To post or not to post?

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#1
This is an article in Grantland about today's modern NBA, the lack of the post game, and why. I warn you, it's a long article, but in my opinion, well worth the read. There are some quotes from Geroge Karl and other head coaches around the league. I haven't seen if posted yet, and if it has, I apologize. I posted it here because there has been much discussion about what type of offense is the best to win a championship, plus it has quotes from Karl.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/w...he-nba-post-up-game-to-bring-you-its-rebirth/
 
#2
I read this article yesterday. Really interesting comments from Karl. I know some including myself have been a little bit skeptical of Karl and Cuz due to Karl's offensive style, and this article continues to add some fear that Cuz and Karl may not be a match made in heaven. I'm still giving Karl the benefit of the doubt for now, but it kind of seems like maybe he shouldn't have commented in this article and kept those thoughts private? I don't know, maybe everyone else found the comments harmless, but i feel it kind leads you to believe Karl may move away from a post heavy offense, despite having arguably the best post up player in the league right now. We shall see...
 
#3
I read this article yesterday. Really interesting comments from Karl. I know some including myself have been a little bit skeptical of Karl and Cuz due to Karl's offensive style, and this article continues to add some fear that Cuz and Karl may not be a match made in heaven. I'm still giving Karl the benefit of the doubt for now, but it kind of seems like maybe he shouldn't have commented in this article and kept those thoughts private? I don't know, maybe everyone else found the comments harmless, but i feel it kind leads you to believe Karl may move away from a post heavy offense, despite having arguably the best post up player in the league right now. We shall see...
I think with just how the league has evolved, Karl isn't wrong. Playing smash mouth basketball isn't going to work a lot in the NBA anymore.The Grizzlies are the only ones who resemble remotely anything close to it, but they have guys who can defend 1-5.

We've seen how the Warriors are able to contain Cousins. For them, it's having a guy who can match up physically to Cuz AND it's their scheme. Once the NBA figures out how the Warriors do it, they'll adapt it and shut down Cuz. I don't think we can go back to the offense Malone was running no matter how good it was in a small sample size.

Boogie has also evolved as a player on offense. In his first 3 years, he was primarily a post player who had amazing footwork and could hit hook shots and etc. Now, Cousins still does post up, but he relies more on spin moves and quickness to get to the rim. He also has a very nice face up game to the point where he can take slower centers to the rim with his quickness OR he can make a mid range jumper.

I honestly think Cousins has evolved his game to the point where he fits this new style of the NBA bit more. Cousins and Griffin are both easily the two best big men in the game. They have a bit of a traditional game and post up. Remarkable for Blake considering he started off as just a high energy guy who dunks.

Cousins is the acception because of how talented he is.

We will start seeing more bigs like Davis, Noel, Jordan, Chandler, Patterson, Terrence Jones, and etc. It's just the way the NBA is today.

Maybe Vivek and PDA weren't so crazy when they were talking about pace..
 
#4
Very good article.
And while it details the reasons for the rise of the slasher vs the post-up player, it also surmises that post-up play may well make a comeback next year, with many reasons why.

A point made in the article was: Post-up play isn't necessarily dead - it's that post-up players are getting rarer.
If you have a good playmaking post-up player, it may well feed right into what the NBA is doing nowadays.

I'm still waiting for the Kings to do what other successful post-up teams have done when their opponent fronts the big guy:
Pass it into the top of the key/freethrow-line and have the fronted big man cut to the basket then hit him with the pass.

What are the Kings waiting for to develop that play?
Until after Demarcus leaves?
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#5
I'm pretty sure that it's not a binary proposition. The thing about the 'evolution' of the 'modern' NBA to me is that I feel like the only person really qualified to speak about what it takes to win a championship in the 'modern' NBA is the guy who won the most recent championship. Everybody else is either working from old data, or guessing.

For all of Karl's credentials, he's only even made it past the first round once in anything that can be reasonably described as the 'modern' NBA. So I am somewhat reticent to put my faith in a guy who may be wedded to a particular system, especially when that system has never really incorporated a low post player, like Cousins. I feel like Cousins' talents would be better suited to a slightly slower style. Not slow, like, 90s Knicks slow, just slower than I think Karl wants to go. My concern is that there may be too much pressure to conform to what's hot in the streets, and not enough interest or commitment to just do our own thing.

Now, it's entirely possible that 'our own thing' just happens to be what everybody else is doing, but you'll pardon me if I remain skeptical.
 
#6
Cousins is the acception because of how talented he is.
And Rudy Gay, too. When they are off the court, we'll need to run a different kind of offense; the pick and roll seems like the best option. But so far, I'd really urge Karl to try what has worked in the past for the Kings (post-up-oriented style), and then at least see that style fail or succeed, to see if its sustainable.

We won't need to adopt this new style if another style works for us. Ugly style or beautiful style, trendy or not trendy, we need to stick with what works.
 
