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SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- The Sacramento have picked up the 2016-17 option on guard Ben McLemore's contract.
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Kings pick up option on G Ben McLemore (The Associated Press)
This just came to mind.... It's in regards to trading Ben (those of you who "believe" in him, please look away!).... It's a name we have mentioned before, but what about Kevin Martin? I somewhat follow the Wolves and they just named LaVine the starter, but K-Mart said in training camp that "I am a starting SG." There might be some inside tension there, as well as an opportunity. K-Mart is a great spot-up shooter and still has some game left in him. I am aware that he might not fit the starting line up 100% (defense is not great, but we do have WCS in the back of him patrolling behind him), but he is able to knock down shots very consistently. Would the Wolves bite? Would we even want him?
I don't believe in Ben, he just doesn't have "it." He's not a smart basketball player and that is why I think we should just let him go while he still has some value. He has had 2 years to improve upon his biggest deficiencies: hitting spot up shots, playing consistent defense, and dribbling. All of these things have remained largely the same. Coach just benched him in a preseason game for a guy I didn't even hear of until we got him. For those of you that thinks I am hating on him, I assure you I was a huge fan when we got him, but the kid isn't getting it.
http://www.startribune.com/kevin-martin-relegated-to-reserve-on-rebuilding-wolves/331489811/
I don't believe in Ben, he just doesn't have "it." He's not a smart basketball player and that is why I think we should just let him go while he still has some value. He has had 2 years to improve upon his biggest deficiencies: hitting spot up shots, playing consistent defense, and dribbling. All of these things have remained largely the same. Coach just benched him in a preseason game for a guy I didn't even hear of until we got him. For those of you that thinks I am hating on him, I assure you I was a huge fan when we got him, but the kid isn't getting it.
http://www.startribune.com/kevin-martin-relegated-to-reserve-on-rebuilding-wolves/331489811/
We are already short on wing defenders. Giving up Ben for Martin would worsen our situation there. Our best perimeter defender would be Collison. Against the likes of Klay Thompson, James Harden or even Alec Burks or Jordan Clarkson that's a disaster waiting to happen.
When we trade Ben it has to be for a two way player, who ideally can guard at least 2 positions.
When we trade Ben it has to be for a two way player, who ideally can guard at least 2 positions.
Of course I have noticed it. But athleticism is the foundation of defense. Martin isn't able to keep up with most of the SG's in the West.
And if you take a closer look at the SG position throughout the league, there aren't many SG's that are clearly ahead of Ben (based on last seasons production) and are possible trade targets.
I would switch Ben for a guy like Shumpert and don't look back, but I doubt the Cavs would pick up the phone.
Maybe...and it's a big maybe you can get guys like Bazemore or Fournier somehow.
Or maybe Anderson is our version of last years Justin Holiday. But that remains to be seen and I wouldn't think about trading Ben, until Anderson has proven he is a legit NBA 3&D player.
And if you take a closer look at the SG position throughout the league, there aren't many SG's that are clearly ahead of Ben (based on last seasons production) and are possible trade targets.
I would switch Ben for a guy like Shumpert and don't look back, but I doubt the Cavs would pick up the phone.
Maybe...and it's a big maybe you can get guys like Bazemore or Fournier somehow.
Or maybe Anderson is our version of last years Justin Holiday. But that remains to be seen and I wouldn't think about trading Ben, until Anderson has proven he is a legit NBA 3&D player.
I don't know if this quarter is a good example for the "Ben is a poor defender narrative".
Actually when Ben was on the floor Thompson scored mostly in transition, fueled by our stupid turnovers.
Most of Thompsons points were against Nik and Ray and actually most jumpers where contested.
Sometimes shooters won't miss.
When comparing Ben to KMart I have to say - Ben actually tries to play D and has the tools to do so. Kmart not so much....
Actually when Ben was on the floor Thompson scored mostly in transition, fueled by our stupid turnovers.
Most of Thompsons points were against Nik and Ray and actually most jumpers where contested.
Sometimes shooters won't miss.
When comparing Ben to KMart I have to say - Ben actually tries to play D and has the tools to do so. Kmart not so much....
I don't think you're hating on him, I know you are. 
