What do we have to do to have a winning team?

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PoundForPound

Guest
#1
I'm pretty depressed right about now.

It's the same ol' Kings, year after year, loss after loss. A shiny brand new arena isn't going to fix everything. What do we have to do to see winning basketball here in Sacramento? I'm sick of seeing DMC moan and groan all game long, it's depressing. I'm at a loss for words right now, the lowest point in my fanaticalism life. A new coach isn't going to change anything. We're still the same ol' Sacramento Kings. :(:(
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#3
If you thought Karl was going to wave a magic wand and make this team elite, well, wow.
There are still holes, there are still players suited to a grind it out style, and, well, there's the bench.
This is totally a personnel issue. Malone was able to mask it a little, and Karl seems to be doing what he can, but playing against a team as seasoned as the Spurs can quickly bring those issues to the surface.
We're not as good as the team that beat the Knicks, but we're not as bad as the team that lost to the Spurs. Karl will continue to adjust, and roster changes will be made this offseason. We again have a quality coach in place.
 
#4
NEVER post in despair after a loss to the Spurs.
They are a freak of a franchise, can steamroll ANY team in the league, and they full-on wanted to CRUSH the Kings tonight on the brutal back-to-back.

They were up 23 points and Manu almost killed himself stopping an open layup, for god's sake. They had no business playing as hard as they did - something was up. Someone pissed in their cornflakes, I don't know.

But if you don't post/realize the problems of the team when they are winning (for example, when they won against the Pacers on Landry's last-second put-back but they sucked the whole game long and their lack of any depth was exposed) and only vent when they lose to the best franchise in the entire NBA, well.... your perspective isn't exactly the most accurate then.
 
#5
BBIQ!! Not just making extra pass, clock management, knowing intricate game situations, closing out quarters, but so much more that happens in tick-tick 44 minutes of an NBA game. God, do San Antonio Spurs execute this like clockwork, no excuses style for decades! We've been saying it for years, that BBIQ has to somehow become ingrained to finally end losing Kings culture. Apparently Karl is going to have to beat it in to their thick skulls - at least most of them. Andre Miller knows it and can teach Kings a lot but he's unlikely going to whip all of them into BBIQ shape as new player on the roster. Karl might have to insist on major reshaped roster with endless whiners like bonehead JT jettisoned for starters. Cousins simply must stop absurd nonsense of complaining on obvious fouls and even more importantly stop reaching, flailing, constantly picking up all his silly cheap ones. To have his team mates respect as leader, DMC has to be seen as acting like steady on keel captain of the ship and not some pissed off whiner, bordering out of control on every other call. Show maturity, poise, determination equally to overcome it all no matter what happens. You are Boogie Monster - on to the next play and Kings next W. Just do it!
 
#7
The Spurs are a freak of a franchise, and I'm convinced at times coast on purpose during the season to save their guys, but then they have games where the coach tells them it's time to start working up to playoff shape... and they turn on the machine and it's lights out. This is about the time of year that starts happening. They absolutely do not play for best record. They play to win the title.
 
#10
The Spurs haven't had a top pick for years (outside of making Kawhi happen), landed any big name free agents, or made any huge trades. They have a bunch of character guys (who went low in draft) they developed, and some dependable vets. They have 1 player core and built around him (Parker and Manu they developed). They have organization and accountability. They have had the same coach for 17 years!

A winning team starts with the organization. Don't forget that the Maloofs were the main reason for our frustration for the past 7 years. They had plans to destroy the team so moving would be easier. The tighter money got in Vegas, the more they ran the team into the ground.... Well they are gone, but the scars are still there.

Get better players? Totally. But no team is gonna be our sucker and give us key players in a trade for our cast offs. We have a lot of young guys with potential should focus on developing, not give up on. So I think we should prioritize there. Put all resources into making what we have best it can be; Stick to a system, organize, build culture, consistency. Make a few chemistry trades, role players, but don't sell the farm unless it is a no brainer. Its going to take a little more time. A piece here a piece there. Rebuild the organization from the ground up.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#11
The Spurs haven't had a top pick for years (outside of making Kawhi happen), landed any big name free agents, or made any huge trades. They have a bunch of character guys (who went low in draft) they developed, and some dependable vets. They have 1 player core and built around him (Parker and Manu they developed). They have organization and accountability. They have had the same coach for 17 years!

A winning team starts with the organization. Don't forget that the Maloofs were the main reason for our frustration for the past 7 years. They had plans to destroy the team so moving would be easier. The tighter money got in Vegas, the more they ran the team into the ground.... Well they are gone, but the scars are still there.