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funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#7
Maybe Vivek and PDA weren't so crazy when they were talking about pace..
I don't think that's what Lowe was getting at in his article at all. I think he was explaining why postups have decreased while also positing that they could (and maybe should) make a comeback. And that having both guards and bigs that can post up is valuable.

We've seen how the Warriors are able to contain Cousins. For them, it's having a guy who can match up physically to Cuz AND it's their scheme. Once the NBA figures out how the Warriors do it, they'll adapt it and shut down Cuz.
As Draymond Green said in the article, the Warriors stymied Boogie by waiting until he started to make his move to double because otherwise he'd carve them up with his passing. To me the answer there isn't to say we should stop posting Cousins up because other teams will shut him down in the same way. To me the answer is for Cousins to learn to not have tunnel vision when he makes his move in the post AND for the Kings to have better shooters to make opponents pay more consistently.

I actually don't think Cousin's offensive game has evolved all that much. Yes, he's absolutely gotten better in a LOT of ways/areas but his jump shooting and finesse takes to the hoop were there from his first summer league game. If anything I think it's that Calipari limited Boogie's game at Kentucky much more than it evolved in the NBA.

And even as the NBA gets more and more perimeter oriented the reality is that you always need a guy who can either get an easy score at the basket or draw the defense to stopping him from getting that basket so he can kick it out to shooters. You can do that by attacking off the dribble or with a post up. And its often important to have both.

The Rockets championship teams with Olajuwon would fit right in to today's NBA. And while Boogie isn't as unguardable in the post as The Dream, he's the closest thing to it in today's NBA and the strategy of surrounding him with 4 shooters (at least part of the time) will work similarly.
 
#8
And Rudy Gay, too. When they are off the court, we'll need to run a different kind of offense; the pick and roll seems like the best option. But so far, I'd really urge Karl to try what has worked in the past for the Kings (post-up-oriented style), and then at least see that style fail or succeed, to see if its sustainable.

We won't need to adopt this new style if another style works for us. Ugly style or beautiful style, trendy or not trendy, we need to stick with what works.
Dude. The post up oriented style has not worked for us........ We've won how many games the last 5 years? Either everyone on our roster sucks, or maybe going to the post like 90% of our possessions doesn't work.

It does matter what the trend is.. You have to keep up with what's current.
 
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#9
Dude. The post up oriented style has not worked for us........ We've won how many games the last 5 years? Either everyone on our roster sucks, or maybe going to the post like 90% of our possessions doesn't work.
I'll rest my hopes on the hot start we had this year before changing styles, but not what happened before that. That worked, and I don't see a reason for us not to try it again and see whether or not it was luck or it was legit.

It does matter what the trend is.. You have to keep up with what's current.
Keeping up with whats current may or may not get us wins, but trying the style that has gotten us wins in the beginning of the season that we stopped for no reason will more likely get us wins. I can admire different styles on different teams, but the front office needs to learn to not fix whats not broke.
 
#10
I don't think that's what Lowe was getting at in his article at all. I think he was explaining why postups have decreased while also positing that they could (and maybe should) make a comeback. And that having both guards and bigs that can post up is valuable.



As Draymond Green said in the article, the Warriors stymied Boogie by waiting until he started to make his move to double because otherwise he'd carve them up with his passing. To me the answer there isn't to say we should stop posting Cousins up because other teams will shut him down in the same way. To me the answer is for Cousins to learn to not have tunnel vision when he makes his move in the post AND for the Kings to have better shooters to make opponents pay more consistently.

I actually don't think Cousin's offensive game has evolved all that much. Yes, he's absolutely gotten better in a LOT of ways/areas but his jump shooting and finesse takes to the hoop were there from his first summer league game. If anything I think it's that Calipari limited Boogie's game at Kentucky much more than it evolved in the NBA.

And even as the NBA gets more and more perimeter oriented the reality is that you always need a guy who can either get an easy score at the basket or draw the defense to stopping him from getting that basket so he can kick it out to shooters. You can do that by attacking off the dribble or with a post up. And its often important to have both.

The Rockets championship teams with Olajuwon would fit right in to today's NBA. And while Boogie isn't as unguardable in the post as The Dream, he's the closest thing to it in today's NBA and the strategy of surrounding him with 4 shooters (at least part of the time) will work similarly.
PDA's entire thing about pace was interpreted that he wanted players to hustle to the offensive end and try to get an easy 1v1 basket for Cousins. If it didn't work or if there was a double team, pass it out for a wide open 3 or just continue the ball movement to find a shooter. It is related to parts of Lowe's piece and just the fact that the league has become so fast.

The Kings have inconsistent shooters which is a huge problem. Both Rudy and Collison struggle with catch and shooting from the eye. Gay is not really a catch and shoot player. Collison hesitated on almost 3/4 of his 3s. Unless he has his feet set, he won't take the 3pt shot even with 0 defenders around him. So I do think adding shooters to the team will make us better.. But the question is how do you do that?

