[Grades] Grades v. Knicks 12/9/2016
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Well, I think you can and should do both. I don't believe in living in the past, but that you can learn from it. I do believe in enjoying the present, because like it or not, that's where you always live. But you should also have an eye on the future if you intend to have any say in the outcome.. As someone once told me. Life is like being on a bus, You can either be a passenger or you can be the driver. Only one of the people on that bus knows where he's going. I get your point though, and don't blame you for feeling that way.
It's been an experience reading the above posts this morning. I just sighed and thought I'm going to the game on Monday and I spect to enjoy it. It would be more fun to watch a happier bunch of players and their coaches. And just think, our bunch of guys are now in Salt Lake City and have to play, joyously or not, tonight. It's a tough life.
I agree with the majority of your post, but I wanted to single this part out...
Keeping those players, how would you expect us to get the starters you speak of? Maybe Richardson, Bogdanovic, Cauley-Stein, & Labissiere become good enough one day to start, and if we keep our 1st this year perhaps we get 2 more shots at a starter with our 2017 1st & 2018 1st, but I guess my point is why would we want to hold on to guys like Collison, Casspi, & Koufos? Yes they are good back-up players, but it's not impossible to sign these players (considering we signed all 3 of them during a time when our team was dreadful). Wouldn't it make more sense to try and move them for more youth in an attempt to increase our odds at landing those starters you speak of? I think it would. Even if they don't develop into the starters we're in search of, they may still become the caliber of a Collison or Casspi or Koufos.
That's why I recommended moving Gay, Collison, & Koufos for Rondo (waive), Denzel Valentine, Bobby Portis, Jerian Grant, & Chicago's 2017 1st (lottery protected) and then turning around and flipping Casspi for Delon Wright. That leaves us with Temple being the only veteran locked up past the 2017-18 season (lots of cap flexibility moving forward). I don't think I'd trade Temple either. I'd want that type of teammate & hard worker around my young guys. Having a guy like that in our young players ears and helping them teach what it is to be a team would be very valuable. Same with Tolliver. I'd probably guarantee his contract next year so it would give our young guys another great veteran teammate to model themselves after. With that same thinking in mind, I'd probably waive Barnes even if he picks up his player option. I wouldn't want that type of personality around my young guys.
Going into next season, we'd have this team:
PG - Jerian Grant / Delon Wright
SG - Malachi Richardson / Garrett Temple
SF - Bogdan Bogdanovic / Denzel Valentine
PF - Bobby Portis / Skal Labissiere / Anthony Tolliver
C - DeMarcus Cousins / Willie Cauley-Stein / Georgios Papagiannis
***SAC 2017 1st***
***CHI 2017 1st***
Now that would be a team that could have the ability to go somewhere depending on who we take with our two 2017 1sts (and our 2018 1st as I expect that will probably be another high pick considering the roster above) and how we develop our young guys. Grant & Wright probably don't have a ceiling of a high level starting PG, but I can definitely see them as 3&D PGs in this league. Richardson can be a 3&D SG. Bogdanovic could be a sixth man type player in a Ginobli mold. Valetine could be a nice utility player in that he can do a little of everything. Sort of like Igoudala with a better shot, but worse athleticism & defense. Portis can be a decent stretch big who can score in multiple ways while holding his own on the boards. Labissiere has a very high ceiling and could end up being a go-to scorer type talent or a Ibaka type player. Cauley-Stein could end up being one of the best defensive players in the league while being a consistent lob threat & mid range jump shooter. Papagiannis could be Koufos w/ a better post game, a jump shot, & more size.
Obviously these are all "coulds," but you only need to hit on a few to have something special. Then obviously a high pick this year had the ability to yield a star player. Ball, Isaac, Fox, Tatum, & Ntilikina could all be options and then you still have the Chicago 2017 pick and next year's 2018 pic (which will likely be another lottery pick).
