Thoughts on the rotation

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by jcassio, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    The rotation:
    1: Fox/Hill/Temple
    2: Hield/Bogdanovic/Temple
    3: Jackson/Carter/Temple
    4: Labissiere/Cauley-Stein
    5: Cauley-Stein/Koufos/Papagiannis

    I know Fox and Jackson may not be the starters on day 1. But I expect them to be the starters by Christmas.

    Giles and Mason should get most of their PT in Reno, at least the first half of the season. Easy-goes-it with Giles. Please. So much upside, but I think his strength and conditioning will be more important than his playing time in year 1.

    I believe in Malachi's potential, but he's a question mark until he proves he's over the hammy and can play efficiently.

    Clearly our big weakness (beside relying on several rookies) is at PF. Skal didn't play well in the summer, but he's going to be our starting PF until he shows he's regressed. Hopefully that doesn't happen. Randolph had a great opportunity here, but now has legal problems and an uncertain future with the Kings. Papa played poorly this summer, which suggests that we still need Koufos (and can't trade him to shore up our big PF weakness).

    I know we've got Cooley and Sampson on those 2-way deals, but I think it's wishful thinking to even mention them in this discussion.

    Seems like Randolph is the big question mark as far as whether we have a big weakness or not. Believe me, I don't expect us to win many games this year, but I want us to be as competitive as we can be.
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  2. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    As long as the youth plays their fair share of minutes all is gravy, I put my belief in Joerger and that he will bring the rooks along accordingly. Not much of a believer in Papa or Malachi but I'd love to be proven wrong.
  3. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    It's fun to speculate. Amongst the young guys he ones that I think are the closest are Hield, Jackson, Fox, Bogdanovic and Mason. The others that could jell next would be Labisserie, Richardson. With so many needing to get experience and prove themselves it will be had to move them all along to make or break. That can be good and bad. Good because it will be slow and bad because some will not get the chance to develop as soon as they could. It will be interesting for me to follow.
  4. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    The Kings don't have to play any player big minutes. Hill, Carter and Randolph*should all be on short minutes to reduce the chance if injury. The young players can even play the bulk of the minutes with the vets starting but being subbed out at 5 or 6 minutes in the 1st quarter. I think the starting unit for game one will look like this:
    1) Hill
    2) Hield
    3) Carter
    4) Willie
    5) Koufos

    First off the bench for each position:

    1) Fox
    2) Bogdan
    3) Temple
    4) Jackson
    5) Skal

    I think the Coaches go small with the second unit trying to run the other team off the floor.

    Spot minutes for Malachi, Mason and Papa as needed. I think Sampson and Cooley are situational defensive players. Harry Giles will get brought along slowly IMO. As the young guys develop the Vets will step back. In some cases Vlade may trade the Vet if the young guys are ready and there is depth in that position.

    *I have no idea what the Authorities and the NBA does with Zach Randolph. If he is available he will play. I am rooting for him to come out of this a wiser man. Maybe he gets probation and a small suspension.
  5. OvechKiN

    OvechKiN Member

    Leave Giles and Papa in the G League all year IMO. I don't see Fox displacing Hill by Christmas. Fox is awesome, but Hill is a very legit starter, but perhaps lesser minutes to avoid injury.

    Vince can play minutes at the 4 in small ball line ups quite easily. Maybe Temple? I'm not sure. I'd like to get Malachi some minutes though. I'm sure injuries will happen unfortunately.
  6. OvechKiN

    OvechKiN Member

    Perhaps Malachi starts the first 10 games in the GLeague as well to test out his injury.
  7. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    I think to start the season, we are going to see a heavy vet presence. Joeger likes his vets and I think he will make the rooks and young players earn his trust and more minutes.

