Kings offense

[Joshoua]

https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/5/23/17366276/sacramento-kings-dave-joerger-offense

You have to be able to shoot 3s and push the pace to win it’s very discouraging we didn’t do that. We were last in pace and too 3 bottom in 3 point attempts, Free throws, and shots at the rim. That’s how you loose game no matter how much talent you have. Makes no sense how we could be one of the best teams shooting the 3 but in turn literally refuse to take 3s

We ran the ball through the elbow the most in the nba at 20 times per game next closest was Memphis at 17.




If Joerger sticks to this type of offense next year I’m having David Blatt on a plane to Sacramento.

 

[funkykingston]

When Z-Bo is your leading scorer at 14.5 ppg that's a huge sign that things are horribly wrong with your offense.

Faster pace, more threes, less horns & high post sets in general would all be welcome sights in my eyes.

 

[SacTownKid]

Well there you go. Although I think we can all say now that the Kings landed number 2 it was indeed brilliant tanking all the way.

 

[Joshoua]

Well there you go. Although I think we can all say now that the Kings landed number 2 it was indeed brilliant tanking all the way.

This is false though we lucked into number 2 we were at 7.

All I know is of we’re in the 20s in pace still and running elbow plays this year then Joerger has to go

 

[gunks]

I'm hoping it's a case of the kids being too green to run anything else, so hopefully our offense looks a bit more modern next season. I know Joerger trotted out that excuse quite a bit last season. Although Brad Stevens seems to be doing ok with young players and a heavy roster turn around (but then I remind myself that the Celtics may have found the next Pop, Joerger shouldn't be held to such lofty standards. When you compare him to Smart, Natt, Muss... he starts to look better!).

Joerger seems to be a bit of a dinosaur, and I think that people may start to turn on him next season (fairly or not) if we don't see any progress.

Buuuuut.... I'll hope for the best. I'm optimistic in the offseason. Reality doesn't set in until the actual games start, after all.

 

[King Baller]

Was that not Coach Joerger constantly urging the team to run, run, run???

 

[SacTownKid]

This is false though we lucked into number 2 we were at 7.

All I know is of we’re in the 20s in pace still and running elbow plays this year then Joerger has to go

No way, coach Joerger knew that statistically his grit and grind system running on Zbo power would lead the team to the mid-point of the lottery, aka the sweet spot just like mid-range shots, which meant the Kings had no place to go but up. I'm sure Joergers plan the whole time was to make sure the team paced itself so De'Aaron would have plenty of energy for the lottery and bring home the gold. It was total genius.

 

[SacTownKid]

Was that not Coach Joerger constantly urging the team to run, run, run???

More like "run, run, run... my offense."

 

[VF21]

Well there you go. Although I think we can all say now that the Kings landed number 2 it was indeed brilliant tanking all the way.

Nope.

 

[The Phenom]

I think its more the decision from the coaching staff around the number of field goal attempts and who they want taking these attempts that dictate both our pace and offensive sets rather than the other way around. With two young prospects coming into the side in Giles and whoever we select at #2 my question is what is the spread of shots attempts going to look like on our roster? I think the league averages around 85-86 shots per game so looking at the possible lists we may have what does this spread/breakdown look like for all of you?

From Basketball Reference, Zach Randolph averaged 12.9 FGA per game with Buddy, Fox, WCS and Bogdan rounding out our top five. It was Joerger's decision to get Randolph these looks hence why the pace dropped and the ball went into Iso's on the elbow so much.

With Giles and the #2 coming in this season we would definitely want them both in the top five attempts per game. The number of shots we get them likely determines their success year one. It's clear that both Ben Simmons and Mitchell had the ball in their hands more than any other rookie and that Tatum fell into the same category after the injuries to Haywood and Irving. That's why they were the top 3.

Once the team determine who they want taking the shot attempts they set their offence and pace to give those players that number of looks. It's no coincidence that Durant, Steph and Klay get offences run for them more than anybody else and that Green and others often give up open looks to make an extra pass to them.

If we want to play fast, shoot more threes and get to the foul line more then select the guy in the draft that's going to do that for us and give him and the others we currently have on the roster that play a similar style more looks. Trade the players that dont play / contribute well enough to that system and sign free agents that are going to fill the gaps we have when these scorers on the floor.

 

[ESP47]

We've heard Joerger talk about how he wanted to install a faster pace offense in Memphis but got vetoed by the veteran players.

We heard him talk about faster pace and run run run last year while having them run slow moving high post sets.

Joerger is all about talking about playing fast while always playing slow. Time for him to put his money where his mouth is. We can't blame ZBo for the slow pace because the pace was the same whether he was on the court or not.

