Under the radar players worth a look

#91
Unless the Kings draft a Shooting Guard, the most important position in FA will be the SG.

For the Shooting Guard position, I think Gearld Henderson would be a nice pick up and potential long term starter at the Shooting Guard for the Kings.

The Kings should be targeting for Shooting Guard (in this order):

1) Courtney Lee (eases the Joerger transition)
2) Gearld Henderson
3) Aaron Afflalo

in Free Agency, IF they do not draft one at #8.
Whatever Kings do in the draft doesn't affect Kings' need for starting SG in the slightest: you can maybe count on your pick as a backup, but Kings already have 2 of those, and if Curry is retained, even 3.

1) Courtney Lee was passing up open 3s this season, and while he has solid percentages from outside, it's on just 3.3 attempts per 36 minutes, so '3' part of '3&D' is suspect. Kings can live with just respectable shooter as long as 'D' part is very good. But Lee turns 31 before the season starts, so decline in athleticism is about to hit. Plus Hornets (48 win team) have his Bird rights, and with some cap gymnastics: dumping Hawes/Lamb with pick #22 and renouncing Al Jefferson, they can squeeze cap holds of their core plus Lin's new deal under the cap.

2) Gerald Henderson is 28.5 y.o. and 7-year veteran, so there's no hidden potential, and he's just average on both sides of the floor. Solid backup, but starting guard?

3) Arron Afflalo is the same age as Lee, and is an average at best defender. Biggest problem is ever since Orlando stint he thinks he should be a scorer, rather than a role player.

Out of all 3 only Lee deserves real attention, and he will be the hardest to get.

Solomon Hill makes much more sense as his current team can't offer him good deal, and he's not likely to be someone else's top priority. He gives Kings same qualities, that Lee does: low-key role player, who defends, makes open shots and occasional drives/cuts here and there, runs transition, but Hill is younger (will only be 29 y.o. in 4 years) and a bigger body, so he can pick up forwards on D, and averages 2 more rebounds per 36 minutes than Lee.

Lance Stephenson makes no sense in the starting lineup due to lack of shooting, but if you put him between Curry/Collison, Casspi and, say, Teletovic with Koufos anchoring the defense, Kings might even put whole bench unit on the floor and not be run over. Not only Joerger, but core Grizzlies players asked their FO not to waive Lance in February, so with Conley saying, that he wants to see Memphis acquiring good players, not letting them go, it's not clear, whether Grizzlies will dump Lance. At the same time Stephenson said only a few days ago, that he would like to play out last year of his contract, so his agent certainly doesn't see serious money for Lance even on this crazy market, which means, Memphis might still waive him, and deadline for that is early in July, when teams are generally more optimistic about their chances to sign players, than subsequent future shows. Orlando, who almost got him at the trade deadline, were going to dump him immediately.
Lance and his delusions of grandeur are certainly a sizable risk, and coming off the bench for Grizzlies, he found himself in perfect situation being the undisputed leader of a band of scrubs, but still Joerger seems to have some rapport with Stephenson, plus 1.5 seasons of failure on 2 teams as a starter and then relative success off the bench likely shifted his expectations closer to reality.
 
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kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#92
Unless the Kings draft a Shooting Guard, the most important position in FA will be the SG.

For the Shooting Guard position, I think Gearld Henderson would be a nice pick up and potential long term starter at the Shooting Guard for the Kings.

The Kings should be targeting for Shooting Guard (in this order):

1) Courtney Lee (eases the Joerger transition)
2) Gearld Henderson
3) Aaron Afflalo

in Free Agency, IF they do not draft one at #8.
Aaron Afflalo? pass. What about Allen Crabbe and Harrison Barnes?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#93
I'd like to have Barnes, but then Gay becomes expendable, which is fine as long as the powers that be think he doesn't fit what kind of team the want to put together. Barnes is going to cost a chunk of money though. I'm not as high on Crabbe as some others. There's no doubt he can shoot the ball, but I'm not sold on his being a top defender. As I've stated before, I'd rather go after Kent Bazemore as long as the price is right. Also, Barnes is only 23 years old, so his best years are ahead of him. He had a somewhat up and down year last year, but I think there's still untapped potential there.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#94
Kings have a surplus of bench guards, despite a couple of opt-outs. Anyway I personally would like for Kings to start off-season for once with short open message to NBA FAs: "If you can't defend or play smart and unselfish on offense, please do not apply for the job!" And Crawford would be one of the first to turn around and look elsewhere.
Ditto!
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#95
If Kris Dunn somehow falls to the Kings then I think things fall into place pretty easily.

You let Rondo walk, you have Collison as the starting PG and Dunn as the backup PG

Now (assuming Butler opts out) the Kings have $28 million in cap room with the needs being:

(1) Starting SG which is far and away the biggest need
(2) Stretch 4
(3) 3rd string PG
(4) 3rd string SF
(5) 3rd string PF/C

I'd like to bring Curry back and either sign Ryan Anderson/Courtney Lee or Mirza Teletovic/Evan Fournier

With Fournier I'd really be looking for a KJ McDaniels, Raja Bell type signing - a young, unproven NBA player or a guy currently playing overseas that could come over and become the designated wing defender - possibly with the room exception if that's not used to bring back Curry or Acy. The last couple roster spots would get filled with minimum contract guys and possibly the late 2nd round pick.

Collison/Dunn/Curry
Fournier or Lee/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/minimum guy
Cauley-Stein/Anderson or Teletovic/Minimum guy
Cousins/Koufos/Minimum guy

is a pretty nice setup IMO.
 
#96
This will obviously depend on whether the front office wants to keep Rondo. If we don't then Batum should be #1 target for us. Can play both SG and SF and bring everything to the table. Defense, passing, ball handling, length, shooting, versatility. By far the best fit for this team.