Now you're just looking for confirmation of your opinion. And it's really wishful thinking that he won't start when the real games come around. You still go with the young talent and hope he develops. I'm disappointed too but I'm not jumping off a bridge in early october over a couple preseason games.
Also, You keep saying he was "benched." That is incorrect, as I believe I pointed out to you in the game thread. Proof below.
Now you're just looking for confirmation of your opinion. And it's really wishful thinking that he won't start when the real games come around. You still go with the young talent and hope he develops. I'm disappointed too but I'm not jumping off a bridge in early october over a couple preseason games.Also, You keep saying he was "benched." That is incorrect, as I believe I pointed out to you in the game thread. Proof below.
I don't think you're hating on him, I know you are. Now you're just looking for confirmation of your opinion. And it's really wishful thinking that he won't start when the real games come around. You still go with the young talent and hope he develops. I'm disappointed too but I'm not jumping off a bridge in early october over a couple preseason games.
Also, You keep saying he was "benched." That is incorrect, as I believe I pointed out to you in the game thread. Proof below.
Now you're just looking for confirmation of your opinion. And it's really wishful thinking that he won't start when the real games come around. You still go with the young talent and hope he develops. I'm disappointed too but I'm not jumping off a bridge in early october over a couple preseason games.Also, You keep saying he was "benched." That is incorrect, as I believe I pointed out to you in the game thread. Proof below.
It's simply a matter of fact he wasn't benched per the coach, the guy who would know the intent. There's nothing to argue.
There's a good chance another starter will be "benched" tonight. Karl said one starter would sit every game if I recall correctly.
Also, KK started game 1 and hasn't started since. So yes, other players have been, as you say, "benched". Might be Rudy tonight. Might be cuz. Might be rondo. Karl will continue to experiment.
There's a good chance another starter will be "benched" tonight. Karl said one starter would sit every game if I recall correctly.
Also, KK started game 1 and hasn't started since. So yes, other players have been, as you say, "benched". Might be Rudy tonight. Might be cuz. Might be rondo. Karl will continue to experiment.
2 years? After watching his first 2 years you think he sucks?
Ben was thrown into the fire his 1st year under a chaotic environment...
In his 2nd year he made huge enormous leaps and bounds.
2 preseason games in and people decide he sucks now?? Holy cow...do we expect every player drafted to become the next Lebron? What happened to developing players?? He can't hit open shots?? I'm pretty sure he was like .350% from 3 which is average.
I agree with you, he can't dribble.
His defense is not terrible...he suffers because of team of overall suck ass team defense. He always gets lit by opposing SGs? Like who? Oh you mean the good guys like Harden and Klay who lights up against everyone else too?
Be patient with him. Why aren't Piston fans calling Caldwell pope a bust when their careers have gone the same way?
Lol it wasn't all on Ben. Someone posted the highlight..
People complain about Ben's defense...but when it comes to Martin, we have WCS, so it's ok. What the heck? Lol?
This board is laughable. 22yearold player who's struggling should be trading for an injury prone, aging, and non defense playing Kevin Martin.
Holy crap. No wonder we can't ever draft right. The fans mindset is terrible.
This franchise can't develop for crap...and when we actually start trying to develop players, lets just ship them away!
I have more of a problem of people suggesting we trade him for Martin lol.
Why aren't people calling guys like Otto Porter, KCP, Len, and etc busts?
Ben was thrown into the fire his 1st year under a chaotic environment...
In his 2nd year he made huge enormous leaps and bounds.
2 preseason games in and people decide he sucks now?? Holy cow...do we expect every player drafted to become the next Lebron? What happened to developing players?? He can't hit open shots?? I'm pretty sure he was like .350% from 3 which is average.
I agree with you, he can't dribble.
His defense is not terrible...he suffers because of team of overall suck ass team defense. He always gets lit by opposing SGs? Like who? Oh you mean the good guys like Harden and Klay who lights up against everyone else too?
Be patient with him. Why aren't Piston fans calling Caldwell pope a bust when their careers have gone the same way?
Lol it wasn't all on Ben. Someone posted the highlight..
People complain about Ben's defense...but when it comes to Martin, we have WCS, so it's ok. What the heck? Lol?
This board is laughable. 22yearold player who's struggling should be trading for an injury prone, aging, and non defense playing Kevin Martin.
