% at 58% or higher up until this last year. He's going to be 30 this year and on a reasonable contract for the next 3-4 years. His On/Off & RPM is good as well. Not to mention he's big enough to play next to Collison, and he has plenty of experience playing next to other PGs (Thomas, Bledsoe) or ball dominant guards (Wade) so I'm sure it won't be as awkward as the Rondo/Collison pairing was (at times) last season. We'd probably have to give up at least Gay, Koufos, & McLemore to get him (and again, that might not even be enough), but he would be a pretty good get.
I'm really not on the Knight bandwagon per some of my other posts scattered around KingsFans. I think there is a realistic shot at landing Dragic who posted 3 seasons in a row with a TS% at 58% or higher up until this last year. He's going to be 30 this year and on a reasonable contract for the next 3-4 years. His On/Off & RPM is good as well. Not to mention he's big enough to play next to Collison, and he has plenty of experience playing next to other PGs (Thomas, Bledsoe) or ball dominant guards (Wade) so I'm sure it won't be as awkward as the Rondo/Collison pairing was (at times) last season. We'd probably have to give up at least Gay, Koufos, & McLemore to get him (and again, that might not even be enough), but he would be a pretty good get.
I would like to see another PG on the Kings. At this point Vlade's options are limited.
On another topic look at this roster--> http://www.nba.com/thunder/roster and tell me who starts at SF for OKC?
On another topic look at this roster--> http://www.nba.com/thunder/roster and tell me who starts at SF for OKC?
I tend not to give Collison much credit as starting caliber PG. However I just now watched a Cow Bell Kingdom piece on him which highlighted that he is capable, a good fit with this team and we would be plenty well served by a young promising backup.
Rudys importance I question seeing we have Casspi, Barnes, and the potential that he does not want to be here.
Anyways, this makes me feel a guy like Payne, Bostons Rozier or Minnesotas Jones would suit just fine. Rudy may be too high a price to pay for such a player but we should have other trade options.
Rudys importance I question seeing we have Casspi, Barnes, and the potential that he does not want to be here.
Anyways, this makes me feel a guy like Payne, Bostons Rozier or Minnesotas Jones would suit just fine. Rudy may be too high a price to pay for such a player but we should have other trade options.
Roberson, Singler or a Rookie is all I came up with. They do have a nice guard rotation and I expect they want to hang onto Payne. But for Rudy Gay who knows maybe they part with Payne and sign one of the leftover Free Agent PG's to backup Westbrook. Or have the Kings include another asset and bring in a PG from another team in a 3 team deal. I'm sure discussions are ongoing.
K
While he's super undersized that Argentina PG Campazzo is a little beast he reminds me off Ty Lawson except he's got heart and his 3 point shooting looks good, would not mind giving him a look depending on his contract situation he's smart/hustles and is impossible to stay in front off.
(opinion based on fairly small sample size)
(opinion based on fairly small sample size)
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I think the elephant in the room is DC's domestic violence issue. No one knows how long he will be out. A lot of us here are pretty much saying that Temple is not really a backup PG. However, he would be our only ball handler if DC goes down for his actions. I don't know about you, but I'm not ready to watch 30+mpg of Temple being our starting PG.
I think DC would be a fringe starting PG, but it's the backup position that has us worried. Temple is not a playmaker. He can't break defenses down. He's just a guy who can bring the ball up. If you take a peak at our bench, we have: McLemore, Barnes, Casspi, Tolliver, and Koufos. Out of those guys, Casspi is the only one who knows how to create his own shot.. This probably means we'd need Afflalo, Gay, or Cousins in the game too. Just not enough playmakers or guys who can create their own shots.
I think DC would be a fringe starting PG, but it's the backup position that has us worried. Temple is not a playmaker. He can't break defenses down. He's just a guy who can bring the ball up. If you take a peak at our bench, we have: McLemore, Barnes, Casspi, Tolliver, and Koufos. Out of those guys, Casspi is the only one who knows how to create his own shot.. This probably means we'd need Afflalo, Gay, or Cousins in the game too. Just not enough playmakers or guys who can create their own shots.
Fortunately Divak and Joerger are well aware of this and, like you, are eager to learn of Cllison's fate and are shopping for a a player to solve the problem, either a back up PG or, if necessary, a quality starter. We don't know which they need. They'll soon decide so we can go into camp with a full hand. And their task isn't made simpler by the fact that if Gay has to be traded then they need a starting SF also. Interesting problem they've been dealt.
Well, back from my trip with my daughter down baja. Beautiful there by the way. I see this nonsense is still going on, but what the hell, nothing more to talk about at this time of the year. So where to start? First, I'm not sure where this idea of Temple being the starting PG came from? I can see the possibility of him being an emergency starter if Collison is suspended for a couple of games, but that's about it. I'm certainly not going to wring my hands over that. Also, what type of offensive scheme were using will determine how effective he'll be. Ask him to be Rondo, and your courting a disaster. Ask him to be Mike Bibby, and he'll probably be alright for a few games. Of course Bibby was a better shooter.
Personally, rather than stress myself out, I'm going to wait and see what the roster looks like when training camp begins. I feel confident that another PG will be added before the start of the season. I'd be alright with Knight if were going to run something similar to the Princeton offense. To be honest, he's a perfect fit for that type of offense. I'd be fine with Dragic as well, although I'm not sure how reasonable either of those ideas are. Yeah, I know a good GM would have gotten it done. Anyone who thinks that should put in an application to an NBA team.
