Papagiannis (split from Lawson thread)

[206Fan]

Actually, if you had a chance to see him live at summer league, he runs the floor very well, and has decent lateral quickness. I thought he showed more potential defensively than he did offensively. He blocked some shots and rebounded well. Offensively he was like a bomber surrounded by jet fighters. Everything was moving way too fast for him. He needs to lose about 20 or so pounds and get into top NBA shape. It would be in his interest to spend most of the year in Reno where he can get serious minutes.

That's interesting. Just from the looks of it, I thought Papaigannis looked a bit slow and gassed running up and down the floor. I think he's a good athlete, but he really needs to shed his baby fat. Conditioning is probably the thing he should work on this year.

I question his lateral quickness a lot. The reason why I think he has more potential on offense is because he has pretty nice touch around the rim. His post game is a work in progress, but it looks like he can use either shoulder. He didn't take a lot of mid ranges, but I think that'll be a big part of his game moving forward.

Defense will be harder for him to learn. As you said, the NBA is much faster. Lots of different concepts he'll have to grasp. He'll have to adjust his body to the game. He'll be called for a lot of "touch" fouls. To become a good defensive C you need: Size, length, quickness, and IQ(defensive).
Just can't see a high upside for Papa on defense even if he loses weight and bulks up. But then again, Gasol has become an elite defender. It'll be an uphill climb though.

Poeltl constantly pops up in my mind. I wonder if he was a real option for Vlade at 8. He's everything we want Papa to be 5 years from now...

 

[Bricklayer]

Out of shape, injured, new surrounding, lack of good PG play........all could have contributed. Lets see how he looks after training camp in preseason. I think we will see Papa G play better.

Sure.

But again, I'm not sure what people thought they were seeing in that 18yr old vid, but its the same skillset. More athletically performed, but there was nothing there but running the floor and rolling off the pick and roll. There were a few from behind blocks on little guards that you will take, but its also not nearly as easy to get those in the NBA (or Europe where he seemed late on most of his vids) as it is in a high school gym against kids.

So the situation is the same in basically everything we have seen: Big Papa is an off the ball big man with good hands who can roll effectively to the hoop. Largely endstop right now. And even at its best, that is not enough to be a factor. He's either going to have to learn whole new skills on offense, or really take to defensive coaching to become a factor on that end.

 

[lankfactor]

How you conclude this amounts to "entirely different players" is just incredulous to me.

Steven Adams is 19 years old, a legit 7'0", with a 250 pound chiseled build, with a nice shooting touch....

Papagiannis is by your own description a different player (at least on draft day).

Props due for being correct on the Adams draft, you were definitely right about that one.
Being that this is a Kings fans forum, we all want Papa to develop into a beast and he'll have plenty of time to prove himself.
However, we all saw an incredibly raw, out of shape player in LVSL who could barely keep up with a bunch of future D-leaguers.
He better be hitting the gym hard right now. The idea that he is a future all-star is ridiculous. If someone put those unwarranted
expectations on the shoulder of say, Skal Labissiere we'd all have a chuckle. Thing is, he is waaaaay more NBA ready...at least right now.
Believe me when I say I'd love to eat crow on this one. In fact, if he even becomes a consistent double-double type guy I'll gladly rock
a Papa jersey.

 

[Blob]

Sure.

But again, I'm not sure what people thought they were seeing in that 18yr old vid, but its the same skillset. More athletically performed, but there was nothing there but running the floor and rolling off the pick and roll. There were a few from behind blocks on little guards that you will take, but its also not nearly as easy to get those in the NBA (or Europe where he seemed late on most of his vids) as it is in a high school gym against kids.

So the situation is the same in basically everything we have seen: Big Papa is an off the ball big man with good hands who can roll effectively to the hoop. Largely endstop right now. And even at its best, that is not enough to be a factor. He's either going to have to learn whole new skills on offense, or really take to defensive coaching to become a factor on that end.

Papa played 12 MPG and shot 68% in 29 games. What kind of highlight package can you expect over the course 350 minutes? Thats equivalent of 35 MPG over 10 games. Thats not a lot of reps. So that's #1. And #2 I bring up Steven Adams for a reason. That guy was not great shakes in one season at Pitt. But he defended with size and hustle and verticality and scored opportunistically. Ran the floor and was pesky. That was it. You could say the same thing about Adams then as you can about Papa now which is (1) project (2) limited skills (3) 2-3 year before will amount to anything.

