Pace

Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#1
#1
This is the topic of the month. The players mention it and the coach mentions it. The players also mention being a little lost on the court. And finally, we aren't doing well.

What is meant by pace and in a practical sense, how would I know if the Kings "pace" has changed? Does anyone think that Corbin understands the concept and how it would impact his coaching?

I suspect the players and coach are giving a reasonable effort (and so probably Ty) but it has created massive confusion. I sure don't get it.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#4
#4
PACE
As Glenn said, the players mention it, the coach mentions it, the FO mentions it, I can see no evidence of it, we played poorly and lost before PACE and we have played poorly and lost after PACE, we turned the ball over at a high rate before and after. So I don't understand it as a positive or a negative. It is significant that during this before and after period we have steadily worsened and that is not good or hopeful. Maybe if it continues to do so something will happen to change things like a minority owner attacking Vivek.
 
T

The Hammer

All-Star
#6
#6
My high school basketball coach talked about this, but not at all in the gimmicky way our FO and even our coach is talking about it. Pace, as he talked about it, was not about running up and down the court and taking as many shots as possible. Rather, it was about imposing your offensive execution without letting the defense disrupt or delay getting into your offense. It was about the solid fundamentals of escaping traps, moving the ball with passes, not dribbles, taking a shot when you had one, or making the extra pass. Basically, just solid fundamental offense. I don't know why the FO seems to feel they need to re-brand the game of basketball. Taking more shots than your opponent is about simply fundamentals of ball protection ("respect the ball!" ... I can hear my coach saying now), and consistent defensive pressure to force turnovers. Also, rebounding, which we were doing very well. It is not about shoot as fast as you can and leaking out on defense. That's just stupid logic, because as soon as you shoot, guess what, the other team gets a possession, especially if you did it early in the clock and didn't have offensive rebounders in position yet.

It has nothing to do with jacking up as many shots as you can as quickly as you can. That is just a ridiculous notion. That's essentially turning the game into an aerobic workout contest, something Loyola Marymout (Bo Kimble RIP) did in the early 90s with some success, but that's what they were consciously doing: they trained harder than anyone else, their workouts were legendary: sprinting up huge sand dunes, over and over till guys puked left and right. But they were in amazing shape and simply ran teams out of the gym by the second half.

If that's the kind of "pace" we're talking about, it's not really about basketball, it's just about conditioning. If we're talking about "pace" the way my coach would talk about it (also used the word "tempo"), then we should ironically be doing exactly what Malone was not only preaching, but having the guys learn to do: rebound well to maximize possessions, win the turnover battle (needed work but Malone was always harping on it), apply consistent defensive pressure and avoid defensive breakdowns, make the extra pass, shoot when your open, don't take bad shots, move the ball with passes, don't over dribble. Seriously, it's just fundamentals. When did that stop being sexy? The answer is never, and that's why the Spurs have won 5 rings in the past what, ten years?
 
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9x1x6

9x1x6

Bench
#11
#11
*Extends best post big man in the game* Now let's up the pace and win some ball games!

I hope they get over this crap soon, or else when I move back to Sac this year I'll have to invest in pitchforks.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#12
#12
The word, "pace" is a curse word, more obscene than any this board has ever banned from use. From this moment forward it should not be heard or uttered in Kings' society.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#13
#13
9x1x6 said:
*Extends best post big man in the game* Now let's up the pace and win some ball games!

I hope they get over this poopoo soon, or else when I move back to Sac this year I'll have to invest in pitchforks.
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Well now this I have seen. Boogie has been out high much to my consternation. It is not that he shouldn't be there but not so darn much because his low post moves are unstoppable. His low post stuff is also probably more tiring so I can see playing some high and some low post. If indeed he is more in the high post, I think that explains the rise in his TOs as he seems to have a lot of trouble passing from that position. Heck what big guy would have trouble in the high post. It's not natural to him.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#14
#14
Kingster said:
The word, "pace" is a curse word, more obscene than any this board has ever banned from use. From this moment forward it should not be heard or uttered in Kings' society.
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The problem is that don't think anybody has been able to define it. If we can't define it, what are we banning?
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#16
#16
The Hammer said:
My high school basketball coach talked about this, but not at all in the gimmicky way our FO and even our coach is talking about it. Pace, as he talked about it, was not about running up and down the court and taking as many shots as possible. Rather, it was about imposing your offensive execution without letting the defense disrupt or delay getting into your offense. It was about the solid fundamentals of escaping traps, moving the ball with passes, not dribbles, taking a shot when you had one, or making the extra pass. Basically, just solid fundamental offense. I don't know why the FO seems to feel they need to re-brand the game of basketball. Taking more shots than your opponent is about simply fundamentals of ball protection ("respect the ball!" ... I can hear my coach saying now), and consistent defensive pressure to force turnovers. Also, rebounding, which we were doing very well. It is not about shoot as fast as you can and leaking out on defense. That's just stupid logic, because as soon as you shoot, guess what, the other team gets a possession, especially if you did it early in the clock and didn't have offensive rebounders in position yet.
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The thing is, if they had talked about those things when they fired Malone, I feel like we (or, at least, I) would have been a little more receptive. Malone's offense was prone to breakdowns--we saw those massive leads evaporate on multiple occasions even when Cousins was healthy--and too much iso ball. The idea had to be that you'd get some offensive improvements built upon the gains Malone implemented on defense. Of course, that's not what happened.
 