One thing that sort of worries me is with all the talk of Giles' passing skills, is he going to fall in love with Giles at the high post? Even if Giles is the best passing big man on the team, he's probably not going to be a better passer than our guards. I've never understood the point of this offense other than familiarity for Joerger.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

I think the offense last season was all about teaching the young guys how to make reads/react, and be able to control the pace of the game to keep the young guys engaged. Last year, if the opponent went on an a 8-0 run, we could dump it into ZBo for a bucket or for him to get to the line, and cease the opponent’s momentum. It also allowed Dave to piecemeal additional responsibility to the young guys as they developed, as opposed to a 5-out offense where everyone has to run the P&R in all it variations, for example.

He’s a great coach; he’ll change it up this season.

 

[kingsboi]

I like Joerger so I want to hope that last season was not a sign of things to come for the offense moving forward. This high post with the bigs needs to end or only used in small instances. The Kings were a top 10 three point shooting team and yet they were towards the bottom of the league in attempts, which might also help with the three point percentage. The Kings have a fast end to end PG and that strength needs to be used often especially with the athletic bigs the Kings have in Skal, Giles & Cauley Stein. More shots for Bogs and Buddy should also be a priority.

 

[BigVirg]

Draft Bagley and you have to run. JK all joking aside I've noticed our high post offense for awhile and really feel its a reason some of our young guards didn't show as much as I think they can. Jaeger is great out of timeouts but I do have concerns about his pace of play as a coach. His high post O is very similar to the Princeton offense we ran in Vlade's era. I think it can still thrive with the right personnel but its definitely worrisome. I'd like to see us "enter the modern NBA" like the article says. Tempo and 3 pt shots have to pick up.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I think you have to look at last season in two parts. up until the All star break Joerger was trying to make the most of the vets he had and played old school ball dumping the ball to Zebo in the half court. But the second part was a fast pace team looking to score quick and move the ball. It was a work in progress with a young and frankly incomplete lien up but there were moments of flash... enough of the that fans who were rooting for losses got dam frustrated. I think it is safe to assume that what we can expect to see this season will be more of the later half. I suspect that if Zach is not traded he will either sit or get cut. There frankly is no place for his game on this team and probably not in the modern NBA. No disrespect to a man who was once an unmovealbe force in the game, but unfortunately the game has passed Zach by and age seems to taking its toll as well. I expect the pace to quicken.

 

[Tetsujin]

I think you have to look at last season in two parts. up until the All star break Joerger was trying to make the most of the vets he had and played old school ball dumping the ball to Zebo in the half court. But the second part was a fast pace team looking to score quick and move the ball. It was a work in progress with a young and frankly incomplete lien up but there were moments of flash... enough of the that fans who were rooting for losses got dam frustrated. I think it is safe to assume that what we can expect to see this season will be more of the later half. I suspect that if Zach is not traded he will either sit or get cut. There frankly is no place for his game on this team and probably not in the modern NBA. No disrespect to a man who was once an unmovealbe force in the game, but unfortunately the game has passed Zach by and age seems to taking its toll as well. I expect the pace to quicken.

That may be true in the regular season but these playoffs have kinda shown that go-to scorer bruisers will probably always have a place in a grind-it-out best of 7 series.

 

[Kingster]

"Sacramento moved the ball through the elbow more than anyone else, hitting that spot 20.4 times per game, blowing second place Memphis out of the water (17.3), and almost doubling the league median, 13.3. The majority of those possessions were directed through the incapable hands of Willie Cauley-Stein, 7.1 per contest. Even with his improved passing instincts, Willie’s strengths are by no means amplified in that position on the court."

All last season I was asking myself why the Kings were doing this. The only answer I could come up with was that Kings' org was constantly saying that this was the season for seeing what the young guys could do. They put WCS in the high post offense to maximize his touches. Just like in the summer league the Kings fed the ball continually to WCS to "see what he could do."

I think it's safe to say that the Kings organization thoroughly knows now what WCS can and cannot do on offense. Maybe they knew all along and just wanted to motivate him on defense by giving him more touches. I really don't know. In any case, the experiment needs to end. There is no way that WCS should be the focal point of any offense by any team in the NBA.

It would help the Kings to run the ball if they could rebound the ball. They were 2nd from the bottom in defensive rebounds last year. When they did get the defensive rebound, oftentimes they didn't quickly get the ball down the floor. It seemed like they were very indecisive in what to do, oftentimes standing around waiting for God knows what before handing it to a guard or dribbling themselves instead of firing an outlet pass up the court. Of course it helps to have players run up the court rather than jog. Overall, it was entirely frustrating to watch on many occasions. I grew up on UCLA fast breaks and these guys are just pathetic in comparison.