Keeping those players, how would you expect us to get the starters you speak of? Maybe Richardson, Bogdanovic, Cauley-Stein, & Labissiere become good enough one day to start, and if we keep our 1st this year perhaps we get 2 more shots at a starter with our 2017 1st & 2018 1st, but I guess my point is why would we want to hold on to guys like Collison, Casspi, & Koufos? Yes they are good back-up players, but it's not impossible to sign these players (considering we signed all 3 of them during a time when our team was dreadful). Wouldn't it make more sense to try and move them for more youth in an attempt to increase our odds at landing those starters you speak of? I think it would. Even if they don't develop into the starters we're in search of, they may still become the caliber of a Collison or Casspi or Koufos.
That's why I recommended moving Gay, Collison, & Koufos for Rondo (waive), Denzel Valentine, Bobby Portis, Jerian Grant, & Chicago's 2017 1st (lottery protected) and then turning around and flipping Casspi for Delon Wright. That leaves us with Temple being the only veteran locked up past the 2017-18 season (lots of cap flexibility moving forward). I don't think I'd trade Temple either. I'd want that type of teammate & hard worker around my young guys. Having a guy like that in our young players ears and helping them teach what it is to be a team would be very valuable. Same with Tolliver. I'd probably guarantee his contract next year so it would give our young guys another great veteran teammate to model themselves after. With that same thinking in mind, I'd probably waive Barnes even if he picks up his player option. I wouldn't want that type of personality around my young guys.
Going into next season, we'd have this team:
PG - Jerian Grant / Delon Wright
SG - Malachi Richardson / Garrett Temple
SF - Bogdan Bogdanovic / Denzel Valentine
PF - Bobby Portis / Skal Labissiere / Anthony Tolliver
C - DeMarcus Cousins / Willie Cauley-Stein / Georgios Papagiannis
***SAC 2017 1st***
***CHI 2017 1st***
Now that would be a team that could have the ability to go somewhere depending on who we take with our two 2017 1sts (and our 2018 1st as I expect that will probably be another high pick considering the roster above) and how we develop our young guys. Grant & Wright probably don't have a ceiling of a high level starting PG, but I can definitely see them as 3&D PGs in this league. Richardson can be a 3&D SG. Bogdanovic could be a sixth man type player in a Ginobli mold. Valetine could be a nice utility player in that he can do a little of everything. Sort of like Igoudala with a better shot, but worse athleticism & defense. Portis can be a decent stretch big who can score in multiple ways while holding his own on the boards. Labissiere has a very high ceiling and could end up being a go-to scorer type talent or a Ibaka type player. Cauley-Stein could end up being one of the best defensive players in the league while being a consistent lob threat & mid range jump shooter. Papagiannis could be Koufos w/ a better post game, a jump shot, & more size.
Obviously these are all "coulds," but you only need to hit on a few to have something special. Then obviously a high pick this year had the ability to yield a star player. Ball, Isaac, Fox, Tatum, & Ntilikina could all be options and then you still have the Chicago 2017 pick and next year's 2018 pic (which will likely be another lottery pick).
My philosophy is different...
You have your point of view which is great, but i'm a man of reality and practicalism...
Do you think that every year grow a player, that as a rotational player, with 27mpg of playing time,
gives you the following (in 2016):
1)12PPG
2)48%FG
3)41%3PT
4)5.1DRB for his minutes - which is better per minute than Durrant and Lebron
5)+/- = +8, as a rotational player in a losing side - while the starting lineup team member which he replaces is doing -82
First, It's weird that this kind of player make pennies in comparance to much weaker players(in the solid practical world and not in the imagination)
Second, this team has this player in hand(not as a prospect) - so it should use his abbilities in creating great numbers for it benefit(based of 2016)
The team does not use wisely it great resources...
Casspi is a role player. Role players have the ability to be more efficient because they take more uncontested shots/easier shots since defenses focus on stopping players like Cousins & Gay. Casspi is not a guy you build around. He's brought in to complement the talent you do have.
