[Grades] Grades v. Warriors 10/29/2014

[pshn80]

At some point, we're going to have to go over what a motion offense actually is. But in general, no matter the type of motion offense we might run, it's not going to be Cuz who's going to be cutting/slashing all over the offensive end. What you'd want to look for is movement/cutters/spacing off Cuz, or off Rudy, our focal points.

There basically was none. I know it's become popular to single in on Cuz and Rudy and their jacking up shots as not buying into the "motion" offense, but it really is the wrong way to be looking at this. A motion offense will consist of movement which takes advantage of the attention they draw, usually with weak-side misdirection and movement. The large majority of the time either had the rock, guys stood and watched. That is what should be worrying everyone. Passing the ball to Sessions/JT/Ben/Landry/Evans/etc just for the hell of it, doesn't equate to good ball movement or a motion offense, nor is it really a good idea for sets to be ending with those guys having the rock.

Maybe I'll dig up some of the videos I posted a while back showing various sets we used to run under Rick, but the first thing people would notice is when we had Webber or Vlade at the high-post, the "motion" came from the screens/cutters/misdirection off them, almost always with better spacing than we show. When we had Bibby or Doug in a P&R situation up top, we were running off the ball flares/cuts off multiple screens for a guy like Peja to get open. If it was Webber on the wing, he'd often play a two man game with Peja or Bibby off their movement while on the weakside we'd have Doug diving. It was both strong and weakside movement, ala the Spurs. The whole point of off the ball movement is to create options, multiple options. No movement, poor spacing, there's not going to be any options. That's our issue. That's quite worrying in regards to Malone's coaching acumen as well given these guys looked like they've never played together after a full training camp. We're not even getting Cuz and Rudy the ball in good spots. Actually, for some reason I can't figure out, we're giving Reggie freaking Evans the ball in the high-post and running cutters off him far more than we do with Cuz, which makes no sense at all.

This in no way a Cuz issue for not buying in or "trying" hard enough. Bogut is a tough matchup for him. And as far as Cuz and Rudy go in this "motion" offense, first thing to look for is the movement and options off them. When the movement/options aren't there, it's an issue with our system and roster construction.

At some point, we're going to have to go over what a motion offense actually is. But in general, no matter the type of motion offense we might run, it's not going to be Cuz who's going to be cutting/slashing all over the offensive end. What you'd want to look for is movement/cutters/spacing off Cuz, or off Rudy, our focal points.

There basically was none. I know it's become popular to single in on Cuz and Rudy and their jacking up shots as not buying into the "motion" offense, but it really is the wrong way to be looking at this. A motion offense will consist of movement which takes advantage of the attention they draw, usually with weak-side misdirection and movement. The large majority of the time either had the rock, guys stood and watched. That is what should be worrying everyone. Passing the ball to Sessions/JT/Ben/Landry/Evans/etc just for the hell of it, doesn't equate to good ball movement or a motion offense, nor is it really a good idea for sets to be ending with those guys having the rock.

Maybe I'll dig up some of the videos I posted a while back showing various sets we used to run under Rick, but the first thing people would notice is when we had Webber or Vlade at the high-post, the "motion" came from the screens/cutters/misdirection off them, almost always with better spacing than we show. When we had Bibby or Doug in a P&R situation up top, we were running off the ball flares/cuts off multiple screens for a guy like Peja to get open. If it was Webber on the wing, he'd often play a two man game with Peja or Bibby off their movement while on the weakside we'd have Doug diving. It was both strong and weakside movement, ala the Spurs. The whole point of off the ball movement is to create options, multiple options. No movement, poor spacing, there's not going to be any options. That's our issue. That's quite worrying in regards to Malone's coaching acumen as well given these guys looked like they've never played together after a full training camp. We're not even getting Cuz and Rudy the ball in good spots. Actually, for some reason I can't figure out, we're giving Reggie freaking Evans the ball in the high-post and running cutters off him far more than we do with Cuz, which makes no sense at all.

This in no way a Cuz issue for not buying in or "trying" hard enough. Bogut is a tough matchup for him. And as far as Cuz and Rudy go in this "motion" offense, first thing to look for is the movement and options off them. When the movement/options aren't there, it's an issue with our system and roster construction.

Thanks. Motion offense discussion.

Couple of things. I don't know a motion offense very well but I do know that any offense involves all five players.

