Chad Ford says Pacers and Kings discussing Jimmer Trade

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#61
#61
Kingster said:
He was a one-trick pony - driving the ball. Teams scouted him and adjusted. He didn't adjust in terms of improving his shooting skills.
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...and yet shot the second highest percentage of any SG in the NBA.

in fact his eFG% (taking into account threes) was still higher (.508) than either Kobe or Harden's (.504).

You know why he's scoring less points? Because his coach is an idiot, and plays in a backcourt full of small, selfish chuckers. When you have a guard with Reke's ball skills who shoots .478 from the field and only allow him to take 11.8 FGA a game, you are doing it wrong.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#62
#62
Bricklayer said:
...and yet shot the second highest percentage of any SG in the NBA.

in fact his eFG% (taking into account threes) was still higher (.508) than either Kobe or Harden's (.504).

You know why he's scoring less points? Because his coach is an idiot, and plays in a backcourt full of small, selfish chuckers. When you have a guard with Reke's ball skills who shoots .478 from the field and only allow him to take 11.8 FGA a game, you are doing it wrong.
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No matter how many times, you, I or anyone else explains that, we get the same exact argument in return and have for well over a year. Boils down to some just not knowing what they're watching and that is something which can't be fixed when your agenda is firmly set in place.

Anyone thinking it's just because defenses are sagging off him and he simply hasn't adjusted or improved, and that's all there is to it, show their basketball acumen with statements like that in the first place. The embarrassing thing is it's not national media types saying it who watch us two times per year, but rather fans who watch every Kings game.
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#63
#63
Bricklayer said:
...and yet shot the second highest percentage of any SG in the NBA.

in fact his eFG% (taking into account threes) was still higher (.508) than either Kobe or Harden's (.504).

You know why he's scoring less points? Because his coach is an idiot, and plays in a backcourt full of small, selfish chuckers. When you have a guard with Reke's ball skills who shoots .478 from the field and only allow him to take 11.8 FGA a game, you are doing it wrong.
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rainmaker said:
No matter how many times, you, I or anyone else explains that, we get the same exact argument in return and have for well over a year. Boils down to some just not knowing what they're watching and that is something which can't be fixed when your agenda is firmly set in place.


Anyone thinking it's just because defenses are sagging off him and he simply hasn't adjusted or improved, and that's all there is to it, show their basketball acumen with statements like that in the first place. The embarrassing thing is it's not national media types saying it who watch us two times per year, but rather fans who watch every Kings game.
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at this point, i'm convinced that kingster just enjoys playing the troll with respect to tyreke. he has yet to respond to numerous posts in numerous threads that challenge his assertions, but continues to repeat the same tired arguments, including a few that have been wholly debunked. that's classic troll behavior...
 
Big Cuz 15

Big Cuz 15

All-Star
#64
#64
Padrino said:
at this point, i'm convinced that kingster just enjoys playing the troll with respect to tyreke. he has yet to respond to numerous posts in numerous threads that challenge his assertions, but continues to repeat the same tired arguments, including a few that have been wholly debunked. that's classic troll behavior...
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thats why i have certain posters on my ignore list lol. i don't even c those posts
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#65
#65
Padrino said:
at this point, i'm convinced that kingster just enjoys playing the troll with respect to tyreke. he has yet to respond to numerous posts in numerous threads that challenge his assertions, but continues to repeat the same tired arguments, including a few that have been wholly debunked. that's classic troll behavior...
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Probably. At least others on his side of the argument at least attempt to counter various arguments and attempt to show why they feel a certain way. It's different when you repeatedly ignore responses only to show up a week or two later and say they same thing, disappear, come back and do it again, rinse and repeat. He has yet to attempt to respond to numerous posts pointing out his flawed argument, which is why some just stopped wasting their time, unless his counter is Reke is terrible on the fast break, which again has been shown to be a flawed argument.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#66
#66
Bricklayer said:
...and yet shot the second highest percentage of any SG in the NBA.

in fact his eFG% (taking into account threes) was still higher (.508) than either Kobe or Harden's (.504).

