Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)

[hrdboild]

Does the fact that Daisuke Matsuzaka was one of the best pitchers in Japanese pro baseball during his years in Japan make him a good professional baseball player overall in spite of his craptastic MLB tenure? Kei Igawa? Hideki Irabu?

Euroleague is high quality basketball just as NPB is high quality baseball. It's better than college and the minor league but the ultimate level of competition is AAAA at best and there is still a huge difference at the end of the day. It's why we don't see Euroleague teams beat NBA teams during the preseason games.

As a Japanese citizen with pride in Japanese baseball, I feel your pain but at the end of the day the leagues are too different to take much from them in comparison to their American big brothers.

Yeah but Shohei Ohtani was the best story in baseball this year until he needed TJ surgery. To me he's the most exciting rookie since Mike Trout. Even though he plays for a division rival I hope he bounces back because he was fun to watch and MLB needs players like him if they're going to survive once my generation (the last generation that was actually alive when baseball was still considered the national pastime) is gone. And Daisuke finished fourth in Cy Young voting and was basically unhittable his second season with the Red Sox before blowing out his arm the following year and never recovering. The 8 full seasons pitching in Japan before he came to the US was a bigger issue than lack of talent. The average career of a major league pitcher is only about 10 years and trending even lower. That's probably why Ohtani took a massive pay cut to get his MLB career started earlier. But then he still couldn't escape the injury bug.

The problem with Igawa and Irabu is that they both got sucked into the black hole of suck that is the Yankees organization. With the exception of Mariano Rivera, that organization murders pitchers one after another and then their entitled fanbase spits on their graves. And yet they keep getting them anyway because they have bottomless pockets and the best brand recognition in professional sports. Almost any other organization wouldn't have expected them to dominate from day one and then jerked them around and discarded them like broken toys when they didn't. The Yankees seem completely oblivious to the fact that most teams cultivate pitching talent over multiple years. That's why they waste exorbitant sums on free agents every other year and then almost immediately need to replace them when they underperform in that environment... (get out as soon as possible Sonny Gray!)

But anyway, the point is top of the scales talent still plays from one league to the other. It only gets you so far without the mental commitment and you could maybe question if too much success too soon gets in the way of that but I suspect there are examples and counter-examples for both sides of that argument. I don't see how anyone can argue that Doncic isn't the most accomplished international prospect to enter the NBA at his age, ever. To act like that means nothing is a major cheat in my eyes especially with the amount of traction that Harry Giles gets around here for being the number 1 rated prospect in his 10th and 11th grade class. Everyone still has to prove it at the next level but more often than not you can recognize elite talent early.

That's not to say that Bagley isn't an elite talent in his own right. I'd rather talk baseball than basketball at this point and I've already written as much as I intend to about Bagley's credentials as a prospect (both good and bad). I'll just say that for me the crux of the issue here had always been playstyle not talent. Elite homegrown talent still dominates the MVP race every year and Bagley is clearly in that category as a prospect.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yeah but Shohei Ohtani was the best story in baseball this year until he needed TJ surgery. To me he's the most exciting rookie since Mike Trout. Even though he plays for a division rival I hope he bounces back because he was fun to watch and MLB needs players like him if they're going to survive once my generation (the last generation that was actually alive when baseball was still considered the national pastime) is gone. And Daisuke finished fourth in Cy Young voting and was basically unhittable his second season with the Red Sox before blowing out his arm the following year and never recovering. The 8 full seasons pitching in Japan before he came to the US was a bigger issue than lack of talent. The average career of a major league pitcher is only about 10 years and trending even lower. That's probably why Ohtani took a massive pay cut to get his MLB career started earlier. But then he still couldn't escape the injury bug.

The problem with Igawa and Irabu is that they both got sucked into the black hole of suck that is the Yankees organization. With the exception of Mariano Rivera, that organization murders pitchers one after another and then their entitled fanbase spits on their graves. And yet they keep getting them anyway because they have bottomless pockets and the best brand recognition in professional sports. Almost any other organization wouldn't have expected them to dominate from day one and then jerked them around and discarded them like broken toys when they didn't. The Yankees seem completely oblivious to the fact that most teams cultivate pitching talent over multiple years. That's why they waste exorbitant sums on free agents every other year and then almost immediately need to replace them when they underperform in that environment... (get out as soon as possible Sonny Gray!)

