Rudy Gay to Sacramento!!!
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That's always cute to say, but this is the Western Conference not the East. Your "two interchangeable forwards" might as well just be labeled "Deadmeat 1' and "Deadmeat 2" when every night one of them is supposed to be guarding Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, Blake Griffin, David Lee, Zach Randolph, Dirk, Pau etc. etc.
This was the same mistake Malone made at the beginning of the year starting Patterson at "PF" and leaving Cuz out there all alone on the frontline, not only having to play defensive backstop when its not his natural role, but also having to guard the other team's best post player every night because our "PF" was too wussy to handle the duties. We could do it again maybe, don't know this new regime well enough to tell if they are really that infested with Nellieism or not. But in the end, its a losing strategy and again flies in the face of Malone's stated goals of defense and rebounding (not, as has been noted, Malone or PDA seem to actually say what they mean or mean what they say particularly often).
This was the same mistake Malone made at the beginning of the year starting Patterson at "PF" and leaving Cuz out there all alone on the frontline, not only having to play defensive backstop when its not his natural role, but also having to guard the other team's best post player every night because our "PF" was too wussy to handle the duties. We could do it again maybe, don't know this new regime well enough to tell if they are really that infested with Nellieism or not. But in the end, its a losing strategy and again flies in the face of Malone's stated goals of defense and rebounding (not, as has been noted, Malone or PDA seem to actually say what they mean or mean what they say particularly often).
I loved that team.. Maybe even more than the C-Webb era teams.. The Spurs were scared to death of that 8th seeded Kings team.. Pop said something to the effect of "we won the 1rst seed, and this is our reward".. Too bad they were only together for that year.. Ron I think actually blamed the loss of Bonzi as one of the factors that led to our demise as a franchise. Kenny 'K-9' Thomas was my favorite King at the time, before he turned to a scrub and was actually an underrated, solid 4
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I like the trade. I'll start with that.
Let's sit back and watch the problems reveal themselves. As brick mentioned, we have two guys, neither adequate enough to guard a large PF. Some people have penciled in Williams and Rudy as starters but I suspect we will see JT start as Williams really hasn't earned any right to be a starter with this set of players not even factoring in his height.
We now have a very unclear backup to our center whoever that may be. We have no one who seems adequate although I am open to surprises. Gray has been a bust this year. N'Daiye hasn't proven anything except that he can foul poor free throw shooters.
We have MT as a backup at the SG position and although he has had a horrible year, that position seems settled for better or worse. The man who was the only one not to get any minutes in Utah is still here and that is Jimmer.
Then we have the pg position. We have two pgs. One hasn't played NBA ball before. The other is a 5'9" power house. Maybe we will have to go back to the failed experiment with Jimmer.
In general, how IS our bench? We can field 5 guys but who will score? I don't know Acy so maybe he will be that scoring punch we need. I doubt it. Outlaw will probably be the backup PF which is a bit scary. Then there is the backup PG.
I will simply sit back and see what Malone does. I am not terribly bothered by what may happen with our bench. I hope very much that Ray is adequate so we can use IT off the bench. We need SOME fire off the bench and although a lot of people think he should be a starter because he has earned it, I think he should come off the bench where he has earned the right to free wheel and score as much as he can. Somebody off the bench has to score.
I don't expect much as a few more moves need to be made and part of that is still the draft. This trade was a good start .
Let's sit back and watch the problems reveal themselves. As brick mentioned, we have two guys, neither adequate enough to guard a large PF. Some people have penciled in Williams and Rudy as starters but I suspect we will see JT start as Williams really hasn't earned any right to be a starter with this set of players not even factoring in his height.
We now have a very unclear backup to our center whoever that may be. We have no one who seems adequate although I am open to surprises. Gray has been a bust this year. N'Daiye hasn't proven anything except that he can foul poor free throw shooters.