Get better players? Totally. But no team is gonna be our sucker and give us key players in a trade for our cast offs. We have a lot of young guys with potential should focus on developing, not give up on. So I think we should prioritize there. Put all resources into making what we have best it can be; Stick to a system, organize, build culture, consistency. Make a few chemistry trades, role players, but don't sell the farm unless it is a no brainer. Its going to take a little more time. A piece here a piece there. Rebuild the organization from the ground up.
Tim Duncan is kinda good. Why do people forget this.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#12
Tim Duncan is kinda good. Why do people forget this.
Yes but the Spurs have succeeded because they've built a system that utilizes him in the right ways and have surrounded him with the perfect players for their situation. Meanwhile, the Kings have gone through three entirely different systems in a year, surrounded Boogie with a total of one legitimate rotation big man (JT), one shooting guard with potential (Ben), another shooting guard that is rumored to have at one point had potential (Nik), and two inherently flawed combo forwards (Omri can't shoot, D-Will can't stop being D-Will), a PG prospect who can't run an offense, and a bunch of "big men" who seem like really good guys to hang around but probably aren't good basketball players anymore, and made a bunch of really really dubious "groundbreaking" decisions (cherrypicking idea, obsessively pursuing the GSW model, turning Reno into a basketball circus) To their credit, the front office has finally acquired a legitimate number two option for Boogie in Rudy and a pair of solid point guards in Darren Collison and Andre Miller but Andre Miller is really old now and Darren is out for the rest of the year and, according to who you ask, potentially at risk of being replaced by Ty Lawson.

But even with a player like Duncan, the Spurs couldn't have just snapped their fingers and watched the victories pile up. You've gotta remember that they already had one Top Five big man on their roster before drafting Tim Duncan and a good supporting cast built around having a dominant big man. The Spurs only lost enough games to select Duncan through a fortuitous mix of David Robinson getting hurt and shutting it down for the year, Pop making the transition from front office guy to head coach, and plain old tanking. Before that, the Spurs had made the playoffs for SEVEN consecutive seasons. In other words, let's not pretend Tim Duncan has been the only reason the Spurs have ever been successful. Is he the biggest reason for their championships? Probably yes. Would the Spurs have still succeeded if they operated with the humdrum philosophy the Kings franchise has employed for the large part since moving from Sacramento? Nope.
 
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#13
I'm pretty depressed right about now.

It's the same ol' Kings, year after year, loss after loss. A shiny brand new arena isn't going to fix everything. What do we have to do to see winning basketball here in Sacramento? I'm sick of seeing DMC moan and groan all game long, it's depressing. I'm at a loss for words right now, the lowest point in my fanaticalism life. A new coach isn't going to change anything. We're still the same ol' Sacramento Kings. :(:(
Are you kidding?:)

Horry's Big shot? Vlade leaving? Adelman being fired? Trading down in the draft and getting Jimmer along with Salmons when Leonard was there? Letting Tyreke leave? Malone being fired when Cuz is out sick? CWebb's leg going out? Those are low points my friend.

Lose to the World Champion on the second night of the mother of all back to backs this early in the Karl era??? Not even close Brother, not even close..........
 
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#14
BBIQ!! Not just making extra pass, clock management, knowing intricate game situations, closing out quarters, but so much more that happens in tick-tick 44 minutes of an NBA game. God, do San Antonio Spurs execute this like clockwork, no excuses style for decades! We've been saying it for years, that BBIQ has to somehow become ingrained to finally end losing Kings culture. Apparently Karl is going to have to beat it in to their thick skulls - at least most of them. Andre Miller knows it and can teach Kings a lot but he's unlikely going to whip all of them into BBIQ shape as new player on the roster. Karl might have to insist on major reshaped roster with endless whiners like bonehead JT jettisoned for starters. Cousins simply must stop absurd nonsense of complaining on obvious fouls and even more importantly stop reaching, flailing, constantly picking up all his silly cheap ones. To have his team mates respect as leader, DMC has to be seen as acting like steady on keel captain of the ship and not some pissed off whiner, bordering out of control on every other call. Show maturity, poise, determination equally to overcome it all no matter what happens. You are Boogie Monster - on to the next play and Kings next W. Just do it!
You know, the roster is auditioning for Karl to stay on the team, so there's a lot of selfishness and lack of patience going on, young guys are trying things, they mostly shouldn't do, and everybody is improvising as they go along, since it's a mid-season takeover. Malone's team had hierarchy, clear direction and as a result played as a coherent unit, until Ramon entered games. Boogie and Rudy are not particularly compatible with Miller, who prefers to wander inside the arc looking for openings, while top-2 prefers to control the ball themselves, not move around off the ball.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#15
To have a consistent team you have to have a plan, and, probably more importantly, the guts to see it through. You can't keep changing direction and then wonder why you haven't arrived at your destination. It's just about as simple as that. Going faster in the wrong direction isn't going to help you any.

