DeMarcus Cousins: 'I still don’t feel I get the respect I deserve'

#31
Mostly you would just learn from it that human beings as a species are stupid, bigoted, and illogical. They like easy narratives, they bandwagon, they subconsciously bend whatever little facts penetrate their hazy minds to fit whatever agenda the cool kids are pitching at the moment. And then poof!, it can all turn on a dime. Just one event or one stint that makes it cool to suddenly respect or disrespect a guy, and everybody piles on and swings their prejudices back around the other way.
you speak for yourself.
 
#33
He said, she said. If this was politics, Brick would be one extreme and you the other. Both giving the occasional platitudes in an attempt to be objective. And the irony is (possible misuse of that word) you both have solid cases. He IS one of the best centers in the game AND his career up to this point has been in one of the worst run NBA (not sure I would go as far as pro sports) organizations. And by HIS demeanor and actions ON the court HE hasn't done himself or the team any favors.

IF the organization has truly stabilized then it will be up to HIM to reflect that on the court. IF both are up to the task, and I think he will be, I think they can have a good season next year.

And in no way am I claiming to be objective.
Its not a matter of extremes, its right vs. wrong. I am right. He's wrong. :D I think Boogie is an AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME talent. We agree on that. His hand eye coordination, his agility for a man his size, his feathery shooting touch and range, his anticipation to draw charges are exemplary. They ARE Hall of Fame worthy. He's incredible!!! I have said that from Day One when I said the ONLY thing preventing him from stardom was physical conditioning because ALL of the tools are there. But what has held him back individually and by extension held back the team (and try to separate the two is ridiculous which is what Brick has tried to do) is chronic immaturity and temper issues which have manifested in the following ways:

- suboptimal conditioning
- relationship with refs
- relationship with teammates
- leadership
- poise under pressure

There is also HOLE in his mostly complete and dynamic game. The hole is low post efficiency and go-to low post move. He lacks vertical lift and high release point on his post moves. He is a POWER player. Not a guy you can dump the ball and get a high percentage shot and look for someone else. Granted they are NOT many players like this left anymore, but guys like Marc Gasol, Greg Monroe and even Enes Kanter have more low post arsenal than Boogie. It is NOT who he is.

Remember his idol is Carmelo Anthony! Melo is a blend of inside and outside, face-up AND back-to-the basket. He is a POWER player with WING skills. This is Boogie. And this is my contention. This is NOT a matter of extremes! It is ACCURATE analysis compared to flawed analysis and wanting to fit a square peg into a round hole, wanting to compare Boogie to Patrick Ewing. o_O

When and if (BIG IF!) the Kings win 45-50 games and go to the playoffs with Boogie leading the charge, the individual benchmarks I have set for him over the last 3-4 years that he has FAILED to meet, WILL be met.

Specifically:

- 55% TS or better
- 1.0 assist to turnover ratio or better
- consistent defensive

Regards to last point, this will be reflected quantitatively in lower foul rate, less technical fouls with refs, meaning he is not relying on the whistle and instead moving his FEET defensively instead of trying to defend with his hands. A player who plays this way gets more of the borderline calls or non-calls.

Then when and IF (BIG IF!) the Kings start to win the PRO-Cousins contingency will say "LOOK I TOLD YOU ALL ALONG OF HIS GREATNESS...HE JUST NEEDED A BETTER CAST AROUND HIM!!!" And I will say "NO, the first and foremost reason the Kings are winning is because Boogie made the aforementioned improvements in his game, which thereby justify the high usage rate and franchise tag. When you can trust him with 30%+ of possessions to be slightly or better than average related to passing and shooting AND defending regardless whether his shot is on OR off then (and only then) do you have a player you can win with.

In six arduous years we have yet to witness this player.
 
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#35
Its not a matter of extremes, its right vs. wrong. I am right. He's wrong. :D I think Boogie is an AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME talent. We agree on that. His hand eye coordination, his agility for a man his size, his feathery shooting touch and range, his anticipation to draw charges are exemplary. They ARE Hall of Fame worthy. He's incredible!!! I have said that from Day One when I said the ONLY thing preventing him from stardom was physical conditioning because ALL of the tools are there. But what has held him back individually and by extension held back the team (and try to separate the two is ridiculous which is what Brick has tried to do) is chronic immaturity and temper issues which have manifested in the following ways:

- suboptimal conditioning
- relationship with refs
- relationship with teammates
- leadership
- poise under pressure

There is also HOLE in his mostly complete and dynamic game. The hole is low post efficiency and go-to low post move. He lacks vertical lift and high release point on his post moves. He is a POWER player. Not a guy you can dump the ball and get a high percentage shot and look for someone else. Granted they are NOT many players like this left anymore, but guys like Marc Gasol, Greg Monroe and even Enes Kanter have more low post arsenal than Boogie. It is NOT who he is.