But anyway, the point is top of the scales talent still plays from one league to the other. It only gets you so far without the mental commitment and you could maybe question if too much success too soon gets in the way of that but I suspect there are examples and counter-examples for both sides of that argument. I don't see how anyone can argue that Doncic isn't the most accomplished international prospect to enter the NBA at his age, ever. To act like that means nothing is a major cheat in my eyes especially with the amount of traction that Harry Giles gets around here for being the number 1 rated prospect in his 10th and 11th grade class. Everyone still has to prove it at the next level but more often than not you can recognize elite talent early.

That's not to say that Bagley isn't an elite talent in his own right. I'd rather talk baseball than basketball at this point and I've already written as much as I intend to about Bagley's credentials as a prospect (both good and bad). I'll just say that for me the crux of the issue here had always been playstyle not talent. Elite homegrown talent still dominates the MVP race every year and Bagley is clearly in that category as a prospect.

Shohei Ohtani is also the strongest Japanese player in NPB history with the most powerful arm in the league and immense physical measurables. Luka, for all his talent, is an average athlete at best depending on which position you play him at with subpar lateral quickness on the defensive end.

Talent does scale. But my question is how much of Luka's success was him developing his "off-speed pitches" faster than anyone else and how much of it was him having a 100MPH fastball?

 

[Kingsfan23]

Shohei Ohtani is also the strongest Japanese player in NPB history with the most powerful arm in the league and immense physical measurables. Luka, for all his talent, is an average athlete at best depending on which position you play him at with subpar lateral quickness on the defensive end.

Talent does scale. But my question is how much of Luka's success was him developing his "off-speed pitches" faster than anyone else and how much of it was him having a 100MPH fastball?

Subpar athletically for PF?

 

[hrdboild]

Shohei Ohtani is also the strongest Japanese player in NPB history with the most powerful arm in the league and immense physical measurables. Luka, for all his talent, is an average athlete at best depending on which position you play him at with subpar lateral quickness on the defensive end.

Talent does scale. But my question is how much of Luka's success was him developing his "off-speed pitches" faster than anyone else and how much of it was him having a 100MPH fastball?

I was responding to the idea posed in your previous post that elite talent groomed in "lesser" leagues often doesn't translate to success in professional sports in the US. Now you're changing the argument but okay, if you want to go in deeper on Ohtani let's do that....

Sports journalism is by and large reactionary. Somebody does something extraordinary and then the commentators trip over themselves trying to come up with the best explanation for why it happened. It's easy after the fact to say that Ohtani was going to dominate because of his fastball (best in MLB this year) and the exceptional power he's able to generate with his bat (45 XBH in 326 AB) but there were a number of scouts who thought he would need a year or more just to be able to compete at an average level over here. The swing needed tweaking, the fastball was too flat, et al. In fact, many of them were tripping over themselves to say "I told you so" after his shaky play in the spring. The perception then was the same one you made in your previous post -- success in NPB (Go Carp!) is not considered an accurate barometer for evaluating potential success in MLB.

The question I have for you though, changing gears a bit, is how you explain Luka Doncic's dominance in a professional league as a teenager with "average at best" athleticism (your words) and "subpar lateral quickness on the defensive end". I would agree that there is some precedent for players dominating in other basketball leagues with their intelligence and skill level but not being able to adjust to the speed of the NBA game. Generally though the players we're talking about in that conversation aren't winning MVP in a season in which they just turned 19 or blowing by one of the best athletes in the NBA in a pre-season game as a 17 year old (a game which his Euroleague team did go on to win, btw). So let's be sports journalists -- let's be reactionary! If Luka's physical tools are subpar, why was he the best player in international basketball last year? We're not talking about a player here who dominated in his age group (Ricky Rubio, Dane Exum) but rather a player who dominated against professionals in the best league in Europe.