If you were a man of reality, you would have made this deduction already...
If you were a man of reality, you would have made this deduction already...
Everything you said is very nice - but you don't see the broad picture friend.
Role player don't make +8 while your first team player make -82(it's mostly the other way around)
I prefer to see plays for Casspi(41%3pt last year), which is a great slasher as well...
And as replacement to Rudy to get another star in another position, that will be our second star beside Boogie
and would get more focus than Casspi, while Casspi will be starting Sf and Temple our Shumpert will be his replacement...
We are not going anywehere if our second quality star score 17 with 45%PG and 34%3PT, no assists and an average defense...
we need something better if we want to reach for the playoffs.
That's the reality - Boogie alone won't be enough.
Yeah, I know he can be frustrating and he played horrible last night, but if you don't think he's had a role in our "hard fought" wins, then you have selective memory. Toronto twice, and Minnesota. There you go. I won't mention any of our other wins because by your definition the others are all pretty much blowouts or easy wins.
The fact that you think these stats make Casspi no longer a role player is beyond me. It really tells me you have no idea how to use on/off stats correctly. If anything, it has more to say about Gay's play & effort last year and the way Karl was using him.
By the way, I don't know why you're saying Gay was at a -82 in on/off last year because that is grossly incorrect. He was +2.0 which isn't great, but the team did better with him on the floor. How do you explain Gay who is at +11.9 this year? Or how do you explain Gay's 1.98 RPM (which is a much better stat at measuring a player's impact than on/off) which is 38th in the league?
The fact of the matter is you don't know how to use the stats in front of you, and judging by your comments, you don't understand how the game of basketball works. If you had 5 Casspi's on a team, that team would struggle to score because you have nobody who can break down the defense. That's the point you're missing.
Plays in that we get him open for a spot up 3pter? Sure. Plays as in putting the ball in his hands and asking for him to break down a defense? Hell no.
You're not going to get a star for Gay. Gay is a fringe all-star in his own right, and team's don't trade their starts for expiring contracts. I don't think you understand how trade value works in the NBA.
Who are you describing here because it doesn't match what Gay has done in the past or this season. Gay shot 46% from the floor last year (not 45%). I also think it's odd that you continue to cherry pick last year's numbers when Karl misused Gay the most out of any coach in Sacramento. Looking at Gay's entire time in Sacramento gives us a better idea what type of player he is.
Gay's per36 stats as a King are below:
.553 TS% / .465 FG% / .342 3PT% / .831 FT% / 20.1 PPG / 6.3 RPG / 2.9 APG / 1.3 SPG / 0.7 BPG / 2.6 TOPG
Gay's per36 stats as a King with the Karl season removed are below:
.560 TS% / .465 FG% / .341 3PT% / .848 FT% / 21.1 PPG / 6.0 RPG / 3.5 APG / 1.2 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 2.9 TOPG
As you can see, your "no assists" comment is pretty silly as he has been at 2.9 per 36 minutes whereas Casspi has been at 2.2 in his second stint with the Kings. Gay's also had a better Ast/TO ratio than Casspi as well.
The fact that your focusing on FG% and not TS% is concerning. Gay has had a 55%+ TS%. The league average is 54%. The fact that he is shooting the ball at a high volume and is still above average from an efficiency standpoint is good. He's an efficient scorer.
As for the defense, Gay has played really well on that side of the floor this year. Opposing teams score 4.7 less points when Gay is on the floor, and his DRPM is 0.90 which is 13th among SFs and 78th in the league.
Granted he didn't do too well last year on that side of the floor. So what's the difference this year? I would think a coach that preaches defense vs. one that preaches run & gun and pace.
By the way, I don't know why you're saying Gay was at a -82 in on/off last year because that is grossly incorrect. He was +2.0 which isn't great, but the team did better with him on the floor. How do you explain Gay who is at +11.9 this year? Or how do you explain Gay's 1.98 RPM (which is a much better stat at measuring a player's impact than on/off) which is 38th in the league?
