Can We Show Some Love for Davion?

#31
In retrospect, it's now clear that Davion was NOT the best player available. So technically the Davion pick doesn't shed any light at all on the Taking The BPA Theory. Right now we would have to guess the BPA was either Sengun, Trey Murphy, or second rounder Herb Jones. Failure to identify BPA is what happened, and that's a different thing. Yes, a front office mistake, but a different type of mistake.

Perhaps the best test case of the Taking The BPA Theory the Kings have recently seen was Haliburton. And that worked out really well, though we had to trade him for the full benefit to come through. Skipping Hali to take say Nesmith or Poku because we already had Fox would have been a missed opportunity of epic proportions.
And we're perhaps the biggest caution case of all-time about "need over BPA" when we drafted Bagley over Luka because we believed Luka and Fox couldn't co-exist. Whoops.

It's just a draft miss, plain and simple. Thankfully, his other 2 FRP, have been absolute home-runs that have developed in foundational pieces for us.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#32
In retrospect, it's now clear that Davion was NOT the best player available. So technically the Davion pick doesn't shed any light at all on the Taking The BPA Theory. Right now we would have to guess the BPA was either Sengun, Trey Murphy, or second rounder Herb Jones. Failure to identify BPA is what happened, and that's a different thing. Yes, a front office mistake, but a different type of mistake.

Perhaps the best test case of the Taking The BPA Theory the Kings have recently seen was Haliburton. And that worked out really well, though we had to trade him for the full benefit to come through. Skipping Hali to take say Nesmith or Poku because we already had Fox would have been a missed opportunity of epic proportions.
All I think about when I see Davion is how much I wanted Sengun that year.
 
#34
I’m sure Monte knew they would only have 2 in short order. The bigger question to me is should a guy who has no path to start be taken with a top ten pick. Having said that, Monte has shown that he plans to mostly build through trades and that he largely sees draft picks outside of the top of the draft as ancillary pieces.
Although taking a limited point guard doesn't project well for a trade piece. For example, he's not a Dejounte Murray type of player. I think McNair knows that was the wrong pick
 
#38
Statistically, he had 3 teammates that looked just as good on defense as him and that team was outside of top20 in defense. He was name DPOY without merit, and Kings bought into that narrative. Evan Mobley (clearly the best defender on top10 defensive team), Deandre Williams (arguably best defender on the best defensive team) or Isaiah Jackson (Kentucky was so much worse defensively without him on the floor) were much more deserving.
Davion can't get separation 1-on-1 and his lack of shooting means defenders just go under the screen. But he shot 45% from 3 in college! Well, his FT shooting peaked at .677 as a freshman and actually declined, even though he had a year with nothing but practice when he red-shirted. And FTs are much better indication of touch.
23 y.o. at 6'2" with good but not outstanding defense and some suspicion of his shooting prowess...
 
#39
Statistically, he had 3 teammates that looked just as good on defense as him and that team was outside of top20 in defense. He was name DPOY without merit, and Kings bought into that narrative. Evan Mobley (clearly the best defender on top10 defensive team), Deandre Williams (arguably best defender on the best defensive team) or Isaiah Jackson (Kentucky was so much worse defensively without him on the floor) were much more deserving.
Davion can't get separation 1-on-1 and his lack of shooting means defenders just go under the screen. But he shot 45% from 3 in college! Well, his FT shooting peaked at .677 as a freshman and actually declined, even though he had a year with nothing but practice when he red-shirted. And FTs are much better indication of touch.
23 y.o. at 6'2" with good but not outstanding defense and some suspicion of his shooting prowess...
Everything your saying is true making him practically worthless on the block. Might as well just keep him and see if he turns it around.
 
#40

Woof. Not a great look for benching Huerter and Duarte showing up on this list. But another data point showing Davion's poor offense this season.
Yeah I brought up the 5 man ratings before. Not only did the 5 mans with Duarte drop almost double digits with him there instead of Huerter on offense but the defense even dropped a point. That might be lack of familiarity though more than Duarte because anyone could see he was playing better defense than Huerter on an individual level in terms of physicality and hustle.
 
#41
I feel like I had Moody and Jalen Johnson as my top picks in that draft.

I won't post who I wanted in other drafts because that would make me look bad.
I was pretty firmly Wagner or Moody, depending on who fell at our pick. I remember Capt really pounding the table for Johnson, probably the only one around here. And obviously there was some Sengun love, which has turned out great.
 
#42

Woof. Not a great look for benching Huerter and Duarte showing up on this list. But another data point showing Davion's poor offense this season.
Amazing how accurate the eye test can be. You can just feel this.

On the contrary, would be curious to see where Keon ranks, even though he's not considered an offensive "contributor". Our offense just flows though with him on the court.
 