 

[ESP47]

Shohei Ohtani is also the strongest Japanese player in NPB history with the most powerful arm in the league and immense physical measurables. Luka, for all his talent, is an average athlete at best depending on which position you play him at with subpar lateral quickness on the defensive end.

Talent does scale. But my question is how much of Luka's success was him developing his "off-speed pitches" faster than anyone else and how much of it was him having a 100MPH fastball?

Aren't you in the crowd that is always preaching patience? I apologize if I'm mixing you up with someone else but I feel like you've made a few comments already that have implied that Luka is already fairly close to his ceiling while Bagley is just barely scratching the surface. How can you know that after just a few preseason games and one regular season game? It seems as if you think that it's a bad thing that Luka has a ton of tricks that he uses to make up for his lack of athleticism. Isn't that something you'd want a player to develop and use to his benefit? Just because he has nifty behind the back dribbles and flashy passes doesn't mean that he's done developing as a player. It means the kid can pick up new skills at a much quicker pace than most of these young guys. Who knows what he will develop in the future? His game is tailor made for the modern NBA.

He will probably finish his rookie season with a stat line somewhere in the vicinity of 13, 5 and 5 with a 42%ish shooting percentage. For a rookie, that's only 19, that is extremely impressive. How many 19 year old rookies have seasons like that and then turn into duds? Tyreke is the only player I can think of off the top of my head but we know that him being mismanaged by the team and all his injuries later on derailed his career. Otherwise he probably would have been playing at the clip he played at last year for the last handful of years. There aren't many guys that can really fill up a box score and the ones that do normally have the biggest impact on winning.

 

[macadocious]

Does the fact that Daisuke Matsuzaka was one of the best pitchers in Japanese pro baseball during his years in Japan make him a good professional baseball player overall in spite of his craptastic MLB tenure? Kei Igawa? Hideki Irabu?

Euroleague is high quality basketball just as NPB is high quality baseball. It's better than college and the minor league but the ultimate level of competition is AAAA at best and there is still a huge difference at the end of the day. It's why we don't see Euroleague teams beat NBA teams during the preseason games.

As a Japanese citizen with pride in Japanese baseball, I feel your pain but at the end of the day the leagues are too different to take much from them in comparison to their American big brothers.

I think we can all agree that Japanese baseball fans are better than American fans.

 

[Tetsujin]

Aren't you in the crowd that is always preaching patience? I apologize if I'm mixing you up with someone else but I feel like you've made a few comments already that have implied that Luka is already fairly close to his ceiling while Bagley is just barely scratching the surface. How can you know that after just a few preseason games and one regular season game? It seems as if you think that it's a bad thing that Luka has a ton of tricks that he uses to make up for his lack of athleticism. Isn't that something you'd want a player to develop and use to his benefit? Just because he has nifty behind the back dribbles and flashy passes doesn't mean that he's done developing as a player. It means the kid can pick up new skills at a much quicker pace than most of these young guys. Who knows what he will develop in the future? His game is tailor made for the modern NBA.

He will probably finish his rookie season with a stat line somewhere in the vicinity of 13, 5 and 5 with a 42%ish shooting percentage. For a rookie, that's only 19, that is extremely impressive. How many 19 year old rookies have seasons like that and then turn into duds? Tyreke is the only player I can think of off the top of my head but we know that him being mismanaged by the team and all his injuries later on derailed his career. Otherwise he probably would have been playing at the clip he played at last year for the last handful of years. There aren't many guys that can really fill up a box score and the ones that do normally have the biggest impact on winning.

Here's what my big thing about Luka boils down to: You can teach a great athlete how to play basketball but you can't teach a bad athlete how to be a good one. No one is saying it's a bad thing that Luka has all these tricks in his bag, but the fact that he has to use all these tricks to create just a little separation is not exactly ideal. My main concern is that tag the end of the day, Luka isn't going to be able to find a way to (a) become anything better than a slightly-below average defender in the NBA, (b) isn't going to be able to add to his game enough to match the development of some of the rarer talents in the draft.

