What's this position-less basketball? (split)

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#31
And you know this how?
The same way you know its not true. Except mine actually makes sense. Ending contracts and "flexible pieces" was that they were after, and they had literally NO other suitors. We were it. Now given Greivis and Jimmer both sitting there, they are going to ask for Greivis. Given no choice, they would have taken anything they could have gotten, because they needed him gone, and we were the only conduit.
 
#32
We did nothing of that kind. That attempt at justification gets repeated but it does not stand. Toronto did not care if Greivis was in that trade. The irony was they actually were TRYING to tank. And it failed in epic turnaround fashion. They just wanted to liquidate Rudy. Jimmer's ending contract would have done just as well.
There's no way we were going to pay Rudy whatever he makes and Reke 11 mil. And Cuz the max. They had their eye on Rudy before the Reke decision.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#34
Toronto had a weird way of showing how little they cared whether they got Vazquez when they resigned him.
They never expected things to work the way they did. At the time they were shopping Rudy they were simultaneously looking for Lowry suitors, THAT'S how bad a read they had on what was going to happen. They had Wiggins ambitions. But they accidentally won. So what do you do when you accidentally win for the first time in a long time? You try to resign the pieces you accidentally won with and hope it keeps on working.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#35
There's no way we were going to pay Rudy whatever he makes and Reke 11 mil. And Cuz the max. They had their eye on Rudy before the Reke decision.
Sure there was. Or rather there would have been had they had a less biased read on Reke's abilities. Hell, they were apparently hunting around paying Cuz, Rudy and Josh Smith at $14. Or Rondo. Or just whoever. We're pretty clearly willing to star up, and $11mil is actually a nice cheap contract compared to most of the ones we've been attached to over the past year.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#36
The same way you know its not true. Except mine actually makes sense. Ending contracts and "flexible pieces" was that they were after, and they had literally NO other suitors. We were it. Now given Greivis and Jimmer both sitting there, they are going to ask for Greivis. Given no choice, they would have taken anything they could have gotten, because they needed him gone, and we were the only conduit.
Whoa I never claimed to know truth in what the front offices were thinking. I do know what's done is done. We lost reke we got rudy back with parts of the reke deal. Unless you were in the front office you can't have certainty. Bottom line I would have demanded GV. Tor may have wanted him gone but I doubt they wanted him gone that badly. We can disagree on that thought at least I can admit I may be wrong as I was not in on the discussions.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#37
They never expected things to work the way they did. At the time they were shopping Rudy they were simultaneously looking for Lowry suitors, THAT'S how bad a read they had on what was going to happen. They had Wiggins ambitions. But they accidentally won. So what do you do when you accidentally win for the first time in a long time? You try to resign the pieces you accidentally won with and hope it keeps on working.
So they got rid of rudy to get worse? And they didn't insist on Jimmer? Or r u saying they thought GV was worse than jimmer?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#38
So they got rid of rudy to get worse? And they didn't insist on Jimmer? Or r u saying they thought GV was worse than jimmer?
The plan was to dump Rudy, then dump Lowry, take a dive, come out young and full of what they would have called potential. Enders and kids only. True rebuild. Under such a plan you still would prefer to have a PG to keep things in some sort of order once Lowry was dealt. What Philly did was very very rare. And of course the more talented piece you have, the better trade asset you possess. Teams will always take what they can.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#39
Maybe, with respect to D-Will, we should take Vivek's remarks about positionless basketball literally - he is literally a guy without a position on this team. Not that he can play several positions; he can play none.

I think Brick has it right - don't confuse talented players whose talent allows them to play several positions, a la LBJ or Magic Johnson, with mediocre talents who can't find a position like Williams.

Vivek is an extremely smart man. But smarts without experience can get you into trouble in the early years of any venture you try to do. (In the more classical sense, smarts doesn't equate to wisdom). He obviously loves to look at things differently, to tinker in his mind with the way others look at basketball and how it was played. He's been amazingly successful with his business by looking at things differently. He was successful in his tinkering with his first experience with his daughter's basketball team. But this may have actually postponed his development as a basketball mind. It wouldn't be the first time that a bright guy thinks he sees something profound, but really it's not profound. It's just a semantical exercise - describing something differently with words, but not actually discovering something different in terms of reality. Because Vivek is a smart guy, and because he does know that he doesn't truly know, I'm hoping that when he sees his experiments unfold on the floor he's going to be a quick learner. He's a pragmatist, after all. If it works, it's full speed ahead, but if it doesn't, I would expect him to change course and adapt fairly quickly.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#40
Maybe, with respect to D-Will, we should take Vivek's remarks about positionless basketball literally - he is literally a guy without a position on this team. Not that he can play several positions; he can play none.