Remember his idol is Carmelo Anthony! Melo is a blend of inside and outside, face-up AND back-to-the basket. He is a POWER player with WING skills. This is Boogie. And this is my contention. This is NOT a matter of extremes! It is ACCURATE analysis compared to flawed analysis and wanting to fit a square peg into a round hole, wanting to compare Boogie to Patrick Ewing. o_O

When and if (BIG IF!) the Kings win 45-50 games and go to the playoffs with Boogie leading the charge, the individual benchmarks I have set for him over the last 3-4 years that he has FAILED to meet, WILL be met.

Specifically:

- 55% TS or better
- 1.0 assist to turnover ratio or better
- consistent defensive

Regards to last point, this will be reflected quantitatively in lower foul rate, less technical fouls with refs, meaning he is not relying on the whistle and instead moving his FEET defensively instead of trying to defend with his hands. A player who plays this way gets more of the borderline calls or non-calls.

Then when and IF (BIG IF!) the Kings start to win the PRO-Cousins contingency will say "LOOK I TOLD YOU ALL ALONG OF HIS GREATNESS...HE JUST NEEDED A BETTER CAST AROUND HIM!!!" And I will say "NO, the first and foremost reason the Kings are winning is because Boogie made the aforementioned improvements in his game, which thereby justify the high usage rate and franchise tag. When you can trust him with 30%+ of possessions to be slightly or better than average related to passing and shooting AND defending regardless whether his shot is on OR off then (and only then) do you have a player you can win with.

In six arduous years we have yet to witness this player.
He said, she said. What came first? The chicken or the egg. If it happens, both sides can go jump in the lake, cause I simply will be glad the Kings are winning and won't give a damn who is taking the credit that they don't deserve.
 
#36
When and if (BIG IF!) the Kings win 45-50 games and go to the playoffs with Boogie leading the charge, the individual benchmarks I have set for him over the last 3-4 years that he has FAILED to meet, WILL be met.

Specifically:

- 55% TS or better
- 1.0 assist to turnover ratio or better
- consistent defensive
Excuse me, but who the hell are you to be setting individual benchmarks for Demarcus?
He doesn't require your approval or arbitrary goals to be met.
Reality shows he is a dominant player, regardless of your obsessive personal bias.

BTW - go check out his stats during the ONLY period of time in Demarcus entire career where he was in a position to win for his coach and owner (coincidentally the only time when the TEAM was winning at a playoff pace (high seed)): http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01/gamelog/2015/

The good news is - you'll get your opportunity to judge Demarcus coming up this year, because for the first time since the first 15 games of 2014, the franchise, coach, and players should be in synch and want to win at the same time.
 
#37
To this whole @Bricklayer and @Blob discussion, they both are right to a certain degree.

Would the team be better if Cousins had a 1.0 assist to turnover ratio, 55% TS% , consistent defense, less technicals, etc.? Of course the team would be better.
Would the team be better if for the first time in Cousins career he had a competent coach, good teammates, AND teammates that complement his skillset? Of course the team would be better.

There's really not a wrong answer.

I think many people here take exception to putting ALL or MOST of the blame on Cousins when he's easily the best player on this team while improving the rest of the team and coach is something that should have been straightforward and accomplished years ago.

Sure Cousins could improve in all of those things and make our team better, but let's not confuse that with Cousins is the REASON why our team is so bad because that is incorrect. You could say that LeBron could make his team better if he shot the ball like Curry but sometimes the player you have is the player you have. Even with his shortcomings, he's still a player you can put a winner around. Now how much winning will happen will depend on Cousins ability to carry us, but someone with Cousins ability RIGHT NOW has the ability to lead a team to 45-50 wins if surrounded by the right talent. If we want to be a challenger or elite team, Cousins is going to need to take his game to the next level.

Again, both ways will make us a better team. Just don't confuse "Cousins needs to improve to make us better" with "Cousins is the reason we are a bad team" and we are in agreement.
 
#38
Excuse me, but who the hell are you to be setting individual benchmarks for Demarcus?
He doesn't require your approval or arbitrary goals to be met.
Reality shows he is a dominant player, regardless of your obsessive personal bias.

BTW - go check out his stats during the ONLY period of time in Demarcus entire career where he was in a position to win for his coach and owner (coincidentally the only time when the TEAM was winning at a playoff pace (high seed)): http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01/gamelog/2015/

The good news is - you'll get your opportunity to judge Demarcus coming up this year, because for the first time since the first 15 games of 2014, the franchise, coach, and players should be in synch and want to win at the same time.
During that 15 game stretch with Malone, these were Cousins per36 numbers:

.586 TS% / .512 FG% / .806 FT% / 26.4 PPG / 14.2 RPG / 2.7 APG / 1.3 SPG / 1.7 BPG / 4.1 TOPG

That's elite right there. If he could hit the 1:1 Assist to Turnover ratio, that's just gravy. We saw this under a very similar coach with worse talent. Let's see how focused and driven he and the rest of the team are this year. I'm excited!
 
#39
To this whole @Bricklayer and @Blob discussion, they both are right to a certain degree.