Apparently that means that I'm raining on Doncic fans parades but all I'm saying is that you can't teach an off speed pitch guy how to throw a 97 MPH fastball but you can teach a dude with a cannon arm how to throw a slider.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Here's what my big thing about Luka boils down to: You can teach a great athlete how to play basketball but you can't teach a bad athlete how to be a good one. No one is saying it's a bad thing that Luka has all these tricks in his bag, but the fact that he has to use all these tricks to create just a little separation is not exactly ideal. My main concern is that tag the end of the day, Luka isn't going to be able to find a way to (a) become anything better than a slightly-below average defender in the NBA, (b) isn't going to be able to add to his game enough to match the development of some of the rarer talents in the draft.

Apparently that means that I'm raining on Doncic fans parades but all I'm saying is that you can't teach an off speed pitch guy how to throw a 97 MPH fastball but you can teach a dude with a cannon arm how to throw a slider.

“Play basketball” isn’t great BBIQ, playmaking etc which can’t be taught. Whereas the NBA is littered with great athletes

 

[hrdboild]

Here's what my big thing about Luka boils down to: You can teach a great athlete how to play basketball but you can't teach a bad athlete how to be a good one. No one is saying it's a bad thing that Luka has all these tricks in his bag, but the fact that he has to use all these tricks to create just a little separation is not exactly ideal. My main concern is that tag the end of the day, Luka isn't going to be able to find a way to (a) become anything better than a slightly-below average defender in the NBA, (b) isn't going to be able to add to his game enough to match the development of some of the rarer talents in the draft.

Apparently that means that I'm raining on Doncic fans parades but all I'm saying is that you can't teach an off speed pitch guy how to throw a 97 MPH fastball but you can teach a dude with a cannon arm how to throw a slider.

Apparently you can teach an off-speed guy to throw 97. Oakland's Lou Trivinio was in the rookie of the year discussion in the AL this year after throwing 74 innings out of the bullpen with a 2.92 ERA. His journey to the big leagues involved completely revamping his mechanics a couple years ago to add velocity to his high80s/low90s fastball. This season he topped out at 100mph with his four-seamer and 97mph on his sinker. You were just making an analogy but the resources athletes have at their disposal now from nutritionists to body mechanics experts to motion tracking and statistical analysis has sortof reinvented what is and is not possible.

No one is raining on anyone's parade, it's just an opinion. But I do think it's a little insulting to dismiss people as "Doncic fans" when all anyone is really doing is trying to objectively evaluate all prospects on the same criteria. I started out with a similar mindset regarding skill vs. athleticism back in the early 2000s when I first started following the draft but the argument for favoring elite athletes has gradually lost traction for me after watching so many elite athletes completely fail to develop much of anything in the NBA. Players can add to their skillset and they can improve their strength, conditioning, and even their explosive leaping ability with dedicated effort. But you can't make players care. You can't get a selfish player to suddenly play for their teammates. You can't get a lazy defender to start busting their ass on defense every night. Theoretically you can but these things rarely happen. It makes more sense to me to look at the results and then work backward. If a guy is not an elite athlete than he must be doing something else to give himself an edge. What is it? Will that translate? That's a better question to me than the discussion of "floors" and "ceilings".

Case in point, I started out last season with DeAndre Ayton #1 on my wishlist and Marvin Bagley #2. It took a whole season for me to eventually realize that Doncic is just a better prospect than Bagley in almost every way. It's fine if we disagree on that, my opinion about the draft doesn't really count for anything other than my own edification. If I'm a Doncic fan though it's only because I watched hours and hours of both players with nothing to gain from promoting either one of them at the expense of the other and my opinion after all that is that Bagley will probably be a very good scorer with a me-first attitude and maddening bouts of defensive indifference while Luka Doncic will occasionally be out of control and throw the ball away and there are some wings in the league he just can't match-up with physically but he's going to pick apart defenses with his ball handling and passing, he's going to give his all on defense and make more plays than you expect because he thinks the game at such a high level, and he's going to be an enthusiastic teammate. When I project where this team has been and where I'd like to see them go, there's an easy answer here on which player will benefit the team more. You want to reduce this down to a simple matter of which guy looks more athletic on the floor and I think that's borderline useless as an evaluation criteria based on everything I've seen.