I think Brick has it right - don't confuse talented players whose talent allows them to play several positions, a la LBJ or Magic Johnson, with mediocre talents who can't find a position like Williams.

Vivek is an extremely smart man. But smarts without experience can get you into trouble in the early years of any venture you try to do. (In the more classical sense, smarts doesn't equate to wisdom). He obviously loves to look at things differently, to tinker in his mind with the way others look at basketball and how it was played. He's been amazingly successful with his business by looking at things differently. He was successful in his tinkering with his first experience with his daughter's basketball team. But this may have actually postponed his development as a basketball mind. It wouldn't be the first time that a bright guy thinks he sees something profound, but really it's not profound. It's just a semantical exercise - describing something differently with words, but not actually discovering something different in terms of reality. Because Vivek is a smart guy, and because he does know that he doesn't truly know, I'm hoping that when he sees his experiments unfold on the floor he's going to be a quick learner. He's a pragmatist, after all. If it works, it's full speed ahead, but if it doesn't, I would expect him to change course and adapt fairly quickly.
Just to expand, Vivek has to know when to back off. Certainly he knows that the NBA has gotten to where it is because a lot of smart people with a lifetime of experience have brought it to where it is. The likelihood that he will discover something earthy shakingly new is remote. Just the same, Vivek may come up with something. I'm glad he is our owner.

Love the comment on DWill.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#41
Not having one trick ponies in the league is what separates the contenders from the pretenders. More and more teams are looking to draft two way players, easier said than done but it can be done with proper scouting, drafting and system.
 
J

jdbraver

Guest
#42
Not having one trick ponies in the league is what separates the contenders from the pretenders. More and more teams are looking to draft two way players, easier said than done but it can be done with proper scouting, drafting and system.
I prefer 4,5 or 6 way players.
 
#43
The plan was to dump Rudy, then dump Lowry, take a dive, come out young and full of what they would have called potential. Enders and kids only. True rebuild. Under such a plan you still would prefer to have a PG to keep things in some sort of order once Lowry was dealt. What Philly did was very very rare. And of course the more talented piece you have, the better trade asset you possess. Teams will always take what they can.
You sure KNOW an awful lot about the supposed plans of a team 3000 miles away while you sit here in Sacramento.

All of your crying and moaning about the loss of Tyreke (which eventually allowed the Kings to get Gay) then gets spun into this convoluted process of: "Toronto didn't want Vasquez, they won by accident, now they have to resign him because of said accident but trust me they don't want, they wanted to lose except that they won.......i want Tyreke back so I'm going to keep whining about it all while acting like I know the inner workings of every team in the league and calling the local GM a Gerbil and acting like a Jim Rome wannabe....... blah blah blah". Rinse Cycle Repeat o_O
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#44
You sure KNOW an awful lot about the supposed plans of a team 3000 miles away while you sit here in Sacramento.

All of your crying and moaning about the loss of Tyreke (which eventually allowed the Kings to get Gay) then gets spun into this convoluted process of: "Toronto didn't want Vasquez, they won by accident, now they have to resign him because of said accident but trust me they don't want, they wanted to lose except that they won.......i want Tyreke back so I'm going to keep whining about it all while acting like I know the inner workings of every team in the league and calling the local GM a Gerbil and acting like a Jim Rome wannabe....... blah blah blah". Rinse Cycle Repeat o_O
I am considerably closer to Toronto than I am to Sacramento, and yes, belong to a class of people who actually watch many games and many teams and generally keep up on league goings on, not just Sacto goings on. And the Toronto stuff was well known and oft talked about back before the event. Gay was Colangelo's last win now mistake. Masai was taking over, going to clear out the mistakes and bad contracts, and start his own rebuild.
 