Batum would fit no matter who the PG is. It's just that we can't afford him if we keep Rondo.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#97
Isaiah Whitehead: PG, 6'4.5" with shoes, 210 lbs, 6'8.75" wingspan, 8'4" standing reach, 35.5" max vertical.
32.3 mpg, - 18.2 ppg - 37.9% fgp - 36.5% 3pp - 3.6 rpg - 5.1 apg - 1.2 spg - 1.4 bpg.

Whitehead apparently has decided to stay in the draft and he currently projected to go somewhere in the middle of the 2nd round. I think he has first round talent, and one could argue it would have benefited him to go back to Seton Hall for his junior year. However if a team grabs him in the 2nd round, they might have a future starter down the road. (threw that in for Gilles:rolleyes:) Whitehead was largely responsible for Seton Hall beating Providence, and Kris Dunn twice, and upsetting Villanova in their third meeting of the year, after losing to Villanova by one point earlier in the season. Whitehead is a good, but not elite athlete. He's sneaky quick with hesitation moves and head fakes. He has a very quick first step, and had no problem creating his own shot. He handles the ball well. He has no problem getting to the basket, but does have a problem finishng, although he can finish with either hand.

He's a good three point shooter, when he takes good shots. Once again, he can create off the dribble from beyond the arc, but is inconsistent. When he's set and squared up, he's efficient. His passing was a little suspect his freshman year, but he was much better his sophmore year. He's an unselfish player and he has good court vision. Despite weighing 210 lbs, he needs to get stronger which will help him finish around the basket. He defended well last season and looks to be a player that could be a decent to good defender at the next level. At worse, I think he'll be a solid backup PG down the road, and if your lucky, he might be a starter. He was ranked the 11th best highschool player in the nation prior to his freshman year. I wonder where he would be ranked right now had he not rejected offers from Kentucky and a couple of other top schools. Here's a little video.


 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#98
If Kris Dunn somehow falls to the Kings then I think things fall into place pretty easily.

You let Rondo walk, you have Collison as the starting PG and Dunn as the backup PG

Now (assuming Butler opts out) the Kings have $28 million in cap room with the needs being:

(1) Starting SG which is far and away the biggest need
(2) Stretch 4
(3) 3rd string PG
(4) 3rd string SF
(5) 3rd string PF/C

I'd like to bring Curry back and either sign Ryan Anderson/Courtney Lee or Mirza Teletovic/Evan Fournier

With Fournier I'd really be looking for a KJ McDaniels, Raja Bell type signing - a young, unproven NBA player or a guy currently playing overseas that could come over and become the designated wing defender - possibly with the room exception if that's not used to bring back Curry or Acy. The last couple roster spots would get filled with minimum contract guys and possibly the late 2nd round pick.

Collison/Dunn/Curry
Fournier or Lee/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/minimum guy
Cauley-Stein/Anderson or Teletovic/Minimum guy
Cousins/Koufos/Minimum guy

is a pretty nice setup IMO.
I'm on board, get it done! :p
 
#99
If Kris Dunn somehow falls to the Kings then I think things fall into place pretty easily.

You let Rondo walk, you have Collison as the starting PG and Dunn as the backup PG

Now (assuming Butler opts out) the Kings have $28 million in cap room with the needs being:

(1) Starting SG which is far and away the biggest need
(2) Stretch 4
(3) 3rd string PG
(4) 3rd string SF
(5) 3rd string PF/C

I'd like to bring Curry back and either sign Ryan Anderson/Courtney Lee or Mirza Teletovic/Evan Fournier

With Fournier I'd really be looking for a KJ McDaniels, Raja Bell type signing - a young, unproven NBA player or a guy currently playing overseas that could come over and become the designated wing defender - possibly with the room exception if that's not used to bring back Curry or Acy. The last couple roster spots would get filled with minimum contract guys and possibly the late 2nd round pick.

Collison/Dunn/Curry
Fournier or Lee/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/minimum guy
Cauley-Stein/Anderson or Teletovic/Minimum guy
Cousins/Koufos/Minimum guy

is a pretty nice setup IMO.
Seems like a fine plan, but do you wait for Dunn to fall in your lap? Is it worth it to burn an asset or two to make sure you get your guy?

I'm thinking it would take something like Gay, Ben and 8 for 4 + ???
 
Sometimes finding a diamond in the rough (especially via the draft) requires looking whether guys could take on a different role. Football wise I think of Bruce Miller of the 49ers who played defensive end in college but was drafted in the NFL with the hope he could convert to fullback. And of course, he not only made the switch but played really well.

Likewise, Andre Roberson was a PF in college and three years into his career he's the starting SG for the Thunder. Sometimes it's about seeing what other people can't or won't.

Does IT's success make it easier for a team to have faith in Kay Felder? I see Cat Barber ahead of him on most mock drafts despite Felder clearly looking like the better player at the Combine. His stats are better too but that doesn't mean much with the gap in the level of competition but with Felder I saw a better playmaker, stronger defender and just as good a scorer. Barber comes from a bigger conference and is taller. I can't see any other rationale for taking him higher.
I am not convinced that Kay Felder lasts until pick 59 but if he does, we can do a LOT LOT worse than draft this kid. He has an accomplished game, despite his height. Very similar type of player to Isaiah, not so much because of his height but his offensive skill set as well.

I would be VERY happy with this pick in the 2nd round. He has genuine chance of securing a spot on the roster.
 
If Kris Dunn somehow falls to the Kings then I think things fall into place pretty easily.

You let Rondo walk, you have Collison as the starting PG and Dunn as the backup PG

Now (assuming Butler opts out) the Kings have $28 million in cap room with the needs being:

(1) Starting SG which is far and away the biggest need
(2) Stretch 4
(3) 3rd string PG
(4) 3rd string SF
(5) 3rd string PF/C

I'd like to bring Curry back and either sign Ryan Anderson/Courtney Lee or Mirza Teletovic/Evan Fournier

With Fournier I'd really be looking for a KJ McDaniels, Raja Bell type signing - a young, unproven NBA player or a guy currently playing overseas that could come over and become the designated wing defender - possibly with the room exception if that's not used to bring back Curry or Acy. The last couple roster spots would get filled with minimum contract guys and possibly the late 2nd round pick.