A second point and may be it should be the main point I was talking about. Bogut and the Warrioss threw a tough defenxe against Cuz. Surprise? No. We all knew that was coming last night. Cuz lost severely to it. How could that happen when the whole world knew it was coming? Cuz and Malone could have easily countered that in pre game planning. I won't bother to explain that to you because you understaqnd it betterr than I. Cuz lost twicee to it - once through blocked or poor shot and once because it got into his head. Both losers for us.

Become popular to get on Cuz's case? Does that mean you are on Cuz's case? When your best player is blocking progress you have a problem.

 

[bajaden]

Not really no. There really wasn't a part of his defensive game that didn't look bad. He got beat with quickness as well as strength.

I have no idea what you were watching! And I mean that with all sincerity. Nik played pretty darned good defense overall. If you can't see that, then I've lost all respect for your judgement. Nik's problem came when the Warriors started posting him up. His lack of experience, and strength hurt him. But it wasn't for lack of effort on his part. Three times during that game that I counted, Nik switched when his teammate got caught in a screen, and his teammate, instead of moving to cover Nik's man, came back to his own man hanging Nik out to dry. To say he made some mistakes is one thing, but to say that no part of his defense looked good, is ridiculous.

 

[VF21]

I have no idea what you were watching! And I mean that with all sincerity. Nik played pretty darned good defense overall. If you can't see that, then I've lost all respect for your judgement. Nik's problem came when the Warriors started posting him up. His lack of experience, and strength hurt him. But it wasn't for lack of effort on his part. Three times during that game that I counted, Nik switched when his teammate got caught in a screen, and his teammate, instead of moving to cover Nik's man, came back to his own man hanging Nik out to dry. To say he made some mistakes is one thing, but to say that no part of his defense looked good, is ridiculous.

VF21 agrees with this assessment. Nik wasn't perfect but part of the problem should be put on the random nature of a lot of our defensive schemes.

 

[randymoss1881]

Fire Sale - make me an offer!
Ben McLemore
Derrick Williams
Jason Thompson

Mayo or knight/ Illyasova hopefully by February Bucks still take the trade.

 

[jcassio]

Mayo or knight/ Illyasova hopefully by February Bucks still take the trade.

I think in the case of the three in my fire sale, we'd actually be better by subtraction.
There were lots of Kings performances last night that left a lot to be desired. But a bad shooting night always exaggerates a team's problems. So I think everyone not in my fire sale still has "potential" (even Sessions). But I have no confidence that these three are going to become productive NBA players. At least not as Kings under Malone's direction.
And God Save Us from the Jason Thompson apologists!

 

[Livinthedream]

I have no idea what you were watching! And I mean that with all sincerity. Nik played pretty darned good defense overall. If you can't see that, then I've lost all respect for your judgement. Nik's problem came when the Warriors started posting him up. His lack of experience, and strength hurt him. But it wasn't for lack of effort on his part. Three times during that game that I counted, Nik switched when his teammate got caught in a screen, and his teammate, instead of moving to cover Nik's man, came back to his own man hanging Nik out to dry. To say he made some mistakes is one thing, but to say that no part of his defense looked good, is ridiculous.

I didn't notice the switching issues, but that can be cleaned up.

What the Kings did with Ben guarding Klay was for Ben to stay up on Klay and force him to drive. Once he did, Cuz or JT would help out. Klay couldn't get consistent separation from Ben and wasn't comfortable when he tried to post him up.

Nik moved his feet and did fine when he was faced up with Klay because that game plan came into play. Where Nik got in trouble is when Klay ran off screens a got separation from Nik. Now defenders had to step out and assist at 18 feet out instead of in the lane. Defenders were out of position. One or two passes later Warriors have an easy score. Nik wasn't able to stop Klay from posting up either.

It's not always how many points your man scores on you specifically or whether you understand the fundamentals of defense. Not being able to physically keep pace can break down a whole defensive game plan. Warriors exploited this.

 

[hrdboild]

Mayo or knight/ Illyasova hopefully by February Bucks still take the trade.

I think that ship has sailed. Knight and Mayo have been playing better in pre-season anyway and getting Sanders back along with Giannis and Jabari means they'll probably be competitive in the East this year. In their first game they took a pretty good Charlotte team into OT on the road.

 

[The_Jamal]

I gave Boogie a C, but with a caveat. I don't know how much of it came across on TV, but he was being used as a tackle dummy most of the night. He was goosed numerous times by Bogut, along with other "contact" that was simply not cool. The refs just pretty much turned a blind eye - until part of the crowd chanted "I am blind and I can't see, I should be a referee." I think it was part of the Crown Downtown crowd that we were sitting right next to. Oddly enough, the very next foul was called in Boogie's favor.