#45
I am considerably closer to Toronto than I am to Sacramento, and yes, belong to a class of people who actually watch many games and many teams and generally keep up on league goings on, not just Sacto goings on. And the Toronto stuff was well known and oft talked about back before the event. Gay was Colangelo's last win now mistake. Masai was taking over, going to clear out the mistakes and bad contracts, and start his own rebuild.
Same here I follow many teams around the league but you don't know for sure that their plan was to lose and totally rebuild. After all in the Eastern Conference you can "win" and I use that term loosely while building at the same time. Many said the plan was for Derozan to become their "go to guy" and that they wanted to see what Lowry could do truly running the team. Vasquez and Lowry are both big enough to run them out their together at times so I don't think you can assume that Vasquez was just a throw in to make the trade work. It's quite possible that they actually wanted Vasquez.
 
#46
Same here I follow many teams around the league but you don't know for sure that their plan was to lose and totally rebuild. After all in the Eastern Conference you can "win" and I use that term loosely while building at the same time. Many said the plan was for Derozan to become their "go to guy" and that they wanted to see what Lowry could do truly running the team. Vasquez and Lowry are both big enough to run them out their together at times so I don't think you can assume that Vasquez was just a throw in to make the trade work. It's quite possible that they actually wanted Vasquez.
You're absolutely correct in that they might have made Vasquez a required part of the trade when it happened.
But here is the thing that I think you might want to consider:

That is, they required Vasquez only because he was an ender on OUR team. If we had not done the Sign-And-Trade with New Orleans, then the likelihood that we don't do the Rudy trade because Vasquez was on a different team is negligible. If Vasquez was in New Orleans and Jimmer's ender would have worked from a salary perspective then we still more than likely do the Rudy trade because Toronto was looking to move Rudy while not hurting their long-term flexibility, and Jimmer's Ender (in that case) would have worked just as well as Vasquez'.

So not having Vasquez on the roster more than likely does not stop the Rudy trade from happening because they were desperate to unload Rudy and give the reigns to DeRozan and Lowry since Rudy obviously was not working with the rest of the team.

Now since Vasquez was on our roster, then absolutely, you ask for Vasquez and his ender over Jimmer and his ender, but I can't believe that Toronto would have said, "You know what, we really want to trade Rudy to you, but could you see about working out something with New Orleans to get Vasquez included in the deal and sent over to us?"

With all that said, when looking at the SF landscape prior to the off-season, Rudy was one of the last 'high-level' SFs that I wanted on my roster. I didn't think that he'd be a good fit next to Tyreke and Cousins, especially at his salary. If we were going for a 'high-level' SF then my first choice would have been Iggy, then probably followed by Deng, Batum, Howard, and Parsons. Rudy would not have helped the roster as much as these other guys if you paired him with Tyreke and Cousins. But once we lost Tyreke we had to find a 2nd option and all-of-a-sudden Rudy looks like a fantastic option at SF.

So I don't know if I would have been super happy about making the Rudy trade if we still had Tyreke, but I do believe that we could have made that trade with Toronto with Tyreke still on the roster by using Jimmer's ender instead of Vasquez', because Toronto would have basically had no choice but to take Jimmer because what they really were looking for was cap flexibility with the ending contract, and Jimmer would have suited just fine in that regard.
 
#48
I agree that the talk was of Toronto planning to tank to be in the Wiggins lotto. Sometimes a team is greater than the sum of their parts and that's what happened in Toronto, plus they play in the East.

As for the topic of the thread I'm hoping we are just a little quick to be concerned about the words Vivek uses. IMO the new brain trust has done a generally good job retooling the Kings around Cousins.

It would nice if Elfrid Payton was a King but Stauskas looked promising in SL. He looks like a guy who makes his teammates better. How long has it been since the Kings had a guy like that? Plus the McSophomores both looked much better in their second go around. I'm starting to think if Moreland and/or Oriakhi turn into a the SL Gem the Kings need we might have something.

Perhaps all that is needed is time. Time for the young guys to grow from experience, good coaching and just life. Time for the team to gel after hearing the plan of Malone for the second training camp.

I can even put up with a little small ball as long as it is only a change of pace tactic used sparingly. But mostly I want to see full sized lineups utilizing the advantages of the size of Cousins and Gay. I want to see Cousins punish the other team inside. Gay taking those midrange shots over shorter opponents. Evans, JT, Moreland, Oriakhi, Acy and Landry pound the boards. Collison, Stauskas, Ray and Ben can play the GUARD positions and do it well.