Glenn

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#18
#18
I take it no one knows what pace means. I wonder if the players and the coach know. I doubt it. They just know that it is wise to say "the pace was wrong" when the team loses and say "the pace was getting better" when the team wins.

There is no more need for this thread as it has deteriorated into a joke thread. Thanks Hammer for a great try.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#19
#19
Glenn said:
I take it no one knows what pace means. I wonder if the players and the coach know. I doubt it. They just know that it is wise to say "the pace was wrong" when the team loses and say "the pace was getting better" when the team wins.

There is no more need for this thread as it has deteriorated into a joke thread. Thanks Hammer for a great try.
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I believe pace defined is when you fire your coach for no good reason
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#20
#20
Glenn said:
I take it no one knows what pace means. I wonder if the players and the coach know. I doubt it. They just know that it is wise to say "the pace was wrong" when the team loses and say "the pace was getting better" when the team wins.

There is no more need for this thread as it has deteriorated into a joke thread. Thanks Hammer for a great try.
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Gotta disagree, Glenn. I think there's every need for this thread, and others like it. The more we can joke, even if its just gallows humor, the more likely it is we won't do something more drastic. ;)
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#22
#22
Glenn said:
I take it no one knows what pace means. I wonder if the players and the coach know. I doubt it. They just know that it is wise to say "the pace was wrong" when the team loses and say "the pace was getting better" when the team wins.
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I think that's the problem. PDA has a clear idea what pace means to him, but as he has no real basketball skill, he likely can't explain it, but, trust him. Corbin likely has a different idea of what pace means, but I doubt you could find Sloan coached teams worrying about pace. To the players, pace means, "do the opposite of what Malone told us because when we did what he told us he got fired and we were told it was about style and pace".
Given all of those ideas, and you end up with what you see on the court. The explanations are vague at best, so the product on the floor mirrors that confusion.

Even the fans have a different idea of pace. Is our understanding based off of a number, or a style of play? Frankly, I think it's a crap metric made up to quantify something that doesn't translate into wins. Why our FO is currently obsessed about it explains a lot.
 
chief bromden

chief bromden

Starter
#27
#27
Larry89 said:

Pace.

The first 6 minutes of this video has more excitement than any of the games after Malone's firing combined.

( I would recommend watching this entire video to make you feel good)
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Sad to say, but it's weird to hear no instrumental hiphop/rap while the Kings are on offense. I wish we'd go back to that. Oh, and that pace is nice.
 
P

Prince_XY

Starter
#29
#29
pshn80 said:
PACE
As Glenn said, the players mention it, the coach mentions it, the FO mentions it, I can see no evidence of it, we played poorly and lost before PACE and we have played poorly and lost after PACE, we turned the ball over at a high rate before and after.
Click to expand...
LPKingsFan said:
Malone's offense was prone to breakdowns--we saw those massive leads evaporate on multiple occasions even when Cousins was healthy--and too much iso ball. The idea had to be that you'd get some offensive improvements built upon the gains Malone implemented on defense. Of course, that's not what happened.
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I agree with both of you.

I think it is more of players not playing inspired game or losing focus to win that has something to do with our continuous losing. The lost of focus of players in giving utmost effort on defense also contributed to our losses. Our players seems to also be in bad physical conditioning. However young they are, they cannot sustain a fast paced offense with adequate defense. They always seem to compromise one for the other or when they do both, they cannot sustain it.

I think we should believe the simple explanation of this FAST PACE according to Cousins and coach Corbin. It is not actually complicated and not far from what most winning teams do. I think the idea was to make use or augment all players talent and not rely solely on iso-plays of Cousins/Gay which LPKingsFan has rightfully stated to not having helped the team to win games at times.

http://www.nba.com/2014/news/features/scott_howard_cooper/12/20/kings-feature-scott-howard-cooper/


"I can run," Cousins said after pushing through early fatigue to play a commendable 33 minutes on Thursday, including the entire fourth quarter. "I'm able to run. We'll just be a faster team. I think it'll help. I think I rebound at a good enough rate where we can get some guys out running on the floor. Hopefully we can just get easier baskets running."

That's obviously the goal. Getting there, though, will be continuously asking one of the best rebounders in the game to work the defensive boards, sprint the other way to catch up to the ball and remain one of the best scorers in the game and one of the best passing big men.

The halfcourt is where Cousins' talent is maximized.

"It is," interim coach Tyrone Corbin conceded. "You look at him on the low post against most teams in this league, he's effective and that's where he does the bulk of his work at. We still will have to continue to use him in that area, also try and expand the game or speed the game a little bit to utilize the other guys in the open court."

There is simply a challenge to basing an offense on transition when the best player is a center.

"There is," Corbin said. "You want to take advantage of all the assets you have on your team, but for the way this team is built, DeMarcus is a huge asset for us and we have to make sure we utilize his talents and are not wasting his minutes on the floor. There will be opportunities as we try and balance things out of when to go fast, when to slow it down to control the tempo and try to go inside. He can run at times. He can be effective there. We can get him down the floor quickly, take advantage of his mismatches on the post early. There'll be some challenges to see which pace is better for us as we go forward."
 
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