You know why he's scoring less points? Because his coach is an idiot, and plays in a backcourt full of small, selfish chuckers. When you have a guard with Reke's ball skills who shoots .478 from the field and only allow him to take 11.8 FGA a game, you are doing it wrong.
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Yep, which is why I suggested in my post that the "teams figured him out" critique made sense only for years 2-3 (where his eFG% declined from .473 in season 1 to .432 and .464, respectively). This last season, efficiency numbers were up but shots attempted and minutes were way down.
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#68
#68
rainmaker said:
No matter how many times, you, I or anyone else explains that, we get the same exact argument in return and have for well over a year. Boils down to some just not knowing what they're watching and that is something which can't be fixed when your agenda is firmly set in place.
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Ditto from our end. It's always everyone elses fault but the player. I don't think your assessment is incorrect, I just believe you have a different view, and for you to say that you're right and the people that argue against you are wrong is just close minded on your part. You cannot accept that other people have a different view on the same subject so they must be wrong eh? In the case of Evans there is no clear cut right and wrong answer.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#69
#69
HereWeVivek said:
being misused
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Also being "misused" in his rookie year. The team goal quickly became having Tyreke win the ROY at the cost of anything including team play, winning, etc. The effort worked but not necessarily to the benefit of team development or the development of Tyreke himself. Just a view from memory.
 
Big Cuz 15

Big Cuz 15

All-Star
#70
#70
i am curious how our players would play under better coaching. if reke, cousins, jimmer etc were on lets say the spurs .. would they be better or just on par with what they are doing here.
 
HereWeBoogie

HereWeBoogie

Hall of Famer
#71
#71
Gary said:
It seems that all underachieving players were misused and the others that were doing well were used properly eh? I think some of the blame goes onto the underachieving players. But that's probably just me saying that.
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well not every player was being moved around to 3 different positions and being used as a wing player when his strength is attacking the rim.

also, what players on this team were ever doing consistently well?
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#72
#72
Gary said:
Ditto from our end. It's always everyone elses fault but the player. I don't think your assessment is incorrect, I just believe you have a different view, and for you to say that you're right and the people that argue against you are wrong is just close minded on your part. You cannot accept that other people have a different view on the same subject so they must be wrong eh? In the case of Evans there is no clear cut right and wrong answer.
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I've long accepted people have a different view. I've also long accepted many with that view repeatedly fail to put their argument into a sound historical or statistical analysis, unlike the "other side". One side shows statistical analysis and comparisons to other similar players around the league as well as puts it into the context of systems and usage rate and surroundings. Then the other often responds with, well, Reke has tunnel vision and can't pass. That's not much of an argument and a general failure of a counter.

BTW, you're the one who grouped yourself with that group, not me, buddy.
 
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Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#73
#73
rainmaker said:
I've long accepted people have a different view. I've also long accepted many with that view repeatedly fail to put their argument into a sound historical or statistical analysis, unlike the "other side". One side shows statistical analysis and comparisons to other similar players around the league as well as puts it into the context of systems and usage rate and surroundings. Then the other often responds with, well, Reke has tunnel vision and can't pass. That's not much of an argument and a general failure of a counter.

BTW, you're the one who grouped yourself with that group, not me, buddy.
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A thousand times this.
 
R

realmustang5

Prospect
#74
#74
Not trying to troll but today I was at my relocation apt, my salesmen said kings and jazz are talking about a trade. Jimmer and 7 for Jefferson and jazz 21st? I think it makes sense for both teams and cousins an Jefferson would be best front court in nba
 
N

Nighthawk1

Starter
#75
#75
I must have gotten lost somewhere in between a trade rumor where we admit we flopped picking Jimmer and another discussion about Tyreke.

If trade Rumors are true, I welcome Snell to our team.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#76
#76
Nighthawk1 said:
I must have gotten lost somewhere in between a trade rumor where we admit we flopped picking Jimmer and another discussion about Tyreke.