We have MT as a backup at the SG position and although he has had a horrible year, that position seems settled for better or worse. The man who was the only one not to get any minutes in Utah is still here and that is Jimmer.
Then we have the pg position. We have two pgs. One hasn't played NBA ball before. The other is a 5'9" power house. Maybe we will have to go back to the failed experiment with Jimmer.
In general, how IS our bench? We can field 5 guys but who will score? I don't know Acy so maybe he will be that scoring punch we need. I doubt it. Outlaw will probably be the backup PF which is a bit scary. Then there is the backup PG.
I will simply sit back and see what Malone does. I am not terribly bothered by what may happen with our bench. I hope very much that Ray is adequate so we can use IT off the bench. We need SOME fire off the bench and although a lot of people think he should be a starter because he has earned it, I think he should come off the bench where he has earned the right to free wheel and score as much as he can. Somebody off the bench has to score.
I don't expect much as a few more moves need to be made and part of that is still the draft. This trade was a good start .
Malone would have balls of steel to start Ray Mac over IT. So you sell him to come off the bench for GV the "proven facilitator" and IT gets the minutes at the end of the game. Even when IT is crushing GV's production, he doesn't seemingly cause any problems about it. But a 2nd round pick who has yet to play a real NBA minute? Over the guy who deserves the 6MOY? Thats a damn hard sell, even for the most team-first player.
I also find it a bit ridiculous that you think Ray is already a better fit for our starters. We haven't seen him play yet! How do we know what style of play he fits? Does he even show enough where we can say he'll fit a style of play?
I also find it a bit ridiculous that you think Ray is already a better fit for our starters. We haven't seen him play yet! How do we know what style of play he fits? Does he even show enough where we can say he'll fit a style of play?
This trade was a no brainer!
I have never been much of a Gay fan but this is a clear talent upgrade. We get a starting level SF for a bunch of players who were not in the long term thinking of the front office. If Gay works out, its a big win. If he doesn't, he becomes a gigantic expiring deal next season! A very tradeable asset!
The only downside I see here is that IT is back to a starting role. I think his best role by far is as the 6th man and he is one of the best att hat role in the NBA. I do tend to think that we are on the lookout for a starting PG and the front office sees IT and Landry as the inside-out scoring punch of the bench!
I think the next move to expect is trading JT and Thornton to address the need for a shot blocking, defensive big next to Cousins and starting level PG!
Gay is the type of player you take a chance on, especially if all you are giving up are players not in the long term thinking of the front office!
I have never been much of a Gay fan but this is a clear talent upgrade. We get a starting level SF for a bunch of players who were not in the long term thinking of the front office. If Gay works out, its a big win. If he doesn't, he becomes a gigantic expiring deal next season! A very tradeable asset!
The only downside I see here is that IT is back to a starting role. I think his best role by far is as the 6th man and he is one of the best att hat role in the NBA. I do tend to think that we are on the lookout for a starting PG and the front office sees IT and Landry as the inside-out scoring punch of the bench!
I think the next move to expect is trading JT and Thornton to address the need for a shot blocking, defensive big next to Cousins and starting level PG!
Gay is the type of player you take a chance on, especially if all you are giving up are players not in the long term thinking of the front office!
I took some heat for labeling PDA untrustworthy a couple days ago. I'm standing by that.
They still aren't doing anything that approaches what they said they'd do. Doesn't mean I don't like it despite that. Who listens to what politicians say anyway? Who actually wants a team built around defense and rebounding? What's the goal here? Title or nothing? After so many years of hopelessness, getting actual legit talent is bad? Smh.
Having nba quality players after years of blah is what we all said we wanted when we got new owners. Gay has avg between 17 and 21 ppg for the last 8 years. And he rebounds very well. Ppat and Williams don't/didn't which makes him a much better stretch 4. Sure, he's got the black hole label. So did monta, but he's reborn with Dallas. It's a big IF, but IF gay can get back to more efficient play, and he has many years of much better shooting on his resume, most spent with highly talented front court players not unlike cousins. And if it doesn't work, he's gone after next season before the arena opens.