Collison/Dunn/Curry
Fournier or Lee/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/minimum guy
Cauley-Stein/Anderson or Teletovic/Minimum guy
Cousins/Koufos/Minimum guy

is a pretty nice setup IMO.
Getting Dunn is the very tricky part. I just can't see him falling past Minny. They have been looking to trade Rubio last seasons and I just think Dunn with that young core is an absolute slam dunk for the franchise. If Dunn falls to 8, it makes our off-season somewhat easier because it frees up a whole heap of salary cap to address other needs and not worry about getting a PG. If you don't get Dunn then you need some of that salary cap room to get a PG, whether that is re-signing Rondo or getting someone else. That severely limits us in addressing the rest of the needs.

As it is usually the case with the Kings, I wouldn't expect Dunn to slide to 8, which means we will draft someone else ready to play minutes straight away. This might allow us to trade one of the assets to address other needs. For example if we draft a wing that can play 20-25 minutes straight way (say a big C) then all of a sudden you might be able to trade Kosta to get another PG if you are not re-signing Rondo.

So much of out dealings in summer depend on that pick. If Dunn falls our way, all of a sudden our options open up brilliantly for us. If he doesn't, it becomes a challenge. I will be hoping that Dunn slips to us. Would make our life so much easier. Brown wouldn't be a bad get either. He could contribute straight away defensively and has some serious upside going forward but Dunn for us would be the prized get.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I'd like to have Barnes, but then Gay becomes expendable, which is fine as long as the powers that be think he doesn't fit what kind of team the want to put together. Barnes is going to cost a chunk of money though. I'm not as high on Crabbe as some others. There's no doubt he can shoot the ball, but I'm not sold on his being a top defender. As I've stated before, I'd rather go after Kent Bazemore as long as the price is right. Also, Barnes is only 23 years old, so his best years are ahead of him. He had a somewhat up and down year last year, but I think there's still untapped potential there.
Every time you say that, I have to think a moment. I always default to Mattie Barnes... :p
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
Getting Dunn is the very tricky part. I just can't see him falling past Minny. They have been looking to trade Rubio last seasons and I just think Dunn with that young core is an absolute slam dunk for the franchise. If Dunn falls to 8, it makes our off-season somewhat easier because it frees up a whole heap of salary cap to address other needs and not worry about getting a PG. If you don't get Dunn then you need some of that salary cap room to get a PG, whether that is re-signing Rondo or getting someone else. That severely limits us in addressing the rest of the needs.

As it is usually the case with the Kings, I wouldn't expect Dunn to slide to 8, which means we will draft someone else ready to play minutes straight away. This might allow us to trade one of the assets to address other needs. For example if we draft a wing that can play 20-25 minutes straight way (say a big C) then all of a sudden you might be able to trade Kosta to get another PG if you are not re-signing Rondo.

So much of out dealings in summer depend on that pick. If Dunn falls our way, all of a sudden our options open up brilliantly for us. If he doesn't, it becomes a challenge. I will be hoping that Dunn slips to us. Would make our life so much easier. Brown wouldn't be a bad get either. He could contribute straight away defensively and has some serious upside going forward but Dunn for us would be the prized get.
That is the exact reason why I am lead to believe that it won't happen...the stars do not align in Sacramento so Vlade and company have options 2, 3 and 4 stashed in their pockets just in case it doesn't pan out.
 
That is the exact reason why I am lead to believe that it won't happen...the stars do not align in Sacramento so Vlade and company have options 2, 3 and 4 stashed in their pockets just in case it doesn't pan out.
Agreed!

That is why I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if we ended up trading the pick.
 
If Kris Dunn somehow falls to the Kings then I think things fall into place pretty easily.

You let Rondo walk, you have Collison as the starting PG and Dunn as the backup PG

Now (assuming Butler opts out) the Kings have $28 million in cap room with the needs being:

(1) Starting SG which is far and away the biggest need
(2) Stretch 4
(3) 3rd string PG
(4) 3rd string SF
(5) 3rd string PF/C

I'd like to bring Curry back and either sign Ryan Anderson/Courtney Lee or Mirza Teletovic/Evan Fournier

With Fournier I'd really be looking for a KJ McDaniels, Raja Bell type signing - a young, unproven NBA player or a guy currently playing overseas that could come over and become the designated wing defender - possibly with the room exception if that's not used to bring back Curry or Acy. The last couple roster spots would get filled with minimum contract guys and possibly the late 2nd round pick.

Collison/Dunn/Curry
Fournier or Lee/McLemore/Belinelli
Gay/Casspi/minimum guy
Cauley-Stein/Anderson or Teletovic/Minimum guy
Cousins/Koufos/Minimum guy

is a pretty nice setup IMO.
I don't think there's enough perimeter defense on that team (especially if your go with Fournier over Lee). I also am finding it odd with this fascination of signing Anderson. We do not need him.

Casspi is our stretch 4. With Gay logging 34 minutes at SF that leaves Casspi picking up around 14 minutes at PF. Statistically, Casspi helped his team win (1.04 RAPM) more than Anderson did (-0.19). On top of that, Casspi helped his team more when he played PF versus SF (the team was +9.4 points when Casspi was on the court as a PF vs. when off the court and the team was -1.3 points when Casspi was on the court as a SF vs. when off the court). In the meantime, Gay made our team much more successful when played at SF vs. PF (the team was +4.1 points when Gay was on the court as a SF vs. when off the court and the team was -7.7 points when Gay was on the court as a PF vs. when off the court). I'd prefer Gay to get all of his minutes at SF while making sure Casspi is getting adequate time at PF.