 

[Warhawk]

It will clear the FO certainly and taint them, and Kings fans will rue it for years to come if Luka is better

Great! Then we can revisit this topic in say, 2021 or so. Until then it is grossly premature.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Great! Then we can revisit this topic in say, 2021 or so. Until then it is grossly premature.

Vlade’s job will be scrutinized by the offseason, IMO. So IMO his job will be scrutinized by his trajectory, he’s not going to be given the full amount of time to conclusively judge the end trade freely.

This thread is about dissecting the play by play so to speak, not positing conclusive end results

 

[Kingsfan23]

I’m coming around to making peace with the non Luka, Bagley choice. Not just because Bagley playing better, and with confidence, and some of the advanced stats.. But regardless of who I may think personally is a better individual talent going forward, the more I watch Dallas and De’aaron the more I see the fit issue. The fact that De’Aaron is developing like he is saves the equation IMO. I watch Luka and wonder, as special as dudes talent IMO, if he is capable of playing off ball or with another strong ball handler. I think he will always play a PG role, and how that benefits the offense with an unathletic for a PG role, point-forward running things long term, who knows.

But mainly I thought he was more capable of playing off ball than I’ve seen the last few games. I’m not sure he is like I thought

I still think Jackson will be a baller, but that’s another issue to watch in the future, Bags v Jackson. But I could see Bagley’s appeal to the FO on draft night

 

[Kangztillidie]

Mavs fans are already getting split on the Luka debate. Half think he is the truth and their future and he needs the keys, the other half wants team play and "old Mavs" continuity to happen. Should be interesting and glad it isnt here happening. If Luka were here it would be a 3 way struggle. Bagley fans, Fox fans, and Luka fans with Fox and Luka fans sniping each other hardcore while the team implodes (and does NOT start 3-3). Mavs can have him and the issues.

 

[Joshoua]

Mavs fans are already getting split on the Luka debate. Half think he is the truth and their future and he needs the keys, the other half wants team play and "old Mavs" continuity to happen. Should be interesting and glad it isnt here happening. If Luka were here it would be a 3 way struggle. Bagley fans, Fox fans, and Luka fans with Fox and Luka fans sniping each other hardcore while the team implodes (and does NOT start 3-3). Mavs can have him and the issues.

Wait what they’d be no Bagley fans the way Luka is playing.

And the notion that fox and Luka can’t coexist is outdated, outplayed, and ludicrous. You need multiple playmakers period last I checked fox will never be in Hardens level but Houston went out and got one of the highest usage players out there.

 

[Kangztillidie]

Wait what they’d be no Bagley fans the way Luka is playing.

And the notion that fox and Luka can’t coexist is outdated, outplayed, and ludicrous. You need multiple playmakers period last I checked fox will never be in Hardens level but Houston went out and got one of the highest usage players out there.

They would have multiple playmakers. Bogie, Luka and Fox. And there is only one ball homie. Luka here would be a recipe. And I notice you slowed down in your posting. Why is that?


And I was a Bagley fan from his year at Duke. So I, and others, would have lamented the Kings not drafting him and been on a Bagley watch all season, just like you and some others are obviously on a Luka watch. That's what I meant.

 

[dude12]

There are 3 possible reasons they went with Bagley over Doncic.
1. They liked Bagley more....potential upside, felt he was best available
2. Doncic might have told them he didn’t want to be there....we know Bagley said he wanted to be here
3. Joerger and staff may have worried about taking ball out of hands of Fox and Bogi

All feasible.

And if the plan was to play Bogi at the 3 the entire time, then Bjelica is showing a somewhat similar skill set at the 4 that Doncic is showing but more importantly, Bagley at the 4 doesn’t need the ball to produce numbers and he helps our rebounding, etc

Doncic, I’m sure could fit with our team but he is at his best with the ball in his hand as is Fox as is Bogi.

Don’t think Vlade could have gone wrong picking either guy.

 

[Joshoua]

They would have multiple playmakers. Bogie, Luka and Fox. And there is only one ball homie. Luka here would be a recipe. And I notice you slowed down in your posting. Why is that?


And I was a Bagley fan from his year at Duke. So I, and others, would have lamented the Kings not drafting him and been on a Bagley watch all season, just like you and some others are obviously on a Luka watch. That's what I meant.