Play the guys in position, let them know their role and then let them grow in those roles. Bill Walsh was a master of this in another sport. With a pre-determined script of plays the team all knew well and Walsh's attention to detail the 49er's were almost unstoppable on their first two drives. This was a tremendous advantage as it often put the other team in a hole to start the game. Its nice when you are up 14 to 0 before the other team gets good and warmed up. The way Adelman ran the team is the basketball analogy of Walsh IMO. In a perfect world Vivek would recruit Adelman as a consultant. Adelman could fill the role Coachie did but perhaps on a part time basis.

Go Kings!
 
#49
I cringe every time I hear 'position less' basketball.

What I HOPE it means, is that every player on the court can perform every basketball skill. Shoot. Pass. Defend. Slash. Dribble. Rebound. Etc. And Vivek/PDA are just trying to use some catchy (terrible) buzzword for it.

It's becoming a crutch to some degree because its so ambiguous. Something doesn't work out? no biggy. Position less basketball, remember? Carl Landry signing? Position less basketball. Taking SG's in back-to-back years because Ben had a bad rookie season... you guessed it, position less basketball!!!!

Has Malone ever referred to position-less basketball? I want to say he hasn't, which is pretty funny. I feel bad for Malone sometimes. PDA and Vivek spouting out basketball nonsense half the time, and Malone is like, 'Guys, just find me a couple defenders. Please. Pretty Pretty Please.'
 
#50
you bet i'll be looking for position-less basketball all season since they are promoting it so hard. they need to paint a bulls eye on their back with the word position-less.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#52
I cringe every time I hear 'position less' basketball.

What I HOPE it means, is that every player on the court can perform every basketball skill. Shoot. Pass. Defend. Slash. Dribble. Rebound. Etc. And Vivek/PDA are just trying to use some catchy (terrible) buzzword for it.

It's becoming a crutch to some degree because its so ambiguous. Something doesn't work out? no biggy. Position less basketball, remember? Carl Landry signing? Position less basketball. Taking SG's in back-to-back years because Ben had a bad rookie season... you guessed it, position less basketball!!!!

Has Malone ever referred to position-less basketball? I want to say he hasn't, which is pretty funny. I feel bad for Malone sometimes. PDA and Vivek spouting out basketball nonsense half the time, and Malone is like, 'Guys, just find me a couple defenders. Please. Pretty Pretty Please.'
I think the term, "Position less basketball" sounds far worse than it is. Like you, I almost wish they would stop using it. But its not a new concept. At least not the way I would describe it. Cousins for instance can play either center or PF. So in essence, he's not locked into just one position. More teams are going with players that are more combo guards than they are pure PG's. Players that can play both the SF and PF positions (stretch fours) are becoming the rage of the NBA. Having players that are capable of playing more than one position is always a plus, but only if they can play them well. In the triangle offense, the SF sometimes becomes the PG, or point forward. With the Princeton offense, just about everyone on the floor can be the distributor, or PG in a given moment. So none of this is new, its just that the Kings have given if a new name of sorts. Personally, I'm not too crazy about the new name. Sounds like something a nerd would come up with to remind people of how smart they are.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#54
In a way it's naming what all the great teams have done. Inconveniently, it's also what all the awful teams experience.

BUT. And I think it is a big but.

The winning teams don't sit around and say "Oh gee, we just need a pure PG to run our offense and then everything is rings" while that is exactly what you hear losers say. I think the idea, is solid. You get your best players and you build around them. If you're best player is a 6'9 "small forward" who dribbles like a PG and can defend a good chunk of "power forwards" then you no longer worry about filling team needs in terms of pure anything.

That's all it is. I don't like buzzwords but I get it. And the reality is everything is a buzzword now.
 

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#56
"Position Plus" ™ sounds nicer, and likely more accurate. Maybe someone can forward that up the ladder to the brain trust.


Please note my ™, and its significance to this discussion. Thank you.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#58
Upon further research I have found there is a direct link between position less basketball and mindless management
 
C

calipublicist

Guest
#59
Big men want to be guards now and guards want to be big men... That's contributed to a lot of it.