What do we have to do to have a winning team?

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#31
Bajaden I respect your opinion. With that said, that second paragraph tells a lot about your mindset. I don't care if this team is playing on a back to back, 3 games in four nights, whatever the schedule may be, you stated that you didn't expect a win and that way of thinking is what losers do. Losers don't expect win. Losers find excuses, even if statistically the Kings were up against the odds, winners find a way to get it done, winners expect to be victorious. If you're going into a game with the belief that a win would be surprising, you've already lost.

I understand, you're a fan just like all of us and you try to remain optimistic, but you've really got to reconsider your logic. Maybe our brains work different. I want a winning team, no excuses.
bajaden, as a fan, didn't expect a win because he's pragmatic. That doesn't make him a loser. he was a professional athlete at one point, which I'm assuming you don't know, so I think he's actually in somewhat of a better position to talk about things like scheduling, travel, back to backs, etc.

His logic is sound. Your reasoning and interpretation of what he's said is what's off.
 
P

PoundForPound

Guest
#32
bajaden, as a fan, didn't expect a win because he's pragmatic. That doesn't make him a loser. he was a professional athlete at one point, which I'm assuming you don't know, so I think he's actually in somewhat of a better position to talk about things like scheduling, travel, back to backs, etc.

His logic is sound. Your reasoning and interpretation of what he's said is what's off.
Well, that's your opinion and I respect it just as much as I respected Bajaden's. I am also a former athlete but we don't need to get into this and make it into a personal debate. We just disagree, no harm in that. I'm very critical of this team in terms of my belief that this community is desperate for winning basketball. It is my understanding that you don't live in Sacramento either, but I get a first row seat as a witness to the effect that this organization has on my city. Winning needs to be achieved by any means possible. Right now this team and its' fans are accustomed to making excuses, in simpler terms you've gotten used to losing. Winning franchises don't make excuses or expect losses.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#33
Well, that's your opinion and I respect it just as much as I respected Bajaden's. I am also a former athlete but we don't need to get into this and make it into a personal debate. We just disagree, no harm in that. I'm very critical of this team in terms of my belief that this community is desperate for winning basketball. It is my understanding that you don't live in Sacramento either, but I get a first row seat as a witness to the effect that this organization has on my city. Winning needs to be achieved by any means possible. Right now this team and its' fans are accustomed to making excuses, in simpler terms you've gotten used to losing. Winning franchises don't make excuses or expect losses.
YOUR CITY? Oh dude, do not even go there. My great-great-grandparents moved to Sacramento from Oregon in the late 1880s. My granddaughters live there and I did until I retired to my current residence. That's SEVEN generations of my family that have been proud to call Sacramento their home.

NO TEAM on earth wins every game. Some losses are almost predictable. Last night's game falls into that category for a variety of logical reasons you apparently do not want to accept.

PoundForPound said:
I'm pretty depressed right about now.

It's the same ol' Kings, year after year, loss after loss. A shiny brand new arena isn't going to fix everything. What do we have to do to see winning basketball here in Sacramento? I'm sick of seeing DMC moan and groan all game long, it's depressing. I'm at a loss for words right now, the lowest point in my fanaticalism life. A new coach isn't going to change anything. We're still the same ol' Sacramento Kings. :(:(
This is NOT the same team. Your depression notwithstanding, there are a lot more reasons to be hopeful than to whine and moan about how this is the lowest point in your fan life, etc. If this is the lowest point in your fan life, I can only assume you weren't a Kings fan on May 8, 2003.
 
P

PoundForPound

Guest
#34
YOUR CITY? Oh dude, do not even go there. My great-great-grandparents moved to Sacramento from Oregon in the late 1880s. My granddaughters live there and I did until I retired to my current residence. That's SEVEN generations of my family that have been proud to call Sacramento their home.

NO TEAM on earth wins every game. Some losses are almost predictable. Last night's game falls into that category for a variety of logical reasons you apparently do not want to accept.



This is NOT the same team. Your depression notwithstanding, there are a lot more reasons to be hopeful than to whine and moan about how this is the lowest point in your fan life, etc. If this is the lowest point in your fan life, I can only assume you weren't a Kings fan on May 8, 2003.
I'd have to say that this is right up there in terms of the lowest points as a fan of this team. As opposed to recent years where we have been terrible; We have the talent to be competitive, night in night out, we can beat anyone on any given night if our talent plays up to it. It's so frustrating because it's the intangibles, the little things that are not allowing this team to be successful. The effort, the hustle, the unselfishness, the self-discipline and will to win is just not there for this team as a unit.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
Bajaden I respect your opinion. With that said, that second paragraph tells a lot about your mindset. I don't care if this team is playing on a back to back, 3 games in four nights, whatever the schedule may be, you stated that you didn't expect a win and that way of thinking is what losers do. Losers don't expect win. Losers find excuses, even if statistically the Kings were up against the odds, winners find a way to get it done, winners expect to be victorious. If you're going into a game with the belief that a win would be surprising, you've already lost.