If Casspi playing more PF is the plan, that leaves very little minutes for a stretch 4. Hence, paying top dollar for stretch 4 is not a wise way to spend our FA $s. If we can bring a guy like Mirotic, Jerebko, or Teletovic here to log ~15 min a night at PF (in case we need a bigger bodied 3pt shooting PF) we should be more than fine. Casspi has the size & rebounding skills to get by at PF while really putting pressure on the defense on the opposite end.

So you have a couple options...

1. You could trade Belinelli for cap space, sign C. Lee (12 mil)/S. Hill (8 mil)/Curry (5 mil)/Acy (3 mil), & draft Luwawu.

PG - Collison (32 min)/Curry (16 min)
SG - Lee (30 min)/Hill (18 min)/McLemore
SF - Gay (34 min)/Hill (8 min)/Casspi (6 min)/Luwawu/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein (28 min)/Casspi (20 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Koufos (12 min)

2. You could trade Belinelli for cap space, sign L. Stephenson (9 mil)/S. Hill (8 mil)/Curry (5 mil)/Acy (3 mil), & draft Luwawu.

PG - Collison (32 min)/Curry (16 min)
SG - Hill (20 min)/Stephenson (28 min)/McLemore
SF - Gay (34 min)/Hill (8 min)/Casspi (6 min)/Luwawu/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein (28 min)/Casspi (20 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Koufos (12 min)

3. You could trade Belinelli for cap space, trade #8/Koufos/McLemore/lowering protection to top 5 on 2017 1st rounder for #12/Alec Burks/Nikola Mirotic, sign S. Hill (8 mil)/Curry (5 mil)/Aldrich (5 mil)/Acy (3 mil), & draft Luwawu.

PG - Collison (32 min)/Curry (16 min)
SG - Hill (20 min)/Burks (28 min)/Luwawu
SF - Gay (34 min)/Hill (8 min)/Casspi (6 min)/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein (16 min)/Casspi (20 min)/Mirotic (12 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Cauley-Stein (12 min)/Aldrich


I think those teams are much more balanced with plenty of shooting at PF while also having plenty of perimeter defense.
 
That team doesn't get significantly better. In fact it gets worse with Rondo gone!

Rightly or wrongly, this team won only 33 games this season. There is no way you lose your starting PG and come back with a very similar roster with upgrades, albeit acceptable but not great, and hope to magically make the play offs next season.

There will need to be a strong overhaul of the roster but core pieces will remain intact.
 
That team doesn't get significantly better. In fact it gets worse with Rondo gone!

Rightly or wrongly, this team won only 33 games this season. There is no way you lose your starting PG and come back with a very similar roster with upgrades, albeit acceptable but not great, and hope to magically make the play offs next season.

There will need to be a strong overhaul of the roster but core pieces will remain intact.
That's a shortsighted comment...

Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins was one of the best lineups in the league under 2 seasons ago. Now Karl is gone, Joerger (who a lot of us are expecting to coach similarly to Malone) is in, Cousins is a few seasons better, Cauley-Stein is (will be) better than Thompson, Gay is the same, Collison is the same, & Lee/Hill in the starting lineup will provide more than a 2nd year McLemore. Why is it unrealistic to think this group can't pull it together?

Then you have the bench from Malone's year (Sessions, Stauskas, Casspi, Landry, Hollins) vs. this year (Curry/Burks/Casspi/Mirotic/Aldrich). That's another upgrade if you ask me.

Is the team a championship contender? No, but it's a start in the right direction. Cousins & Cauley-Stein have the potential to be the best frontcourt in the league. Hill & Luwawu have the potential to be some solid, athletic 3&D wings. The Kings will have a lot of cap space next year with Gay likely opting out and the cap rising which gives us the ability to go after someone like Hayward or one of the many attractive PG FAs.

We'd have $51 mil in cap space with the following players under contract:

PG - Curry
SG - Burks/Luwawu
SF - Hill
PF - Cauley-Stein/Acy
C - Cousins/Aldrich

You could make a run at one of Curry, Westbrook, or Paul with that money. However, to have any chance, we'd have to make the playoffs and look like a team on the rise. I'd still put our changes next to zero at signing any of those PGs. Lowry & Holiday may be a little more realistic as the Raptors may look to go in a different direction if they can't get over the hump as well as Holiday's injury history keeping him in play. Like I mentioned before, Hayward would probably be the first guy I target. The guy just knows how to play winning, unselfish basketball (top 30 RAPM this year, top 20 RAPM last year). He's also a better go-to option than Gay, better floor spacer than Gay, better playmaker than Gay, younger than Gay, & doesn't have a tendency to stop the ball.

A max salary will likely start at $30 mil that offseason. I'm not sure what the market will be for him but he's making around 16 mil today. That equates to about 25 mil under the new cap. Considering he's probably looking for a proportional raise, he'll probably be around 25 mil in his first year of his contract. Let's just say we sign Hayward for $26 mil in his first season & Holiday to $16 mil in his first season. That leaves us with $9 mil in cap space and the following team:

PG - Holiday/Curry
SG - S. Hill/Burks
SF - Hayward/Luwawu
PF - Cauley-Stein/Acy
C - Cousins/Aldrich

How we spend the remaining $9 mil likely depends on how Curry, Hill, Burks, & Luwawu play in the 16-17 season, but perhaps we were able to sign Collison/Mills as PG insurance in case of a Holiday injury while using an exception to bring back Casspi. That team would be pretty darn strong if some of the young pieces come together.

PG - Holiday/Collison/Curry
SG - S. Hill/Burks
SF - Hayward/Luwawu
PF - Cauley-Stein/Casspi/Acy
C - Cousins/Aldrich

Does that team have the potential to go all the way? I would say they do with an emphasis on "potential." If Holiday can't remain reasonably healthy, if Curry turns into a solid rotation guard, if Hill turns into a solid 3&D starting caliber wing, if Luwawu turns into a solid 3&D wing, if Burks gets back to his old ways before his injury, if Cauley-Stein develops into one of the best frontcourt defenders in the league with some offensive skills, if Cousins puts it all together....