The fact of the matter is you don't know how to use the stats in front of you, and judging by your comments, you don't understand how the game of basketball works. If you had 5 Casspi's on a team, that team would struggle to score because you have nobody who can break down the defense. That's the point you're missing.
Plays in that we get him open for a spot up 3pter? Sure. Plays as in putting the ball in his hands and asking for him to break down a defense? Hell no.
You're not going to get a star for Gay. Gay is a fringe all-star in his own right, and team's don't trade their starts for expiring contracts. I don't think you understand how trade value works in the NBA.
Who are you describing here because it doesn't match what Gay has done in the past or this season. Gay shot 46% from the floor last year (not 45%). I also think it's odd that you continue to cherry pick last year's numbers when Karl misused Gay the most out of any coach in Sacramento. Looking at Gay's entire time in Sacramento gives us a better idea what type of player he is.
Gay's per36 stats as a King are below:
.553 TS% / .465 FG% / .342 3PT% / .831 FT% / 20.1 PPG / 6.3 RPG / 2.9 APG / 1.3 SPG / 0.7 BPG / 2.6 TOPG
Gay's per36 stats as a King with the Karl season removed are below:
.560 TS% / .465 FG% / .341 3PT% / .848 FT% / 21.1 PPG / 6.0 RPG / 3.5 APG / 1.2 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 2.9 TOPG
As you can see, your "no assists" comment is pretty silly as he has been at 2.9 per 36 minutes whereas Casspi has been at 2.2 in his second stint with the Kings. Gay's also had a better Ast/TO ratio than Casspi as well.
The fact that your focusing on FG% and not TS% is concerning. Gay has had a 55%+ TS%. The league average is 54%. The fact that he is shooting the ball at a high volume and is still above average from an efficiency standpoint is good. He's an efficient scorer.
As for the defense, Gay has played really well on that side of the floor this year. Opposing teams score 4.7 less points when Gay is on the floor, and his DRPM is 0.90 which is 13th among SFs and 78th in the league.
Granted he didn't do too well last year on that side of the floor. So what's the difference this year? I would think a coach that preaches defense vs. one that preaches run & gun and pace.
As much as we suck its the Wolves I cant understand. Young sure, but they have so much perceived talent and a hot shot billion dollar coach. They are 6 and 17 third worst record right now looking at another high draft pick.
Anyways there are a lot of teams that are seriously underachieving this year so I recon frustration is running high with lots of fans.
Anyways there are a lot of teams that are seriously underachieving this year so I recon frustration is running high with lots of fans.
The point of my post was to show how little talent we have on our team, and I'm referring to upper level talent. We don't have a legit starter at the PF position, the SG position, and one could make an argument that we don't have one at the PG position. Therefore why should we think we can make the playoffs, and even is we do, so what, we're not going anywhere. I wasn't offering any solutions, which you went to great trouble to do, and It's appreciated. However the team your putting on the floor, while probably better than the current team, isn't a championship team either, unless one of those young players turns out to be a star, and that's a possibility.
We need a couple of stars to put next to Cousins, and we need an unselfish attitude, where no one cares who scores the ball. But hey, sometimes the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. You never know for sure how good a team can be when they all click and have chemistry.
We need a couple of stars to put next to Cousins, and we need an unselfish attitude, where no one cares who scores the ball. But hey, sometimes the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. You never know for sure how good a team can be when they all click and have chemistry.
I agree that we need a couple stars. Out of all of those young guys, I would say Labissiere has the potential to be a star. Grant, Wright, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Valentine, Portis, Cauley-Stein, & Papagiannis don't strike me as "star" type talent but perhaps I'm wrong. That leaves our 2017 1st as another great opportunity to add a star, and depending on who we would take with ththe Chicago pick, that might be another guy with star potential as well.
