The direction of the Carter/Randolph signings

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by Kingsfan23, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    The Kings IMHO did some quality, good things this summer. The draft was solid. Fox looks solid at 5, same with Jackson and hopefully Giles can get back to being a dominant paint presence. Hill is an underrated player still in his prime who many felt had as much to do with Utah's turnaround last season nearly as Hayward/Gobert. Financially getting minimal guarantee on that third year was strong. They brought Bogdan over, which was solid as the threat still loomed he would stay in Europe. They also signed a couple of solid two way contracts as well.

    The Randolph/Carter signings, which took up a large portion of the cap was, IMHO, a little bit more controversial. As a fan, my expectations of how to spend the teams resources is a little bit more valuative then looking for mentorship. As in business, I'd like the biggest asset return on investment. While I know many disagree with that stance. Thus I expected the team to maybe either get compensation for contracts ,or, if they thought the team was still too young although we've yet to field a definitive core, sign players that are still reasonably in their primes so they would have marketable value. Signing players in their late 30s and early 40s doesn't necessarily equate to them being useful on the floor as soon as next year, although we hope they are

    Practically speaking, I feel as if the money tied up to those two players could've been used in another manner this summer and next. For instance, it can be argued that Carroll will have better on court impact than a turning 41 Carter, with compensation. Next summer 12 mil (I believe) will be tied to a 37 Randolph when the market for compensation for bad contracts will be greater

    But, in any event, the bottom line is that I don't necessarily agree with the philosophy of using resources of a lottery team for teaching from vets on last legs. I don't see it widely employed by other lottery teams. There are other avenues to bring in vets on more minimal salaries or additional coaching if necessary for mentorship I would think. I'm also a little dubious that WCS/Skal will necessarily change in their makeups for being around a tough nosed Randolph, if he chooses to mentor them extensively. But I hope that would be the case.

    How do you feel about the signings and did they meet your expectations? Is there other logistical reasons for the signings that aren't as readily apparent?
  2. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    They both seem like Joeger guys brought in to work within his system while also providing mentorship and possibly move into assistant coaching roles, who can compete for minutes but probably not eat up 30 a night either.

    And maybe that was the best we could do with 1-2 year deals. Other players may have been hoping for more.

    I'm ok with this.
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  3. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    are we really still talking about not taking that albatross contract with a late first round draft pick attached courtesy of Toronto? Good on the Kings for not making a move to simply acquire a first rounder. Unless a team is willing to give the Kings a top 15 pick with no or minimal protection, then I'd consider bringing in a big contract. Other than that? Stay the course and have these rooks learn from some of these vets because we all know they won't be here for too long. I enjoyed the offseason, I didn't care much for offering Otto Porter a max contract so I can say I'm glad he decided Brooklyn.
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  4. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    These 2 signings are bad ass. The young guys during Summer League hung on Vince Carter's every word while he was there. Somehow I just can't see that happening with a guy like Demarre Carroll. If Skal and WCS can't learn anything from Zbo, then maybe these aren't the guys long term.

    Carter and Zbo are 2 short term signings and will leave their imprint here in that time. Bad ass signings.
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  5. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Well-Known Member

    At the price they paid, I don't like those signings. Going for Vets is a win-now move, no matter how you slice it, and the Kings are not at that stage of the game.. They should've been in full 'asset acquisition mode'...

    Why 2 years for Zach Randolph? Why?!?!

    Now, there was no Harrison Barnes to be had, but these moves remind me of Utah paying Joe Johnson and Boris Diaw about $20MM last summer instead of going after Harrison Barnes, who would've been way better last year than those 2, he'd have gotten tons of starts with their injury riddled season, and of course moving forward,he'd have covered their ass for Hayward walking.................. I hope there isn't an overlooked move like which was available that comes back to look like a no-brainer in just a few months time..


    You pay players to play not to mentor IMO, thats what the rest of the staff gets paid for... Even thru the lens of being mentors, those 2 aren't going to be as helpful as George Hill, who you will see talking non-stop when he's on the bench...


    I think they should've gone for assets with potential. Potential to improve and potential to be real trade-assets down the line or even at this upcoming trade deadline. Or at least 1 year rentals, to sacrifice some flexibility for Zach Randolph seems crazy to me and frankly favoritism.

    The Kings were in a position to bid on RFA's and run the price up on teams, the real head-scratcher to me is why Zach Randolph when JaMychal Green is clearly much better at this stage and has the potential to play at a high level for years.