And Adams now is a damn good player. More than a thug. A smart player who knows where to be on the court and play within his role and skill set. Papa can be this guy. When you have superior size and fundamental ability to catch and finish and know where to be on the floor you can make an impact. I didn't see Koufos doing much of jack out of the post last year except bricking bunny shots. And I saw him late to recover defensively against guards. And slow to react to challenge at the rim. But what he did do was position defense, clog the lane, dive to the rim for put backs, and occasionally finish around the rim. That was enough for him to make a modest impact.

What I am saying in a roundabout way is that if you are center with superior size who plays position defense with verticality (not committing stupid fouls) and opportunistic scorer (put-backs and catch and finish off pick and roll you don't have to be have the wide array of basketball skills. Which is good news because Papa doesn't have a wide array! The one thing we do need to see from Papa is more mobility to defend on pick and roll away from the basket and a greater comfort running half court offense on weak and strong side. The former will come with superior conditioning and the latter with experience and training camp.

 

[KingsCitizen]

I would believe that the very reason Vlade picked Papa was to actually move big Cuz into that PF spot in a couple of years when probably NBA would be teeming again with legit bigs. And twin towers would be a treasure chest for any team.

If folks paid attention to the last 5 years, the bigs are actuallly the legit impact players out of those drafts. There is no more DRose, Westbrook, Curry, or Lillard. And the SG spot has seen a drought for like a decade now. The era of high octane PG is slowly closing its doors, IMO.

This season, we will probably see a swing of attention to the bigs as Towns, Embiid, Noel, Simmons, DMC, Porz, Horford, Howard, Jordan, Drummond, Kanter, Adams, Whiteside, Favors, Gasol, etc makes more impact this time.

If you move DMC to PF, an agile 7'2" guy at C would be an acceptable reason.

 

[206Fan]

I would believe that the very reason Vlade picked Papa was to actually move big Cuz into that PF spot in a couple of years when probably NBA would be teeming again with legit bigs. And twin towers would be a treasure chest for any team.

If folks paid attention to the last 5 years, the bigs are actuallly the legit impact players out of those drafts. There is no more DRose, Westbrook, Curry, or Lillard. And the SG spot has seen a drought for like a decade now. The era of high octane PG is slowly closing its doors, IMO.

This season, we will probably see a swing of attention to the bigs as Towns, Embiid, Noel, Simmons, DMC, Porz, Horford, Howard, Jordan, Drummond, Kanter, Adams, Whiteside, Favors, Gasol, etc makes more impact this time.

If you move DMC to PF, an agile 7'2" guy at C would be an acceptable reason.

I disagree.

Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker, Klay Thompson, Damian Lillard, Bradley Beal, CJ McCollum, and D'Angelo Russell.
Lillard was drafted in 2012... same year as AD.

I don't think the era of PG is closing its door soon. I mean... we just had Curry vs Irving in the finals. Irving made the game winning shot for the Cavs...

I think bigs are beginning to emerge again, HOWEVER they are completely different styles of bigs compared to Cousins. Okafor is probably the only one that resembles any bit of Cousins.

Towns, Noel, Simmons, Porzingis, Drummond, and etc are ALL more athletic and quick than Cousins. They're a different bread of bigs. This is not a knock at Cousins, but they play nothing like Cousins. None of those guys are ball dominant players who demand the ball to be in their hands in order for them to be a part of an offense. They don't have low FG% like Cousins. They're more efficient scorers. It's just not the same comp imo.

You can't move Cousins to PF. He's like 6'10-6'11 and weighs nearly 300lbs. He's not agile enough to guard most PFs in the NBA today.

I doubt we'll ever see a day where Papagiannis and Cousins can start together, and not get killed defensively. Lots of teams could easily counter that by putting out a stretch 4 on Papagiannis/Cousins.

 

[Bricklayer]

I disagree.

Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker, Klay Thompson, Damian Lillard, Bradley Beal, CJ McCollum, and D'Angelo Russell.
Lillard was drafted in 2012... same year as AD.

I don't think the era of PG is closing its door soon. I mean... we just had Curry vs Irving in the finals. Irving made the game winning shot for the Cavs...

I think bigs are beginning to emerge again, HOWEVER they are completely different styles of bigs compared to Cousins. Okafor is probably the only one that resembles any bit of Cousins.

