Top players of all time - KF fans lists

I just noticed Shaq listed Dr J as his greatest basketball player ever selection.* Ok, everyone has an opinion. So here's my loose list of greatest "basketball players" - top 30 (taking into account College, Int'l and NBA)

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...lYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1NNRTU5Ml8x

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Michael Jordan
4) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5) Bill Russell
6) Ervin Johnson
7) Larry Bird
8) Hakeem Olajuwon
9) Tim Duncan
10) Jerry West
11) Julius Erving
12) Kobe Bryant
13) LeBron James (chance to move up)
14) Shaquille O'Neal
15) Oscar Schmidt
16) Elgin Baylor
17) Rick Barry
18) Moses Malone
19) Pete Maravich
20) Wes Unseld
21) Isiah Thomas
22) Bill Walton
23) Kevin McHale
24) John Stockton
25) Steve Nash
26) Dirk Nowitzki
27) Kevin Durant (chance to move up)
28) Karl Malone
29) John Havlicek
30) DeMarcus Cousins (movin' on up!)

Methinks Shaq is going to eat you.

And KG and Admiral are waving "hi" from somewhere.

Oscar Schmidt was a great scorer but that's it. I would drop him from the list, move Pete Maravich up to #15 and put David Robinson in at #19.

And ... I'm old enough to have seen Chamberlain vs. Russell a number of times. That was FUN to watch.

I know it's always an endless argument (and just for fun) anytime these lists are made up. I suppose Manu Ginobili was actually better than Schmidt and of course that's big argument in Latin America. I might have put David Robinson on my list except he was like Patrick Ewing (well, almost) - fodder for Hakeem Olajuwon to totally dominate. Shaq was dominated by Olajuwon as well, but that was very early in O'Neal's career. Baja would probably insist Bob Pettit gets on the list somewhere

Hard to argue with these sorts of lists because it's all in the eye of the beholder but why is Steve Nash only one spot behind the greatest point guard to play the game? And on that note, why is Isiah Thomas ranked three slots above John Stockton? The dude was an amazing player, sure, but at the very most the two are about even.

And while I admire you having the courage to place Oscar Schmidt on your top 30 list, I (a) don't think he really deserves to be on it and (b) if he is going to be on the list, there's absolutely no way in hell he should be ranked over pretty much every person he is ranked above. There are a bunch of players that could be argued deserve a slot instead of him (and Dirk and Durant and Walton (revolutionary when healthy but injured 90% of the time)), chief among them the Admiral, Charles Barkley (the one 6'6" guy I wouldn't mind Keith Smart sticking in the post), Bob Pettit, and Kevin Garnett (what the Bucks are hoping Giannis becomes).


And you also forgot to include Justin Williams.

I know, I know, endless argument. At least got all those great PGs on my "top 30" list. If it was top 40 or 50 list would have included another great PG or two like Bob Cousy, maybe Tony Parker, and bunch of other great players passed over. I figured Oscar Schmidt with his 50,000+ career points scored would get comment and like I said Manu Ginobili is probably greatest player ever from South America and maybe needed to be in spot where I have John Havlicek - both being great so-called 6th men if not top two ever in that role. I bet MJ would have Mitch Richmond somewhere on his list. I bet Sir Charles would have GINOBILI! on his list. The immortal Justin Williams deserving for sure!

Since PurpleHaze listed his top 30 players of all time, I decided to list mine. I also expanded to the top 40 in order to mention some that I think deserve mentioniing. My list pertains only to the NBA, and feel free to nit pic. The hardest part was putting them in order. I've listed a couple of career offensive stats, but took how well the player played defense into consideration when putting them in order. I also took how well they made those around them better, into consideration. I omitted the blocked shot stat since they didn't keep that stat when some of them played.