    Kentavious Caldwell Pope would've been great here too as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if they have Buddy, the Kings aren't in a position to be that kind of picky/choosey, IMO.
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  6. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    What domI think of those two signings? I think they are just fine. Obviously Vlade knows everything good and bad about both and clearly the coach knows each personally and has worked with them. What more do you need to know to endorse the team's signing them?
    VF21 likes this.
  7. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    But what about flexibility and not getting cap tied beyond the next two years? I think that was a pretty huge part of the equation. They wanted to lock in quality high character guys that will compete but not necessarily freeze out the young core's minutes. Keep them honest if you will. And then in the next two years those guys will depart or join the coaching ranks and we can make some more long range signings once we have a better handle on what we actually have.

    This team is loaded with potential but there's no doubt that we're also going to be disappointed by some of these guys too.
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  8. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Love the gusto. Caron Butler and AT were good guys as well. I'm just not sold on the very subjective nature of the influence of older vets on younger guys careers in this type of fashion, but I hope it works
  9. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Yep on most of that, though not on KCP. The Randolph one kills me more because of that second year. Not big on Shabazz Muhammad but your boy is out here too
  10. Ozymandias

    Ozymandias Well-Known Member

    KCP signed a 1 year deal with the Lakers. I'd have much preferred to sign him to an even bigger 1 year deal and use the Randolph roster spot on a UDFA like Cameron Oliver..

    The option of signing cheaper players and keeping space open to facilitate a deal and pick up a 1st rd pick near the deadline has also been hampered.

    I'm just not a fan of these type of vet signings, going after old vets has been arguably the Knicks biggest downfall for the last 20 years, and Randolph was a part of that debacle too...

    Vince is much more palatable on a one year deal. I'd prefer a situation where the youngins are battling for minutes, let them earn it, use all the spots to try and cultivate talent, worst case you cut them and move on, best case you've got too much talent and can pick and choose and flip the odd men out for future assets.

    I like the idea of having the youngest team in the league too. That to me is something that fanbases can rally around and fans are smart enough these days to know the rammifications of such a thing.

    I like my big-guys to defend the rim and Zach Randolph is anchored to the ground. There's no doubt that JaMychal Green is better at this stage.. Especially with a PG like De'Aaron Fox I picture bigs that can run..

    At the end of the day; I just think these are above market value contracts (not George Hill, he earned that deal).. I'm hard pressed to imagine there was some bidding war on Zach Randolph that drove the price up to 2yrs/$24MM ... Or for Vince at $8MM .. Seems more like they we're bidding against themselves and the negotiations went something like this "Hey Zach/Vince we have space, we want some vets, we know what you bring to the table, this is our offer" and wide-eyed when they saw the offers they said "where do I sign?!?!" and then laughed their way to the bank on the ride home...


    I'm not complaining just to complain either. I have other options, some still unsigned that I'd have preferred. One would be to put in a big offer to Nerlens Noel, thats the type of player who can outperform and be flipped into major assets or developed into a major rotation player for years to come.. At best Randolph or Vince is worth a 2nd rd pick to some injured playoff hopeful team. A cheaper option thats still on the table could've been Alex Len too. There's still quite a bit of talent unsigned.

    I'm not even a big Ben McLemore fan but I'm not crazy about swapping him for Vince and paying Vince more. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat crow if I am, I just don't like the risk/reward.

    Kelly Olynyk's better than Zach Randolph and they both got $12MM per year.. I'ma just stop right there.
  11. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Butler and AT we're here when the Kings had lots of vets.....this is not a veteran team. Abnormally young team in age and experience. You just can't discount that.
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  12. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    They can show them good things, but do you think the difference of JJ panning out is Vince in his ear? Talent seems like talent to me. I think a lot of teams have had a lot of good vets
  13. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    This.
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  14. Suicide King

    Suicide King Well-Known Member

    I think Vlade gave coach what he asked for (my opinion) and I trust Joerger more than any coach since RA. Hill is a very tradable asset imho, VC is a legend on a one year deal. Randolph is slightly harder to swallow but this is where I just have to have faith in the thinking of the coaching staff and front office. When our first major homegrown contract comes up (WCS) we can potentially have boatloads of cap space. Sign him, sign longer term free agents and make our run. Hopefully by then (2019) we have grown, added some pieces from 2018 draft, weeded out who doesn't fit, and further cemented that the franchise has indeed finally gotten out of its own way.
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  15. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    So Demarre Carrol, Kelly Olynyk and KCP would have been difference makers but not Vince and Zbo? KCP would have been redundant with Buddy, Bogs, Malachi and Temple already on the squad. On the outside Carrol does look like the type of player the Kings could use. Though his stats from last season look like Vince's we know he is younger and a scrapper. Olynyk is a banger who can shoot, still how many 5's can the Kings roster handle? Kelly is another player who seems redundant.