Would the team be better if Cousins had a 1.0 assist to turnover ratio, 55% TS% , consistent defense, less technicals, etc.? Of course the team would be better.
Would the team be better if for the first time in Cousins career he had a competent coach, good teammates, AND teammates that complement his skillset? Of course the team would be better.

There's really not a wrong answer.

I think many people here take exception to putting ALL or MOST of the blame on Cousins when he's easily the best player on this team while improving the rest of the team and coach is something that should have been straightforward and accomplished years ago.

Sure Cousins could improve in all of those things and make our team better, but let's not confuse that with Cousins is the REASON why our team is so bad because that is incorrect. You could say that LeBron could make his team better if he shot the ball like Curry but sometimes the player you have is the player you have. Even with his shortcomings, he's still a player you can put a winner around. Now how much winning will happen will depend on Cousins ability to carry us, but someone with Cousins ability RIGHT NOW has the ability to lead a team to 45-50 wins if surrounded by the right talent. If we want to be a challenger or elite team, Cousins is going to need to take his game to the next level.

Again, both ways will make us a better team. Just don't confuse "Cousins needs to improve to make us better" with "Cousins is the reason we are a bad team" and we are in agreement.
The debate is more subtle and nuanced than that. My contention is if Boogie continues to play at the same level, related to offensive efficiency (53.5% TS and 0.7 assist to turnover), sporadic defensive effort, and WILD variance from good games to bad games, replete with techs and ejections, the Kings can NOT win at a high level.

Too many possessions will be used up for even a superior supporting cast with better defenders and more production at the SG to compensate for a team led by a guy incapable of being trustworthy and consistent and offering next to zero leadership. The alternate point of view is that none of the sub 30 win seasons and recent failed campaigned can or should be laid at the feet of Boogie and he is IMMUNE from criticism or blame. Both point of views cannot be correct, neither in retrospect or prospectively.

If the Kings are going to win it is going to be because Boogie becomes a better player. And the reason that has to happen is because he is the focal point of the team and because his usage rate is so HIGH. If his usage rate were set to come down, say with the addition of second or third star, then he wouldn't have to get any better, and the team could absorb his outbursts and wild swings in play because other stars would be around to pick up the slack. We don't have that luxury.

The other point of contention is to properly use Boogie we need to feed him in the post 15-20 times per game where he belongs because Second Coming of Hakeem or whatever. And when a coach with half of a brain does we are going to magically transform from sad sacks into playoff contenders. Those fans expecting the latter if and when we start running more post offense are in for a rude awakening.

So there is little to NO merit to the argument from my perspective that once we upgrade around Boogie, and the upgrades so far this off-season (barring trades) are negligible at best, we will all of the sudden take off as a team. That is only going to come with improved play from Boogie, and that will be reflected tangibly (stats) and intangibly (defensive effort and leadership).
 
#41
The debate is more subtle and nuanced than that. My contention is if Boogie continues to play at the same level, related to offensive efficiency (53.5% TS and 0.7 assist to turnover), sporadic defensive effort, and WILD variance from good games to bad games, replete with techs and ejections, the Kings can NOT win at a high level.
Well I have two problems with that claim. First of all, Boogie didn't have a TS% of 53% last year. It was 54%. Secondly, he was 55% & 56% the prior two years and 59% during the 15 game stretch when Cousins was healthy and Malone was our head coach. What's more realistic? That he hovers around 53% from here on out or that he returns to this 55% level that he was playing at while Malone was head coach? Pretty clear to me...

The second problem I have with this is what is considered a high level? If you can consider 45-50 wins high level than I disagree with you. Cousins with a 53% TS% & 0.7 Assist to Turnover ratio can win at a high level. The reason being is because his defensive impact is excellent.

The team this year was 5 points worse with him off the floor and 8 points worse last year. Among centers who averaged 25 mpg or more, he was 4th in DRPM and 1st last year. You can talk about his defensive effort being better which I won't argue because it can, but even with his inconsistent defensive intensity, he's still one of the best defenders at C in the league.

That's how this team wins at a high level.

Too many possessions will be used up for even a superior supporting cast with better defenders and more production at the SG to compensate for a team led by a guy incapable of being trustworthy and consistent and offering next to zero leadership.
Too many possessions? Do you have any data to prove that or do you just have a feeling?

The alternate point of view is that none of the sub 30 win seasons and recent failed campaigned can or should be laid at the feet of Boogie and he is IMMUNE from criticism or blame. Both point of views cannot be correct, neither in retrospect or prospectively.
So black and white. It's exhausting really...

I don't think anyone here would say that Cousins isn't immune to criticism. He has things he needs to work on like every other player in this league. If Cousins did all of those things you mentioned, he would probably bring the team from 30 wins to 35 wins (maybe 40). I have no way of proving that, but it's the guess I would make. However, you seem to be hinting that it wouldn't even matter if the supporting cast improved. It's all up to Cousins to lead us to 60 wins. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding, but that's pretty ridiculous.