There are a lot of "ifs" in the plan, but if you have a plan for how we should turn this team into a contender that doesn't require a lot of "ifs", I'm all ears.
 
You are right there are a LOT of ifs and chances of pulling off the subsequent moved are very slim. Bottom line is we need to be significantly better next season and a lot more balanced. Lee is a nice veteran if you bring back Rondo because the ball handling and the passing is not as big a priority from that position.

If yout starting PG is Collisons, then your SG needs to be able to handle, create and pass....you need a much more rounded player in this case.

Gay is a year older so his defense has and will continue to slip so you are not going to get the same production as you got from him under Malone. Could but unlikely. We can bank on natural improvement from some players but bottom line is, all the other teams will get that too.

It's great to have long terms strategy but none of the stars you mentioned are coming to Sacramento. We shouldn't be going after Holiday for the same reasons that New Orleans would be willing to let him go. Bottom line is that next year we cannot afford to "hope that the roster is good enough". It needs to be put beyond any doubts and the only way we can do that is to change the roster in a fairly significant way.

BTW, I am a HUGE Hayward fan. Would have him on my team ANY day! A complete player.
 
You are right there are a LOT of ifs and chances of pulling off the subsequent moved are very slim. Bottom line is we need to be significantly better next season and a lot more balanced. Lee is a nice veteran if you bring back Rondo because the ball handling and the passing is not as big a priority from that position.

If yout starting PG is Collisons, then your SG needs to be able to handle, create and pass....you need a much more rounded player in this case.

Gay is a year older so his defense has and will continue to slip so you are not going to get the same production as you got from him under Malone. Could but unlikely. We can bank on natural improvement from some players but bottom line is, all the other teams will get that too.

It's great to have long terms strategy but none of the stars you mentioned are coming to Sacramento. We shouldn't be going after Holiday for the same reasons that New Orleans would be willing to let him go. Bottom line is that next year we cannot afford to "hope that the roster is good enough". It needs to be put beyond any doubts and the only way we can do that is to change the roster in a fairly significant way.

BTW, I am a HUGE Hayward fan. Would have him on my team ANY day! A complete player.
I'm still waiting on a your plan. It's easy & safe to sit back and just say that "the roster needs to be better" without actually putting in anytime to think about how we could actually make that happen.

And what is this thought around the SG needing to handle the ball if Collison is the starting PG? What proof do you have to back that statement up? Again, a Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins lineup was the 4th best lineup in the league only 2 seasons ago, and McLemore was probably the worst ball handling SG in the league. However, by some miracle, we overcame it and had one of the best lineups in the league. Fancy that... This notion that we NEED to have a ball handling SG next to Collison is something I'm still waiting for people to prove. Would it be nice? Yes. Can we be very successful without it? Also yes.
 
I don't think there's enough perimeter defense on that team (especially if your go with Fournier over Lee). I also am finding it odd with this fascination of signing Anderson. We do not need him.

Casspi is our stretch 4. With Gay logging 34 minutes at SF that leaves Casspi picking up around 14 minutes at PF. Statistically, Casspi helped his team win (1.04 RAPM) more than Anderson did (-0.19). On top of that, Casspi helped his team more when he played PF versus SF (the team was +9.4 points when Casspi was on the court as a PF vs. when off the court and the team was -1.3 points when Casspi was on the court as a SF vs. when off the court). In the meantime, Gay made our team much more successful when played at SF vs. PF (the team was +4.1 points when Gay was on the court as a SF vs. when off the court and the team was -7.7 points when Gay was on the court as a PF vs. when off the court). I'd prefer Gay to get all of his minutes at SF while making sure Casspi is getting adequate time at PF.

If Casspi playing more PF is the plan, that leaves very little minutes for a stretch 4. Hence, paying top dollar for stretch 4 is not a wise way to spend our FA $s. If we can bring a guy like Mirotic, Jerebko, or Teletovic here to log ~15 min a night at PF (in case we need a bigger bodied 3pt shooting PF) we should be more than fine. Casspi has the size & rebounding skills to get by at PF while really putting pressure on the defense on the opposite end.

So you have a couple options...

1. You could trade Belinelli for cap space, sign C. Lee (12 mil)/S. Hill (8 mil)/Curry (5 mil)/Acy (3 mil), & draft Luwawu.

PG - Collison (32 min)/Curry (16 min)
SG - Lee (30 min)/Hill (18 min)/McLemore
SF - Gay (34 min)/Hill (8 min)/Casspi (6 min)/Luwawu/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein (28 min)/Casspi (20 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Koufos (12 min)

2. You could trade Belinelli for cap space, sign L. Stephenson (9 mil)/S. Hill (8 mil)/Curry (5 mil)/Acy (3 mil), & draft Luwawu.

PG - Collison (32 min)/Curry (16 min)
SG - Hill (20 min)/Stephenson (28 min)/McLemore
SF - Gay (34 min)/Hill (8 min)/Casspi (6 min)/Luwawu/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein (28 min)/Casspi (20 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Koufos (12 min)

3. You could trade Belinelli for cap space, trade #8/Koufos/McLemore/lowering protection to top 5 on 2017 1st rounder for #12/Alec Burks/Nikola Mirotic, sign S. Hill (8 mil)/Curry (5 mil)/Aldrich (5 mil)/Acy (3 mil), & draft Luwawu.