Surprisingly, you will then see BBIQ (a term improperly used around these parts) magically rise.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#16
I'm pretty depressed right about now.

It's the same ol' Kings, year after year, loss after loss. A shiny brand new arena isn't going to fix everything. What do we have to do to see winning basketball here in Sacramento? I'm sick of seeing DMC moan and groan all game long, it's depressing. I'm at a loss for words right now, the lowest point in my fanaticalism life. A new coach isn't going to change anything. We're still the same ol' Sacramento Kings. :(:(
You mean our owners engineering multiple schemes to move or sell the team didn't make you feel worse than losing a game to the defending champions on the second night of a back-to-back in which the Kings flew all the way across the nation one and a half times in the span of three days while the Spurs were coming off of three days of rest?
 
#18
You know, the roster is auditioning for Karl to stay on the team, so there's a lot of selfishness and lack of patience going on, young guys are trying things, they mostly shouldn't do, and everybody is improvising as they go along, since it's a mid-season takeover. Malone's team had hierarchy, clear direction and as a result played as a coherent unit, until Ramon entered games. Boogie and Rudy are not particularly compatible with Miller, who prefers to wander inside the arc looking for openings, while top-2 prefers to control the ball themselves, not move around off the ball.
I've noticed the selfishness from Omri a lot lately, as soon as the ball hits his hands, he drives and takes a crapty layup.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#19
You know if we keep trading we might be able to make trades that benefit us in terms of fit but the quality of our players would never increase unless if we have a good coaching staff that will develop these players. In other words, we need appreciating assets in order to construct a better team... which means player development
Yep. It's hard to open a food truck when you can't cut onions.
 
#20
I am starting to get a little worried about this Karl and Cuz thing. After the Memphis game I told myself it would take a while for Karl to re tool his system to feature a premiere low post player... Now I'm starting to think Cuz won't ever fit in his system. :(
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#21
I am starting to get a little worried about this Karl and Cuz thing. After the Memphis game I told myself it would take a while for Karl to re tool his system to feature a premiere low post player... Now I'm starting to think Cuz won't ever fit in his system. :(
We should probably remember that they've been together for a whopping five games. (Eight if you include games missed due to injury)
 
#23
I'm pretty depressed right about now.

It's the same ol' Kings, year after year, loss after loss. A shiny brand new arena isn't going to fix everything. What do we have to do to see winning basketball here in Sacramento? I'm sick of seeing DMC moan and groan all game long, it's depressing. I'm at a loss for words right now, the lowest point in my fanaticalism life. A new coach isn't going to change anything. We're still the same ol' Sacramento Kings. :(:(
Actually a good coach is very necessary. In looking back at the glory years for our Kings,...it started with Rick Adelman pulling everyone together.

Obviously we need players that fit together, but also need consistency in a coaching 'system' and philosophy in order to gain rhythm and flow...without overthinking
 
#24
Cousins has to control his fouls and temper tirades. We saw a much improved DMC in those aspects when we were winning so im hoping thats the fix. Really a ton of his fouls are unnecessary. He gets hacked a ton but throwing tantrums will do nothing but make the refs swallow their whistle even more. Take the high road, play winning basketball and the whistles will come your way eventually.

Darren Collison back, Ray Mac plays with energy but cant run an offense to save his life.
 
#25
I think getting rid of the GM is the first step. But if they're not going down that route, they need to find shooters and team first players. I've seen way too many selfish play from the kings the past few years. Aren't they at the very bottom with assists per game?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#27
I'm pretty depressed right about now.

It's the same ol' Kings, year after year, loss after loss. A shiny brand new arena isn't going to fix everything. What do we have to do to see winning basketball here in Sacramento? I'm sick of seeing DMC moan and groan all game long, it's depressing. I'm at a loss for words right now, the lowest point in my fanaticalism life. A new coach isn't going to change anything. We're still the same ol' Sacramento Kings. :(:(
Really? You want to know what whining is? Read your own post. After the few games Karl has coached, my optimism is at a renewed high. But then, that's an emotion free opinion. We see what we want to see mi amigo, and that's what you doing, or, your not seeing at all. I'm curious, just what did you expect in last nights game? The Kings flew from Sacramento to New York, and blew out a bad Knicks team that's going through the motions. After the game they got on a plane and flew halfway back to Sacramento to San Antonio, probably arrived in the wee small hours of the morning, got up not knowing for sure where they were, and went to the arena to play the well rested, current world champions. Shockingly, after one quarter, they started to fall apart.