There is the question of how many games Collison will miss. I guess I'm more optimistic than most, but I don't think its going to be more than four games at best. The fact that he wasn't charged with a felony tells me that whatever happened wasn't that serious. In other words he probably didn't hit her or something of that nature. It's probably more like he grabbed her by the arm harder than he should have, or pushed her harder than he should have. Don't know, just guessing and not making excuses for him. But stupid things happen in the heat of the moment sometimes that we regret, and that can easily be misunderstood.
I hope it's nothing more serious than that, and if so, then I don't think he'll miss many games and all this talk of Temple being our starting PG will become moot. Having said all that, I do wish the roster had a bit more depth in some areas, but I also believe that Vlade is doing his best to achieve that without forfeiting the future. If he can't get a good return for Gay, then let Gay play out the season with us and see how that works out. Who knows, maybe Gay will flourish under Joerger and we'll want to resign him to another contract. Don't have a crystal ball, and believe me, I searched all of baja looking for one.
Personally, rather than stress myself out, I'm going to wait and see what the roster looks like when training camp begins. I feel confident that another PG will be added before the start of the season. I'd be alright with Knight if were going to run something similar to the Princeton offense. To be honest, he's a perfect fit for that type of offense. I'd be fine with Dragic as well, although I'm not sure how reasonable either of those ideas are. Yeah, I know a good GM would have gotten it done. Anyone who thinks that should put in an application to an NBA team.
There is the question of how many games Collison will miss. I guess I'm more optimistic than most, but I don't think its going to be more than four games at best. The fact that he wasn't charged with a felony tells me that whatever happened wasn't that serious. In other words he probably didn't hit her or something of that nature. It's probably more like he grabbed her by the arm harder than he should have, or pushed her harder than he should have. Don't know, just guessing and not making excuses for him. But stupid things happen in the heat of the moment sometimes that we regret, and that can easily be misunderstood.
I hope it's nothing more serious than that, and if so, then I don't think he'll miss many games and all this talk of Temple being our starting PG will become moot. Having said all that, I do wish the roster had a bit more depth in some areas, but I also believe that Vlade is doing his best to achieve that without forfeiting the future. If he can't get a good return for Gay, then let Gay play out the season with us and see how that works out. Who knows, maybe Gay will flourish under Joerger and we'll want to resign him to another contract. Don't have a crystal ball, and believe me, I searched all of baja looking for one.
As were not privy to all the info, we don't know what the league knows or doesn't know. I think it's the justice system that holding up everything. It's probably hard for the league to know what kind of action they should take until the whole thing is resolved in a court of law. I'm not sure what the hold up is? I know that many were surprised that they decided to take it to court when it was determined to be a misdemeanor. Don't know if that means it was a borderline felony, or a prosecutor looking to make a name for him/herself.
We simply are in a very tough spot:
1. we lack talent
we have one of the best bigmen if not the best in the league with complimentary players now
2. we missed countless draft picks and never had a top pick
true but you don't need the top pick to get a andre drummond, kawhi leonard, giannas antetekumpo. you can blame ownership(s) vivek(gsw backcourt cloning) and goofs (jimmer, trobbed) for a few of the missed picks.
3. we have no big trade assets outside of DMC and WCS
if belinelli can fetch a 1st rd pick.. koufos, gay and benny mac should be able to do the same
4. we are unable to sign big FA's
vlade has had 2 offseasons to work his magic which he's been undoing the buffoonlery that gerbil created
5. our GM seems to want to go down the safe route with low risk veterans instead of betting on high risk potentially high reward players
we need to show boogie we can win and not fool around. these low risk vets are going to change the culture of the team and mentor the next set of players waiting in the wings
6. we are running out of time due to the contract situations of our best players
see 5
7. we are a team with talented bigs and a decent but somewhat flawed SF in a league dominated by guards and perimeter shooting
plenty of time left b4 the season starts to make a deal.
1. we lack talent
we have one of the best bigmen if not the best in the league with complimentary players now
2. we missed countless draft picks and never had a top pick
true but you don't need the top pick to get a andre drummond, kawhi leonard, giannas antetekumpo. you can blame ownership(s) vivek(gsw backcourt cloning) and goofs (jimmer, trobbed) for a few of the missed picks.
3. we have no big trade assets outside of DMC and WCS
if belinelli can fetch a 1st rd pick.. koufos, gay and benny mac should be able to do the same
4. we are unable to sign big FA's
vlade has had 2 offseasons to work his magic which he's been undoing the buffoonlery that gerbil created
5. our GM seems to want to go down the safe route with low risk veterans instead of betting on high risk potentially high reward players
we need to show boogie we can win and not fool around. these low risk vets are going to change the culture of the team and mentor the next set of players waiting in the wings
6. we are running out of time due to the contract situations of our best players
see 5
7. we are a team with talented bigs and a decent but somewhat flawed SF in a league dominated by guards and perimeter shooting
plenty of time left b4 the season starts to make a deal.
What about sending a vet minimum contract over to Baron Davis? Obviously he's seen better days, but maybe what he lacks in athleticism, he can make up for in IQ and leadership? Even if the plan is to play Temple at backup, we still kind of need some depth at the pg position, especially with Collisons looming legal issues.