PG - Collison (32 min)/Curry (16 min)
SG - Hill (20 min)/Burks (28 min)/Luwawu
SF - Gay (34 min)/Hill (8 min)/Casspi (6 min)/Butler
PF - Cauley-Stein (16 min)/Casspi (20 min)/Mirotic (12 min)/Acy
C - Cousins (36 min)/Cauley-Stein (12 min)/Aldrich


I think those teams are much more balanced with plenty of shooting at PF while also having plenty of perimeter defense.
I like your scenarios, especially 1 and 3, if we move on from Rondo. The only thing I want to add is that I can see why one could argue that Anderson would be a good signing if the price is right. I agree with you that Casspi should get a lot of minutes at the 4 if we dont sign another stretch 4. But the rationale for Anderson in my mind is not that he gives us a stetch 4 but that he gives us a potent option on offense that could come in and doesn't fold when Cousins is out/injured.
To illustrate my point lets assume we move on from Rondo and sign C. Lee:
Collison, Lee, Gay, Wcs, Cousins
Pretty balanced lineup that should be very good. The problem is that when Cousins is out the whole thing falls apart. You would either have to go small with Casspi/Acy or big with Koufos. Both less than ideal because defense suffers and Gay becomes the #1, probably turns ineffective again and our offense dies. But when you insert Anderson he can be your go to guy and Gay becomes the effective #2 option.
Collison-Lee-Gay-Anderson-Wcs should be able to keep us in a potential playoff hunt until Cousins returns.

Combine that with the fact that we can probably get him in this crazy free agent market and it makes Anderson an attractive option.
 
Getting Dunn is the very tricky part. I just can't see him falling past Minny. They have been looking to trade Rubio last seasons and I just think Dunn with that young core is an absolute slam dunk for the franchise. If Dunn falls to 8, it makes our off-season somewhat easier because it frees up a whole heap of salary cap to address other needs and not worry about getting a PG. If you don't get Dunn then you need some of that salary cap room to get a PG, whether that is re-signing Rondo or getting someone else. That severely limits us in addressing the rest of the needs.

As it is usually the case with the Kings, I wouldn't expect Dunn to slide to 8, which means we will draft someone else ready to play minutes straight away. This might allow us to trade one of the assets to address other needs. For example if we draft a wing that can play 20-25 minutes straight way (say a big C) then all of a sudden you might be able to trade Kosta to get another PG if you are not re-signing Rondo.

So much of out dealings in summer depend on that pick. If Dunn falls our way, all of a sudden our options open up brilliantly for us. If he doesn't, it becomes a challenge. I will be hoping that Dunn slips to us. Would make our life so much easier. Brown wouldn't be a bad get either. He could contribute straight away defensively and has some serious upside going forward but Dunn for us would be the prized get.
Pardon my French Spanish, but if that happens, why the **** don't we reach out to grab Rubio??
The guy is one of my favorite PGs in the league, and can perform magic on both sides of the court.
He's ahead of Dunn on MY wish list.
 
You are right there are a LOT of ifs and chances of pulling off the subsequent moved are very slim. Bottom line is we need to be significantly better next season and a lot more balanced. Lee is a nice veteran if you bring back Rondo because the ball handling and the passing is not as big a priority from that position.

If yout starting PG is Collisons, then your SG needs to be able to handle, create and pass....you need a much more rounded player in this case.

Gay is a year older so his defense has and will continue to slip so you are not going to get the same production as you got from him under Malone. Could but unlikely. We can bank on natural improvement from some players but bottom line is, all the other teams will get that too.

It's great to have long terms strategy but none of the stars you mentioned are coming to Sacramento. We shouldn't be going after Holiday for the same reasons that New Orleans would be willing to let him go. Bottom line is that next year we cannot afford to "hope that the roster is good enough". It needs to be put beyond any doubts and the only way we can do that is to change the roster in a fairly significant way.