Holy crap. No wonder we can't ever draft right. The fans mindset is terrible.
This franchise can't develop for crap...and when we actually start trying to develop players, lets just ship them away!
I have more of a problem of people suggesting we trade him for Martin lol.
Why aren't people calling guys like Otto Porter, KCP, Len, and etc busts?
When it comes to Martin, he can get to the line, drive inside, create his own shot, etc. That kind of makes up for some of his defensive woes. Unfortunately for Ben, he doesn't have ANY of those assets.
And one more thing, just in passing...you're part of that "this board" mentality, dude. You keep acting as though somehow you're above the rest of us, when you're no better or worse at this than anyone else.
And one more thing, just in passing...you're part of that "this board" mentality, dude. You keep acting as though somehow you're above the rest of us, when you're no better or worse at this than anyone else.
I thought he has sucked for well over a year now. It's not always about the numbers, it's about what I see on the court. It may not be the same thing you see, or want to see, but what I see is a player who has not consistently hit the open shot from outside on quick outlet passes, and a player that has been hugely inconsistent with a role that demands consistency. With Rondo in the lineup, 35% won't do, not even close. We absolutely need that person to be close to .400%, otherwise that lineup will not work well. Rudy is respectable from deep and can keep his man honest, but we need that 2nd guy to be close to lights out from deep in order to prevent teams from completely collapsing in the paint. Shooting is our achilles heel and Ben, while average, has been a letdown in that department. He missed threes last season that may have changed the outlook of a few games. Down 2 or 3 points late in the game or making a comeback, Ben gets a wide open 3, clank. We can't afford that this season. While I did mention Kevin Martin, I would be more than ok with another player that can hit from deep and actually be a consistent player. It doesn't have to be Kevin Martin, it just so happens that Martin may be available.
Martin isn't good on D, but I don't view it as a severe drop off like some do. In his defense, Martin's career defensive rating is 111, Ben's is 112. Offensive rating: 115 vs 101. You can figure out who is who.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike02.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mclembe01.html
Not everyone is worth developing, especially if it has a net negative on the team as a whole. It would be different if he was developing off the bench, but he isn't. His development should have been more accelerated considering the massive amounts of minutes he has been playing since day 1, but it hasn't been. It's been painful to watch. Sure, you could say Ben has made strides in his 2nd season as compared to the first, but his first season was absolutely a disgrace in every sense of the word. He had to improve by default, he literally could not have sucked more. Also, how do you know what Pistons fan say about KCP? I sure don't.
To those that have said that Koufos was benched/taken out of the starting lineup, well that is easily explainable. All offseason, it was a question of who would start next to Cousins. Do we go with a vet, or a rookie, which is the best fit, etc.. Well, it looks like it is WCS (I personally prefer it that way). However, we have also had conversations about Ben vs Bellinelli and who would start. Ben won out based on fit, but 2 games in, Anderson was playing SG in a starting role. Ben was not given the day off, so that excuse doesn't fly. Koufos is the only one that was given a night off (he didn't play at all, IIRC, in the 2nd game). No other player has been pulled from the starting lineup. I don't know what happens tonight, but if it's Anderson starting, then it no longer is a coincidence. For the life of me, I just can't see what Ben has done to deserve such a critical role on this team. He can develop on the bench more slowly-- we can trade some other fodder and get a vet SG to hold the spot over until Ben is hopefully one day ready. But that day ain't today.
No one expected Ben to be Lebron, or even close to that. We did expect to see consistency out of him and dependable shooting. IMO, he has not achieved either of those marks yet.
Martin isn't good on D, but I don't view it as a severe drop off like some do. In his defense, Martin's career defensive rating is 111, Ben's is 112. Offensive rating: 115 vs 101. You can figure out who is who.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike02.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mclembe01.html
Not everyone is worth developing, especially if it has a net negative on the team as a whole. It would be different if he was developing off the bench, but he isn't. His development should have been more accelerated considering the massive amounts of minutes he has been playing since day 1, but it hasn't been. It's been painful to watch. Sure, you could say Ben has made strides in his 2nd season as compared to the first, but his first season was absolutely a disgrace in every sense of the word. He had to improve by default, he literally could not have sucked more. Also, how do you know what Pistons fan say about KCP? I sure don't.