    To begin the season:

    PF: Randolph / Skal / Giles (rehab and G-League)
    SF: Temple / Jackson / Carter / Sampson (Call ups from G-League)
    C: WCS / KK / Papa (G-League)
    SG: Hield / Bogdan / Malichi (split with G- League)
    PG: Hill / Fox / Mason (Split with G-League)

    I think by Mid-January, the Rooks and Young kids will earn the trust and more minutes.

    The rotation by February will (hopefully) be:

    PF: Skal / Randolph / Giles (call ups from G-League)
    SF: Jackson / Temple / Carter / Sampson (call ups from G-League)
    C: WCS / KK / Papa (call ups from G-League)
    SG: Hield / Bogdan / Malichi (call ups from G-League)
    PG: Fox / Hill / Mason (call ups from G-League)

    I think this is the most promising scenario for our young Kings. Coach is not known to just hand out minutes, the players need to earn it. And if the line up transforms from vets heavy to young Kids heavy by the All-Star break, that would be ideal for this team going forward.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
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  8. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    I agree. Except that Z-Bo's role and contribution is a complete unknown at this point. He may not play a single min as a King. Or he may be a significant contributor (as a player and mentor) until Skal is ready for prime time.
    VF21 likes this.
  9. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    I think our starting rotation will be:

    Hill/Fox
    Hield/Bogdanovic
    Carter/Temple/Richardson-Jackson
    Randolph/Skal
    WCS/Koufos

    I don't think Mason sees any PT unless Hill or Fox is injured. I think SF position is difficult, but I see the Kings putting all our SGs at SFs since we don't have a real one. I think Richardson and Jackson will split the remaining guard/forward rotations, with GLeague time. Randolph might get the start due to veteran status. WCS over Koufos to add more athleticism to that old lineup.
    ppine likes this.
  10. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    If the new Kings FO have proved anything so far, it's that they don't care about off-court issues. Lawson DUIs are ok. Collison assaulting his wife is ok. Matt Barnes assaulting a person in a club is ok. I don't see where they don't find the exception for Randolph's arrest. FO clearly doesn't care about stuff like that. If they did, I don't think they'd bring in law abiding citizens like Lawson, Barnes, and Randolph.
  11. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I think it's possible that Bogdanovic beats out Hield at SG, and I think your seriously underselling Jackson. Your right about the SF position being the hardest to predict, but Jackson is the only pure SF on our roster. I just can't see him riding the bench. Especially with how he played in summer league.
  12. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Lawson is gone. Collison is gone. Barnes is gone. I think the current FO is making a statement, albeit perhaps a subtle one. I strongly suspect Randolph (pending the outcome of the charges) may not be a King by the time the trade deadline rolls around.
    pshn80 likes this.
  13. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    With Hield and Bogdanovic, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw them play together. For the starting position, I think it'll be Buddy's to lose. Both players can play* without the ball, but I think they're better with the ball in their hands. However, I think Bogdanovic needs the ball more than Buddy does. I wonder if this would encourage for the coaches to pair Hill-Bogdanovic and Fox-Hield. This would allow Hill and Bogdanovic to comfortably share ball handling duties. Meanwhile, also allow Fox to be the #1 lead with Hield as the secondary ball handler. Can never have too much talent, but it does make for a lot of confusing rotations.
    In regards to Jackson, I am underselling him. Mostly because I don't think he can handle the physicality of NBA SFs yet. His frame is underdeveloped. 6'8 with only a 201lb frame. He's also on the less aggressive end. He avoids contact at all costs. He doesn't go up big defensive boards. He really has to improve his physical and mental(defensive) toughness. I think this is where GLeague time can benefit him. I'm really curious to see if he can bulk up in the NBA. His frame concerns me a lot. Only added 12lbs in his entire UNC career. This is the same program that whipped Kennedy Meeks into serious shape.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
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  14. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Do you realize how long it's been since we've been able to have a substantive argument like this over players that are actually worth discussing? Such a nice change. :)
  15. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Well-Known Member

