Trade Fox???
- Thread starter sactowndog
- Start date
Right now the Kings have a chance to kind of do a partial reset come 2025/26 if they move off of some salary or 2026/27 if they don't. Kind of like the Sixers this summer with their last chance to keep Embiid from bailing. Timing a Fox and Keegan re-signing with a little cap space to add another piece might be doable. As long as Monte doesn't load his cap with any long term contracts of course.
Fox developed a decent 3 point shot this year and consequently "4th quarter Fox" took a holiday. He also continued to improve defensively. I think that his next step is learning to control it and drive when it is still the better play and get a guaranteed 2 point play, also learning how to get calls and be a better FT shooter. If he wants to be an all star he needs to utilize all the tools in the toolbelt. He became over reliant on a new trick this year and was less effective for doing so.
He was 4th in 4th quarter ppg in the league, but for sure he wasn't the "clutch player of the year" like last season. The big issue was that Kings turned only to Fox heroball at the last quarter in crunch time and after last season the opponents had studied this and managed to block it. Also according to himself he doesn't want to "learn how to go to the free throw line", he just feels that he doesn't get the calls he deserves but "it is what it is". He won't flop but as we have seen many times he will mock their opponents when flopping and somehow getting the calls that they are after by doing so. Ofc I fully agree that he needs to attack the basket more (did it vs the Pels but when it was way too late) and no idea why his ft pct dropped so much this season. Also I think he has to be more mature mentally, I think he was shown less "T"s this season but still he "leads the team" and has to be a bit more careful with the ball to avoid "unforced turnovers".
Needless to say I wouldn't trade him for any player in the league literally.
Needless to say I wouldn't trade him for any player in the league literally.
So this post was brought up on Real GM and it might be worth considering. It opens up cap space to resign Monk and balances the roster.
Kings:
Out: Fox
In: Ingram and 4 1sts
Kings roster:
Point: Monk, Mitchell, 1st at 13/14
2 Guard: Ellis, Huerter, Jones
3: Ingram, Edwards, Da Silva 18 2024
4: Keegan, Barnes, Sasha
5: Domas, Lyles, Len
Kings:
Out: Fox
In: Ingram and 4 1sts
Kings roster:
Point: Monk, Mitchell, 1st at 13/14
2 Guard: Ellis, Huerter, Jones
3: Ingram, Edwards, Da Silva 18 2024
4: Keegan, Barnes, Sasha
5: Domas, Lyles, Len
No one on the roster is untouchable, but you only trade Fox if you can make a clear upgrade. His 4th quarter play last season led them to several wins in games that clearly could have gone the other way. And he came back this season with a much improved outside shot that made him even tougher to defend.
Plus he (at least as far as I know) has always wanted to be here.
I have a hard time believing that the Pelicans would offer Ingram and 4 FRPs, but even if they did, do you really want to go back to hoping for draft picks to make this a winning team when we already have that today?
Plus he (at least as far as I know) has always wanted to be here.
I have a hard time believing that the Pelicans would offer Ingram and 4 FRPs, but even if they did, do you really want to go back to hoping for draft picks to make this a winning team when we already have that today?
I don't want to see him become a ref baiting free throw merchant and I don't know what's in his head but it really feels like his inability to generate calls has something to do with his eagerness to settle for the three now that it's in his bag. Going away from what makes him great really doesn't help us especially since generating early fouls can radically change a game. Arguably getting a few guys in foul trouble early is far more valuable than 3 or 4 made threes.
well I’m not convinced this team wouldn’t be a better team.
here is my thought process …..
using per 36 stats. ……
Fox 26.6 pts 36.9% from 3 4.6 Boards 5.7 assists
Malik 21.3 pts. 35% from 3 4.1 Boards 7.1 assists
delta -5.3 -1.9% -.5 Boards. +1.4 assists
Monk plays a better 2 man game with Sabonis than does Fox. Fox surprisingly shoots a higher percentage from 3 but has fewer assists than Malik….
so you have to assume you have a drop but if you start Malik it’s not huge.
By contrast …..
Barnes 15.1 38.7% from 3 3.8 Boards 1.5 assists
BI. 22.8. 35.5% from 3 5.5 Boards. 6.2 assists.
delta + 7.7 pts -3.2 from 3 + 1.7 Boards +4.7 assists
I am also slightly intrigued by the offensive sets which would be either
A) Ingram or Keegan running dribble handoffs around Sabonis
B) Ingram and Keegan in the corners while Monk and Domas run a pick and roll. I’m not sure how you stop it (will edit to add corner C&S 3%)
not corner but may indicate less positive than thought ….. btw going to add Kessler
Barnes 38.2
Murray 37.5
Ingram 36.9
for those saying we couldn’t play Kessler in Pels game …..
Edwards 40.4%
here is my thought process …..
using per 36 stats. ……
Fox 26.6 pts 36.9% from 3 4.6 Boards 5.7 assists
Malik 21.3 pts. 35% from 3 4.1 Boards 7.1 assists
delta -5.3 -1.9% -.5 Boards. +1.4 assists
Monk plays a better 2 man game with Sabonis than does Fox. Fox surprisingly shoots a higher percentage from 3 but has fewer assists than Malik….
so you have to assume you have a drop but if you start Malik it’s not huge.
By contrast …..
Barnes 15.1 38.7% from 3 3.8 Boards 1.5 assists
BI. 22.8. 35.5% from 3 5.5 Boards. 6.2 assists.
delta + 7.7 pts -3.2 from 3 + 1.7 Boards +4.7 assists
I am also slightly intrigued by the offensive sets which would be either
A) Ingram or Keegan running dribble handoffs around Sabonis
B) Ingram and Keegan in the corners while Monk and Domas run a pick and roll. I’m not sure how you stop it (will edit to add corner C&S 3%)
not corner but may indicate less positive than thought ….. btw going to add Kessler
Barnes 38.2
Murray 37.5
Ingram 36.9
for those saying we couldn’t play Kessler in Pels game …..