The only long term downside I see at this early hour is we might get marginally better and screw up this particular draft. We also might be completely dysfunctional. That's on Malone to make it work. But somehow elite talents known for being black holes or disgruntled and disinterested, when put with other elite talents (which I classify cuz as for sure, and mclemore on the verge) and a good coach occasionally turn things around. Webber. Ellis. Gay? They have to gamble. And this gamble has an out after next season. Really, look at how Ellis shooting number shot up. .472 shooting from .416. .380 from 3 up from two straight sub 30 years. Short sample size, but still. You can't teach talent. Gay has ability to score at a high level, which we need. That gaping hole at sf is filled. Might be the wrong guy, but at least they are trying.
They still aren't doing anything that approaches what they said they'd do. Doesn't mean I don't like it despite that. Who listens to what politicians say anyway? Who actually wants a team built around defense and rebounding? What's the goal here? Title or nothing? After so many years of hopelessness, getting actual legit talent is bad? Smh.
Having nba quality players after years of blah is what we all said we wanted when we got new owners. Gay has avg between 17 and 21 ppg for the last 8 years. And he rebounds very well. Ppat and Williams don't/didn't which makes him a much better stretch 4. Sure, he's got the black hole label. So did monta, but he's reborn with Dallas. It's a big IF, but IF gay can get back to more efficient play, and he has many years of much better shooting on his resume, most spent with highly talented front court players not unlike cousins. And if it doesn't work, he's gone after next season before the arena opens.
The only long term downside I see at this early hour is we might get marginally better and screw up this particular draft. We also might be completely dysfunctional. That's on Malone to make it work. But somehow elite talents known for being black holes or disgruntled and disinterested, when put with other elite talents (which I classify cuz as for sure, and mclemore on the verge) and a good coach occasionally turn things around. Webber. Ellis. Gay? They have to gamble. And this gamble has an out after next season. Really, look at how Ellis shooting number shot up. .472 shooting from .416. .380 from 3 up from two straight sub 30 years. Short sample size, but still. You can't teach talent. Gay has ability to score at a high level, which we need. That gaping hole at sf is filled. Might be the wrong guy, but at least they are trying.
I really like this trade, but more because of what is going than what is coming.
I think Gay and Cousins COULD be a formidable tandem, but I don't want Gay playing the 4.
The major problem, and one that people have highlighted throughout this thread, is that I don't think Gay, Cousins and IT can share the floor together unless the NBA changes the rule to allow three balls on the floor at the same time. The only two things this team had working at all this year was Cousins being top dog in the starting five, and IT having the deepest green light of his career in the second unit. That's an either/or proposition. Moving IT into the starting five, which I think they have to do, is going to mess with that formula.
I think Gay and Cousins COULD be a formidable tandem, but I don't want Gay playing the 4.
The major problem, and one that people have highlighted throughout this thread, is that I don't think Gay, Cousins and IT can share the floor together unless the NBA changes the rule to allow three balls on the floor at the same time. The only two things this team had working at all this year was Cousins being top dog in the starting five, and IT having the deepest green light of his career in the second unit. That's an either/or proposition. Moving IT into the starting five, which I think they have to do, is going to mess with that formula.
As I said elsewhere, as the team get more talented, IT will have to take a backseat or he'll be gone. It seems weird to say that since he's apparently going to start, which doesn't fit with taking a backseat, but he had free reign. He can't anymore. And gay can't either. If they don't buy in, neither will be around. Cuz is the man. If they don't get that, find someone who does. IT doesn't have a contract, and gay is only through next. This isn't a long term situation we are stuck in.
ITs assists need to rise and shots fall. I don't have a lot of faith he can do that.
I've got a lot more faith we are moving in the right direction.