BTW, I am a HUGE Hayward fan. Would have him on my team ANY day! A complete player.
During Malone's entire tenure in Sacramento, and not just November 2014 run (waiting for KingMilz to come with his usual sarcasm about GOAT under .500 coach), he had no problem getting Cousins to score above 55TS% without the help of the best NBA passer, often using Ray Mccallum instead (Karl managed to squeeze 49TS%, when Rondo sat), or for Rudy to score at 54TS% when Boogie was on the bench (Karl got 47TS%). Yes, giving Rudy big contract in 2017 is problematic and might be a significant set-back within a couple of years, but expecting Rudy to fall-off at 30 y.o., when his game was never based on quickness to begin with, is unfounded. Courtney Lee at 31y.o. is much more likely to start declining next season, since his game does depend on quickness. Everyone with any access to the team reported, that Rudy did not want to be here, so he was obviously going through the motions this past season, certainly nowhere close to 100% focus. Joerger was against Gay's trade at the time, so I assume, Dave can significantly raise Rudy's interest level.
Having SG with good handling and passing is nice as you can never have too much of these qualities on your team, but ability to create offense is not a necessity even next to Collison: Kings had clear 1/2/3 in Boogie/Rudy/Darren, when Collison got here in 2014, and there were no shots for SG and PF. Now having DJ Augustin/Norris Cole/Curry and Casspi lead the second unit, yes, they would need help with creativity. Don't like Burks to fill bench SG slot as he's paid a lot and a walking injury. Stephenson, and he might not be available at all, carries a lot of locker-room risk. Baldwin and Valentine might be solutions from the draft, but Valentine will be killed as a rookie on D for sure.
Looking forward to 2017, yes, Holiday makes so much sense, and he's not as injury-prone as the number of missed games might suggest: most of his sitting out in a suit was due to poorly healed leg fracture, that was not monitored, because Sixers concealed it. Pelicans were leaving him on the bench in back-to-back early on, and later in the season he was sidelined for tanking purposes, so it's not out of question, that he plays close to 80 games in 16-17 campaign.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
I'd absolutely try and get Ryan Anderson. If he wants to come here, you get him. Kings are still in the acquiring talent mode while at the same time tweaking the roster for better fit. Now that we have our head coach in place, things are slowly clicking into place. Yes, we do need a guy like Anderson who can knock down the 3. No, Casspi is not as good as Anderson, never has been but Casspi is a guy that can continue to help us off the bench. Keep acquiring talent so that maybe we can actually make a real deal because we have depth at a position.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
But they are nothing alike!
Ahhhh, well, there are some similarities. Both are around the same size. Bot are athletic, although Westbrook is a freak athlete. Both like to attack the basket and or push the ball. Both had, or have suspect three point shots coming into the league. Both are strong players. Do I think Dunn is the next Russell Westbrook? Who the hell knows? Likely Dunn will be Dunn, whoever that is. Some scouts have compared Dunn to Wall, another 6'4" athletic PG. I think the comparison is more to the current trend of PG's that have been successful, than to any specific player.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
During Malone's entire tenure in Sacramento, and not just November 2014 run (waiting for KingMilz to come with his usual sarcasm about GOAT under .500 coach), he had no problem getting Cousins to score above 55TS% without the help of the best NBA passer, often using Ray Mccallum instead (Karl managed to squeeze 49TS%, when Rondo sat), or for Rudy to score at 54TS% when Boogie was on the bench (Karl got 47TS%). Yes, giving Rudy big contract in 2017 is problematic and might be a significant set-back within a couple of years, but expecting Rudy to fall-off at 30 y.o., when his game was never based on quickness to begin with, is unfounded. Courtney Lee at 31y.o. is much more likely to start declining next season, since his game does depend on quickness. Everyone with any access to the team reported, that Rudy did not want to be here, so he was obviously going through the motions this past season, certainly nowhere close to 100% focus. Joerger was against Gay's trade at the time, so I assume, Dave can significantly raise Rudy's interest level.
Having SG with good handling and passing is nice as you can never have too much of these qualities on your team, but ability to create offense is not a necessity even next to Collison: Kings had clear 1/2/3 in Boogie/Rudy/Darren, when Collison got here in 2014, and there were no shots for SG and PF. Now having DJ Augustin/Norris Cole/Curry and Casspi lead the second unit, yes, they would need help with creativity. Don't like Burks to fill bench SG slot as he's paid a lot and a walking injury. Stephenson, and he might not be available at all, carries a lot of locker-room risk. Baldwin and Valentine might be solutions from the draft, but Valentine will be killed as a rookie on D for sure.
Looking forward to 2017, yes, Holiday makes so much sense, and he's not as injury-prone as the number of missed games might suggest: most of his sitting out in a suit was due to poorly healed leg fracture, that was not monitored, because Sixers concealed it. Pelicans were leaving him on the bench in back-to-back early on, and later in the season he was sidelined for tanking purposes, so it's not out of question, that he plays close to 80 games in 16-17 campaign.
Hey, I agree with just about everything you wrote. And, if I can get your personal guarantee that Holiday will be healthy, then I'm on board. My only concern with him is his health. I don't want to even talk about Rondo anymore. Those that have drank the Kool-aid won't change their minds so what's the point. All I can say is don't let the facts get in your way. Create this image in your mind. Willie is guarding Ryan Anderson who is in the right corner just outside the three point line. Willie looks to his right and see's Cole with the ball just outside the circle on the right wing. No one is guarding him, so Willie has to make a decision. He immediately runs at Cole, who then passes the ball to Anderson who hits a three. The question should be, where the hell was Rondo? I hit my back button to see, and I find Rondo in the dead space between Cole and the basket, probably looking to cut off the passing lane, but leaving his man unguarded.

This was not a rare incident folks. This happened with regularity throughout the season. If I get upset with Cousins for arguing with the ref during a live ball situation, how do you think I feel when you have Rondo choosing to not guard his man? Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. If you want that kind of player on your team, then you deserve what you get. And I'm not talking about you Gilles.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
This was not a rare incident folks. This happened with regularity throughout the season. If I get upset with Cousins for arguing with the ref during a live ball situation, how do you think I feel when you have Rondo choosing to not guard his man? Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. If you want that kind of player on your team, then you deserve what you get. And I'm not talking about you Gilles.
I'm pretty sure I'm one of the people you're referring to (or I'm just revealing my sense of guilt about it...) -- but this is the kind of thing where it's impossible for me to give a simple answer. I saw a lot of the same things you're referring to and I hate it just as much as you do. Probably even more so because I go to bat for him on this forum and he's making me look bad. :) But then I also recall some games where Rondo was the best defender on our team and a constant menace in the passing lanes and on the defensive boards. I would agree that Rondo was a really lazy defender this year overall -- the poor games far outnumbered the good ones -- and I'm not okay with that next season or any subsequent season. Where I feel the need to interject into these discussions is when people write that he's a terrible defender or the worst defender on the team because I don't think that's really an accurate description of what I see going on.

Maybe his past life as an All-Defense mainstay makes his complete lack of effort twice as obvious and twice as inexcusable, but I don't think it's fair to hold him to a higher standard than everyone else and judge him more harshly because of it. Marco Belinelli doesn't guard anybody and when he actually does try for a possession or two he's almost always out of position and ineffective. Both in terms of his effort and his capability he's terrible. Rondo is plenty capable, he just doesn't expend any effort or very little anyway. And yet "20% effort Rondo" was still a more effective defender than every other guard on the team. I'm not just talking about the steal numbers. Marco has the worst defensive rating on the team (113) so that seems irrefutably bad but Rondo at 107 is actually tied with WCS and Koufos for the second best rating on the team. If you want to look instead at opponent shooting %s (Rondo, Collison, Curry, McLemore, Belinelli, Anderson) -- only McLemore and Anderson were better. Goerge Karl said at one point that Seth Curry was the best backcourt defender on the team yet he has the worst marks in opponent shooting % and a defensive rating of 112.