To those that have said that Koufos was benched/taken out of the starting lineup, well that is easily explainable. All offseason, it was a question of who would start next to Cousins. Do we go with a vet, or a rookie, which is the best fit, etc.. Well, it looks like it is WCS (I personally prefer it that way). However, we have also had conversations about Ben vs Bellinelli and who would start. Ben won out based on fit, but 2 games in, Anderson was playing SG in a starting role. Ben was not given the day off, so that excuse doesn't fly. Koufos is the only one that was given a night off (he didn't play at all, IIRC, in the 2nd game). No other player has been pulled from the starting lineup. I don't know what happens tonight, but if it's Anderson starting, then it no longer is a coincidence. For the life of me, I just can't see what Ben has done to deserve such a critical role on this team. He can develop on the bench more slowly-- we can trade some other fodder and get a vet SG to hold the spot over until Ben is hopefully one day ready. But that day ain't today.
No one expected Ben to be Lebron, or even close to that. We did expect to see consistency out of him and dependable shooting. IMO, he has not achieved either of those marks yet.
Er...people kinda are. But Porter had the excuse of largely missing his first year. And Len flashed some development last year, although I don't like him as much as the other young bigs.
Here's another name BTW: Jared Sullinger. With Lee's arrival in Boston, Sullinger might be on the outs there. And he ALMOST represents a second scoring big with stretch possibilities too (although when you look at the numbers, he's a sub-30% 3pt shooter maybe just shooting them because coaches nowadays are stupid). Lousy defender, but then again I always figured our stretch guy might be, let the other 3 longer guys defend.
But anyway, the thing is that Ben is weak. Nice kid. But weak. His game is limited, but its his inherent timidity that is often the issue. And surprisingly after having seen the team a few times that is looking to me to be more of an issue than I thought it would be. We are going to need a third scorer in that starting lineup, a real one, because we have 2 true roleplayers there who aren't at all, and Cuz and Rudy can't take every shot without spacing help. And Marco seems a good bench fit. I had thought with all the vets that Ben was gravy, but right now its looking like once again we need him to be things he has not shown himself to be. I was hoping maybe Butler could fill that gap, but he might be done. Anderson is just a highly highly mediocre player. Almost like one of those randomly generated fill in players completely average at everything that computer games generate if you are short a player. If you are starting him its a bad sign that you are giving up. The thing we have not seen yet that I was anticipating might buy us 10-15 min a game is Rondo/Collison together in the backcourt -- I was hoping we might only need 36 min of quality SG play because we were going to cheat with 2 PGs for stretches.. But so far that hasn't been out there.
I think I pioneered the Ben for Kevin idea last year. The summer FA haul would have made that less on my mind then it was previously, but it still sits there. It does feel like closing a door. But then again, if the move took us from a 40 win team with a positional./spacing hole and made us a 48 win playoff team with enough spacing/scoring/guard play...maybe its opening a long closed door instead. Of course ironically its Kevin's own mentality, his softness and lack of attention to defense, that keeps him as impactless as any 20pt scorer is ever likely to be. But we don't need an impact guy per say. We need a real shooter, which Kevin is, who can cut/play off the ball, which Kevin can, and who demands teams guard him and tight, which Kevin does. He can score 15ppg in his sleep. In fact only 1 year has he never not, when he averaged 14ppg as an impactless 6th man for OKC. he still averaged 20ppg last season, when available. He's not wildly efficient anymore, but still acceptable. And if the position is just not going to be filled by a quality NBA player with fire in his belly, well maybe Kevin could be our Courtney Lee or Jeff Green. The one extra vet/gun who fills a hole and let's you fly. You would be giving up on the idea of having a backcourt defender, this year at least. But the overall backcourt depth would be some of the best in the league, and Collison/Beli turn into sort of that bench mob pairing.
Cuz 25
Rudy 20
Kevin 15
Rondo 8
WCS 6
Belinelli 12
Collison 10
Koufos 7-8
Omri 7-8
Acy
Butler
Anderson
Moreland
Curry
it would be enough. If Rondo is back to playing defense it would be enough. We'd have solid defensive PGs, strong defensive bigs. We would have a decided defensive hole at the wing, but otherwise that's pretty complete. I would just assume plug an active and engaged and defensive minded Ben in there at 12ppg in place of Kevin, but I'm not going to sit around squelching the best team we have had in a decade's chance while waiting on it. If you win, midlevel FAs will come. You don't have to operate on a scarcity model anymore. Basically if Kevin ages out and you are a 50 win team as he declines, you will have plenty of shots to replace that level player in future free agency.