Cousins deserves a big A for not totally losing his cool, ripping someone's arms off and beating them to death. It is very clear that he has worked incredibly hard on keeping his cool. Since, as Brick said, Bogut is about the biggest thorn in the side Boogie will face this year, this is a good sign.

It was a dirty, dirty game. Steph Curry was jumping up and down on the sidelines like it was game 6 of the WCF instead of opening night. There were nowhere near as many Warriors fans as in years previous, but it was interesting that they were pretty quiet for the most part until about half-way through the 4th quarter.

I've had it with Jason Thompson. No more excuses from me and no more passes. He was a whiny cry-baby all night and it was embarrassing. I was hoping someone would find a way to get Brad Miller to suit up just for the night since he was there anyway. If we're gonna have to put up with a whiny cry-baby, I'd rather it be one with talent.

I don't know if it came across on the TV, but Eric Moreland is a great bench guy - always encouraging his teammates and even going out to meet DMC coming back to the bench after a particularly egregious foul against him that was, of course, not called.

I'll restate what I've said elsewhere - IMHO our need for starting NOW talent at the 2 and 4 is paramount.

Oh yeah...one more thing? Landry didn't exactly suck.

2 of the biggest plays in this game I thought were when Boogie had to come out early after picking up stupid reach in fouls, especially in the third quarter. Those were critical parts of the game and parts we simply could not afford to have our best player off the floor. If Boogie wants to mentioned in the same breath as Bron, Durant, Davis, etc, then he needs to learn that taking himself out of the game just kills our chances of winning games. I didn't time it exactly, but he was probably off the floor for a good 6 minutes of critical game time last night when he should have still been playing.

So while yes, I commend him for keeping the cool vs Bogut's dirty play, him taking that to the next level and not picking up dumb frustration fouls is what we need to see.

 

[Padrino]

2 of the biggest plays in this game I thought were when Boogie had to come out early after picking up stupid reach in fouls, especially in the third quarter. Those were critical parts of the game and parts we simply could not afford to have our best player off the floor. If Boogie wants to mentioned in the same breath as Bron, Durant, Davis, etc, then he needs to learn that taking himself out of the game just kills our chances of winning games. I didn't time it exactly, but he was probably off the floor for a good 6 minutes of critical game time last night when he should have still been playing.

So while yes, I commend him for keeping the cool vs Bogut's dirty play, him taking that to the next level and not picking up dumb frustration fouls is what we need to see.

this is worth pointing out, but i wonder if kings fans can recall how demarcus picked up what i believe was his third foul; ben mclemore decided to hoist a three-pointer early in the shot clock, which he unsurprisingly missed, and demarcus was the only king back on defense. he proceeded to commit a foul in order to save a basket. it was a heads-up play. the reach-ins are certainly the opposite, of course. DMC is foul-prone. we know that. he has to work on it. but this team just doesn't get it. not yet, anyway. until they stop playing like five individuals tethered to one another and pulling in separate directions, there's not much hope for success. granted, it was the first game of the season, and there are going to be a lot of growing pains in pursuit of a less selfish style of basketball...

 

[pshn80]

I think in the case of the three in my fire sale, we'd actually be better by subtraction.
There were lots of Kings performances last night that left a lot to be desired. But a bad shooting night always exaggerates a team's problems. So I think everyone not in my fire sale still has "potential" (even Sessions). But I have no confidence that these three are going to become productive NBA players. At least not as Kings under Malone's direction.
And God Save Us from the Jason Thompson apologists!

God is good but not that good. Jason gets the smallest number of touches other than rebounds
Of anyone on the team and its been so for years. We'd be better off nvolving him more. He's only average but he is treated like he is dirt. Use him or trade him.

 

[VF21]

2 of the biggest plays in this game I thought were when Boogie had to come out early after picking up stupid reach in fouls, especially in the third quarter. Those were critical parts of the game and parts we simply could not afford to have our best player off the floor. If Boogie wants to mentioned in the same breath as Bron, Durant, Davis, etc, then he needs to learn that taking himself out of the game just kills our chances of winning games. I didn't time it exactly, but he was probably off the floor for a good 6 minutes of critical game time last night when he should have still been playing.

So while yes, I commend him for keeping the cool vs Bogut's dirty play, him taking that to the next level and not picking up dumb frustration fouls is what we need to see.

Finally, something we can agree on.

 

[kingsboi]

27 turnovers tells me all I need to know...good god so sloppy and careless. It's troubling.