    The Hill signing really opened up a can of worms with backcourt rotations. You kinda have to start him Day 1 over Fox, but there are questions about how Hill-Hield and Fox-Bogdanovic fit together, especially the latter. I agree that it's Hield's spot to lose; they are clearly going for him as the future at SG and I don't think Bogdanovic changes that. I'm almost inclined to slot Richardson next to Fox as the backup 2 and use Bogdanovic as the swiss army knife 1-2-3 a la Garrett Temple last year (although more offensively oriented as opposed to Temple's defensive)

    It also reminds me of the big man rotation. I'm more inclined to give the future the starting spots and minutes now instead of worrying about fit this year. Skal and WCS together can eventually be absolute terrors with their length and athleticism, but right now they're going to be pushed around. Zbo can stymie that, but I'm not in favor of starting him if he's even around. There's also the matter of Giles, who although I don't think will get many minutes this year; I don't envision a scenario 3-4 years down the line where WCS and Giles are both still on the team. Either Giles has washed out due to injury or what have you, or he has lived up to his potential, which I think makes WCS expendable.
  16. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    I would only add that if Skal, WCS, Papa and Giles all become great contributors, then, yeah, probably one will be expendable, and that could be WCS. But what makes you think he's the one with less upside in that group?
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  17. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    Well, I'm not about to compare Meeks and Jackson. But I disagree on Jackson shying away from contact. I agree that he doesn't or didn't deal well with contact, but mostly because he lacked the strength. No doubt that getting stronger is he key to his NBA career, but he wouldn't be the first overly thin player to be a good NBA player. In over 50 years of watching NBA basketball, I've lost track of how many young players who were thought to be to frail or weak to play in the NBA, who went on to have very successful careers. That opinion doesn't mean it's not a concern, Just that I don't put as much emphasis on it as others.

    Right now, Jackson is the only SF on the team that has the height and length for the position, so when we have to go up against another SF that's 6'8" or over, I can't see us trying to guard that player with a 6'6" player. Well, I can see it, but I don't think it will be very successful. That said, I'm not sure anyone, except maybe Willie could guard the Greek Freak, or Durant etc, if indeed anyone can. My point is, if indeed the season is about growth, then I think you have to give the only legitimate SF on the team some minutes, and I think it will happen. Of course, although I'm never wrong, I could be!!!:rolleyes:

    Edit: I got to thinking, and if Patrick McCaw, who I had serious doubts about because of his lack of strength, can play SF for the Warriors in the playoffs, and actually play important minutes, then it might be possible for Jackson to play some minutes for the Kings. McCaw is 6'7" and weighs about 180 lb's while Jackson is 6'8" and weighs around 210 lb's.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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  18. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I believe that Willie is a center that can play some PF and I believe that Giles is a PF that in time, will be able to steal some minutes at Center. But I seriously doubt that either's career will affect the others. I think Willie's job is solid unless an angel from god visits Papagiannis during the night and preforms a miracle transforming him into an entirely different player. We only have two true centers on the team that are ready to play in the NBA and that's Koufos and Willie. Anyone else is a pretender or a temp.
  19. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Well-Known Member

    I know Giles is a PF, but the scenario I'm envisioning is one where Giles (and Skal) reaches his ceiling. At that point, WCS becomes expendable in my mind because I pick Skal over him every day of the week as the other big man starter in that scenario regardless of what position they actually are.

    I didn't say Papagiannis becomes expendable because I can't really envision a scenario where he ever becomes good enough to be a starter or make enough money. If both come close to their ceiling, Skal and Giles should be the future bigs, but WCS will probably be too good and make too much money to ride the bench behind them should that happen and it's at that point when you can trade WCS for something decent.

    It's a good problem to have mind you.
  20. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    I guess where I'm confused is why it's an either/or situation. Both Skal and Giles are PF's. So I don't see how either of them becoming good players affects Willie, who plays a different position. If anything, I see Skal and Giles battling for the starting role if Giles can regain his health. And that's a good thing. Whoever loses that battle would be the backup. I agree with James Ham that it would be a good idea to just split minutes where it's a feasible idea, and then adjust the minutes according to how their playing.