It's not black and white. Both things need to improve for this team to become an elite team. Probably only 1 of them needs to improve to get to that 40 win level.

If the Kings are going to win it is going to be because Boogie becomes a better player. And the reason that has to happen is because he is the focal point of the team and because his usage rate is so HIGH. If his usage rate were set to come down, say with the addition of second or third star, then he wouldn't have to get any better, and the team could absorb his outbursts and wild swings in play because other stars would be around to pick up the slack. We don't have that luxury.
Again, that's one way to improve this team. That's not the only way. You seem to not understand that. If Cousins doesn't improve with his 30% usage but the other 70% does, we're a better team. It's pretty simple...

The other point of contention is to properly use Boogie we need to feed him in the post 15-20 times per game where he belongs because Second Coming of Hakeem or whatever. And when a coach with half of a brain does we are going to magically transform from sad sacks into playoff contenders. Those fans expecting the latter if and when we start running more post offense are in for a rude awakening.
Well I remember him in the post quite a bit when Malone was here. Maybe you remember different? And he had a TS% over 55%. I agree that his post skills aren't the best, but he was effective nonetheless when Malone chose to kept feeding him in the post. I think his injuries probably hampered him this year which is possibly what you are alluding to.

So there is little to NO merit to the argument from my perspective that once we upgrade around Boogie, and the upgrades so far this off-season (barring trades) are negligible at best, we will all of the sudden take off as a team. That is only going to come with improved play from Boogie, and that will be reflected tangibly (stats) and intangibly (defensive effort and leadership).
Again, this is very debatable which has been proven by the multitude of thoughtful posts laid before you.
 
#42
Its not a matter of extremes, its right vs. wrong. I am right. He's wrong. :D I think Boogie is an AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME talent. We agree on that. His hand eye coordination, his agility for a man his size, his feathery shooting touch and range, his anticipation to draw charges are exemplary. They ARE Hall of Fame worthy. He's incredible!!! I have said that from Day One when I said the ONLY thing preventing him from stardom was physical conditioning because ALL of the tools are there. But what has held him back individually and by extension held back the team (and try to separate the two is ridiculous which is what Brick has tried to do) is chronic immaturity and temper issues which have manifested in the following ways:

- suboptimal conditioning
- relationship with refs
- relationship with teammates
- leadership
- poise under pressure

There is also HOLE in his mostly complete and dynamic game. The hole is low post efficiency and go-to low post move. He lacks vertical lift and high release point on his post moves. He is a POWER player. Not a guy you can dump the ball and get a high percentage shot and look for someone else. Granted they are NOT many players like this left anymore, but guys like Marc Gasol, Greg Monroe and even Enes Kanter have more low post arsenal than Boogie. It is NOT who he is.
I've been reading your posts (mostly) and I have to say I disagree with you on the bolded part (among other topics, but humor me on this one). I look at it this way: If a toddler (for the sake of the argument, let's say this is the same toddler) had 2 different sets of parents, one being a responsible couple and the other a rather destructive set, would you expect the child to turn out the same regardless of which set of parents raises him/her?

The answer is no. Life doesn't work like that, it's not in absolutes. If you put anybody in a toxic environment, they will eventually adopt the same philosophy. It's psychological, it's on a subconscious level. You don't even realize you did it, but you did. There are many social experiments out there that prove this (the best ones are from long ago when there were no rules to govern psychologists :p).

Cousins has his issues, we all do. However, his issues have been exemplified and multiplied because of our poor standing as a franchise and us having a really high failure rate. He certainly has been his own worst enemy at times, but it's absolutely silly to say he held us back. We are quite adept as an entire franchise at sucking even without him. There are 2 sides to every story. We have been equally (and I argue even more so) destructive towards him than he has towards us. He's the type that needs a leader because he isn't a natural at it. We didn't provide him with one for years, and when we did for the first time, we fired him. He has no reason to be loyal to us as a franchise, but he is. We should cherish that and take advantage while we can. If he went to almost any other franchise, we would be calling him the best big man of his generation.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#43
Blob continues to work the angle that the rest of the world is composed of perfect players who are good at everything, and that the exact traits that will prevent you from ever winning (at a high level -- a new wrinkle preparing the way for retreat?) just so happen to be the exact warts which Cousins has. Odd how that works.

All of which sets up the inevitable "see! i told you so! That 0.5 less TO per game is why we are winning now!" argument if we turn things dramatically next year.

BTW, quoting Boogie's .538 TS% last season for much of anything is a steaming pile of quadruped dung. That was George Karl and the most bizarre usage of a great center, not just in modern memory, perhaps ever. As in EVER. In the entire history of great centers, of which I have 30+years of direct knowledge, nobody has EVER used one the way Karl did last year. Completely unprecedented. Its a mark of just how highly Cuz ranks amongst the all time list that he was able to achieve the things he did last year despite it. Patrick Ewing would have been a disaster played like that. Dwight Howard likely would have been benched. But unique as are Cousins skills that allowed him to put up big numbers in that system, there were still going to be consequences to efficiency and rebounding in particular.