Do you trade McLemore or drop him from the starting lineup for a vet SG? Do you replace Collison for a better shooter? Do you move forward with Rudy Gay? Do you find a stretch 4?

Not to mention if we draft someone like WCS or add a player like Jordan, our floor spacing is screwed.

There are so many ways that the Kings can go about adding shooters, but it won't be easy. Theoretically, you can have an offense built around Cousins if you have shooters at positions 1-3. Ex: Brandon Knight-Wesley Matthews-Chandler Parsons.

Cousins changed his offensive game. I think he developed the skills over time.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#11
Karl has been a really good coach in the NBA, but I said from the beginning, before we hired him, that he was a shaky fit for Cuz. Everything depended on him bucking the can't teach old dogs new tricks thing, putting aside his ego (never been done in his case) and showing the ability to adapt.

The thing is, that this article, from Zach Lowe of all people who has made himself a complete tool about Boogie, is not at all bad for Boogie. For many post guys, yes. But there is a lot of solid analysis in the article, and analysis in particular that displays why Boogie is able to still thrive.

I've said repeatedly over the years that the great value of post scoring is not only post scoring itself, but in the way it collapses the defense and gets guys open.

From the article:
Multiple front-office gurus have whispered that post passing might become the NBA’s next great undervalued skill, even as the league appears to veer away from post-ups. “The thing I am sold on completely,” Karl says, “is that today, you need as much passing on the court as possible.” If Tom Thibodeau–style defenses can strangle one side of the floor, offenses have to swing the ball until they find something good.

Posting up may never again be an efficient direct path to buckets — at least for everyone outside the rare truly gifted post scorers. But as an indirect draw-and-kick strategy, it can be as deadly as anything else.
I've also repeatedly made the point that driving and post scoring are two ways to attempt to attain the same Basketball 101 goal -- draw the defense to you with the threat of a hoop at the rim, and then kick the ball to the guys who are open because of it. Post play was just the old school way of doing it, and then as ballhandling improved and the Jordan class of wings appeared, you began to be able to achieve similar defense collapsing results with slashing wing players. In essence what you saw in the Atlanta series was LeBron "posting" the hell out of the Hawks and just pummeling them with it. Because really that was the basic effect of him just squaring Hawks up and powering right in to the rim time and again. Get the ball inside and score if you can, if you can't, kick.

So here are relevant Boogie things: 1) he might be the best driving/ballhandling center of all time. 2) he has excellent passing skills. You put them together and no matter how the overall post trend winds blow Boogie himself never goes out of style. He's a defense bender with all the skills needed to continue playing that role in the modern NBA.

The article gets around to drawing further lines, and noticing, belatedly, that small ball tries to take advantage of offensively incompetent bigs. That was the old Don Nelson trick. The inverse of what the Warriors did to Tony Allen.
There’s a flip side to this that also bodes well for a post-up comeback: Coaches are getting smarter about exploiting bigs who can’t post up, especially in the playoffs. More coaches go small and send an extra shooter onto the floor, the second they see an opposing big who can’t hurt smaller defenders on the block
And again, Boogie is immune to that obviously. Smallball tactics are only dangerous if you can't punish them with your own offense. Article also points out BTW that that is what has happened to the "stretch 4" revolution that never was. Teams took a look at the Matt Bullards running around, and said well if you are going to throw that out there, we're just going to throw out another guard who can stick with your slow footed 3pt shooter on one end, and blow by him on the other.

Basically post play is the counter to smallball tactics. If you don't have it, and you are a specialist, you are vulnerable.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#13
Dude. The post up oriented style has not worked for us........ We've won how many games the last 5 years? Either everyone on our roster sucks, or maybe going to the post like 90% of our possessions doesn't work.

It does matter what the trend is.. You have to keep up with what's current.
Paul Westphal did not run a post oriented offense. Keith Smart did not run a post oriented offense. Mike Malone did to an extent but more than anything he ran a very simple iso heavy offense and was focused on the defensive end far more than on offense.

And giving the ball to Cousins in the post is NOT why the Kings have been terrible his entire tenure. A lack of talent, poor coaching, no continuity, bad management, Maloofery and the current regime's inexplicable decisions are why the Kings have been terrible.

The NBA and especially the NFL are copycat leagues. That's definitely true. But you don't keep up with the joneses just for the sake of doing so. The Kings can decide to emulate the Warriors but how far is that going to get them considering the Warriors ARE the Warriors and will always win at that game. The key of course is to take elements of what works from other teams but use your own advantages to the most.

The big takeaway from Lowe's article (to me anyway) is that there's is a dearth of post up players who are also good playmakers and those guys are increasingly valuable. Well the Kings have the biggest and the baddest one among them so why on Earth would we go away from that to chase another team's style?

Because that's the thing about trends. When everybody else starts going in one direction, there is value in going against the grain. When more and more teams in the NFL went to 3-4 defenses it meant that smaller athletic defensive ends could be had easier. The kind that helped the Saints be an aggressive, attacking defense. When teams start playing more and more small ball in the NBA there's value in being the bully that can punish them down low.