But of course, you, Mr. sit on the couch in the comfort of your home, being well rested, watch the game, and say, no excuses!! I don't care if your tired. I don't care if the other team is just a better team. I don't care if you and your teammates are trying to learn a brand new system. I expect you to be competitive and win this damm game. I suggest you've watched too many Disney movies. The movie Miracle is the exception, not the rule. That's why it's a movie. You've lost touch with reality. These are human beings with feelings, emotions, and I might add, tired legs, tired minds, and of late, no winning tradition. They wake up not feeling good, just like you. There are days they would like to call in sick, just like you. But hey, no excuses, right?

Turning this team around is going to take some time. But I think less time with Karl at the helm. To say that hiring Karl isn't going to change anything, does more damage to your credibility, than it justifies your implication. To say that you lack patience would be a huge understatement. Personally, I find the premise of this thread insulting to my intelligence, and the height of knee jerk reaction.
 
#28
New system with the 3rd coach in 1 season. Karl is still working almost entirely with the Malone/Corbin assistant coaches. On top of that, Karl has a completely different style of play than Malone did, and therefore we need players to fit his system. I too have some fear about Karl fitting Cuz into his system, but i have faith that the man knows what he's doing.

Also, Karl's system requires a lot of 3 point shots, which we OBVIOUSLY don't have the personnel for right now. I can't tell you how many games i thought we could have won if we could hit a damn 3 point shot. I'll wait until after the offseason roster moves are complete before i fall into a pit of despair and depression. It would be amazing if Karl came in and turned the current team into a contender, but come on, that's just unrealistic.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#29
I am starting to get a little worried about this Karl and Cuz thing. After the Memphis game I told myself it would take a while for Karl to re tool his system to feature a premiere low post player... Now I'm starting to think Cuz won't ever fit in his system. :(
Yeah! What has it been now? Five games or so? Hell, that should be enough time don't you think? My god, do you people read what you write? Really? After a few games on the job, the Cousins/Karl relationship is doomed? I feel like I've wandered into a mental ward for dysfunctional sports fans. Fearing for my own sanity, I bid this thread farewell.
 
P

PoundForPound

Guest
#30
Really? You want to know what whining is? Read your own post. After the few games Karl has coached, my optimism is at a renewed high. But then, that's an emotion free opinion. We see what we want to see mi amigo, and that's what you doing, or, your not seeing at all. I'm curious, just what did you expect in last nights game? The Kings flew from Sacramento to New York, and blew out a bad Knicks team that's going through the motions. After the game they got on a plane and flew halfway back to Sacramento to San Antonio, probably arrived in the wee small hours of the morning, got up not knowing for sure where they were, and went to the arena to play the well rested, current world champions. Shockingly, after one quarter, they started to fall apart.

But of course, you, Mr. sit on the couch in the comfort of your home, being well rested, watch the game, and say, no excuses!! I don't care if your tired. I don't care if the other team is just a better team. I don't care if you and your teammates are trying to learn a brand new system. I expect you to be competitive and win this damm game. I suggest you've watched too many Disney movies. The movie Miracle is the exception, not the rule. That's why it's a movie. You've lost touch with reality. These are human beings with feelings, emotions, and I might add, tired legs, tired minds, and of late, no winning tradition. They wake up not feeling good, just like you. There are days they would like to call in sick, just like you. But hey, no excuses, right?

Turning this team around is going to take some time. But I think less time with Karl at the helm. To say that hiring Karl isn't going to change anything, does more damage to your credibility, than it justifies your implication. To say that you lack patience would be a huge understatement. Personally, I find the premise of this thread insulting to my intelligence, and the height of knee jerk reaction.
Bajaden I respect your opinion. With that said, that second paragraph tells a lot about your mindset. I don't care if this team is playing on a back to back, 3 games in four nights, whatever the schedule may be, you stated that you didn't expect a win and that way of thinking is what losers do. Losers don't expect win. Losers find excuses, even if statistically the Kings were up against the odds, winners find a way to get it done, winners expect to be victorious. If you're going into a game with the belief that a win would be surprising, you've already lost.

I understand, you're a fan just like all of us and you try to remain optimistic, but you've really got to reconsider your logic. Maybe our brains work different. I want a winning team, no excuses.