We had one coach who ever used Cousins like a great center, Cousins' TS% for that coach was about .560 in over a year's work. Caught a scrimmage vid of Team USA, there is Coach K with Cuz right back in the post (in fact somewhat too much as it shows a certain rigidity and old fashioned approach to Coach K's offensive system). Its how you use him. But how you use Boogie goes to the question of whether you win 48 or 56 with him, not the question of whether you can break 30 with him. Not being able to even get out of the mid lottery with a player of that caliber is completely and 100% an organizational issue. Lousy GMing. Lousy misfit coaching. Its entirely a different question than if you can win a title until Cuz cleans it up.

BTW, a short list of players who would not pass Blob's newly minted A/T (1.2 to 1.5 at least!) and TS% (.555 at least!) test to even be able to break even in the NBA:

Garnett
Duncan
Mailman
Admiral
Ewing
Mourning
Shaq
Yao
Dwight
Moses
Webber
Brow

I did find 3 examples of guys who actually did reach those numbers (barely in Barkley's case):
Barkley
Dirk
Griffin

But of course none of those guys actually played any defense, which would seem to be a tad more important than having an A/T/ ratio of 1.2 as a big man.

Anyway, its all just a load of bunk. Reverse argumentation. Let's see, what does Cousins not do? Aha! Amazingly that's exactly what you have to do to win!


Some easy predictions this year:

1) Joerger will use Boogie correctly and magically his TS% will go up. There may be some lingering pull down on it from the adverse Karl training, and if his teammates do not improve it will be an interesting question whether having smart spacing teaammates will help him more than having no reliable other options will hurt him as he's swarmed. Nonetheless the TS% will climb up to a natural level in the .550 to .570 level, especially if Boogie gets a second year with him and the system. At some point in there Cuz will roll and ankle and have a down month of TS% in the .540s and .530s at whihc point I fully expect Blob to very reasonably materialize to claim that Cuz is not trying, is out of shape, is horribly inconsistent and the rest,

2) Cuz's A/T ratio will NOT be 1.2 to 1.5 or over. It will in fact be determined by two competing factors: 1) Joerger's system which may raise it up depending on use, and 2) the loss of Rondo/possible requirement for Boogie to have to do too much creating again due to lack of sufficient PG play, which would drive it down. Depends a bit on what else we do with our PG position this summer, and in any case I don't think Joerger is the sort of coach who wil let things get too fugly.

3) the Kings record this year will not be determined by all this silly nonsense about the best offensive big man in the game, this is all fundamentally ignorant blathering in the end. The Kings record will be determined BY THE DEFENSE. As it always has been in all systems of this nature. If the defense is bottom 10, then we will be a lottery team. If the defense improves, but only into the #12-#18 sort of range, we will be a .500 type team struggling to acheive more. If Joerger is able to create such a 1 year revolution that we move into the Top 10 defensively, then we will be a playoff team, and one nobody will want to play.

For years the Kings have played good enough offense to be .500 or better, to be a fringe playoff team (even with Cuz not having an A/T ratio above 1.5!!). In the last 4 years we've been 12th, 20th, 14th and 15th in OFFENSIVE efficiency, which given that there are 16 playoff teams should logically put you right there on the cusp of being a playoff team. But over that span we've been 29th, 23rd, 27th and 22nd in DEFENSIVE efficiency. And so as I've mentioned before, almost all of our arguments about how to improve the OFFENSE are wasted effort. Improve the other side of the ball, and we will absolutely start winning, no matter the TS%. In 3 years under Joerger the Grizzlies offensive efficiency was very similar to ours over that span, ranking 15th, 13th, and 19th. But they made the playoffs every year with a defense that ranked 7th, 3rd, and 19th.
 
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#44
Well I have two problems with that claim. First of all, Boogie didn't have a TS% of 53% last year. It was 54%. Secondly, he was 55% & 56% the prior two years and 59% during the 15 game stretch when Cousins was healthy and Malone was our head coach. What's more realistic? That he hovers around 53% from here on out or that he returns to this 55% level that he was playing at while Malone was head coach? Pretty clear to me...

The second problem I have with this is what is considered a high level? If you can consider 45-50 wins high level than I disagree with you. Cousins with a 53% TS% & 0.7 Assist to Turnover ratio can win at a high level. The reason being is because his defensive impact is excellent.

The team this year was 5 points worse with him off the floor and 8 points worse last year. Among centers who averaged 25 mpg or more, he was 4th in DRPM and 1st last year. You can talk about his defensive effort being better which I won't argue because it can, but even with his inconsistent defensive intensity, he's still one of the best defenders at C in the league.

That's how this team wins at a high level.



Too many possessions? Do you have any data to prove that or do you just have a feeling?



So black and white. It's exhausting really...