    In other words, give Hill 24 minutes and give Fox 24 minutes and see how that goes. Same thing with Willie and Koufos, and Randolph and Skal. The other two positions are going to be tough, but if you wanted you could split the minutes at SG between Hield and Bogdanovic, and then see who emerges's at the SF position between Malachi, Temple, and Jackson. Like Ham, I think Carter will get the fewest minutes of the regulars, and be used mainly as a bandaid where ever he's needed. He can probably average between 10 and 15 minutes a game that way. Big Papa, Giles, and Mason should start the season in Reno.

    If one player starts to emerge as the winner, then start increasing his minutes a little at a time. Randolph probably shouldn't play more than 15 to 20 minutes a game once a solid rotation is chose. Hill is likely to be injured at some point, and he'll probably get rested from time to time in an effort to keep him healthy. Carter is going to be 41 years old. Enough said! I agree with Ham that Joerger is going to have to coach his butt off this season. Should be fun though.
  21. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    PF and C = 48 + 48 = min/game (or 96 min total)
    96 / 3 players = 32 min per game
    If 32 min doesn't sound like enough min for 3 big-time contributors, then add additional min due to overtime and injuries. There's no reason we can't find enough min for 3 players covering two positions if they're all contributing.
    Now, if we're lucky enough to have 4 players contributing (to two positions), then I agree that one is very expendable and they should be viewed as an asset that can strengthen one of our other positions, or bring in a prospect for the future.
  22. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    I think you guys are a little bullish on Fox starting halfway through the year. It's going to be tough for a rookie to unseat a guy who has been the starting PG on multiple contending teams.

    I'm curious to see what happens with Temple. I think Jackson is NBA ready. Not ready to come out ahead or break even with the best PF's in the world but he's ready to get meaningful minutes in the NBA. I have a feeling Carter starts and Bogdan will get his minutes between SG and SF so where does that leave Temple, Jackson and Malachi? It'll be interesting to see who goes to the G League, who ride the bench and who gets minutes in the big leagues. Temple will more than likely be the better player but is it best for the future to play him 20 a night with guys like Jackson waiting in the wings? Guess we will find out.
    King Baller likes this.
  23. LPKingsFan

    LPKingsFan Well-Known Member

    I don't know about the rotation, but given Joerger's penchant for vets, here's how I'd guess he sees the "depth chart" as it were. Last year's minutes per game average as a reference point in parens:

    KK (20), WCS (19), Papa G (16)*
    Z-Bo (24.5), Skal (18.5), Giles (N/A)*
    Temple (27), Carter (24.6), Jackson (N/A)
    Buddy (29), BB8 (N/A), Mali (9)
    Hill (31.5), Fox (N/A), Mason (N/A)*

    *likely in Reno.

    A few thoughts:
    - Will Joerger mix and match the vets and kids? WCS should likely start over KK, but I like Fox playing with WCS and Skal in a fast lineup. I doubt Fox starts off the bat.
    - Is Z-Bo suspended; if so, for how long?
    - How ready is BB8? I like him next to Hill more than Fox, since Hill can play off ball and BB8 has more playmaking ability than Buddy. Is he in front of Mali, too?
    - Speaking of Richardson, can he swing to SF some? He started at SF this summer before getting hurt, from what I recall.
    - Speaking of SF, how many minutes can Jackson handle?
    - Carter averaged nearly 25 MPG last season, but a little over 16 the two seasons before. I'd guess he's closer to 16 than 24 this season.
    - Does Temple play as much, given there are other veteran mentors on board as well? His 26 MPG last season was a career high (18 MPG career average, 24 MPG in 15-16).