I understand, you're a fan just like all of us and you try to remain optimistic, but you've really got to reconsider your logic. Maybe our brains work different. I want a winning team, no excuses.
I literally despise the use of the word excuse. There are facts, and there's fiction. What I related were facts. If I'm late for a meeting because I was in an accident, is that an excuse, or a fact. If Cousins played with a broken leg, would that be a fact, or would that be an excuse? When I played ball, I expected to win every game, and I tried to win every game. But at the end of the season, when we didn't win every game, I wasn't shocked. Because to think we should have wouldn't have been realistic. Is that having a loser mentality? I look at the fact and then I try and make a realistic judgement. That's what I did before this last game. Don't get me wrong, I still rooted for them to win, and hoped that they would. But whether you want to believe it or not, sometimes the mind is willing, but the body isn't.

Doesn't mean the players aren't giving effort, its just that your a half step slow. The lift is gone on your jumper. So I wasn't shocked by the result, and I certainly wasn't going to make a ridiculous statement about a coach not mattering. Your entire post was a Debbie Downer, and you tell me that I'm the one with the losing mentality. At least I have great expectations, and believe those expectations will be met. I don't have knee jerk reactions like yours after a bad game, just like I didn't have a knee jerk reaction after the Knicks game. As a matter of fact after the Knicks game, I posted that it was just one game against a bad team, and basically we did what we were supposed to do against a bad team.

Now, that said, if you were to ask anyone that knows me, they would tell you that I'm one of the most positive and optimistic people they know. I never quit on anything I start. The word commitment means a great deal to me. Back in my day on the field, anyone that called me loser, or implied I had a losing mentality, would need a dentist the next day. There's no greater insult you could have thrown at me, than to imply that I had a loser mentality. Not knowing me, you had no way to know that. So let me be clear. I hate and despise losing. I find it painful. Just because I'm not surprised by a loss, doesn't mean I endorse it, it just means that on some occasions, I understand it. In your post, you sounded as though all was lost, and that no matter what we did, the result would always be the same. That sir, is a losing mentality. My creed is a quote by Vince Lombardi who said, "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser".
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#38
maybe get a competent front office that has an identity in mind and stick with it, that would be a great start to boot. Proceed then to fill those gaps with players that are willing and able to shoot and play defense is another way to go about it..
 
#39
In answer to the OP question-

Of the nine players that are depended upon in each game we need a significant improvement in ONE starter and TWO bench players.
 
#40
A stretch 4, more depth for the bench. Andre Miller gives the team the vet guard they need. It's a matter of whether or not RayMac or Stauskas can turn into a reliable bench scorer. Team needs more passing at the PF spot as well.

I think Landry is on the way out. I like him, but he doesn't seem to fit the new style, and will have value to other teams. I don't trust Derrick Williams. If he rebounded he may fit in as a bench guy, but he watches defensive rebounds and doesn't commit to being a good defender. He still tends to make mental lapses.

There will be options in FA and maybe trade. They'll need to fill out the roster. I'd like to keep JT since he is a very solid defender that is useful in a conference with AD, Griffin, LMA and Memphis.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#41
I'd have to say that this is right up there in terms of the lowest points as a fan of this team. As opposed to recent years where we have been terrible; We have the talent to be competitive, night in night out, we can beat anyone on any given night if our talent plays up to it. It's so frustrating because it's the intangibles, the little things that are not allowing this team to be successful. The effort, the hustle, the unselfishness, the self-discipline and will to win is just not there for this team as a unit.
I ask this in all seriousness... Did your prescription for anti-depressants run out or something?
 
#42
I don't want to talk about the negatives of this team, because when I actually tried to... I ended up writing a 10page essay...

This team needs a whole revamp at PF. JT and Cuz don't get along, and we just need a major upgrade.

Also need an upgrade at SG. Need more overall production from SG.

Need a better distributor at PG.

Need less forcing shots and less turnovers. Need more passing and more chemistry.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#43
I don't want to talk about the negatives of this team, because when I actually tried to... I ended up writing a 10page essay...

This team needs a whole revamp at PF. JT and Cuz don't get along, and we just need a major upgrade.

Also need an upgrade at SG. Need more overall production from SG.

Need a better distributor at PG.