That’s the point you need multiple playmakers on the team especially high IQ ones like boogie and Luka

 

[burekijogurt]

Mavs fans are already getting split on the Luka debate. Half think he is the truth and their future and he needs the keys, the other half wants team play and "old Mavs" continuity to happen. Should be interesting and glad it isnt here happening. If Luka were here it would be a 3 way struggle. Bagley fans, Fox fans, and Luka fans with Fox and Luka fans sniping each other hardcore while the team implodes (and does NOT start 3-3). Mavs can have him and the issues.

I'm not sure I understand the bolded parts. Are you saying Luka does not play team basketball and comes with issues in tow?

 

[Kangztillidie]

I'm not sure I understand the bolded parts. Are you saying Luka does not play team basketball and comes with issues in tow?

19 assists and 19 turnovers. Highest usg on team.

That 1:1 ast to ratio is hideous.

 

[burekijogurt]

19 assists and 19 turnovers. Highest usg on team.

That 1:1 ast to ratio is hideous.

Do you expect that this is what he will average with more games under his belt? I mean Bagley turns the ball over at a high rate, in fact identical rate to Luka's at 17.6% but I don't expect that to continue. Both are high usg players, Luka is 3rd on the Mavs and Bagley is 2nd on the Kings

 

[Kangztillidie]

Do you expect that this is what he will average with more games under his belt? I mean Bagley turns the ball over at a high rate, in fact identical rate to Luka's at 17.6% but I don't expect that to continue. Both are high usg players, Luka is 3rd on the Mavs and Bagley is 2nd on the Kings

Honestly dude, my post was more along the likes of let the Mavs and their fans deal with that problem. I couldnt care less, but only if you or someone paid me to care more would I entertain this redundant idiocracy.

If you want to have this debate I would suggest you find a Mavsfan or someone who cares more about how Doncic turns out. I have no dog in the fight.

 

[Kingsfan23]

There are 3 possible reasons they went with Bagley over Doncic.
1. They liked Bagley more....potential upside, felt he was best available
2. Doncic might have told them he didn’t want to be there....we know Bagley said he wanted to be here
3. Joerger and staff may have worried about taking ball out of hands of Fox and Bogi

All feasible.

And if the plan was to play Bogi at the 3 the entire time, then Bjelica is showing a somewhat similar skill set at the 4 that Doncic is showing but more importantly, Bagley at the 4 doesn’t need the ball to produce numbers and he helps our rebounding, etc

Doncic, I’m sure could fit with our team but he is at his best with the ball in his hand as is Fox as is Bogi.

Don’t think Vlade could have gone wrong picking either guy.

I don’t believe 2. Luka stated in interviews he had no preference, and was positive towards Bogdan/Vlade. He met for dinner and took jovial pictures with Vlade/Vivek, and retweeted on social media Vivek’s hand gesture in what many regarded his belief about being selected by the Kings.

Bagley IMO was more pro being picked high, and had good things to say in his other workouts, though had a good vibe with Fox/Giles while here.

Could be 1/3. I can see 3, because as a GM/coach, they are worried about the best immediate fit so the team gets the best immediate results so they are more likely to keep their jobs

 

[Joshoua]

I don’t believe 2. Luka stated in interviews he had no preference, and was positive towards Bogdan/Vlade. He met for dinner and took jovial pictures with Vlade/Vivek, and retweeted on social media Vivek’s hand gesture in what many regarded his belief about being selected by the Kings.

Bagley IMO was more pro being picked high, and had good things to say in his other workouts, though had a good vibe with Fox/Giles while here.

Could be 1/3. I can see 3, because as a GM/coach, they are worried about the best immediate fit so the team gets the best immediate results so they are more likely to keep their jobs

Worried about asking the ball out of Fox/Bogi hands is mind boggling to me, an absolute travesty

 

[Padrino]

Worried about asking the ball out of Fox/Bogi hands is mind boggling to me, an absolute travesty

Well, considering how the Mavs have struggled thus far to find space for both Luka and Dennis Smith to operate, and given that Luka’s creativity is best-utilized when he has the ball in his hands, it’s not an unreasonable concern. Time will tell if it’s rendered moot, but there’s a difference between constructing a roster full of capable playmakers and constructing a roster with high-usage, ball dominant players. Luka and DSJ aren’t a match made in heaven in the backcourt, and I’m not sure Luka and Fox would be, either.