Towns, Noel, Simmons, Porzingis, Drummond, and etc are ALL more athletic and quick than Cousins. They're a different bread of bigs. This is not a knock at Cousins, but they play nothing like Cousins. None of those guys are ball dominant players who demand the ball to be in their hands in order for them to be a part of an offense. They don't have low FG% like Cousins. They're more efficient scorers. It's just not the same comp imo.

You can't move Cousins to PF. He's like 6'10-6'11 and weighs nearly 300lbs. He's not agile enough to guard most PFs in the NBA today.

I doubt we'll ever see a day where Papagiannis and Cousins can start together, and not get killed defensively. Lots of teams could easily counter that by putting out a stretch 4 on Papagiannis/Cousins.

The only one of those guys that matter is Towns. We'll see how Porzingis develops. And of course the Embiid intrigue.

For right now though Towns is the only Cousins comparison, and its a comparison precisely because they ARE a lot alike, and truly represent what is likely going to be the new norm for great bigs. In an era of zone defenses the traditional back to the basket post bigs who can't step out have a problem because defenses can swarm them and take away space with extra bodies. The solution? Boogie or Towns. Great centers who can operate in the post, but who also have the ballhandling ability to drive it inside, allowing them to step out and isolate where the defense can't get them, and attack inside anyway. Barring somebody really emerging, those two guys are likely to be the All NBA centers for the next half decade or so, and its not coincidence they have the ability to face the hoop, shoot, dribble drive etc.

P.S. BTW, before people get too enamored with Towns -- he's the next great one, but last year he was notably crap on defense and he's relatively skinny and able to be bounced. All of those things could change with age, but not yet.

 

[206Fan]

The only one of those guys that matter is Towns. We'll see how Porzingis develops. And of course the Embiid intrigue.

For right now though Towns is the only Cousins comparison, and its a comparison precisely because they ARE a lot alike, and truly represent what is likely going to be the new norm for great bigs. In an era of zone defenses the traditional back to the basket post bigs who can't step out have a problem because defenses can swarm them and take away space with extra bodies. The solution? Boogie or Towns. Great centers who can operate in the post, but who also have the ballhandling ability to drive it inside, allowing them to step out and isolate where the defense can't get them, and attack inside anyway. Barring somebody really emerging, those two guys are likely to be the All NBA centers for the next half decade or so, and its not coincidence they have the ability to face the hoop, shoot, dribble drive etc.

P.S. BTW, before people get too enamored with Towns -- he's the next great one, but last year he was notably crap on defense and he's relatively skinny and able to be bounced. All of those things could change with age, but not yet.

Talking about Towns, he's going to be freaking good. I remember reading he was at least 45-48% from mid range while finishing inside at an elite 61.9%. Compare it to Cousins who is only shooting around 35% from mid range while 51.9% at the rim. (makes me really wish Cousins was a lot more efficient)

I don't think they have similar playstyles at all, but both players can shoot from mid range and score inside.

I think 2 years from now, KAT will be better than Cousins. His talent level is just way too unreal. He's more talented than AD imo. In AD's first 2 years, he relied A LOT more on his athleticism and others creating shots for him.

I'm on KAT's hype train. KAT-AD will be the future of bigs. I think Porzingis is going to be very good as well. That's where I see the league trending towards. AD is probably considered more of a C now. The only C in the league he wouldn't be able to guard is probably Cousins. Vs. Whiteside, Jordan, Drummond, etc, he'd be fine.

I think we will start to see more Andre Drummonds than Brook Lopezs and Marc Gasols. Extremely limited offensive Cs who can only finish around the rim. Something like WCS.

 

[Blob]

Here's your "project" center, Kings fans. I guarantee you Boogie cannot do this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJ4HLnyD8ry/?taken-by=g_p_06

Notice Papa takes off from one feet outside the half circle....not bad even for 7'0.

 

[kingsboi]

Here's your "project" center, Kings fans. I guarantee you Boogie cannot do this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJ4HLnyD8ry/?taken-by=g_p_06

Notice Papa takes off from one feet outside the half circle....not bad even for 7'0.

Where are his videos of him putting in work in the weight room?

 

[King Baller]

Here's your "project" center, Kings fans. I guarantee you Boogie cannot do this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJ4HLnyD8ry/?taken-by=g_p_06

Notice Papa takes off from one feet outside the half circle....not bad even for 7'0.

I'm hoping that translates to the games

 

[Blob]

Where are his videos of him putting in work in the weight room?

I thought the same thing too but he does look thinner than from LVSL.