Need less forcing shots and less turnovers. Need more passing and more chemistry.
Says who?
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#44
I don't want to talk about the negatives of this team, because when I actually tried to... I ended up writing a 10page essay...

This team needs a whole revamp at PF. JT and Cuz don't get along, and we just need a major upgrade.

Also need an upgrade at SG. Need more overall production from SG.

Need a better distributor at PG.

Need less forcing shots and less turnovers. Need more passing and more chemistry.
I agree with the PG thing, I love Darren Collison but we need a PG who takes the ball out of Gay's and Cousins hands and turns them into finishers rather than creators. We need a really high IQ player (like Dre) to run the point.
 
#45
I agree with the PG thing, I love Darren Collison but we need a PG who takes the ball out of Gay's and Cousins hands and turns them into finishers rather than creators. We need a really high IQ player (like Dre) to run the point.
Cousins a finisher? IMO that's the worst aspect of his game. He isn't Anthony Davis or heck even Hassan Whiteside who have massive athletic ability. He's not going to be slashing to the rim to catch a pass and throw it down. He's not a pick and roll player. Cousins STRUGGLES to finish around the rim! Well ok not really struggles but just catching and dunking over people in the paint isn't one of his strengths, especially when the refs aren't calling fouls when defenders swipe at him. No no, Cousins is much better as a creator, just like how Memphis gets ZBo the ball and gets out of the way. What we need to do is surround Cousins with better shooters so that the floor will actually be spaced. Right now we have a grand total of one 3 point shooter on the team, with Gay, Dwill and Collison being in a clear tier down from Ben. I honestly wouldn't mind moving Gay for someone who's less able to create his own shot but is more capable from long range. Get a PF who is either a stretch 4 or more in the mold of the catch and dunk type to play off of Cousins and our guard penetration. Right now all the bigs on our team other than Cousins have stone hands and that takes away a lot of opportunities for quick interior passes.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#46
Cousins a finisher? IMO that's the worst aspect of his game. He isn't Anthony Davis or heck even Hassan Whiteside who have massive athletic ability. He's not going to be slashing to the rim to catch a pass and throw it down. He's not a pick and roll player. Cousins STRUGGLES to finish around the rim! Well ok not really struggles but just catching and dunking over people in the paint isn't one of his strengths, especially when the refs aren't calling fouls when defenders swipe at him. No no, Cousins is much better as a creator, just like how Memphis gets ZBo the ball and gets out of the way. What we need to do is surround Cousins with better shooters so that the floor will actually be spaced. Right now we have a grand total of one 3 point shooter on the team, with Gay, Dwill and Collison being in a clear tier down from Ben. I honestly wouldn't mind moving Gay for someone who's less able to create his own shot but is more capable from long range. Get a PF who is either a stretch 4 or more in the mold of the catch and dunk type to play off of Cousins and our guard penetration. Right now all the bigs on our team other than Cousins have stone hands and that takes away a lot of opportunities for quick interior passes.
That's not really true a huge chuck of Z-Bo's points come from him catching the ball deep (he does a amazing job sealing his man) from high low's and simply turning and hooking the ball in right next to the basket, as well as killing people on the glass (that to me is a "finisher" just as much as the other people you said). He scores a lot more points from those scenarios than he does simply giving him the ball and getting out of the way. I have actually always wanted Cousins to play more like Z-Bo (with better passing/ball handling) I think if he simplified his game to what Z-Bo does with a bit of Cousins flavor he'd be a super efficient offensive player.

I'm not saying don't ever let Cousins iso but we need a non-passive PG who makes good choices for me Darren is far to passive and does not take control of situations.
 
#47
Cousins a finisher? IMO that's the worst aspect of his game. He isn't Anthony Davis or heck even Hassan Whiteside who have massive athletic ability. He's not going to be slashing to the rim to catch a pass and throw it down. He's not a pick and roll player. Cousins STRUGGLES to finish around the rim! Well ok not really struggles but just catching and dunking over people in the paint isn't one of his strengths, especially when the refs aren't calling fouls when defenders swipe at him. No no, Cousins is much better as a creator, just like how Memphis gets ZBo the ball and gets out of the way. What we need to do is surround Cousins with better shooters so that the floor will actually be spaced. Right now we have a grand total of one 3 point shooter on the team, with Gay, Dwill and Collison being in a clear tier down from Ben. I honestly wouldn't mind moving Gay for someone who's less able to create his own shot but is more capable from long range. Get a PF who is either a stretch 4 or more in the mold of the catch and dunk type to play off of Cousins and our guard penetration. Right now all the bigs on our team other than Cousins have stone hands and that takes away a lot of opportunities for quick interior passes.
I wouldn't mind either. I'd honestly trade Rudy for a better starting PG like Jrue Holiday and draft Ron Artest 2.0 in Stanley Johnson.