 

[ESP47]

I really don't understand this notion that having multiple playmakers on the team is suddenly a bad thing. I think people are just trying to find any reason they can to justify why they think Doncic wouldn't be a good fit on the Kings. That excuse would only make sense if Luka was projected to be a bad shooter but he's not. He's going to be able to play on or off the ball. If Luka was on the Kings and Fox dominated the ball for a possession, it doesn't make Luka pointless. It means now Fox can kick the ball out to the corner for a Doncic 3 instead of Justin freakin' Jackson going clank, clank, clank all game along.

I don't remember anyone complaining years ago when we had Bibby, Christie, Webber and Vlade all making plays. There was only one ball to go around back then too. It doesn't seem to hurt Curry, Durant and Green or Harden and Paul. It's never a bad thing to have multiple play making options. The only time it doesn't work is if guys can't shoot the ball so they become weak off the ball players but Doncic doesn't project to be like that at all.

 

[burekijogurt]

Honestly dude, my post was more along the likes of let the Mavs and their fans deal with that problem. I couldnt care less, but only if you or someone paid me to care more would I entertain this redundant idiocracy.

If you want to have this debate I would suggest you find a Mavsfan or someone who cares more about how Doncic turns out. I have no dog in the fight.

ha! did you edit this post or did the moderators do it?

 

[Joshoua]

I’m really at a loss for words do some not understand multiple playmakers is a must. The versatility of a Fox-Buddy-Bogi-Luka-WCS lineup would play with any lineup in the league.

But like you said it’s just people trying to find a way to justify things

I really don't understand this notion that having multiple playmakers on the team is suddenly a bad thing. I think people are just trying to find any reason they can to justify why they think Doncic wouldn't be a good fit on the Kings. That excuse would only make sense if Luka was projected to be a bad shooter but he's not. He's going to be able to play on or off the ball. If Luka was on the Kings and Fox dominated the ball for a possession, it doesn't make Luka pointless. It means now Fox can kick the ball out to the corner for a Doncic 3 instead of Justin freakin' Jackson going clank, clank, clank all game along.

I don't remember anyone complaining years ago when we had Bibby, Christie, Webber and Vlade all making plays. There was only one ball to go around back then too. It doesn't seem to hurt Curry, Durant and Green or Harden and Paul. It's never a bad thing to have multiple play making options. The only time it doesn't work is if guys can't shoot the ball so they become weak off the ball players but Doncic doesn't project to be like that at all.

Well, considering how the Mavs have struggled thus far to find space for both Luka and Dennis Smith to operate, and given that Luka’s creativity is best-utilized when he has the ball in his hands, it’s not an unreasonable concern. Time will tell if it’s rendered moot, but there’s a difference between constructing a roster full of capable playmakers and constructing a roster with high-usage, ball dominant players. Luka and DSJ aren’t a match made in heaven in the backcourt, and I’m not sure Luka and Fox would be, either.

Luka was at his best next to Dragic and Llull it’s not his fault Smith can’t shoot or play off ball. Fox and Smith shouldn’t be compared

 

[Kangztillidie]

ha! did you edit this post or did the moderators do it?

Once I sobered up I realized the level of snark so I edited it.

 

[roasthawg]

Worried about asking the ball out of Fox/Bogi hands is mind boggling to me, an absolute travesty

Why do you say this? Do you not see future all star in Fox? He needs the ball, he's made an amazing jump from last year to this year and still has so much room to get better.

 

[Joshoua]

Why do you say this? Do you not see future all star in Fox? He needs the ball, he's made an amazing jump from last year to this year and still has so much room to get better.

I see a future all star but u date you to name a successful team that has an all star without other ball handlers taking the ball out of his hands.
You end up like Washington with a capped ceiling when you only have 1 playmaker and Wall is elite at running a team.