PDA's entire thing about pace was interpreted that he wanted players to hustle to the offensive end and try to get an easy 1v1 basket for Cousins. If it didn't work or if there was a double team, pass it out for a wide open 3 or just continue the ball movement to find a shooter. It is related to parts of Lowe's piece and just the fact that the league has become so fast.
Here's the interesting thing though. The league hasn't gotten faster. Oh sure, pace is up slightly from the mid to late 90's before the hand checking rules were introduced and illegal defense calls overhauled but last season the leaguewide average pace was 93.9 possessions per 48 minutes. But throughout the 80's that number was above 100 almost every year. And even into the early 9o's it topped 95 every season until 94-95 when it dipped to 92.9. Outside of the lockout season when the rust obviously led to poorer leaguewide shooting and offense in general, it's never gone below 90.

In 20 years, from the end of the center heydey to today's game teams are only averaging half a possession more per game. The game has changed for sure, but it hasn't gotten faster.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#14
I read this article yesterday. Really interesting comments from Karl. I know some including myself have been a little bit skeptical of Karl and Cuz due to Karl's offensive style, and this article continues to add some fear that Cuz and Karl may not be a match made in heaven. I'm still giving Karl the benefit of the doubt for now, but it kind of seems like maybe he shouldn't have commented in this article and kept those thoughts private? I don't know, maybe everyone else found the comments harmless, but i feel it kind leads you to believe Karl may move away from a post heavy offense, despite having arguably the best post up player in the league right now. We shall see...
Funny, I didn't take it that way at all. I thought Karl was being honest about the league, but a lot of the things he talked about also fit what Cousins is good at. Basically, what I got out of it, at least as far as Karl is concerned, is that he likes players that are well rounded, and not one dimensional. For instance when he referred to Kyle Korver, he sort of implied that he was a one trick pony, and if you take the trick away, which the Cav's did in that series, he's not much good. He likes players that can spread the floor with their shooting, but he also wants players that can put the ball on the floor, and then make decisions on the fly. Cousins can do that. He's not just a bash your way to the basket player. It was also implied in the article, that you can use the post up player as a way to break down the other teams defense. Not many teams do it, because they don't have centers or PF's that can post up effectively, and a lot of those that can, aren't good passers. They referenced Jefferson as falling into the category.
 
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#15
There’s a flip side to this that also bodes well for a post-up comeback: Coaches are getting smarter about exploiting bigs who can’t post up, especially in the playoffs. More coaches go small and send an extra shooter onto the floor, the second they see an opposing big who can’t hurt smaller defenders on the block
I think this quote is very interesting, and why I think it makes Cauley-Stein even more valuable.

If opposing teams want to put a smaller player out on the floor to guard Cauley-Stein, it really is not going to affect us. Cauley-Stein's not going to be able to take his man one on one (other than putbacks or alley-oops over his shorter defender), but on the other end, Cauley-Stein can still shut down these smaller, quicker wings with his elite athleticism. So basically, you still have the height advantage, rebounding advantage, and shotblocking advantage while the other team, at the most, has another shooter on the floor who can't blow by Cauley-Stein and penetrate the lane. And considering his elite athleticism, great length, superb jumps, and excellent shotblocking abilities, I think that extra shooter is going to have a tough time finding the room to get his shot off.

I think people are underestimating how valuable Cauley-Stein's ability to guard multiple positions really is.
 
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kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#16
The more coaches and front office's change their vision on what it takes to win, the more complex it becomes for a franchise to get out of futility and remain in the lottery. Establish an identity, surround your best players with complimentary pieces that fit their game to the best of their ability. Next, retain a consistent core throughout the years to build chemistry and understand what a coach wants out of his players. I feel we are over thinking on what we need to do...do we need to play like the Warriors? do we need to play like the Spurs? do we need to play like the Grizzlies? etc etc. If you are consistent with your line of thinking and remain on a steady track of consistency without meddling too much...well maybe someday somehow we can have some success again.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#17
Karl has been a really good coach in the NBA, but I said from the beginning, before we hired him, that he was a shaky fit for Cuz. Everything depended on him bucking the can't teach old dogs new tricks thing, putting aside his ego (never been done in his case) and showing the ability to adapt.

The thing is, that this article, from Zach Lowe of all people who has made himself a complete tool about Boogie, is not at all bad for Boogie. For many post guys, yes. But there is a lot of solid analysis in the article, and analysis in particular that displays why Boogie is able to still thrive.

I've said repeatedly over the years that the great value of post scoring is not only post scoring itself, but in the way it collapses the defense and gets guys open.