    With that in mind, I'd guess the minutes (to START the season) as follows:

    C: KK (20), WCS (24), + some minutes at C for Z-Bo or Skal in small lineup, Papa to Reno to start the year
    PF: Z-Bo (24), Skal (24) - some of these at C, with a SF shifting up to PF; Giles "redshirting" in Reno
    SF: Temple (24), Carter (12) + 12 minutes to some combo of Jackson or one of the SGs in a small lineup, and Jackson or Carter playing smallball PF some
    SG: Buddy (30), BB (18) with BB getting some additional time at SF, and perhaps Hill shifting to SG some
    PG: Hill (28), Fox (20), if you can find Hill some SG minutes maybe Fox gets up to 24-ish, certainly more as the season goes on; Mason to Reno barring injury
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
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  24. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    I think minutes will be fluid on a game to game basis with it depending on matchups, opposition willingness to go small which would be ideal for Sac, and then probably more importantly, how are the young guys playing which could earn them more minutes in a game.

    I could definitely see games where Zbo or Carter are rested meaning it opens up a full game for minutes amongst the other players. If Zbo or Carter play, I think Zbo gets 24-28. If Carter plays, I think he gets around 20-24. If Carter is inactive, then we see Jckson activated or other guy.

    I don't think we see Hield getting an automatic 30 minutes with Bogdanovich or Temple around. He's going to have to earn it in games by playing well......same goes for BB8.
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  25. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Good analysis. My guess at Joerger's depth chart at SF to start with is Jackson (20), Carter (10), Temple (12), the rest (Richardson, Bogdanovic) (6). My reasoning is that, yes, Joerger will start and play vets, certainly Hill and Zbo and maybe KK, but he will want mix it and get his promising and only SF minutes and premium playing time right away. This view depends on Jackson keeping up the good work in pre-season. In any event I will be watching with great interest.
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  26. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    From everything I've read and heard, and James Ham also alluded to it, is that the Kings are extremely high on Bog's. I doubt that Hield plays more minutes than him. Especially with the money they paid him. All speculation of course. I'm not rooting against Hield. If he can win the starting job, more power to him. But I wouldn't count on it.
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  27. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    My starting lineup:

    C: Willie Cauley-Stein
    PF: Zach Randolph
    SF: Garret Temple
    SG: Bogdan Bogdanovic
    PG:George Hill

    First off the bench:

    C. Kosta Koufos
    PF: Skal Labrissiere
    SF: Justin Jackson
    SG: Buddy Hield
    PG: De'Aaron Fox

    I think the minutes will depend on how each player is playing, and the individual matchups on any given night. For instance, if Skal is lighting it up, you might ride with him for more minutes giving him 30 or 34 minutes in that particular game. On the other hand, if he's struggling for what ever reason, you go more with Randolph. Of course there will be times when we go small and quick, and you might actually see all 210 lbs of Jackson playing PF.

    Don't think that will happen much, but you have to admit it would be fun to see a lineup of Willie, Jackson, Bog's, Buddy and Fox running up and down the floor. Embrace the future folks. :eek:
  28. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Interesting alternatives. College experience winners: Mason, Hield and Jackson. Winning combo?

    Kentucky conspiracy: Fox, Skal and Willie.

    Born on foreign soil, a cabal: Bogdanovic, Hield, Skal and Papa. Opponents beware!

    Lots of ways to win.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
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  29. jcwkings

    jcwkings Well-Known Member

    Starters:
    Hill
    Bogdanovic
    Temple
    Skal
    Willie

    Bench:
    Fox
    Hield
    Jackson/Carter
    ZBO
    Koufos

    Deep Bench/Some Reno:
    Malachi
    Mason

    Reno:
    Papa
    Giles

    I put Bogdanovic to start but the more impressive of he and Hield should start.
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  30. DesertFox

    DesertFox Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I think coach will find a way to get regular pt for Carter, even at the expense of Jackson.

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