 

[HndsmCelt]

That may be true in the regular season but these playoffs have kinda shown that go-to scorer bruisers will probably always have a place in a grind-it-out best of 7 series.

That may be true, but Bigs who have poor lateral movement and just hang in the paint waiting are relics. Guys like Tristin Thompson, Roy Hibbert once ruled the paint on both ends but are actual defensive liabilities now. Modern bigs like Davis who pretty much single handedly decimated Portland are needed because of their ability to challenge shots away from the rim AND get back in the paint on time... different skill set. I am not saying bigs are done, but slow juggernauts on the offensive end give up too much where it means the most on defense now.

 

[Kingster]

That may be true, but Bigs who have poor lateral movement and just hang in the paint waiting are relics. Guys like Tristin Thompson, Roy Hibbert once ruled the paint on both ends but are actual defensive liabilities now. Modern bigs like Davis who pretty much single handedly decimated Portland are needed because of their ability to challenge shots away from the rim AND get back in the paint on time... different skill set. I am not saying bigs are done, but slow juggernauts on the offensive end give up too much where it means the most on defense now.

That's why Jackson Jr. is intriguing. He does seem to come out of nowhere to block shots on the perimeter. He's not just a big guy that stands in the paint and waits for opponents to come to him. I totally agree with the theme of your post. The NBA has changed and the role of the big man has changed. Not only do they have to be much more active on defense, but ideally they need to be able to shoot the 3 and post inside. To me, the demands on big men in the league are much greater than years gone by.

 

[Gliesian]

The article makes the case that Joerger should not have played Randolph over Skal due to big differences in their production. Also, Skal didn't get consistent minutes.

What I saw this season was Joerger playing Skal when the team was on an upswing during the game. As soon as things began to sour, he would yank him. Imo, the goal was to give Skal confidence. That's why his numbers were better than Randolph's, who had the exact opposite role. When things went bad, which was most of the time, give Randolph the ball.

You can use stats and analytics to make precise decisions based on dozens of variables. But the human brain uses hundreds or even thousands of variables to make a decision with less precision. Things are not always black and white. It remains to be seen if Joerger coaches a modern style.

 

[ESP47]

The article makes the case that Joerger should not have played Randolph over Skal due to big differences in their production. Also, Skal didn't get consistent minutes.

What I saw this season was Joerger playing Skal when the team was on an upswing during the game. As soon as things began to sour, he would yank him. Imo, the goal was to give Skal confidence. That's why his numbers were better than Randolph's, who had the exact opposite role. When things went bad, which was most of the time, give Randolph the ball.

You can use stats and analytics to make precise decisions based on dozens of variables. But the human brain uses hundreds or even thousands of variables to make a decision with less precision. Things are not always black and white. It remains to be seen if Joerger coaches a modern style.

That's true to an extent but he would also start Skal and Skal would score 8 points in the first quarter. Then he wouldn't put him back in until after halftime for another 7 minute run and that would be it for him.

As much as he may have been trying to protect Skal's confidence, he would also hurt it by killing his rhythm when he would be shaping up for a 20 point game.

 

[Gliesian]

That's true to an extent but he would also start Skal and Skal would score 8 points in the first quarter. Then he wouldn't put him back in until after halftime for another 7 minute run and that would be it for him.

As much as he may have been trying to protect Skal's confidence, he would also hurt it by killing his rhythm when he would be shaping up for a 20 point game.

But if the Kings were stinking it up in the 2nd quarter do you really want to challenge Skal with bringing them back? There were a few games where this wasn't the case, and that probably isn't good, but overall I think there was a trend.

 

[Suicide King]

I have been persevering on a thought ( a hope really ) that Coach Joerger is a deep thinker and has been coaching to truly teach specific fundamentals to these young players. That next season, will begin and end, like the end of this past season, with improvements and flourishes added.

That Coach is in fact adaptive, understands the players we currently have, and will adapt to our strengths as a fast, ball movement oriented team. A team that shoots very well from beyond the arc, but rarely went to this strength last season. Which needs to change.

That our perimeter defense will become a focus, as opposed to the GUARD THE PAINT ONLY (!) style we seemingly have been tattooed with on our franchise's soul for the past decade or so.

We should play at one of the quickest paces in the NBA with FOX and WCS especially and Buddy as a clutch shooter. Defense leads to fast break opportunities. In the paint as well as on the perimeter. Rebound, defend at a high level, and run. Half court? Ball movement. and cutters, yet not burning the shot clock up. Get your 5 guys in an opportunity to score in the half-court tempo quickly, so you can defend if you make or miss, and get another shot quickly. Play smarter, and harder.