From the article:


I've also repeatedly made the point that driving and post scoring are two ways to attempt to attain the same Basketball 101 goal -- draw the defense to you with the threat of a hoop at the rim, and then kick the ball to the guys who are open because of it. Post play was just the old school way of doing it, and then as ballhandling improved and the Jordan class of wings appeared, you began to be able to achieve similar defense collapsing results with slashing wing players. In essence what you saw in the Atlanta series was LeBron "posting" the hell out of the Hawks and just pummeling them with it. Because really that was the basic effect of him just squaring Hawks up and powering right in to the rim time and again. Get the ball inside and score if you can, if you can't, kick.

So here are relevant Boogie things: 1) he might be the best driving/ballhandling center of all time. 2) he has excellent passing skills. You put them together and no matter how the overall post trend winds blow Boogie himself never goes out of style. He's a defense bender with all the skills needed to continue playing that role in the modern NBA.

The article gets around to drawing further lines, and noticing, belatedly, that small ball tries to take advantage of offensively incompetent bigs. That was the old Don Nelson trick. The inverse of what the Warriors did to Tony Allen.

And again, Boogie is immune to that obviously. Smallball tactics are only dangerous if you can't punish them with your own offense. Article also points out BTW that that is what has happened to the "stretch 4" revolution that never was. Teams took a look at the Matt Bullards running around, and said well if you are going to throw that out there, we're just going to throw out another guard who can stick with your slow footed 3pt shooter on one end, and blow by him on the other.

Basically post play is the counter to smallball tactics. If you don't have it, and you are a specialist, you are vulnerable.
I think your spot on with your interpretation of the article. I think Karl knows what he has with Cousins, and will figure out ways to use his strengths. Karl's offense is focused on ball movement, getting the defense to react, and then taking advantage of their mistakes. I went and took a look at Cousins last ten games under Karl before he shut him down, and found the results encouraging. First his season averages for comparison.

Season Avg: 24.1 ppg - 12.7 rpg - 3.6 apg - 1.7 blk's pg

Last ten: 27.9 ppg - 15.1 rpg - 5.1 apg - 2.3 blk's pg

His assist numbers went up, without hurting his scoring or rebounding. He had two triple double games back to back, and in the second one, he made it look easy. It's highly possible that Cousins will thrive in Karl's system, with a lot of the offense going through him. So far I'm optimistic.
 
#18
I don't think Karl is opposed to post play. I think he is opposed to strictly just post play. Memphis is strictly a post play team, because their entire roster can't shoot a lick, and as far as it got them, it eventually did them in. There is a limit, and in that essence I agree with Karl that strictly post play will likely not lead you to the promised land. Luckily for us, our beast is not limited to strict post play, but we can't utilize his strengths to the fullest because the rest of the roster isn't geared towards him (no shooters etc.). As Bajaden pointed out, Cousins played lights out for Karl down the stretch. I am not worried about Karl-Cousins (I refuse to speculate on these comments and trying to associate them with Boogie - Karl knows what he has and it happens to be a beast). What Cousins, and in essence the Kings, need are shooters and defenders. WCS would solve a significant portion of the defensive issues, and a vet SG would solve another big issue. The bench should be completely restructured with JT first big off the bench and 3&D players everywhere else, along with 1 playmaking guard (Andre Miller?) to lead the bench.

I am optimistic at this point for next season. I think if we draft WCS, we will see a huge change on the defensive side (especially if WCS starts and in my mind he should). Hopefully with a few free agent signings/trades, we can find a vet SG to hold the fort until 1 of Ben/Nik comes along and fix the bench (to an extent at least).
 
#19
I think your spot on with your interpretation of the article. I think Karl knows what he has with Cousins, and will figure out ways to use his strengths. Karl's offense is focused on ball movement, getting the defense to react, and then taking advantage of their mistakes. I went and took a look at Cousins last ten games under Karl before he shut him down, and found the results encouraging. First his season averages for comparison.

Season Avg: 24.1 ppg - 12.7 rpg - 3.6 apg - 1.7 blk's pg

Last ten: 27.9 ppg - 15.1 rpg - 5.1 apg - 2.3 blk's pg

His assist numbers went up, without hurting his scoring or rebounding. He had two triple double games back to back, and in the second one, he made it look easy. It's highly possible that Cousins will thrive in Karl's system, with a lot of the offense going through him. So far I'm optimistic.
That is just nuts. 28-15-5-2.3?? It's like it is from a video game. He's not even in his prime!
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#20
I think your spot on with your interpretation of the article. I think Karl knows what he has with Cousins, and will figure out ways to use his strengths. Karl's offense is focused on ball movement, getting the defense to react, and then taking advantage of their mistakes. I went and took a look at Cousins last ten games under Karl before he shut him down, and found the results encouraging. First his season averages for comparison.

Season Avg: 24.1 ppg - 12.7 rpg - 3.6 apg - 1.7 blk's pg

Last ten: 27.9 ppg - 15.1 rpg - 5.1 apg - 2.3 blk's pg

His assist numbers went up, without hurting his scoring or rebounding. He had two triple double games back to back, and in the second one, he made it look easy. It's highly possible that Cousins will thrive in Karl's system, with a lot of the offense going through him. So far I'm optimistic.
I'm with you on the optimism front, Baja! How can you not be optimistic when Cuz was dropping a freakish 28/15/5/2?! Those numbers are disgusting!