Here's another name BTW: Jared Sullinger. With Lee's arrival in Boston, Sullinger might be on the outs there. And he ALMOST represents a second scoring big with stretch possibilities too (although when you look at the numbers, he's a sub-30% 3pt shooter maybe just shooting them because coaches nowadays are stupid). Lousy defender, but then again I always figured our stretch guy might be, let the other 3 longer guys defend.
But anyway, the thing is that Ben is weak. Nice kid. But weak. His game is limited, but its his inherent timidity that is often the issue. And surprisingly after having seen the team a few times that is looking to me to be more of an issue than I thought it would be. We are going to need a third scorer in that starting lineup, a real one, because we have 2 true roleplayers there who aren't at all, and Cuz and Rudy can't take every shot without spacing help. And Marco seems a good bench fit. I had thought with all the vets that Ben was gravy, but right now its looking like once again we need him to be things he has not shown himself to be. I was hoping maybe Butler could fill that gap, but he might be done. Anderson is just a highly highly mediocre player. Almost like one of those randomly generated fill in players completely average at everything that computer games generate if you are short a player. If you are starting him its a bad sign that you are giving up. The thing we have not seen yet that I was anticipating might buy us 10-15 min a game is Rondo/Collison together in the backcourt -- I was hoping we might only need 36 min of quality SG play because we were going to cheat with 2 PGs for stretches.. But so far that hasn't been out there.
I think I pioneered the Ben for Kevin idea last year. The summer FA haul would have made that less on my mind then it was previously, but it still sits there. It does feel like closing a door. But then again, if the move took us from a 40 win team with a positional./spacing hole and made us a 48 win playoff team with enough spacing/scoring/guard play...maybe its opening a long closed door instead. Of course ironically its Kevin's own mentality, his softness and lack of attention to defense, that keeps him as impactless as any 20pt scorer is ever likely to be. But we don't need an impact guy per say. We need a real shooter, which Kevin is, who can cut/play off the ball, which Kevin can, and who demands teams guard him and tight, which Kevin does. He can score 15ppg in his sleep. In fact only 1 year has he never not, when he averaged 14ppg as an impactless 6th man for OKC. he still averaged 20ppg last season, when available. He's not wildly efficient anymore, but still acceptable. And if the position is just not going to be filled by a quality NBA player with fire in his belly, well maybe Kevin could be our Courtney Lee or Jeff Green. The one extra vet/gun who fills a hole and let's you fly. You would be giving up on the idea of having a backcourt defender, this year at least. But the overall backcourt depth would be some of the best in the league, and Collison/Beli turn into sort of that bench mob pairing.
Cuz 25
Rudy 20
Kevin 15
Rondo 8
WCS 6
Belinelli 12
Collison 10
Koufos 7-8
Omri 7-8
Acy
Butler
Anderson
Moreland
Curry
it would be enough. If Rondo is back to playing defense it would be enough. We'd have solid defensive PGs, strong defensive bigs. We would have a decided defensive hole at the wing, but otherwise that's pretty complete. I would just assume plug an active and engaged and defensive minded Ben in there at 12ppg in place of Kevin, but I'm not going to sit around squelching the best team we have had in a decade's chance while waiting on it. If you win, midlevel FAs will come. You don't have to operate on a scarcity model anymore. Basically if Kevin ages out and you are a 50 win team as he declines, you will have plenty of shots to replace that level player in future free agency.
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K
Otto Porter was a monster in last years playoffs and looks like a excellent SF this preseason, Len looked great starting before all the injuries and I have not really followed KCP much tbh. I think if we could trade Ben for a Archie Goodwin/Tony Wrotten, Shabazz (Twolfs) I would be for it not sure about KMart.