If trade Rumors are true, I welcome Snell to our team.
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If we take Snell late in the first, who do we get with the 7th? We already have a serviceable pg in IT. We could get Zeller and Snell and fill out the roster if we think both will be starters. Or do we go with CJ and he and Reke are our starting guards? If we went this route, we would need to resign Aldrich I would think. Not against that.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#77
#77
realmustang5 said:
Not trying to troll but today I was at my relocation apt, my salesmen said kings and jazz are talking about a trade. Jimmer and 7 for Jefferson and jazz 21st? I think it makes sense for both teams and cousins an Jefferson would be best front court in nba
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Unfortunately that means your salesman doesn't have a really firm grasp of NBA economics or the calendar. Big Al is a free agent, and thus can't be traded until after the free agency period begins (July), and then only in a sign and trade. And he's due to be paid much MUCH more than Jimmer. $10+mil a season when he does get paid.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#78
#78
rainmaker said:
I've long accepted people have a different view. I've also long accepted many with that view repeatedly fail to put their argument into a sound historical or statistical analysis, unlike the "other side". One side shows statistical analysis and comparisons to other similar players around the league as well as puts it into the context of systems and usage rate and surroundings. Then the other often responds with, well, Reke has tunnel vision and can't pass. That's not much of an argument and a general failure of a counter.

BTW, you're the one who grouped yourself with that group, not me, buddy.
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I post numbers here all the time and they're shrugged off if they don't go along with the party view. I posted very clear numbers about how Reke is basically an at-rim and set-3 player scoring the ball. The rest of his shooting his horrible. The "response" i got was "Oh, those aren't relevant numbers. He doesn't need a mid-range game. Mid-range shots hurt the team. ". Their are certainly Reke trolls who can't accept his improvements, but their are plenty of Reke-apologists, who look for any reason to place blame elsewhere
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#80
#80
The_Jamal said:
I post numbers here all the time and they're shrugged off if they don't go along with the party view. I posted very clear numbers about how Reke is basically an at-rim and set-3 player scoring the ball. The rest of his shooting his horrible. The "response" i got was "Oh, those aren't relevant numbers. He doesn't need a mid-range game. Mid-range shots hurt the team. ". Their are certainly Reke trolls who can't accept his improvements, but their are plenty of Reke-apologists, who look for any reason to place blame elsewhere
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That's why I said many in that crowd, not all. I actually do appreciate the time you put into counter arguments about Reke, and although I don't agree many times your posts are much more thoughtful on the topic than simply saying he has tunnel vision or won't/can't pass. You do present your case well, whether or not I agree.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#81
#81
The_Jamal said:
I post numbers here all the time and they're shrugged off if they don't go along with the party view. I posted very clear numbers about how Reke is basically an at-rim and set-3 player scoring the ball. The rest of his shooting his horrible. The "response" i got was "Oh, those aren't relevant numbers. He doesn't need a mid-range game. Mid-range shots hurt the team. ". Their are certainly Reke trolls who can't accept his improvements, but their are plenty of Reke-apologists, who look for any reason to place blame elsewhere
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I think you are right in your observation. I don't remember if people said it was unimportant that he didn't have much of a mid range game but at this point I want him to get comfortable with shooting threes as that is a new skill of his. Other shots can come later. It is clear he isn't a perfect shooter but the stat that he was the second best shooting guard in the NBA impresses me and I wish it made a difference to you. What more do you want from a guy who was a one trick pony and now is trying to change that?
 