 

[ElRey]

I think in the case of the three in my fire sale, we'd actually be better by subtraction.
There were lots of Kings performances last night that left a lot to be desired. But a bad shooting night always exaggerates a team's problems. So I think everyone not in my fire sale still has "potential" (even Sessions). But I have no confidence that these three are going to become productive NBA players. At least not as Kings under Malone's direction.
And God Save Us from the Jason Thompson apologists!

Yes! Kings need to get rid of our low Bball IQ players : JT and McLemore. Addition by subtraction. Or at least get them out of the stinking STARTING lineup in the meantime!

 

[sdballer]

For all of the complaining about low bball iq, part of the bigger problem is we have no real system, on either end of the court. That forces everyone to basically have to improvise and that shines a major light on those less capable of "thinking".

Put those same guys in a more structured system with defined roles and suddenly there is a much higher likelihood that they can contribute.

 

[VF21]

For all of the complaining about low bball iq, part of the bigger problem is we have no real system, on either end of the court. That forces everyone to basically have to improvise and that shines a major light on those less capable of "thinking".

Put those same guys in a more structured system with defined roles and suddenly there is a much higher likelihood that they can contribute.

But maybe what we see is no system because the players aren't smart enough to absorb the complexities. We still have a majority of players who could find luxury accommodations on the Island of Lost Toys. They don't fit well together and for that reason there may not be a system that could encompass their "talents."

 

[sdballer]

But maybe what we see is no system because the players aren't smart enough to absorb the complexities. We still have a majority of players who could find luxury accommodations on the Island of Lost Toys. They don't fit well together and for that reason there may not be a system that could encompass their "talents."

Possibly. All I know is there are plenty of guys in the league that looked lost until they got to better systems.

 

[kingsnation]

For all of the complaining about low bball iq, part of the bigger problem is we have no real system, on either end of the court. That forces everyone to basically have to improvise and that shines a major light on those less capable of "thinking".

Put those same guys in a more structured system with defined roles and suddenly there is a much higher likelihood that they can contribute.

There's a problem on both ends. There's a stupid system, and there's alot of low bbiq. Combine them and you get what you have coming to you.

 

[kingsnation]

Possibly. All I know is there are plenty of guys in the league that looked lost until they got to better systems.

One player many are referencing is JT. He has now played in approx. 4-5(?) different systems. He has always showed a tendency to play dumb despite the system. Granted, we've had quite a few terrible coaches during his tenure but alot of the decisions he makes are not system-based, they're choice-based. He just makes stupid choices on the court.

 

[jcassio]

For all of the complaining about low bball iq, part of the bigger problem is we have no real system, on either end of the court. That forces everyone to basically have to improvise and that shines a major light on those less capable of "thinking".

Put those same guys in a more structured system with defined roles and suddenly there is a much higher likelihood that they can contribute.

Rick Adelman had a system that got the best out of his players - assuming he gave them floor time. But those kind of coaches are rare. I haven't decided if Malone deserves to be the Kings coach or not. But if he doesn't show us something this year, I'm done with him.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Rick Adelman had a system that got the best out of his players - assuming he gave them floor time. But those kind of coaches are rare. I haven't decided if Malone deserves to be the Kings coach or not. But if he doesn't show us something this year, I'm done with him.

Well if he keeps electing to play Derrick Williams and keeps using small ball lineups then i think we will have an answer pretty soon here.

Would also be nice if he would stop pulling all 5 starters at the same time

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

For all of the complaining about low bball iq, part of the bigger problem is we have no real system, on either end of the court. That forces everyone to basically have to improvise and that shines a major light on those less capable of "thinking".

Put those same guys in a more structured system with defined roles and suddenly there is a much higher likelihood that they can contribute.

I'm still halfway convinced that "low bball iq" is just the new shorthand for "that player I don't like."

 

[KingMilz]

I'm still halfway convinced that "low bball iq" is just the new shorthand for "that player I don't like."

No it's not, you can't tell me Rudy Gay, Ben Mclemore and Derrick Williams are not low IQ players, they never make any play that makes there team better, Rudy Gay is literally on the level of JR Smith when it comes to shot selection for the majority of his career (it just he's physically so talented every now and than he makes those). Players that for no reason make consistently dumb choices and plays are low IQ players and we have had a surplus of those for a long time. How can you actually have a "system" when so many of these players have no idea wtf they are doing aside from relying on there natural athletic ability.