 

[SacTownKid]

I thought the same thing too but he does look thinner than from LVSL.

Yeah, he looks like he's shed some weight since then. That's a good sign.

 

[KingsCitizen]

I disagree.

Kyrie Irving, Kemba Walker, Klay Thompson, Damian Lillard, Bradley Beal, CJ McCollum, and D'Angelo Russell.
Lillard was drafted in 2012... same year as AD.

I don't think the era of PG is closing its door soon. I mean... we just had Curry vs Irving in the finals. Irving made the game winning shot for the Cavs...

I think bigs are beginning to emerge again, HOWEVER they are completely different styles of bigs compared to Cousins. Okafor is probably the only one that resembles any bit of Cousins.

Towns, Noel, Simmons, Porzingis, Drummond, and etc are ALL more athletic and quick than Cousins. They're a different bread of bigs. This is not a knock at Cousins, but they play nothing like Cousins. None of those guys are ball dominant players who demand the ball to be in their hands in order for them to be a part of an offense. They don't have low FG% like Cousins. They're more efficient scorers. It's just not the same comp imo.

You can't move Cousins to PF. He's like 6'10-6'11 and weighs nearly 300lbs. He's not agile enough to guard most PFs in the NBA today.

I doubt we'll ever see a day where Papagiannis and Cousins can start together, and not get killed defensively. Lots of teams could easily counter that by putting out a stretch 4 on Papagiannis/Cousins.

I would correct your statement and say that Cousin is not agile enough to guard midget PF that was all around the league until the recent influx of legit-sized-starter-quality big recently. These big men will earn their minutes just like how Kanter and Adams or Favors and Stifle Tower are getting their minutes last season. The midget PF or stretch 4 is a bi-product of the PG era where guys like DRose, Westbrook, Wade owns the ball from deep to the painted area.

When legit bigs will matter again, that Papa pick will be very useful. The history of the game tells us that bread and butter plays of the NBA changes along with the change of quality starters. In the last 5 years, the quality bigs clearly outnumbers the quality guards that's why James Harden is still acceptable as best SG. LOL.

 

[itzcoatl]

That instagram video looks great! I was hoping he would work on his body and it looks like he is putting in the time.

 

[Gilles]

Talking about Towns, he's going to be freaking good. I remember reading he was at least 45-48% from mid range while finishing inside at an elite 61.9%. Compare it to Cousins who is only shooting around 35% from mid range while 51.9% at the rim. (makes me really wish Cousins was a lot more efficient)

I don't think they have similar playstyles at all, but both players can shoot from mid range and score inside.

I think 2 years from now, KAT will be better than Cousins. His talent level is just way too unreal. He's more talented than AD imo. In AD's first 2 years, he relied A LOT more on his athleticism and others creating shots for him.

I'm on KAT's hype train. KAT-AD will be the future of bigs. I think Porzingis is going to be very good as well. That's where I see the league trending towards. AD is probably considered more of a C now. The only C in the league he wouldn't be able to guard is probably Cousins. Vs. Whiteside, Jordan, Drummond, etc, he'd be fine.

I think we will start to see more Andre Drummonds than Brook Lopezs and Marc Gasols. Extremely limited offensive Cs who can only finish around the rim. Something like WCS.

45% of Boogie's shots were unassisted, 33% - for Towns. That's a huge distance. Deandre Jordan was at 33% pre-Chris Paul.

 

[206Fan]

45% of Boogie's shots were unassisted, 33% - for Towns. That's a huge distance. Deandre Jordan was at 33% pre-Chris Paul.

Maybe this contributes to the argument that Cousins is way too ball dominant and heavy iso. 45% is extremely high considering that we had Rondo at helm. I think Cousins needs the ball way less in his hands next season. Yes he's talented, but he's just way too inefficient to justify all those shots.

This is why I don't think Willie is such a great offensive fit next to Cousins. If you want to run your offense through a talented low post scorer like Cousins, you need all the floor spacing you can get.

I don't think we are going to see the way Cousins changes his games, but hopefully we see him taking smarter shots next season. His FG% all around the floor is pretty horrendous..even at the rim.

 

[One and Done]

re: Papagiannis - I say wait and see on the kid. I'm really hoping management sees something we don't.

For this season, I'll be happy if he gets in shape, works on his reputed "motor" issues, is efficient when he gets minutes, and shows some promise at the end of the season. Not looking like a smart pick right now...would have loved to been a fly on the wall in the war room when this call went down.