Padrino

Padrino

All-Star
#82
#82
The_Jamal said:
I post numbers here all the time and they're shrugged off if they don't go along with the party view. I posted very clear numbers about how Reke is basically an at-rim and set-3 player scoring the ball. The rest of his shooting his horrible. The "response" i got was "Oh, those aren't relevant numbers. He doesn't need a mid-range game. Mid-range shots hurt the team. ". Their are certainly Reke trolls who can't accept his improvements, but their are plenty of Reke-apologists, who look for any reason to place blame elsewhere
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the numbers are certainly relevant, but only insofar as they tell you exactly what kind of talent tyreke evans is today. when you have an elite slasher who is improving considerably from three-point range, it's hardly a knock that all he really has left to do to achieve full-blown stardom, offensively speaking, is develop a mid-range game. and given the effort he's already put into his outside shot, i don't know why there'd be any hesitation regarding his commitment to improving. he's a fourth-year, 23-year-old, 6'6", 220 lb monster of a guard who's posting career averages of 18/5/5 despite terrible franchise conditions that did some damage to his growth... and he hasn't even peaked yet...
 
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rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#83
#83
I think it's perfectly fine to point out Reke isn't a good mid range jump shooter or a good shooter off the dribble for that matter. And I'm in complete agreement he needs to continue working on that part of his game and given the improvements he made last year(set shot much better and form off the dribble was much better although his %'s weren't) I think at 23/24 it's fair to expect him to make some improvement there.

What I disagree with is that somehow tells how valuable Reke is or a mid range jumper is needed or there just won't be any space to operate. Space comes from surrounding Reke/Cuz with shooters along with correct movement. How many times last year did we have two players running to or occupying the same spot? Far too often and that has little to do with shooting. Cuz being able to operate out of the high post would make spacing even easier for a good coach as the defender can't sag off him clearing lanes to the hoop which Smart never took advantage of. Same thing Rick used to do with Webb/Vlade out high. It's not like Peja/Bibby were getting backdoors off their athleticism, it was spacing. Same thing Pop does with Duncan out high, opening lanes for Parker/Green/Leonard backdoor/baseline.

Reke with the ball in a good system likely is at or near 20/5/5 and doing it more efficiently than as a rookie with improved vision and an improved understanding of where to get guys the ball when defenses collapse. That's near or at All Star level, depending on the supporting cast as you're rarely an All Star if losing. A great mid range jumper isn't needed for that. All he needs is enough of a jumper to keep the defense honest, and we saw that the 2nd half of the season, teams didn't play off him as much. The spot up 3 is the most important shot for spacing in basketball, where 58% of his FG's from 20-24ft were assisted, which is a reverse from his first three years when he was better unassisted from three. That shows not only improvement, but improvement as it relates to spacing and fitting into a system, where spacing relies on the ability of your guards/wings to be able to hit a spot up 3 off a kick out/double.

So while I agree he should improve his mid range jumper, it's in no way vital and if he does add one it turns him from a near All Star level player to probably a top 3-5 SG in this league, especially with the best SG's being on their last legs right now.
 
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Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#84
#84
The_Jamal said:
I post numbers here all the time and they're shrugged off if they don't go along with the party view. I posted very clear numbers about how Reke is basically an at-rim and set-3 player scoring the ball. The rest of his shooting his horrible. The "response" i got was "Oh, those aren't relevant numbers. He doesn't need a mid-range game. Mid-range shots hurt the team. ". Their are certainly Reke trolls who can't accept his improvements, but their are plenty of Reke-apologists, who look for any reason to place blame elsewhere
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And I said that because its true.

Especially for the purposes you were aiming at. Midrange jumpers are not terribly helpful to teammates as they create neither space for inside guys nor bend/collapse the defense for perimeter guys. the defense doesn't have to move to defend those shots. Attacking the rim and spot shooting threes are much more useful traits for a perimeter player to have vis a vis his teammates. When you attack the rim it scrambles the whole defense, your own guy is moving trying to stop you, big guys have to step up and away from their post men, rotaters cave inward looking to help or get the rebound. It has a similar effect to big men posting up. Both are primary ways to bend the opposing team. And when you go looking for spacing, you are looking for a guy to spot up, stand still where you can find him, and catch and shoot off the catch to keep his man from doubling on you. Some little dude running down the court and chucking up a three off his own dribble 1 on 4 isn't doing anybody any good. Its the spot shooters that create space. Not by accident you saw so many of those guys in the Finals this year. Not that a normal fanbase sits around actually asking its star players to be space creaters themselves. That's what roleplayers are for.