 

[The_Jamal]

I have no idea what you were watching! And I mean that with all sincerity. Nik played pretty darned good defense overall. If you can't see that, then I've lost all respect for your judgement. Nik's problem came when the Warriors started posting him up. His lack of experience, and strength hurt him. But it wasn't for lack of effort on his part. Three times during that game that I counted, Nik switched when his teammate got caught in a screen, and his teammate, instead of moving to cover Nik's man, came back to his own man hanging Nik out to dry. To say he made some mistakes is one thing, but to say that no part of his defense looked good, is ridiculous.

Agreed here. Especially going up against Klay Thompson, who's not just an athlete but one of the better skilled offensive scorers in the game today. As you said, plenty of little errors you can nit-pik, but all in all, a decent enough debut for him.

At any rate, perimeter defense is the hardest thing to learn in the NBA coming in as a rookie. NO ONE is a good defender, but a lot of being a good perimeter defender is understanding the guys you're defending and their tendencies. And there's also the fact that jump in athleticism from college to NBA wing players is absolutely insane, especially in today's NBA

I care much more about growth in Nik's defensive game than I do where he is right now.

 

[Jeremy Fraser]

To ease spirits as Bill Walton University of Commentating alumni

 

[kennadog]

Well, opening night was great.....right up until the tailgate ended.

None of that game felt good, really. Rudy just seemed to still be in pre-season blah mode. Cousins did not have a good game, except I give him a ton of credit for not going ballistic the way he was being hacked and jumped on out there.

You know, I like Ben and, according to all reports, he works extremely hard. But I just don't think he's ever going to be very good. He just doesn't seem to have a good feel for the game (BBIQ?). DWill just doesn't have much and I'm done hoping for much out of him.

The defense was improved for this one night. But I was just appalled by the turnovers, the sloppiness. It was just sad and looked like no one knew what they were supposed to do on offense. Plays? There are plays? So much for our new assistant head coach, whose supposed to be the offensive specialist, I thought.

It was just a very dispiriting game for this Kings fan. We have a really hard schedule to start this season. I hope something starts to click for these guys. I just sit in the stands. Those poor guys have to be out there on the court.

 

[Livinthedream]

I would like someone to definitively tell me how bbiq is measured. I've never seen test results. IQ also insinuates that it is something you're born with that can neither be lowered or improved.

I'd also like to know how Gay's bbiq seemed to increase last year with the Kings as well as on team USA, but has gone down this year and with Toronto last year.

I just can't seem to nail down this bbiq thing.

 

[Albatros]

It's still only one game.

I'll give it 10 games before I decide whether Rudy has decided to be Toronto Rudy again.

 

[Chubbs]

If I have to hear about bball IQ one more time... It's not a real thing you can measure. It's not an advanced stat. IQ, in the usual sense, is fixed. Yet apparently in basketball it goes up and down, sometimes from game to game. Somehow Rudy and Cousins were basketball genius' for team USA, but are too dumb to play once they put on a King's uniform.

It absolutely is code for "I don't like that guy. But instead of a coherent argument, I'm going to call him stupid." It's such a condemning statement. It implies that player is too dumb to play basketball and probably always will be. Sometimes a forced shot is just forced shot.

 

[King Baller]

2 of the biggest plays in this game I thought were when Boogie had to come out early after picking up stupid reach in fouls, especially in the third quarter. Those were critical parts of the game and parts we simply could not afford to have our best player off the floor. If Boogie wants to mentioned in the same breath as Bron, Durant, Davis, etc, then he needs to learn that taking himself out of the game just kills our chances of winning games. I didn't time it exactly, but he was probably off the floor for a good 6 minutes of critical game time last night when he should have still been playing.

So while yes, I commend him for keeping the cool vs Bogut's dirty play, him taking that to the next level and not picking up dumb frustration fouls is what we need to see.

This game flow illustrates what happened when Boogie went out in the 3rd--> http://popcornmachine.net/gf?date=20141029&game=GSWSAC

Courtesy of Popcornmachine.net

 

[Livinthedream]

If I have to hear about bball IQ one more time... It's not a real thing you can measure. It's not an advanced stat. IQ, in the usual sense, is fixed. Yet apparently in basketball it goes up and down, sometimes from game to game. Somehow Rudy and Cousins were basketball genius' for team USA, but are too dumb to play once they put on a King's uniform.

It absolutely is code for "I don't like that guy. But instead of a coherent argument, I'm going to call him stupid." It's such a condemning statement. It implies that player is too dumb to play basketball and probably always will be. Sometimes a forced shot is just forced shot.

And with this post, let's put thus bbiq thing to rest.