I don't think anyone here would say that Cousins isn't immune to criticism. He has things he needs to work on like every other player in this league. If Cousins did all of those things you mentioned, he would probably bring the team from 30 wins to 35 wins (maybe 40). I have no way of proving that, but it's the guess I would make. However, you seem to be hinting that it wouldn't even matter if the supporting cast improved. It's all up to Cousins to lead us to 60 wins. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding, but that's pretty ridiculous.

It's not black and white. Both things need to improve for this team to become an elite team. Probably only 1 of them needs to improve to get to that 40 win level.



Again, that's one way to improve this team. That's not the only way. You seem to not understand that. If Cousins doesn't improve with his 30% usage but the other 70% does, we're a better team. It's pretty simple...



Well I remember him in the post quite a bit when Malone was here. Maybe you remember different? And he had a TS% over 55%. I agree that his post skills aren't the best, but he was effective nonetheless when Malone chose to kept feeding him in the post. I think his injuries probably hampered him this year which is possibly what you are alluding to.



Again, this is very debatable which has been proven by the multitude of thoughtful posts laid before you.

When Boogie and the team got off to that start under Malone two years ago and were defending, cohesive and surprising everyone with a 9-7 start against a tough schedule. I was excited as ANY Kings fan at the time. That looked like a playoff team before Boogie got sidelined and everything unraveled...but it is mistaken to assign Boogie's level of play solely to Malone with an assumption Joerger stepping in and playing similar grind and pound style is going to be return to those "glory days"....that lasted all off 4 weeks or so in November.

(I am not saying you are making this assumption, but it is a common sentiment around here.)

Boogie was playing very well in the context of a legitimate 2nd and 3rd star at time with Isaiah and Rudy. Rudy was a 20 PPG guy and featured prominently and Isaiah was shredding defenses. In this context Boogie can be very good to great AS A DECOY (which is what I have been asking for a years) deferring and using his inside AND outside skills and pick and roll force. Shots and possessions are simply TAKEN AWAY from Boogie when are other serious threats on floor DEMAND or COMMAND the ball. With a coach intent on spreading the wealth! It is in the context Boogie has the best chance to succeed.

But right now our team is not taking this shape.

And it is in this prospective context I have said Boogie needs to be a lot better for the season to be a success. Until he proves otherwise I don't think he has the temperament or post moves to carry a team offensively. Yeah he can put up a ton of points, but not at efficiency that can win you a lot of games. And when his offense unravels his defense unravels and his terrible mood and temper drags down everyone. This is not my opinion. This is the fact! So all the other variables you want to point to may have merit but it does not change any of MORE prominent variables that dictate team success or failure.

Whether Boogie can lead a team without a legitimate #2 scorer (if Rudy is moved) and Darren running the point is a dubious proposition. I love Darren as a player but he's not as dynamic as Isaiah.

The comment RE: immune to criticism is what Brick has said. None of the losing is his responsibility per him. He has been a victim of circumstances, which to me is laughable. If Boogie didn't stink so bad in December and second half of January we could have competed for the 8th playoff spot. And I know I know he was hurt. Well why was he hurt? Because he was carrying too much weight that led to tendonitis in his feet. If he was more committed to off-season conditioning, his feet would have more able to absorb the pounding. Just call me Dr. Blob. :D
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#45
When Boogie and the team got off to that start under Malone two years ago and were defending, cohesive and surprising everyone with a 9-7 start against a tough schedule. I was excited as ANY Kings fan at the time. That looked like a playoff team before Boogie got sidelined and everything unraveled...but it is mistaken to assign Boogie's level of play solely to Malone with an assumption Joerger stepping in and playing similar grind and pound style is going to be return to those "glory days"....that lasted all off 4 weeks or so in November.

(I am not saying you are making this assumption, but it is a common sentiment around here.)

Boogie was playing very well in the context of a legitimate 2nd and 3rd star at time with Isaiah and Rudy. Rudy was a 20 PPG guy and featured prominently and Isaiah was shredding defenses. In this context Boogie can be very good to great AS A DECOY (which is what I have been asking for a years) deferring and using his inside AND outside skills and pick and roll force. Shots and possessions are simply TAKEN AWAY from Boogie when are other serious threats on floor DEMAND or COMMAND the ball. With a coach intent on spreading the wealth! It is in the context Boogie has the best chance to succeed.

But right now our team is not taking this shape.

And it is in this prospective context I have said Boogie needs to be a lot better for the season to be a success. Until he proves otherwise I don't think he has the temperament or post moves to carry a team offensively. Yeah he can put up a ton of points, but not at efficiency that can win you a lot of games. And when his offense unravels his defense unravels and his terrible mood and temper drags down everyone. This is not my opinion. This is the fact! So all the other variables you want to point to may have merit but it does not change any of MORE prominent variables that dictate team success or failure.

Whether Boogie can lead a team without a legitimate #2 scorer (if Rudy is moved) and Darren running the point is a dubious proposition. I love Darren as a player but he's not as dynamic as Isaiah.