Karl has never had a big like Cuz, but I think he'll figure it out. His "nobody is untradable" quote fueled the trade rumors, but I dont think Karl wants to trade Boogie either. He was just running his mouth, which is one of the bad habits that he is known for.

Its like, if you have been driving a Honda with an automatic transmission for twenty years, and somebody gives you a Ferrari that happens to be manual, do you say "thanks, but no thanks, I can only drive automatic."? Heck no! You learn to drive stick and burn some rubber!
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#21
Dude. The post up oriented style has not worked for us........ We've won how many games the last 5 years? Either everyone on our roster sucks, or maybe going to the post like 90% of our possessions doesn't work.

It does matter what the trend is.. You have to keep up with what's current.
That's not due to posts up not working though, that's due to a lack of balance and shooting threats year after year on our roster.

As this article pointed out and as a few here have repeatedly pointed out, one of the most crucial elements of success in this league is the ability for one player to attract two or more defenders, essentially making it 4v3 elsewhere. There's your advantage. That's where quickly passing to the open shooter kills defenses. Karl is right, without that a guy like Korver doesn't get open in the playoffs.

But to do that you need a couple things. First and foremost, a guy who forces defenses to bend towards him. In the modern NBA where there's few post threats, it's come more through ball dominant and attacking guards. Modern perimeter rules also necessitate that. That's why a guy like Reke was and is valuable, he can penetrate and draw defenders. But the other way to do that is by posting up with a dominant big. That there's so few of them doesn't mean it won't or can't work, it just means it's rare. But Cuz on the block draw multiple defenders has the same effect as an attacking guard penetrating and draw defenders. It forces the defense to help and your passing in a 4v3 situation has to beat their rotations. If the idea is Cuz, or previous guys like Shaq or Hakeem or Ewing or Moses couldn't succeed in the modern NBA, I'd say that's a patently false premise. We just don't have guys like that in the modern NBA.

The other thing you need is shooters to both create spacing and to prevent defenders from sagging off/doubling in the first place. When that happens, its far easier for a dominant post threat to attack 1v1. If and when they do double, it's much easier to get open 3's. Whether it was Vlade/Webb here, KG in Boston, Duncan over the years in SA, Shaq in Orl/LA, there's a reason their FO's put shooters around them. Not having shooters and therefor a lack of spacing doesn't mean posting won't work, it's means you've done a terrible job of trying to make it work.

And this is one reason I continue saying the way in which to reach the highest ceiling with Cuz is to have a PG who can penetrate at will and collapse defenses. It's two threats who can do that, one inside, one outside. Surround them with shooters/defenders. Doesn't mean we ultimately couldn't be very good without that and instead surround Cuz with 3&D players, just that the ceiling would be that much higher. Hence my high intrigue in Mudiay. It's pretty hard to acquire a guard who can penetrate and get into the teeth of the defense. We blew it with Reke. We see what Reke penetrating does for Davis. It opens up numerous open shots, for Davis, for their shooters. If we have a chance to get another guard who can do similar, you have to seriously consider it.

Edit: And I see this is what I get for replying to you without reading everyone's responses first. Brick touched on much of the same. It's about collapsing defenses, point blank and there's two ways to do it, from the post, from a penetrating guard.

I'll add, most here want ball movement. Well good ball movement is a helluva lot easier when you first have a guy bending defenses. You've got to create a defensive inbalance and get them chasing. And as we all know, the ball moves faster than defenders. What Cuz does is what the most elite attacking PG's and SG's have done, just from a different area, he draws multiple defenders and can pass out. Extremely valuable.
 
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rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#22
His assist numbers went up, without hurting his scoring or rebounding. He had two triple double games back to back, and in the second one, he made it look easy. It's highly possible that Cousins will thrive in Karl's system, with a lot of the offense going through him. So far I'm optimistic.
I don't think Karl's system as it relates to Cuz is as much of an issue compared to not having the players to play in that system. When you up the tempo and are looking for more 3's, it looks a lot worse when you've got a number of poor ballhandlers and shooters all over the floor, as well as low IQ players who can't make the correct reads on the fly. When we have DWill and Ben on the wings with Ray's tunnel vision and driving into traffic, how do people think that'll work in Karl's system? Well we saw, and it wasn't pretty.

So when we compare the Karl era to the Malone era, Malone had a good amount of success this season because his system maximized our lack of talent. Karl didn't do much better with his system as the players for it aren't there. Adelman's system with our current roster wouldn't do well either as again, there's a real lack of talent.