I don't have many reservations about cuz being able to play with gay. That's overblown. Talented guys can mesh. You know there was some laker fan in 1980 worrying that Kareem couldn't play with magic cause Kareem was too slow. Total hogwash. And no, I'm not comparing Kareem to gay or magic. Talent plays with talent if they can each sacrifice for the greater good. Gay in Toronto had no one to defer to. He does here. It can be different. It may not, but there's hope. I'll take that. And some thought how can wade and Lebron play together? Well, it seems to work ok, doesn't it? I'm more worried IT won't mesh than gay and cuz. And it's ITs job to blend with them, not the other way around.
ITs assists need to rise and shots fall. I don't have a lot of faith he can do that.
I've got a lot more faith we are moving in the right direction.
I don't have many reservations about cuz being able to play with gay. That's overblown. Talented guys can mesh. You know there was some laker fan in 1980 worrying that Kareem couldn't play with magic cause Kareem was too slow. Total hogwash. And no, I'm not comparing Kareem to gay or magic. Talent plays with talent if they can each sacrifice for the greater good. Gay in Toronto had no one to defer to. He does here. It can be different. It may not, but there's hope. I'll take that. And some thought how can wade and Lebron play together? Well, it seems to work ok, doesn't it? I'm more worried IT won't mesh than gay and cuz. And it's ITs job to blend with them, not the other way around.
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We saw him in preseason against veterans and he got extended playing time in a few games. I recall him playing very well against Steve Blake....and you say big deal its Steve Blake but we couldn't stop Blake the other night.
No one is calling Ray our savior, that's another over the top comment. I highly doubt that they would move GV if they didn't think Ray could handle himself on the court. I mean criminy, we had Jimmer playing PG last year and he can dribble about like Ben! I think if Ray is given a chance , at a minimum, fans will be happy with what he offers as a backup...and best case scenario is he's a better than a backup. Right now our best PG is the last player drafted a few years ago...is it really a stretch to imagine that he might be ok? Free Ray!
No one is calling Ray our savior, that's another over the top comment. I highly doubt that they would move GV if they didn't think Ray could handle himself on the court. I mean criminy, we had Jimmer playing PG last year and he can dribble about like Ben! I think if Ray is given a chance , at a minimum, fans will be happy with what he offers as a backup...and best case scenario is he's a better than a backup. Right now our best PG is the last player drafted a few years ago...is it really a stretch to imagine that he might be ok? Free Ray!
This. Rudy Gay might be a better player than Jason Thompson but he's not a better PF than Thompson. The only time Gay should be playing PF is when the other team goes small and we can't afford to have Thompson on the floor. There's no way Gay can consistently cover those guys you listed. He's a plus rebounder from the SF spot and a negative rebounder from the PF spot. The Nellie ball stuff is worrisome but we don't have the shooters to play Nellie ball even if we tried.
not once did i claim that evans is a better player than gay. not once. i'm simply making the argument that those who aren't familiar with rudy gay's recent body of work are likely to be disappointed when he starts bricking long two's game after game after game, while failing to swing the ball across the perimeter and struggling to rebound/defend as a "stretch 4."
I like the lineup, but I really question whether McCallum is ready for NBA play time, let alone the starting job. He did some good things in summer league and preseason, but I don't want to pin the hopes of the starting five on a guy who hasn't played a minute outside garbage time so far this year.
If we are starting IT, then I would prefer Jimmer to be the first guard off the bench. He fits the mold of sixth man better than Thornton in being able to score and distribute some as well as being able to play alongside Thomas, Thornton, and McCallum (but probably not McLemore as you don't want two guys with suspect handles in the backcourt.)
If we are starting IT, then I would prefer Jimmer to be the first guard off the bench. He fits the mold of sixth man better than Thornton in being able to score and distribute some as well as being able to play alongside Thomas, Thornton, and McCallum (but probably not McLemore as you don't want two guys with suspect handles in the backcourt.)
As someone who has been arguing for Thomas to take over the starting PG role from Vasquez, this isn't really what I was expecting, or how I thought that world work.