Edwards 40.4%
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You're also counting on Malik returning to the Kings for likely less than he could get on the open market AFTER they trade away his best friend in the NBA and the biggest reason he signed with the Kings in the first place. So what happens if you lose both Monk and Fox? Ingram is a good player but not as good as De'Aaron and certainly not better than Fox AND Monk. Also, while he's pretty good from outside, he does a LOT of his work inside the arc which collapses spacing somewhat.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=brandon+ingram+shot+chart+2023-2024
Ingram is okay on defense, but he's not really the high level defender we'd all like to see between Sabonis and Murray. If anything it leaves the Kings with too much frontcourt scoring and not enough spacing or guard scoring. So we just end up with a different roster that's still unbalanced.
I don't think those middle of the first round draft picks (assuming the Pelicans are even willing to offer 3 or 4 FRPs in this proposed deal) are going to be enough to make this a better roster. Definitely not in the short term, and probably not in the long term either.
Honestly, I'd rather try and pry Jonathan Isaac from the Magic than think about trading Fox for Ingram.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=brandon+ingram+shot+chart+2023-2024
Ingram is okay on defense, but he's not really the high level defender we'd all like to see between Sabonis and Murray. If anything it leaves the Kings with too much frontcourt scoring and not enough spacing or guard scoring. So we just end up with a different roster that's still unbalanced.
I don't think those middle of the first round draft picks (assuming the Pelicans are even willing to offer 3 or 4 FRPs in this proposed deal) are going to be enough to make this a better roster. Definitely not in the short term, and probably not in the long term either.
Honestly, I'd rather try and pry Jonathan Isaac from the Magic than think about trading Fox for Ingram.
This is why fan and media voting for awards and All-Star spots is dumb. Half of your argument against building around Fox/Sabonis is that 12 year olds in LA and New York and/or the bot farms overseas don't like them enough to vote them into the All-Star game?
This team won 46 games and finished two wins short of making the playoffs. The first iteration of the JWill, Webber, Vlade, and Peja Kings won 44 games and lost in the first round. Obviously the salaries in 2024 are comparatively absurd but that's not an argument to blow up a winning team. Last season this same core won 48 games and lost in Game 7 to Golden State. We need to upgrade the Nick Anderson's and Corliss Williamson's on this current roster not get rid of the core.
This team won 46 games and finished two wins short of making the playoffs. The first iteration of the JWill, Webber, Vlade, and Peja Kings won 44 games and lost in the first round. Obviously the salaries in 2024 are comparatively absurd but that's not an argument to blow up a winning team. Last season this same core won 48 games and lost in Game 7 to Golden State. We need to upgrade the Nick Anderson's and Corliss Williamson's on this current roster not get rid of the core.
A more simple approach is to improve the role players and not blow up the core. Seems way easier to get done.
Need a performance jump from Kessler Edwards and Colby Jones like Keon Ellis provided.
Figure out if your in or out on Sasha.
Bring Monk back but if you can’t at least Keon provides a replacement but the Kings lose one of the only guys who can create their own O and that needs to be improved. Another guy who can run pick and roll with Domas would be great
Need a performance jump from Kessler Edwards and Colby Jones like Keon Ellis provided.
Figure out if your in or out on Sasha.
Bring Monk back but if you can’t at least Keon provides a replacement but the Kings lose one of the only guys who can create their own O and that needs to be improved. Another guy who can run pick and roll with Domas would be great
Trading away Fox after trading away Halliburton would be very silly. Trading away Fox is a non-starter now. Or should be.
That being said, I fully agree with those who have said that Fox and Sabonis need not be paid the absolute maxes that they are "qualified" to get. Fox isn't Curry. Sabonis isn't Jokic. For the Kings to win, they're going to need better #2s, #3s, #4s and #5s than Curry or Jokic have. And Curry had brilliant #2s, #3s and even #4s in Klay, Iggy, Draymond and then Durant and Wiggins. Jokic has also had a brilliant surrounding cast the last few years. The Kings can't get or keep those kind of supporting cast if the Kings are paying Fox and Sabonis like Curry and Jokic. The two need to take paycuts in the future, for the simple reason that they are not as good as the #1s and #2s on the teams they will be facing. And they should not take it as a challenge or a negative either, just need to accept reality and figure out whether winning rings is more important that getting paid or "proving themselves". The ultimate way of proving oneself is through winning a ring.
That being said, I fully agree with those who have said that Fox and Sabonis need not be paid the absolute maxes that they are "qualified" to get. Fox isn't Curry. Sabonis isn't Jokic. For the Kings to win, they're going to need better #2s, #3s, #4s and #5s than Curry or Jokic have. And Curry had brilliant #2s, #3s and even #4s in Klay, Iggy, Draymond and then Durant and Wiggins. Jokic has also had a brilliant surrounding cast the last few years. The Kings can't get or keep those kind of supporting cast if the Kings are paying Fox and Sabonis like Curry and Jokic. The two need to take paycuts in the future, for the simple reason that they are not as good as the #1s and #2s on the teams they will be facing. And they should not take it as a challenge or a negative either, just need to accept reality and figure out whether winning rings is more important that getting paid or "proving themselves". The ultimate way of proving oneself is through winning a ring.
IMO our team needs length. I think Ingram would be great if we keep Fox and Domas. If that could be done. It was hard to watch losing to New Orleans 6 times in a row. We just could not deal with them physically. We need length and more physically dominant players. Or pick up the pace and play like last year and just outscore the other teams. Our defence was better but that seemed to take too much from our offence. We were not built for it.