That's why this summer is incredibly important. But Karl's system or not, we clearly need more skill, more shooters, more guys who can handle/pass. There can be a worry there about "fitting in" next to a dominant big like Cuz but that also relays to buying into the system and having a high basketball IQ, knowing when to attack, knowing when to swing it, knowing your role, knowing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd option, etc. In watching GS, a number of guys can shoot the 3 or attack off the bounce....but they pick their spots wisely. Harrison Barnes doesn't just go around forcing up garbage because he can.

If we have a skilled roster which ignores Cuz and doesn't play to his strengths, then that's a problem but I'll worry about that when and if that time comes.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#23
I don't think Karl's system as it relates to Cuz is as much of an issue compared to not having the players to play in that system. When you up the tempo and are looking for more 3's, it looks a lot worse when you've got a number of poor ballhandlers and shooters all over the floor, as well as low IQ players who can't make the correct reads on the fly. When we have DWill and Ben on the wings with Ray's tunnel vision and driving into traffic, how do people think that'll work in Karl's system? Well we saw, and it wasn't pretty.

So when we compare the Karl era to the Malone era, Malone had a good amount of success this season because his system maximized our lack of talent. Karl didn't do much better with his system as the players for it aren't there. Adelman's system with our current roster wouldn't do well either as again, there's a real lack of talent.

That's why this summer is incredibly important. But Karl's system or not, we clearly need more skill, more shooters, more guys who can handle/pass. There can be a worry there about "fitting in" next to a dominant big like Cuz but that also relays to buying into the system and having a high basketball IQ, knowing when to attack, knowing when to swing it, knowing your role, knowing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd option, etc. In watching GS, a number of guys can shoot the 3 or attack off the bounce....but they pick their spots wisely. Harrison Barnes doesn't just go around forcing up garbage because he can.

If we have a skilled roster which ignores Cuz and doesn't play to his strengths, then that's a problem but I'll worry about that when and if that time comes.
Don't disagree! That's why Williams shouldn't be on the team next season and probably won't. Karl said at seasons end, the team needs more shooters and ball handlers. I don't think he necessarily mean't guards. But regardless of position, when a defender is running a close out on you, he wants you to put it on the floor and create off the dribble. Korver can't do that. But I'm preaching to the choir. Your right, big summer coming up and hopefully some big changes.
 
#27
Maybe Vivek and PDA weren't so crazy when they were talking about pace..
Obviously, they are not and I believe them. It was already explained several times we weren't going away from utilizing our best asset in Cousins (who is best use posting up.) But somehow, the Vivek/PDA haters were able to farther their agenda of painting Vivek/PDA as stupids by making other posters in this board to believe Vivek/PDA were only for increasing pace.

Again, learning how to increase pace is just one way our team can increase the potential to score, involve more players, and win. Every Championship team had incorporated it one way or another in their system, to a certain level, and used on the opportuned time. Even our very own glorious team of the past lead by great post up players Webber and Divac had used it.

Increasing the pace is one way we can augment the already awesome offense brought about by having Cousins and Gay. It is a very creative way to avoid relying too much on Cousins alone at the post or the never-ending iso plays of Malone for Gay (and IT before.) The problem is Malone's only way had become obsolete and worse, had become very predictable and relatively easy to defend in today's NBA.

We need to learn how to increase the pace of the game if we want to be one of the elite teams in the NBA.
 
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#28
Obviously, they are not and I believe them. It was already explained several times we weren't going away from utilizing our best asset in Cousins (who is best use posting up. But somehow, the Vivek/PDA haters were able to farther their agenda of painting Vivek/PDA as stupids by making other posters in this board to believe Vivek/PDA were only for increasing pace.

Again, learning how to increase the pace is just one way our team can increase the potential to score, involve more players, and win. Every Championship team since the beginning incorporated it one way or another in their system, to a certain level, and on the opportuned time. Only loser teams under dumb coaches like Malone cannot recognize it. Increasing the pace is one way we can augment the already awesome offense brought about by having Cousins and Gay. It is a very creative way to avoid relying too much on Cousins alone at the post or the never-ending iso plays of Malone forGay (and IT before) which had become obsolete and very predictable in today's NBA.

We need to learn how to increase the pace of the game if we want to be one of the elite teams in the NBA.
We did increase the pace and got much worse when we did. We finished top 10 in pace.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#29
Obviously, they are not and I believe them. It was already explained several times we weren't going away from utilizing our best asset in Cousins (who is best use posting up.) But somehow, the Vivek/PDA haters were able to farther their agenda of painting Vivek/PDA as stupids by making other posters in this board to believe Vivek/PDA were only for increasing pace.

Again, learning how to increase pace is just one way our team can increase the potential to score, involve more players, and win. Every Championship team had incorporated it one way or another in their system, to a certain level, and used on the opportuned time. Only loser teams under dumb coaches like Malone cannot recognize and use it. Increasing the pace is one way we can augment the already awesome offense brought about by having Cousins and Gay. It is a very creative way to avoid relying too much on Cousins alone at the post or the never-ending iso plays of Malone forGay (and IT before) which had become obsolete and worse, had become very predictable and relatively easy to defend in today's NBA.