When the Kings let Evans go, Thomas as the starting point guard started making more sense. He was now the second best player on the team, and I didn't think he'd be stealing shots from anyone in a major way. Westbrook and Durant play together. You can have two high FGA per game guys, but any more than that and you run into trouble.
The truth is, Thomas is likely a better offensive player than Rudy Gay, or at least he has been THIS year. I mean, Thomas is shooting an insane .403 this season from 3, which is a pretty massive improvement from past years. He's even getting to the FT line more than Gay. Across the board, Thomas has been better.
Someone is going to have to take a back seat. It doesn't necessarily have to be Thomas, but that seems more likely because Gay has a much longer track record of being 'that' guy.
So I have the same concerns as most of you. This team now has 3 guys averaging over 17 PPG in their starting lineup. Something is clearly going to have to give, and I just think Malone is smart enough to not allow it to be Cousins. He's the guy WE gave the max too. This is HIS team. I think he will still get his touches. Malone will make sure of it.
Thomas and Gay are going to be the guys who duke it out for shots, and if Gay can settle into a role that brings him closer to a more efficient 15 PPG guy who rebounds and blocks shots, and Thomas can settle into a similar 15 PPG guy with 6 AST ( only one more than he averages now ) ... The Kings will be better for it.
When the Kings let Evans go, Thomas as the starting point guard started making more sense. He was now the second best player on the team, and I didn't think he'd be stealing shots from anyone in a major way. Westbrook and Durant play together. You can have two high FGA per game guys, but any more than that and you run into trouble.
The truth is, Thomas is likely a better offensive player than Rudy Gay, or at least he has been THIS year. I mean, Thomas is shooting an insane .403 this season from 3, which is a pretty massive improvement from past years. He's even getting to the FT line more than Gay. Across the board, Thomas has been better.
Someone is going to have to take a back seat. It doesn't necessarily have to be Thomas, but that seems more likely because Gay has a much longer track record of being 'that' guy.
So I have the same concerns as most of you. This team now has 3 guys averaging over 17 PPG in their starting lineup. Something is clearly going to have to give, and I just think Malone is smart enough to not allow it to be Cousins. He's the guy WE gave the max too. This is HIS team. I think he will still get his touches. Malone will make sure of it.
Thomas and Gay are going to be the guys who duke it out for shots, and if Gay can settle into a role that brings him closer to a more efficient 15 PPG guy who rebounds and blocks shots, and Thomas can settle into a similar 15 PPG guy with 6 AST ( only one more than he averages now ) ... The Kings will be better for it.
Some of you are impossible to please. The only perfect player in this league is Lebron. We can't all get him.
We already seen Williams hit mclemore on breaks multiple times. The pg isn't the only one allowed to pass. I know gay has that rep as never ever passing, but I think that sometimes is situation dependent.
We already seen Williams hit mclemore on breaks multiple times. The pg isn't the only one allowed to pass. I know gay has that rep as never ever passing, but I think that sometimes is situation dependent.
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Like you said, IT has been better for these 18 games. This year. Right now. Not his career, and not even in points scored unless you do the per 36 trick. IT has shot better. But gosh it's early. Gay is clearly at rock bottom or close to it, And he's still a 20 ppg guy. He's been much better. He can be again.
It's gonna take a bit to figure out how to make it work with IT starting, and it may never work. Or, there must be a d league pg out there than can bring the ball up and stay out of the way. This isn't done, the tinkering, can't be.
Having guys that can put the ball in the hoop is a basic requirement. We have three of those now. This is a good thing. The role players are much easier to fill.
It's gonna take a bit to figure out how to make it work with IT starting, and it may never work. Or, there must be a d league pg out there than can bring the ball up and stay out of the way. This isn't done, the tinkering, can't be.
Having guys that can put the ball in the hoop is a basic requirement. We have three of those now. This is a good thing. The role players are much easier to fill.