The comment RE: immune to criticism is what Brick has said. None of the losing is his responsibility per him. He has been a victim of circumstances, which to me is laughable. If Boogie didn't stink so bad in December and second half of January we could have competed for the 8th playoff spot. And I know I know he was hurt. Well why was he hurt? Because he was carrying too much weight that led to tendonitis in his feet. If he was more committed to off-season conditioning, his feet would have more able to absorb the pounding. Just call me Dr. Blob. :D
I think your confusing Isaiah with Darren during the 9-6 GOAT stint with Malone, Thomas was on the Suns at that point. The pairing of Cousins/Rudy/Isaiah was I think a sub 500. or roughly about in the later part of Malone's first season. So even with a guy who lead his team to close to 50 wins without Gay/Cousins we could not be a playoff team with those 3.

The only thing I expect from the team this year is that with Barnes/AT/Temple/DC/Casspi/WCS we got a way more guys this year that will give you effort every game which should make the team way more fun to watch but as far as winning games not really expecting much.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#46
I think your confusing Isaiah with Darren during the 9-6 GOAT stint with Malone, Thomas was on the Suns at that point. The pairing of Cousins/Rudy/Isaiah was I think a sub 500. or roughly about in the later part of Malone's first season. So even with a guy who lead his team to close to 50 wins without Gay/Cousins we could not be a playoff team with those 3.
Again though:

IT did not lead his team to 50 wins

Nor did Cuz/Rudy/IT only go .500 (it was something close to that that year)

Boston's DEFENSE led that team to nearly 50 wins. IT was the designated scorer, but the team's calling card and strategy was centered around that defense.

Similarly, Sacramento's DEFENSE prevented Cuz/Rudy/IT from doing any better 3 years ago.


Swap Boston's defense this year for Sacramento's defense that year, and Boston struggles to break 30 this year, and those Kings...well, they probably still do not make the playoffs, but the Cuz/Rudy/IT pairing, which was only the court together for about 40-45 games or so, would have done a hell of a lot better.

The defense is the key to all of this. Its what makes modestly talented teams competitive, and good ones great. Our offensive pairings have been decent for years. It means nothing without defense.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#47
Again though:

IT did not lead his team to 50 wins

Nor did Cuz/Rudy/IT only go .500 (it was something close to that that year)

Boston's DEFENSE led that team to nearly 50 wins. IT was the designated scorer, but the team's calling card and strategy was centered around that defense.

Similarly, Sacramento's DEFENSE prevented Cuz/Rudy/IT from doing any better 3 years ago.


Swap Boston's defense this year for Sacramento's defense that year, and Boston struggles to break 30 this year, and those Kings...well, they probably still do not make the playoffs, but the Cuz/Rudy/IT pairing, which was only the court together for about 40-45 games or so, would have done a hell of a lot better. When the Celtics got Thomas and Crowder in deals they became a legit playoff team prior to that they were a lottery team with Green/Rondo.

The defense is the key to all of this. Its what makes modestly talented teams competitive, and good ones great. Our offensive pairings have been decent for years. It means nothing without defense.
Yeah he did he was a huge part of it along with the defense, they guy was a All Star and the only All Star on the team and for the most part by media/fans the unquestioned best player on the team.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#48
Yeah he did he was a huge part of it along with the defense, they guy was a All Star and the only All Star on the team and for the most part by media/fans the unquestioned best player on the team.
Its a definitional thing, but no, he really didn't.

He played a role that teams like that need, as designated scorer. But the thing that defines the Cs, he was not a part of. Their defense won them games. IT is an important player for them to score enough to make the defense worth it, but they weren't winning games because of IT's overwhelming buttkicking. They were winning them with the defense. If you wanted to understand what makes the Cs tick and came up with the answer "IT", it would be a misunderstanding of their whole culture and strategy there. Somebody will always have to play the IT role, but it could be a number of people. The teamwide defense on the other hand is the constant that defines them now under Stevens.
 
#50
All you have to do is look at his performance in December and second half of January to see how Boogie's play torpedoed our season when we gave away a ton of winnable games due to his underperformance. The head coaching void and SG void and defensive perimeter void were definitely factors too, but the 8th spot was there for the taking and Boogie was not good enough to lead us there. That's not even opinion or narrative. That's fact with a PG and offense that catered to his skill allowing him over 30% usage rate (#1 in NBA!) while icing out a 20 PPG scorer. All you have to do is look at the WILD variance in production and efficiency over aforementioned time frame for proof.
An offense CATERED to his skill? What in Gods name are you talking about? If anything, that crap offense was the exact opposite
 
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#52
IT is a very good player and one that I'm sad the Kings gave away for a bag of chips. However, he is not the sole or primary reason the Celtics won 50 games. @celtics33 can tell us more, lol.
IT had an amazing year despite how many people try to discredit him, but I agree with you. He's not the primary reason why they won 50 games this year.

A BIG reason is because of Brad Stevens.

He's going to be a great coach. He's exactly the type of guy Cousins needs.
 
#53
IT had an amazing year despite how many people try to discredit him, but I agree with you. He's not the primary reason why they won 50 games this year.