OR we can look at free agency. I really like Khris Middleton. He's a very good young rising player, but he's a SG/SF hybrid. AKA Gerald Green. I believe he has potential to be an AS in the NBA. Another player could be Tobias Harris who is essentially a younger Rudy Gay, but better IQ. He doesn't demand the ball like Rudy does either.
The perfect PF would probably be Draymond Green...but very unlikely.

If we actually do trade Rudy, we have a ton of options available. Rudy could also net us back a very good player. Need a PG upgrade no matter what though. Don't believe Collison can take us to that next level. Great as our backup though
 
P

PoundForPound

Guest
#48
I ask this in all seriousness... Did your prescription for anti-depressants run out or something?
Lol.

I'm just really down about this team. It seems like no matter what we do, new coach, new owners, new players, we're always going to be bottom feeders.
 
#50
Ryan Anderson would be an excellent addition to our team.
NO NO NO NO NO NO. And that doesn't stand for New Orleans. You live and die by Ryan Anderson. He chucks away and this season has fallen in love with these weird fall away jumpers. Far too inconsistent and demands way too many (bad) shots. Kinda injury prone too. We're far more in need of just a solid reliable 3 point shooter than we are a guy who can go 1-12 from 3 in a game. Ryan Anderson is a great guy, but as a basketball player I'm not a fan of his chucking.
 
#53
OK maybe I'm the last remaining optimist on this board, but I think we need to tweak the roster a little bit at Pf and than actually need to take a step back and give it time to grow - let Karl and the players develop some chemistry and let the core of our players find their roles and learn to trust each other and play to win and not play for individual achievements and I believe we have a decent chance to be competitive.
Of course I m not against making upgrades to our roster, but I believe in our core and won't mess around with it too much.
As a small market franchise we won't win due to talent alone - we only have a chance if we build some unique atmosphere of trust and get these guys to play as one unit - this will take time and making too many roster moves will hamper this process.
 
#54
ryan anderson does 1 thing and 1 thing only. shoot. how much does he make a year camping out at the 3 point line?
His post-up game isn't bad. He is an unmitigated chucker this year, though. He would have to be reined in quite a bit in a Kings uniform (8-10 shots per game at most). His defense is also really, really bad.
 
#55
Anyone remember when he lit us up this year? Like I mentioned I feel like he could be a effective weapon for us probably best suited off the bench.
 
#58
What needs to be done to build a winning team is (in order) address long-term weaknesses in passing, spacing/shooting, defense and basketball IQ through personnel changes and sticking with a good coach (like Karl).

1.) Passing - this needs to be addressed through personnel upgrades and changes. Collison has exceeded expectations, but we shouldn't settle if a better passer comes along that doesn't add to our weaknesses above. We also need better passing as a team, particularly at the 2, 4 and entire bench. Think players that not only have a positive A/TO ratio, but also dish out a higher volume of assists vs. current starting personnel (w/o killing the offense, of course).

2.) Spacing/shooting - a more recent weakness (ie last few years). We need more 3p shooters who can spread the floor as well as a starting PF who can space the floor as well (midrange and/or 3P range). As Cousins is our most efficient (and unstoppable) player, this will give him space to operate while spreading the defense.

3.) Defense. Our team has shown that with good coaching, we can be an above-average defensive team. However, we need more defensive personnel, especially off the bench.

4.) Basketball IQ. More players who know how to make the right play.

***

I've said this before, but Pete's only got this offseason to right the ship - and lots of moves need to be made - or he'll be sent his walking papers by an impatient ownership group.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#59
Ever since this happened, this team has done nothing :(

And yet, you didn't think of that day - May 8, 2003 BTW - when you talked about franchise lows.

I'm done bothering to respond to you. You make Debbie Downer look giddy and there's too much to be optimistic about right now for me to waste time with those who cannot or will not appreciate that we're headed back in the right direction.
 
P

PoundForPound

Guest
#60
And yet, you didn't think of that day - May 8, 2003 BTW - when you talked about franchise lows.

I'm done bothering to respond to you. You make Debbie Downer look giddy and there's too much to be optimistic about right now for me to waste time with those who cannot or will not appreciate that we're headed back in the right direction.
Of course I thought about that day. For heaven's sake, I was mortified, but at the time we were still an extremely good basketball team and personally thought we would still succeed without Webber after it happened. Yeah I know that I was wrong but at the time it happened, it didn't feel worse than what we're going through now. We're trying to climb out of the bottom dwelling hole yet we get knocked down every try it seems impossible.