 

[Kingster]

Guarding the paint is easier than guarding your man at the 3 point line. Jogging back on defense is easier than sprinting to prevent layups and 3 point shots. If you seriously look at past games you'll see a multitude of times an opponent gets a defensive rebound, which causes Kings' players to look around to figure out how fast they need to run back to the basket instead of sprinting to the basket. In some cases, they'll do the old "hesitation move" after the opponent gets a rebound before sprinting up the floor. It was embarrassing. What gets me is that these same guys must not be embarrassed when it's shown to them on film. They just continue to do it. Too many times last year the Kings just strolled through games, not exerting maximum effort or having their heads in the game. It just can't happen next year. Instead of talking about playing hard, they have to play hard every game. Otherwise, they are going to have to sit on the bench or be traded.

 

[ESP47]

I have been persevering on a thought ( a hope really ) that Coach Joerger is a deep thinker and has been coaching to truly teach specific fundamentals to these young players. That next season, will begin and end, like the end of this past season, with improvements and flourishes added.

That Coach is in fact adaptive, understands the players we currently have, and will adapt to our strengths as a fast, ball movement oriented team. A team that shoots very well from beyond the arc, but rarely went to this strength last season. Which needs to change.

That our perimeter defense will become a focus, as opposed to the GUARD THE PAINT ONLY (!) style we seemingly have been tattooed with on our franchise's soul for the past decade or so.

We should play at one of the quickest paces in the NBA with FOX and WCS especially and Buddy as a clutch shooter. Defense leads to fast break opportunities. In the paint as well as on the perimeter. Rebound, defend at a high level, and run. Half court? Ball movement. and cutters, yet not burning the shot clock up. Get your 5 guys in an opportunity to score in the half-court tempo quickly, so you can defend if you make or miss, and get another shot quickly. Play smarter, and harder.

Yeah I watched a few of these combine interviews with the big men talking about how they are working hard toward adapting to the new NBA. How they need to stay lean but keep their strength. How they need to work on their outside shooting and lateral quickness to keep up on switches. These guys get it, there's no stubbornness to their game.

I just hope Joerger gets it in the same way these 19 and 20 year olds get it. I really hope he sees where the league is headed and is willing to adapt to it. If he turns out to be a stubborn dinosaur, it's just going to be another handful of wasted years and another awful coaching decision.

If we can see what's going on, then the coaching staff knows 10x as much as we do. The only problem lies in whether Joerger is stubborn or not. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that the Kings perimeter defense has been awful for years and they've basically ran the same style of defense since Westphal was here. They have to know this and the only reason I can come up with for why it hasn't changed is pure stubbornness. Someone must think that sagging in the paint off of 3 point shooters and rarely switching is the way to go. That worked back in 1995 but this isn't 1995 anymore so it's time to change.

 

[ockingsfan]

This may be a case where the GM needs to step in and take away the coach's "safety blanket", ZBo.

Clearly, Vlade is constructing a fast paced NBA 3.0 roster, yet the coach keeps slowing it down.

Coach preached run, run, run in the pre-season, then the season came along and everything went to a screeching halt and slow down, with the offense going through ZBo a lot of the time.

I think that since coach can't help himself, but to go back to his saftey blanket, ZBo, Vlade needs to find a trade where he can trade ZBo to a team needing to salary dump a larger contract and the Kings can pick up a future 1st round pick or young asset in the process (i.e. Washington's Mahmi or a Portland salary dump).

Without ZBo to reach back to, Joeger will be forced to run the young guys and speed up the pace. I think the young guys will flourish in a fast paced, uptempo offense.

I think Joeger can still be a coach of a fast paced offense, but Vlade needs to either trade or buy out ZBo to force Joeger to comply to the roster he constructed.

 

[EIM86]

I been saying Joerger is a terrible offensive coach in the modern NBA. My first game at the new arena and Fox was sitting on the corner all game, I instantly knew Joerger was not the right coach for this team.

 

[kingsboi]

I been saying Joerger is a terrible offensive coach in the modern NBA. My first game at the new arena and Fox was sitting on the corner all game, I instantly knew Joerger was not the right coach for this team.

you don't believe Joerger is willing to adapt to the new style of basketball being played?

 

[sactowndog]

you don't believe Joerger is willing to adapt to the new style of basketball being played?

I think if Joerger ran and moved like most teams, Zach would have had a heart attack and died there on the court. No one wanted to see that!

 

[kingsboi]

I think if Joerger ran and moved like most teams, Zach would have had a heart attack and died there on the court. No one wanted to see that!

maybe by "taking the training wheels off" he meant picking up the pace?