A BIG reason is because of Brad Stevens.

He's going to be a great coach. He's exactly the type of guy Cousins needs.
or, ya know, current kings coach dave joerger, another young head coach who's similarly climbed his way up the coaching ranks with a tireless work ethic and a hard-nosed, defensive approach to basketball...
 
#54
or, ya know, current kings coach dave joerger, another young head coach who's similarly climbed his way up the coaching ranks with a tireless work ethic and a hard-nosed, defensive approach to basketball...
Stevens is the ideal coach imo.

Joerger is a nice option too, but I don't understand how having a defensive approach correlates to Cousins? I'm not the biggest fan of Joerger, but I feel confident that Joerger-Cousins will be a good combo.
 
#55
When Boogie and the team got off to that start under Malone two years ago and were defending, cohesive and surprising everyone with a 9-7 start against a tough schedule. I was excited as ANY Kings fan at the time. That looked like a playoff team before Boogie got sidelined and everything unraveled...but it is mistaken to assign Boogie's level of play solely to Malone with an assumption Joerger stepping in and playing similar grind and pound style is going to be return to those "glory days"....that lasted all off 4 weeks or so in November.

(I am not saying you are making this assumption, but it is a common sentiment around here.)

Boogie was playing very well in the context of a legitimate 2nd and 3rd star at time with Isaiah and Rudy. Rudy was a 20 PPG guy and featured prominently and Isaiah was shredding defenses.

Whether Boogie can lead a team without a legitimate #2 scorer (if Rudy is moved) and Darren running the point is a dubious proposition. I love Darren as a player but he's not as dynamic as Isaiah.
You are really confused.

That 9-6 start the team got off to was without IT.
Collison was the lead PG, and Ramon Sessions was the absurdly-incompetent backup PG.

You seem to be making up arguments against Boogie with little foresight ; just whatever factoid you can pull out of your brain you can then try to wrap your biases around.

I'm surprised your obvious mistake lasted this long without being corrected.
 
#56
Stevens is the ideal coach imo.

Joerger is a nice option too, but I don't understand how having a defensive approach correlates to Cousins? I'm not the biggest fan of Joerger, but I feel confident that Joerger-Cousins will be a good combo.
I still can't wrap my head around the logic of this post. Stevens is ideal for Cuz, but you don't see how having defensive approach correlates to Cousins? Ok then.

I imagine you're trying to suggest that Cousins isn't a good defender, which is all kinds of factually incorrect.
 
#57
Stevens is the ideal coach imo.

Joerger is a nice option too, but I don't understand how having a defensive approach correlates to Cousins? I'm not the biggest fan of Joerger, but I feel confident that Joerger-Cousins will be a good combo.
really? like, really?! then you fail a rather basic test of basketball comprehension. when focused, cousins is one of the strongest big man defenders in the nba. we already know he's gifted offensively. he can put up 25 ppg with very little effort. but a head coach who he can harness his two-way ability is a head coach who wants to win. both joerger and stevens fit that bill, though i'm partial to joerger because he's already won in this league by harnessing the two-way ability of bigs like zach randolph and marc gasol.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#58
I just think that some people have an incredibly hard time giving the FO much if any credit. If anyone had any reservations about Joerger, go educate yourself on the guy. What he did last year in Memphis, reaching the playoffs despite an unusually high amount of injuries and then the FO trading off a couple of assets, was amazing. One hell of a coaching job by him....maybe the best job in the entire league when taking into account all aspects.

Vlade hiring this guy is a great get. Doesn't guarantee playoffs but this hiring was a coup for Vlade. For the first time in a decade or so, there is a clear plan in place.
 
#59
I still can't wrap my head around the logic of this post. Stevens is ideal for Cuz, but you don't see how having defensive approach correlates to Cousins? Ok then.

I imagine you're trying to suggest that Cousins isn't a good defender, which is all kinds of factually incorrect.
really? like, really?! then you fail a rather basic test of basketball comprehension. when focused, cousins is one of the strongest big man defenders in the nba. we already know he's gifted offensively. he can put up 25 ppg with very little effort. but a head coach who he can harness his two-way ability is a head coach who wants to win. both joerger and stevens fit that bill, though i'm partial to joerger because he's already won in this league by harnessing the two-way ability of bigs like zach randolph and marc gasol.
no, I'm saying having a good defensive coach does not mean it's a big +++++ for Cousins. Is there some type of notation that defensive coaches are more superior/hard working compared to offensive coaches? Or coaches who focus less on defense? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Keith Smart always a defensive-minded coach?

Stevens is a great coach because he knows how to get the best of them. He has his players backs and he makes them buy into whatever he sells. Cousins is an underrated great defender. Him being a strong defensive coach isn't the reason why I think he'd be great for Cousins. It's his coaching style and the fact that all of his players love him. He's a leader all around. Perfect fit next to Cousins, but like I said.. I think Joerger-Cousins is a good fit too. I never dismissed that.