#43
I root for Davion and appreciate what he is. It seems like he's has the intangibles you want in a player: determination, work ethic, fearless, and resilient. However, he can't shoot, he's too small, and his defense is about staying in front of a player rather than creating deflections. I think, best case, he could be an Alvarado or Jevon Carter type guard off the bench but neither of those two get a ton of run on their respective teams either so these types of guards just aren't that effective in today's game. His best bet might be finding his way to a team that has shooting at the 5 so that his lack of offense won't be as pronounced, or if he stays with the Kings, playing in lineups where Lyles is the 5. Other than that, 2 non shooters in a lineup is nearly impossible in this era.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#44
Maybe a “Can We Show Some Love for Davion?” thread
I like this. I think it better reflects my original intent. I probably just internalized all those appreciation threads and that's the word that appeared in my mind. @Capt. Factorial I would approve of using this as the new thread title instead. And I appreciate you for hearing me on this! :)
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#45
Can we just admit Davion is an example of taking the best player available theory to its absurd extreme?

Remember at the time we drafted Davion we had both Fox and Haliburton. If you go best player available that player has to have some chance of being better. Being better than two potential all NBA players was unlikely. Davion never got the chance to develop.

taking Davion in that spot was simply a horrible horrible draft pick.
I'm still going to disagree with this on the principle that we can't analyze picks and judge them as good or bad based on what we know now. That's a whole other thing (retrospect) which belongs in a separate category -- and even then it's too early to state anything definitively. The only fair way to go about analyzing decision-making is to look at what was known information at the time that the decision was made and what the plausible expected outcomes would be.

At the time we were a team badly in need of plus defenders at every position and Monte drafted two players who were elite defenders in college: Davion Mitchell in the first round and Neemias Queta in the second round. Monte did draft a third PG at 9th overall on a team that already had Fox and Haliburton -- that part is worth questioning -- but less than a year later he had traded Haliburton for a big man to balance the roster and Mitchell was not only entrenched as Fox's backup, some media personnel in Sacramento were calling for Mitchell to replace Fox as the starter prior to the Mike Brown hire.

Everything that has happened since then seems to be pointing to a Sacramento exit for Mitchell. Mike Brown immediately embraced Fox as his franchise player and Fox upped his performance on both ends of the floor to meet that challenge. Monk was brought in on a low-risk 2 year deal as a bench scorer and he proved that he deserves more minutes and more time with the ball in his hands. Huerter's effectiveness as a shooter vanished over the summer and as a result Coach Brown has pushed him to the bench cutting into Mitchell's playing time even more.

The part of this narrative that I disagree with though begins in that Golden State series last year when the Kings got off to a 2-0 series lead largely due to their surprising defensive intensity of which Davion Mitchell played a huge part. Then "The Stomp" happened, Domas was targeted for cheap shots under the basket for the rest of the series, Fox tried to play hurt, Mike Brown went away from what had been working, fell in love with 3pt shooting, and stopped calling on Mitchell entirely and (yada, yada, yada) here we are.

I wish we could just go back in time to Game 3 of that GS series and try the last 5 games of that series over again but without caving into GS' gameplan of trying to win in a shootout against two of the best shooters in NBA history. Something about the way that series ended seems to have broken something special with the Beam Team which hasn't really been fully repaired. The personality of this year's team is what's off -- we're way too boom or bust. We're way too committed to shooting ourselves in and out of leads. I think the benching of Davion has played a bigger role in that change than most realize. Mitchell's defense isn't about gambling for steals -- he plays a game of attrition, wearing guys down with relentless ball pressure. It's not nearly as effective when only deployed for 5-10 minutes per game. If he's going to be deployed effectively, he needs to be on the floor long enough for opposing guards to get worn down by his ball pressure. He needs to play alongside Monk and Fox in stretches and he needs to be on the floor in close games.
 
#46
I was pretty firmly Wagner or Moody, depending on who fell at our pick. I remember Capt really pounding the table for Johnson, probably the only one around here. And obviously there was some Sengun love, which has turned out great.
Yeah Wagner was my #1 with Moody #2. Both seemed like safe picks with Wagner more of a sure thing (didn't think he had the sort of upside he has now). Johnson was my high upside swing for the fences pick. I'll admit I thought Sengun had bust written all over him. Was definitely wrong there. I didn't pay much attention to Davion because I didn't think he was even on Monte's radar since he plays the point.
 
#47
I’m sure Monte knew they would only have 2 in short order. The bigger question to me is should a guy who has no path to start be taken with a top ten pick. Having said that, Monte has shown that he plans to mostly build through trades and that he largely sees draft picks outside of the top of the draft as ancillary pieces.
I kind of agree with your thoughts, but if true, is a wrong strategy.

Monte has had three lottery picks, and with the exception of Davion, nailed the other two. Given our needs and personnel, Davion didn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps the idea that we need a real defensive player in practice and in games to light some fire was behind the thought. While not a complete washout, Davion has not lived to the potential.

Going back to Monte, he gave up a FRP to get Kevin, and another to extend Domas. He has also not bothered to use some of our second round picks to try and build the back of the roster. He did manage to pick Keon and Colby (both of whom may be part of rotation soon), but Keon was undrafted. If some other GM had called dibs, we wouldn't have had him. So, while I give him a lot of credit, I also feel that he didn't consider Keon worth even a SRP.