I do disagree with the fact the you think the team I made is the better than the current team. There are a lot of young players on that team. It might take some time for them to develop and gel. Keeping that in mind, that could give us yet another opportunity to draft a star in 2018 since we'd likely be in the lottery again.
This leaves Cousins, Labissiere, SAC 2017 1st, CHI 2017 1st, & SAC 2018 1st as the possible stars of this team going forward.
What I did not mention was that I'd almost try and avoid picking up a star potential player at PG for the next two years in the draft. Obviously, if you think a PG available gives you the best shot by far, draft him. But humor me for a moment and let's just play through the hypothetical. Let's say with our 2017 pick we grab Jonathan Isaac and with Chicagos 2017 1st we grab Juwan Evans. Then in 2018 we grab another top wing prospect that has star potential. At this point, we'd have Evans, Grant, Wright, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Valentine, Isaac, Labissiere, Portis, Cauley-Stein, Papagiannis, Cousins, & 2018 SAC 1st. We'd go through the 2018 season hoping to some cohesiveness and some of our young guys begin to step up. Then in the summer of 2019, both Wall and Bledsoe are unrestricted free agents.
If some of our young guys look like they are coming to fruition in 2018, the culture appears to be changed and the drama is gone, then I think Cousins has a legit chance at recruiting one of his best friends to come and be the star PG. We could be looking at a team like this in a few seasons:
PG- John Wall / Juwan Evans / Jerian Grant / Delon Wright
SG - Malachi Richardson / Bogdan Bogdanovic
SF - Jonathan Isaac / Denzel Valentine
PF - Skal Labissiere / Bobby Portis
C - DeMarcus Cousins / Willie Cauley-Stein / Georgios Papagiannis
***2018 SAC 1st***
Now that's a team that COULD be a contender one day.
I do disagree with the fact the you think the team I made is the better than the current team. There are a lot of young players on that team. It might take some time for them to develop and gel. Keeping that in mind, that could give us yet another opportunity to draft a star in 2018 since we'd likely be in the lottery again.
This leaves Cousins, Labissiere, SAC 2017 1st, CHI 2017 1st, & SAC 2018 1st as the possible stars of this team going forward.
What I did not mention was that I'd almost try and avoid picking up a star potential player at PG for the next two years in the draft. Obviously, if you think a PG available gives you the best shot by far, draft him. But humor me for a moment and let's just play through the hypothetical. Let's say with our 2017 pick we grab Jonathan Isaac and with Chicagos 2017 1st we grab Juwan Evans. Then in 2018 we grab another top wing prospect that has star potential. At this point, we'd have Evans, Grant, Wright, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Valentine, Isaac, Labissiere, Portis, Cauley-Stein, Papagiannis, Cousins, & 2018 SAC 1st. We'd go through the 2018 season hoping to some cohesiveness and some of our young guys begin to step up. Then in the summer of 2019, both Wall and Bledsoe are unrestricted free agents.
If some of our young guys look like they are coming to fruition in 2018, the culture appears to be changed and the drama is gone, then I think Cousins has a legit chance at recruiting one of his best friends to come and be the star PG. We could be looking at a team like this in a few seasons:
PG- John Wall / Juwan Evans / Jerian Grant / Delon Wright
SG - Malachi Richardson / Bogdan Bogdanovic
SF - Jonathan Isaac / Denzel Valentine
PF - Skal Labissiere / Bobby Portis
C - DeMarcus Cousins / Willie Cauley-Stein / Georgios Papagiannis
***2018 SAC 1st***
Now that's a team that COULD be a contender one day.
EVERYONE ON THE TEAM IS TRADABLE - this last draft was a farce and so was the off-season free agency and you're seeing the fallout. The team regressed from last season with Rondo. Keeping Rondo may not have been the answer, but it would've been better than this uncompetitive crud. This team may not make it past 25 wins. Maybe they can combine the Timberwolves and Kings roster and make a joint city team - the TimberKings who might, just might be .500.