And as far as scoring points itself, who cares? If Reke can get to the rim 10 times a game and score 20pts on layups, who on earth cares if he can't hit a 15 footer? He's still scoring 20. Its like people who used to critique Shaq for not having a jumper. Who cares? You go ahead and take your cute little Brad Miller guy, and I'll take my Shaq and have him dunk on your head a couple dozen times, lets see who wins.
 
Sac.1989

Sac.1989

Starter
#85
#85
id do this. Im very glad we for once are looking at doing something like this, its refreshing and theres clearly a few options out there which can help us moving forward
 
Fear the Putin

Fear the Putin

Starter
#87
#87
Bricklayer said:
And I said that because its true.

Especially for the purposes you were aiming at. Midrange jumpers are not terribly helpful to teammates as they create neither space for inside guys nor bend/collapse the defense for perimeter guys. the defense doesn't have to move to defend those shots. Attacking the rim and spot shooting threes are much more useful traits for a perimeter player to have vis a vis his teammates. When you attack the rim it scrambles the whole defense, your own guy is moving trying to stop you, big guys have to step up and away from their post men, rotaters cave inward looking to help or get the rebound. It has a similar effect to big men posting up. Both are primary ways to bend the opposing team. And when you go looking for spacing, you are looking for a guy to spot up, stand still where you can find him, and catch and shoot off the catch to keep his man from doubling on you. Some little dude running down the court and chucking up a three off his own dribble 1 on 4 isn't doing anybody any good. Its the spot shooters that create space. Not by accident you saw so many of those guys in the Finals this year. Not that a normal fanbase sits around actually asking its star players to be space creaters themselves. That's what roleplayers are for.

And as far as scoring points itself, who cares? If Reke can get to the rim 10 times a game and score 20pts on layups, who on earth cares if he can't hit a 15 footer? He's still scoring 20. Its like people who used to critique Shaq for not having a jumper. Who cares? You go ahead and take your cute little Brad Miller guy, and I'll take my Shaq and have him dunk on your head a couple dozen times, lets see who wins.
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you can't compare the two

First off, Shaq doesn't start from the perimeter and powers his way all the way through. He's a big man, so he plants his fat *** inside, seals 99% of the defenders off and rails the opponent a couple of feet to demolish him.

Reke starts from the 3 pt line and needs to work his way inside. Though Tyreke is an excellent penetrator, defenses can collapse and just make you take that J. That's why you need that jumpshot to make them honest and have that in the back of their head.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#90
#90
Fear the Putin said:
you can't compare the two

First off, Shaq doesn't start from the perimeter and powers his way all the way through. He's a big man, so he plants his fat *** inside, seals 99% of the defenders off and rails the opponent a couple of feet to demolish him.

Reke starts from the 3 pt line and needs to work his way inside. Though Tyreke is an excellent penetrator, defenses can collapse and just make you take that J. That's why you need that jumpshot to make them honest and have that in the back of their head.
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I think you're missing two points.

1) is the point I am making about Reke's game being naturally geared to creating for teammates. If indeed teams collapse on him, then yay, we just won. He broke your defense. That's my whole point about high end drivers -- they force the defense to collapse on them, and when they do that, all of a sudden Kings players are open all over the court same way they are with a Lebron or Wade or George or Parker.

2) even if we just stick to Reke scoring himself, where btw I don't think anybody disputes a jumper obviously would help, I will again point out that Reke had the second highest FG% of any SG, and a fairly low turnover rate given his handling responsibilities. What that tells me is that this teams collapse and stop him paradigm may exist more in fan theory than in fact, and that the second complaint that he makes bad decisions in those situations almost certainly does. If you're not missing shots nor turning it over excessively, one wonders where all this magical bad decisionmaking is being reflected. Or perhaps just perhaps one wonders just how much people need to take a fresh look at the way Reke plays the game today as opposed to as a 19yr old rookie.
 
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