Certainly I can see your point that a player who's not willing to work hard on defense has no business on a successful team and you're not wrong. And normally I would agree with you, but there's always gray areas. And the gray area that Rondo falls into (besides being one of my favorite players in the league, who I openly admit I'm incapable of being objective about) is that his "terrible lazy defense" is actually kindof working. Colloquially, I can recall games where Collison played great defense too but overall the numbers say that Rondo was significantly better. And with something as difficult to quantify as defense, you kindof have to trust what the numbers say to a certain extent. Here's a list of the best players in the league this season based on defensive rating:

1.Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 94.5 2.Tim Duncan ▪ SAS 95.7 3.Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 96.0 4.Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 96.1 5.DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 97.6 6.Andre Drummond ▪ DET 98.0 7.LaMarcus Aldridge ▪ SAS 98.7 8.Rudy Gobert ▪ UTA 98.7 9.Danny Green ▪ SAS 98.8 10.Jared Sullinger ▪ BOS 99.6 11.Ian Mahinmi ▪ IND 99.9 12.Draymond Green ▪ GSW 99.9 13.Kent Bazemore ▪ ATL 100.0 14.Thabo Sefolosha ▪ ATL 100.1 15.Bismack Biyombo ▪ TOR 100.8 16.Paul George ▪ IND 100.8 17.Derrick Favors ▪ UTA 100.8 18.Al Horford ▪ ATL 100.8 19.Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 100.9 20.Amir Johnson ▪ BOS 101.7
This doesn't seem absurd does it? Most of those names pass the eye test as stand-out defenders and there's a few more that you can see why they might be under the radar great defenders as well. And yet that same rating says Rondo was just as good last season as Willie Cauley-Stein. In fact, let's go a step further and get a general picture of where other guards across the league rank in this area... (link)

This is my problem -- the eye test is obviously important, but you can't just ignore all the stats when you disagree with them. You look across the league and it's not even obvious to me who we're going to replace Rondo with at PG who's going to be an obvious upgrade on the defensive end before you even start talking about playmaking ability. So the line that Rondo is terrible, worst on the team, needs to be replaced before we can ever win anything -- it reads like hyperbole not informed analysis to me. And my goal is always to go after false perceptions when I see them. I had a similar argument last season about Collison when people were saying we need more 3pt shooting. He was an elite 3pt shooter at the PG position last season and he was even better this season. Maybe it's not obvious because he doesn't shoot as much as Curry or Kyrie and he gets most of his 3pt looks spotted up rather than off the dribble, but this is one area where the stats don't lie.

Which leads me back to your issue. Is it fun watching Rondo stand in the middle of the floor doing nothing while the other team shoots over him or gets an open layup? Of course not. But I stand by my assertion that he's not nearly as terrible as the majority opinion here would have us believe. And my hope would be that a coach who actually cares about defense and believes that games are won and lost on that end of the floor can help minimize those occurrences in the future. If this season's version of Rondo was a top 20 defender among starting guards while taking so many plays off, wouldn't it be fair to expect some improvement next year?

And lastly, because I know we both love Kris Dunn -- he showed some of the same problems on the defensive end this year that Rondo did with leaving shooters open to defend the middle or cheating into the passing lanes instead of playing up on the ball. I still think he'll be a great defender in the NBA but there's no such thing as a perfect defender and even the best players in the league take plays off once in awhile.
 
I'm still waiting on a your plan. It's easy & safe to sit back and just say that "the roster needs to be better" without actually putting in anytime to think about how we could actually make that happen.

And what is this thought around the SG needing to handle the ball if Collison is the starting PG? What proof do you have to back that statement up? Again, a Collison/McLemore/Gay/Thompson/Cousins lineup was the 4th best lineup in the league only 2 seasons ago, and McLemore was probably the worst ball handling SG in the league. However, by some miracle, we overcame it and had one of the best lineups in the league. Fancy that... This notion that we NEED to have a ball handling SG next to Collison is something I'm still waiting for people to prove. Would it be nice? Yes. Can we be very successful without it? Also yes.
Mate no need to get your knickers in a knot! It's not an attack on you, why so tense?

The team you are referring to as being the best, also happened to be one of the worst in terms of assists and turnovers. With only Collisons on the court, the ball handling and creating takes a hit, the assists go down, turnovers stay the same or go up so the assist to turnover ratio starts looking ugly. I have no problem with Collison starting and letting Rondo walk provided that we improve significantly in other areas. For all his knocks, JT actually was a very good man on man defender (better than WCS at this stage though, WCS's potential on the defensive end is off the charts). You are also assuming that Joerger will use the same defensive schemes that Malone used so that we could just plug in WCS instead of JT and it will all magically work. Bu back to the PGs, if Collison is your PG going forward you absolutely need a better rounded SG if you want to consistently be a play off team. Batum would be ideal, albeit unlikely. As a cheaper option your idea of Stephenson makes sense. He sort of fits that profile albeit not a great shooter from long range but he handles, can create for others and himself and plays good D.

McLemore is really a non factor in all this. For 3 seasons straight he has been a major flop and without a doubt the worst starting SG in the league and we really should have traded him while he still had some value. He is now nothing up a young shooter buried deep on the bench. Sacramento has ALWAYS had trouble attracting high profile free agents. The best we got was Vlade (because we gave him most $$$), Brad Miller (because we were best team in the league at the time) and Rondo (because his reputation was shot and he needed to rebuild it and he only singed for 1 season) so even the thought of Curry, Westbrook, Paul and even Hayward is a gigantic IF that will most likely never come off. We are not a marquee market an we do not attract marquee players via free agency. We are one of those teams where salary cap room does not matter much. We could have room for two max contracts this summer and we would still not be able to attract KD. This is where my questioning comes from.

Our salary cap room comes in handy for the second tier free agents but not cream of the crop. Even players like Lowry (who is getting outside our preferred age bracket) might be too big for Sacramento now days. The issue here is that we don't have the time for too much long term planning. We need to be a play off team tarting next season. A play off team with a great deal of promise going forward. So close enough by no cigar will not do it for us this time because we used all 8 of our cat lives and we have one left. No margin for error or come next off-season, DeMarcus Cousins is demanding a trade and we are back to square 1 and nothing to show for it.

Our current roster as it stands should have made the play offs in uncharacteristically weakened West if the coach implemented the right system for the roster. But we didn't so it means that we should be coming back with a much better roster next year than the one we had this year. If we don't bring Rondo back, that is our 2nd best player from this season gone and will need to be replaced. It's a tricky situation to be in especially since we busted on so many draft picks but just little tweaks here and there will not do it. There will be some significant changes to the roster and I think it starts with the SG.