    IMO the only concern about Vince and Zbo is their age. I see them as bench players or starters who play limited minutes.

    OP I see your point but with all these personnel moves the player/agent has to want to be a King unless a trade is involved. Even then some GM's take the players wishes into consideration.

    Zbo and Vince are here because of the Jorger connection most likely. The best part of all the Free Agent signings is they played well last season and they wanted to sign with the Kings.

    What is really going to matter is how the young guys develop.
  16. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    There is a reason that teams say that if you have more than 1 rookie on the team it can be disruptive in the way that they are not up to speed with the ins and outs and intricacies of the NBA game on the floor. It slows down the process for teams while they are getting up to speed.

    I think Zbo and Carter, by all accounts that have been made public, are absolutely a home run signings when it comes to mentorship and guys to help the young players. And they have some game left in them....despite the age.
    Randolph is going to help quite a bit by taking pressure off guys to score with the sot clock running down as well. That is a role he's done well. Short term signings with big impact.
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  17. Spike

    Spike Well-Known Member

    Not too long ago we had a team with young talent, and no real leadership. Vlade and Joeger appear to be building for the long term. There's a difference between mentors and vets, especially when trying to create a winning culture in a town, on a team, used to losing.
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  18. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    I agree that Joerger looks to have had a hand in these signings. But I think I've seen a pattern with him, somewhat, that would lead me to question if he holds long term viability higher than immediate results. First, we can see the way he's relied on vets and, to some degree, when we were out of the race last year still arguably emphasizes winning. Then there were the under-the-cuff possible negative insinuations about the Cousins trade (talent wins not culture, OKC made the 'wisest' trade deadline deal)
  19. allrightythen

    allrightythen Well-Known Member

    I for one like the veteran leadership that these guys bring but I'd be lying if I said that I have some idea how much it helps. Leadership and mentoring is so dependent on personalities and relationships that they are largely immeasurable. I think their value can be vastly different from player to player and from team to team and you don't really know until after you see the results. This new group of guys the Kings have put together is a brand new experiment. I like it so far and I hope it works.
  20. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    You bring up many fair points, but I'm focusing on this because that's life as a Kings fan. We're a small market team with a very small historical window of success and players aren't going to come here without being overcompensated. LA is bad right now but they're the Lakers. If they suddenly won 3 games in a row they'd be on SportsCenter every night for a week talking about how Showtime is back. It's just not happening.

    Also though, again, these are Joerger guys. He knows them, and I really think that means something. Maybe I overvalue that. I know with my favorite soccer team sometimes I really scratch my head at why my coach has "his guys". But they're a big minded team with winning aspirations 1 season removed from a championship not a perennial cellar dweller trying to build a culture.
  21. datamanwes

    datamanwes Active Member

    I am totally bought in on the free agent signings. The rookies need to learn the way of NBA life from someone. It can't be just anyone, If the rooks don't respect Carter and Zach then they are not the right group of rookies. It seems like a lot of us criticize or at best second guess every single decision that is made around here. I will use the Niners as a reference. Once it became obvious that they needed a new front office it changed and right now they seem to be moving in the right direction but again we have people second guessing everything. At least give it a chance. It take me long to realize the the gerbil a couple of years ago was in way over his head. These things have a way of playing themselves out
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  22. andjel

    andjel Well-Known Member

    Tdos

    All already said, veterans, former all-stars/legends familiar with the system and the coach, on a short contracts willing to take back seat if needed, with skills that cover basically everything except pg.

    If somebody cannot acknowledge that these signings are significantly speeding up the learning curve of a ton of youngings we have and sees the value in that, frankly do not see what is there to discuss if starting perspective is so different.

    Waiting for Skal, Sf or Pf thread
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  23. The_Jamal

    The_Jamal Well-Known Member

    I would have gone the "asset" collection route, or gone the KCP/Olynyk route of hoping a good role guy breaks out, but I don't think it necessarily means bringing on ZBo and Vince is a bad thing. They're going to play a role and they're going to control the locker room and show all the kids what it means to be a pro. That certainly has value. But we're also a franchise that has literally no idea who the core of the team is going to be in 3 years, outside of probably Fox.