Similarly, with Colby, he played dice while trading the FRP. Sure, he had the vision to move up in second round, but it was still a risky move. Plus, Colby has still to show anything in the big league.

One has to be super super lucky to get a Jokic or a Manu (or even a Whiteside) in the second round. However, successful teams often find contributors who can step up when the guy ahead is traded for a position of bigger need, or are part of a package to get some star. He probably thinks that getting a proven experienced contributor in the same price range as a lower FRP is easier. The latter is certainly more risky (and will take a longer time to deliver), but the potential upside is also higher.
 
#49
Or you just better be right he's a smash and you can trade him later. I still think you have to slam BPA, especially if your franchise is an asset accumulation mode (remember, Fox hadn't started fully breaking out yet as a superstar and Hali was still kind of a "super role player") after that first season. But the issue with Davion that's always lingered is he just never really had starter upside with us, even if he was good, just by the nature of him playing the same spot as Fox with not being versatile enough to fully move over to the 2.

We have a chance to correct the mistake and invest time into Keon though. In terms of a perimeter defender with size, he's pretty much the exact archetype that we're looking for.
no you aren’t correcting the mistake because you lost the opportunity to get a needed wing. I wanted to take a chance on Jalen Johnson and absolutely hated the pick at the time. Nothing since has changed my mind.

it’s hard to trade a smaller player that can’t get on the floor. It was a stupid ass pick. At least Monte, thank god, didn’t repeat it and drafted Keegan.
 
#50
In retrospect, it's now clear that Davion was NOT the best player available. So technically the Davion pick doesn't shed any light at all on the Taking The BPA Theory. Right now we would have to guess the BPA was either Sengun, Trey Murphy, or second rounder Herb Jones. Failure to identify BPA is what happened, and that's a different thing. Yes, a front office mistake, but a different type of mistake.

Perhaps the best test case of the Taking The BPA Theory the Kings have recently seen was Haliburton. And that worked out really well, though we had to trade him for the full benefit to come through. Skipping Hali to take say Nesmith or Poku because we already had Fox would have been a missed opportunity of epic proportions.
Sengun
Jalen Johnson
Trey Murphy

were all players we could have taken at the time.
 
#51
In retrospect, it's now clear that Davion was NOT the best player available. So technically the Davion pick doesn't shed any light at all on the Taking The BPA Theory. Right now we would have to guess the BPA was either Sengun, Trey Murphy, or second rounder Herb Jones. Failure to identify BPA is what happened, and that's a different thing. Yes, a front office mistake, but a different type of mistake.

Perhaps the best test case of the Taking The BPA Theory the Kings have recently seen was Haliburton. And that worked out really well, though we had to trade him for the full benefit to come through. Skipping Hali to take say Nesmith or Poku because we already had Fox would have been a missed opportunity of epic proportions.
Davion had fallen. Most mocks had him going earlier but Giddey, Kuminga and Wagner all went in order before him. At the time he was deemed the BPA which is exactly what the rainbow crowd said at the time. Monte in the press conference said he thought he could maybe guard 3’s. It was a Vlade level stupid statement.

the pick was horrible for Davion and for the Kings.
 
#52
I’m sure Monte knew they would only have 2 in short order. The bigger question to me is should a guy who has no path to start be taken with a top ten pick. Having said that, Monte has shown that he plans to mostly build through trades and that he largely sees draft picks outside of the top of the draft as ancillary pieces.
  • trading small for big is hard
  • Trading a player that can’t get on the floor is hard because he has 2 All NBA caliber players in front of him.

it was taking a strategy to its absurd extreme.
 
#55
I was pretty firmly Wagner or Moody, depending on who fell at our pick. I remember Capt really pounding the table for Johnson, probably the only one around here. And obviously there was some Sengun love, which has turned out great.
well I wanted Wagner and hoped he would fall to us. After him was Johnson. But I also wanted Bagley ;-)
 
#56
All I think about when I see Davion is how much I wanted Sengun that year.
That's interesting, because from what I see Sengun has not made the Rockets any better, at all. However, I can easily argue that Davion has been a major factor in the cultural shift of the Kings. And, they are a much better team since his arrival. Big Picture stuff... wins championships.
 
#57
That's interesting, because from what I see Sengun has not made the Rockets any better, at all. However, I can easily argue that Davion has been a major factor in the cultural shift of the Kings. And, they are a much better team since his arrival. Big Picture stuff... wins championships.
How do you figure Sengun hasn't made the Rockets any better? They are leaps and bounds better than they have been for the last few years. He's their Sabonis.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#59
A copycat league and you are seeing teams copy what Domas and the Kings do with him running the offense. Sengun is a right handed version of Domas for the most part. Even Embiid wants Philly to run more stuff like we do as he wants to be able to play like that. I’d go so far as to say without Sengun, Rockets will be a team that just chucks with iso plays.
 
#60
If i am the Kings, I would give up 1st round + Davion + Huerter for Tyus Jones + Kuzma. I think Tyus Jones is a hell of a player. The Grizzlies are not the same without him that's for sure. His ability to attack and do those drop shots is what the Kings needed for a backup PG.