Now see, that's what I wouldn't do. Dumping Ben for other equally unproven pieces. Who knows, maybe it works out, but that's no guaranteed win. If we were to ever move on from Ben, I would be moving on to something stable and proven that can end the gaping SG hole we've had and further swing us into win now mode. As unproven kids go though, Ben still has as much potential as most of the other shrugs at the position, and in particular the possibility of defense and shooting, which we need more than other skills right now.
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No not at all. When I say "this board" I mean the majority voice. Never do I intend to make myself seem above lol. Sometimes I even include myself when I say "this board", but not this time because I believe in Ben. I'm a Benliever! I just want us to wait a while before we start sending him for guys like Martin. His value is higher imo.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but i think our conclusions differ. I think when we have a talented young player in the middle of his rookie deal, we shouldn't ship him because he's not as good as we want him to be yet. It's showing absolutely 0 in this team in regards to the draft. 2012, we shipped T-Rob less than 45 games into his rookie season. In 2014, we ship Stauskas after his first year. Now we're looking at our 2013 1st rounder.
If we trade him, it becomes disheartening.
No draft prospects will EVER want to be drafted by us in the future. It shows an unwillingness to develop players and it shows that we give up on them.
We already had 3-4 guys in the top 10 declining a workout with us this year.... Who says that won't continue?
Nik went through 3 HCs in his rookie year and was immediately shipped out for cap room... I don't disagree with the move, but that sends a certain message to any potential drsfted players.
If we trade him, it becomes disheartening.
No draft prospects will EVER want to be drafted by us in the future. It shows an unwillingness to develop players and it shows that we give up on them.
We already had 3-4 guys in the top 10 declining a workout with us this year.... Who says that won't continue?
Nik went through 3 HCs in his rookie year and was immediately shipped out for cap room... I don't disagree with the move, but that sends a certain message to any potential drsfted players.
I have no problem with you being a Benliever. I do, however, have a problem with your assessment of Kevin Martin. Ben's POTENTIAL may be higher but there is no way right now you can convince me he's a better player today than Kev is. Martin has proven people wrong (some of them even on this board) his entire career.
So you're a Benliever and I'm a Martin maniac.
So you're a Benliever and I'm a Martin maniac.
I don't view it the way you do, so you're right we arrive to different conclusions. I think we are focused now on winning and rookies/younger players are generally not as productive or important as the vets, unless they are a high level player (Durants, Kobes, etc). I think we are in need of a SG that allows us to win now, and for all of Martin's deficiencies, the man is a great shooter and can create for himself when needed. If we were a developing team, I would not be as hard on Ben as I am now. In fact, I wasn't this critical of him last season because we were a developing team. However, this off-season we threw developing out the window and went into full vet mode. I won't say much more because I have already said a lot about Ben and contrary to the things I say about him on the court, I think off the court he is a good kid. At this point in time, we simply need more from the SG position. The only differences between myself and others is I don't think Ben can provide us with what we need (currently). Are we willing to live with that? You could also make the case to wait for Martin until next year when he is a free agent and then maybe have the both of them!
The only message it sends is you better be competent.
We dropped Jimmer, TRob and Nik, and the problem there wasn't us dropping them, it was us drafting them. Jimmer is just about out of the league, TRob has bounced around it like a pinball, and Nik...well I still am going to say Nik might be able to be a roleplayer, but his complete collapse last season was certainly far from encouraging. If we draft Kawhi instead of Jimmer, Drummond instead of TRob, and Payton instead of Nik, I'm guessing those guys are all still here being "developed".
A guy being young means little. You don't double down on draft busts. The key to handling them is just not to draft them in the first place.
Ben's an inbetween case, although maybe only because we've seen worse. WCS looks like he could be the best since the cousins draft.
We dropped Jimmer, TRob and Nik, and the problem there wasn't us dropping them, it was us drafting them. Jimmer is just about out of the league, TRob has bounced around it like a pinball, and Nik...well I still am going to say Nik might be able to be a roleplayer, but his complete collapse last season was certainly far from encouraging. If we draft Kawhi instead of Jimmer, Drummond instead of TRob, and Payton instead of Nik, I'm guessing those guys are all still here being "developed".
A guy being young means little. You don't double down on draft busts. The key to handling them is just not to draft them in the first place.
Ben's an inbetween case, although maybe only because we've seen worse. WCS looks like he could be the best since the cousins draft.