We need to learn how to increase the pace of the game if we want to be one of the elite teams in the NBA.
haha.

such silliness. Read this. Absorb it.

Pace has almost NOTHING to do with winning. NOTHING. It never has. This year "pace" has become a buzzword because the Warriros and Rockets both run up and down willy nilly given a chance, but who are the other pace teams? Here are the top 10 in Pace:

1) Warriors 67-15
2) Houston 56-26
3) Phoenix 39-43
4) Denver 30-52
5) Boston 40-42
6) Oklahoma City 45-37
7) Philadelphia 18-64
8) Sacramento 29-53
9) Dallas 50-32
10) Clippers 56-26

5 playoff teams. 5 non playoff teams. 5 winning teams, 5 losing teams. 3 power teams. 3 bottom 10 teams.

Let's look at the Bottom 10 in Pace:

21) Chicago 50-32
22) Toronto 49-33
23) Detroit 32-50
24) Brooklyn 38-44
25) Cleveland 53-29
26) Memphis 55-27
27) New Orleans 45-37
28) New York 17-65
29) Miami 37-45
30) Utah 38-44

6 playoff teams. 4 non playoff teams. 5 winning teams. 5 losing teams. 2-3 power teams. 1-2 bottom 10 teams.


Wow, I can really see the Pace trend there. In the finals the #1 Pace team will meet...the #25 Pace team.

Pace ranks of last 10 NBA champions:
2013-14: Spurs = 10th
2012-13: Heat = 23rd
2011-12: Heat = 15th
2010-11: Dallas = 17th
2009-10: Lakers = 14th
2008-09: Lakers = 5th
2007-08: Boston = 19th
2006-07: Spurs = 27th
2005-06: Heat = 11th
2004-05: Spurs = 23rd


Pace means NOTHING. NOTHING. You could hardly have hit upon a more irrelevant stat when it comes to winning basketball games, let alone ones that matter. There are probably how-many-times-did-the-3rd-dance-team-member-from-the-left-pick-her-nose-during-the-quarter-break stats that track just as well for winning basketball games. If the Warriors win they will be the first team ranked #1 in Pace to win a title probably since the 80s. An idiot, or a rodent, would say ooh! A trend. A non-idiot biped would say ooh! a singular team with a unique star.

PACE DOES NOT MATTER. It never did. Running a pace and system that maximizes your stars does matter. Regaardless of what that pace is.
 
#30
haha.

such silliness. Read this. Absorb it.

Pace has almost NOTHING to do with winning. NOTHING. It never has. This year "pace" has become a buzzword because the Warriros and Rockets both run up and down willy nilly given a chance, but who are the other pace teams? Here are the top 10 in Pace:

1) Warriors 67-15
2) Houston 56-26
3) Phoenix 39-43
4) Denver 30-52
5) Boston 40-42
6) Oklahoma City 45-37
7) Philadelphia 18-64
8) Sacramento 29-53
9) Dallas 50-32
10) Clippers 56-26

5 playoff teams. 5 non playoff teams. 5 winning teams, 5 losing teams. 3 power teams. 3 bottom 10 teams.

Let's look at the Bottom 10 in Pace:

21) Chicago 50-32
22) Toronto 49-33
23) Detroit 32-50
24) Brooklyn 38-44
25) Cleveland 53-29
26) Memphis 55-27
27) New Orleans 45-37
28) New York 17-65
29) Miami 37-45
30) Utah 38-44

6 playoff teams. 4 non playoff teams. 5 winning teams. 5 losing teams. 2-3 power teams. 1-2 bottom 10 teams.


Wow, I can really see the Pace trend there. In the finals the #1 Pace team will meet...the #25 Pace team.

Pace ranks of last 10 NBA champions:
2013-14: Spurs = 10th
2012-13: Heat = 23rd
2011-12: Heat = 15th
2010-11: Dallas = 17th
2009-10: Lakers = 14th
2008-09: Lakers = 5th
2007-08: Boston = 19th
2006-07: Spurs = 27th
2005-06: Heat = 11th
2004-05: Spurs = 23rd


Pace means NOTHING. NOTHING. You could hardly have hit upon a more irrelevant stat when it comes to winning basketball games, let alone ones that matter. There are probably how-many-times-did-the-3rd-dance-team-member-from-the-left-pick-her-nose-during-the-quarter-break stats that track just as well for winning basketball games. If the Warriors win they will be the first team ranked #1 in Pace to win a title probably since the 80s. An idiot, or a rodent, would say ooh! A trend. A non-idiot biped would say ooh! a singular team with a unique star.

PACE DOES NOT MATTER. It never did. Running a pace and system that maximizes your stars does matter. Regaardless of what that pace is.
Whatever. Malone never wanted cousins and to prove it, check out the following:

"Whatever. Malone never wanted cousins."