    Kelly O
    KCP
    Simmons
    Dedmon
    Otto Porter
    Alan Williams
    Hardaway JR
    Roberson
    Jaymychal Green
    Mason Plumlee

    Just a few examples of guys who'd fit in our timeline and could (or already are) extremely productive with minutes. None are game-changers obviously, but we're at the stage of looking for real NBA players. Either that or looking for the Carroll deal and taking on more picks.
  24. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Indeed, to create a "winning culture" requires players used to winning. Hill, Zbo and Carter all are winners. It is like them to win.
  25. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    On court mentorship and leadership is crucial.

    If we trot out a bunch of kids, they're going to have to play through their mistakes, as well as the mistakes of their teammates. Skal was garbage in the chaos of summer league, but when he played his role in a more structured offense last season, he was looking like a pretty legit young prospect.

    We need guys like Hill, Z-bo, and Vince. They won't have the kind of impact that will get us a lot of wins, but they'll add much needed cohesion to the team play on the court, which will speed up the development of the kids.

    Nevermind the huge locker room impact they'll have.

    The deals also fit our timeline perfectly as far as rebuild #157 goes. All these graybeards will be expiring when is time to resign our best kids.

    These guys could have been ring chasing as well, but chose to come here instead. Good look for Vlade, Joerger, and the franchise.
  26. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    I'm good with the signings, but I have to admit that I thought we would be able to use our cap space to aquire assets for the future, especially to make up for the lack of a 1st round pick in 2019. Only Hill meets that criteria, in that we could always trade him for a future asset. But Randolph and Carter are Joerger's guys, clearly.
  27. pdxKingsFan

    pdxKingsFan Well-Known Member

    I think we're going to get a high draft pick in 2018 and honestly while we could buy draft picks in 2019, I think at that point we should have a solid idea of what we have and need and at that point I'd rather try to make an impact signing than buy a mid-first round pick.
  28. Gguod

    Gguod Member

    It wouldnt have made sense to sign any of those players. Kings dont lack role players. We lack star players. To get a star player its either preferably top 1-3 draft pick, free agency or a trade. We wont get one via free agency because we most likely wont have cap space without dumping salary. To trade for one we need assets and we have a few young guys that you can pair with pick(s) to possibly get it done but we lack picks.

    I have thought about our offseason and I'm starting to really dislike it. Giving Zbo that second year could harm us next offseason if we were trying to sign Porter type player for the max or trying to use cap space to take in salary dumps for assets. Hills contract isnt bad the way Zbo's contract is bad but I struggle to see the fit to our situation unless we intend to use him as a trade chip.

    Hill plays the same position as Fox and we shouldnt have lock that amount of money for that position long term. That money would have been better spent on a position with bigger need next year when Fox should be able to be the unquestioned starter. Hill brings value in terms of wins but those wins have very little value for us this season so the value he brings doesnt fit that well in our situation.

    I see the value of 'mentoring' but the team cant use that much money for it without it affecting teams ability to improve in the future. Using 40mil for it seems a bit of a overkill especially when most of that money will continue to be in the books for the next year.

    Carters one year contract is fine since we had cap space eventough we overpaid but it doesnt matter since he will be off the books next year. Zbo and Hill will eat up 31 mill worth of cap space next year. Next year being the year we should start to make win now moves, i would think we could do better with that money. Having 19mil going to a backup pg and 12 mil for a non contributor is not an ideal situation. At least we would have space to try to sign a max player. It seems like again we sacrifised our future a little bit and did that a little too early. If our FO thinks Zbo will do wonders as a mentor, I wouldve rather give him 1y/15-18 mill. Hill might be tradeable next year so if that happens then Im fine with it as long as he doesnt take minutes from Fox if he shows he is capapble to be a starter.

    Ps. Not many teams have cap space next summer so Kings could have been in a situation where they wouldve been one of the few teams able to throw max offers around or teams wouldve started bidding war in order to dump salary for us.
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  29. Heuge

    Heuge Well-Known Member

    This organization was in desperate need of character and maturity. The signing of Zbo and Carter set the tone for locker room culture for years to come. Fabulous signings.
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  30. Sac.1989

    Sac.1989 Well-Known Member

    Signings would have been absolutely perfect if Demarcus was still here. 3 guys who are the personification of Vet for a kid who never had any during his time here.

    Putting that aside though they are a great fit for our young kids. I have no issue with them and are very happy to have them as they are the true 'change agents' for our culture and system changes.

    Good solid moves.
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