1. Oscar Robertson: PG, 6'5". Played 14 seasons. 25.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 9.5 APG. Oscar was also a very good defender. Wasn't much he couldn't do.
2. Wilt Chamberlain: C, 7'1". Played 14 seasons. 30.1 PPG, 22.9 RPG, 4.4 APG. Wilt led the league in assists one year. He averaged 50 PPG one year.
3. Michael Jordan: SG, 6'6". Played 15 seasons. 30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG. Jordan refused to lose. One of the most clutch players I've ever seen.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: C, 7'2". Played 20 seasons. 24.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG, 3.6 APG. His sky hook was virtually unstoppable. All time points leader.
5. Jerry West: PG, 6'2". Played 14 seasons. 27.0 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 6.7 APG. Just a great all around player who could do it all.
6. Kobe Bryant: SG, 6'6". Played 18 seasons. 25.5 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.8 APG. If Kobe had been a bit more of a total team player, he'd be higher.
7. Elgin Baylor: SF/SG, 6'5". Played 14 seasons. 27.4 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 4.3 APG. Great player! Great rebounder for his size.
8. Hakeem Olajuwon: C, 6'10". Played 18 seasons. 21.8 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 2.5 APG. Great offensive player. Even greater defensive player.
9. Bill Russell: C, 6'10". Played 13 seasons. 15.1 PPG, 22.5 RPG, 4.3 APG. May be greatest defensive player of all time. Terrific shotblocker.
10. Magic Johnson: PG, 6'8". Played 13 seasons. 19.5 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 11.2 APG. The word magic says it all. He had eye's in the back of his head.
11. Larry Bird: PF, 6'9". Played 13 seasons. 24.3 PPG, 10.0 RPG, 6.8 APG. Great passer, great shooter, and underrated defender.
12. LeBron James: SF, 6'8", Played 11 seasons. 27.5 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 6.9 APG. Should be higher, and may end up top 3 by the end of his career.
13. Julius Erving: SF, 6'6". Played 11 NBA seasons. 22.0 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 3.9 APG. Played his first 5 , and best seasons in the ABA. Not included here.
14. George Gervin: SG/SF, 6'7". Played 10 seasons. 26.2 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 2.8 APG. He was known as the Ice Man. Had a great baseline fall away.
15. Bob Pettit: PF, 6'9". Played 10 seasons. 26.4 PPG, 16.2 RPG, 3.0 APG. Tenacious rebounder. Best turn around jump shot I ever saw.
16. Pete Maravich: SG, 6'5". Played 10 seasons. 24.2 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 5.4 APG. Was Magic before Magic. Nothing he couldn't do with the ball.
17. Charles Barkley: PF, 6'5". Played 16 seasons. 22.1 PPG, 11.7 RPG, 3.9 APG. Despite being undersized, he was unstoppable. Terrific rebounder.
18. Rick Barry: SF, 6'7". Played 10 NBA seasons. 23.2 PPG, 6.5 RPG, 5.1 APG. Terrific passer and shooter. Underrated defender.
19. Clyde Drexler: SF/SG, 6'7". Played 15 seasons. 20.4 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 5.6 APG. Known as Clyde the Glide. He made it look easy.
20. David Robinson: C, 7'1". Played 14 seasons. 21.1 PPG, 10.6 RPG, 2.5 APG. Known as the Admiral. One of the best defenders of all time.
21. Tim Duncan: PF, 6'11". Played 17 seasons. 19.9 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 3.1 APG. Mr. Fundamental. Could be the best PF of all time.
22. John Havlicek: SF, 6'6". Played 16 seasons. 20.8 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.8 APG. He was the heart and soul of those great Celtic teams.
23. Shaquille O'Neal: C, 7'2". Played 19 seasons. 23.7 PPG, 10.9 RPG, 2.5 APG. Great player, but he could have been better.
24. Karl Malone: PF, 6'10". Played 19 seasons. 25.0 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 3.6 APG. Also in running as the greatest PF of all time. Sadly, no championships.
25. Alex English: SF, 6.7". Played 15 seasons. 21.5 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 3.6 APG. Very smooth player who made the game look easy. He was a quiet scorer.
26. Bob Lanier: C, 6'11". Played 14 seasons. 20.1 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 3.1 APG. Good passer for a big man. Great physical low post player.
27. Andrian Dantley: PF/SF, 6'6". Played 15 seasons. 24.3 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 3.0 APG. Another undersized player that was unstoppable at the basket.
28. John Stockton: PG, 6'1". Played 19 seasons. 13.1 PPG, 2.7 RPG, 10.5 APG. All time assists leader. One of the toughest PG's to ever play the game.
29. Dominique Wilkins: SF, 6'7". Played 15 seasons. 24.8 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 2.5 APG. Great athlete! Some thought he could fly.
30. Kevin Garnett: PF, 6'11". Played 19 seasons. 18.6 PPG, 10.3 RPG, 3.9 APG. Fiery player who didn't tip my son when he delivered his Pizza.
31. Walt Bellamy: C, 6'11". Played 14 seasons. 20.1 PPG, 13.7 RPG, 2.4 APG. Another great low post player. Great rebounder and defender.
32. Walt Frazier: SG, 6'4". Played 13 seasons. 18.9 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 6.1 APG. Terrific passer and scorer. Better player than a announcer.
33. Isiah Thomas: PG, 6'1". Played 13 seasons. 19.2 PPG, 3.6 RPG, 9.3 APG. Great playmaker. He could get anywhere he wanted on the floor.
34. Dave Cowens: C, 6'9". Played 11 seasons. 17.6 PPG, 13.6 RPG, 3.8 APG. Very physical player who could bang with the best. Great rebounder.
35. Bob Cousy: PG, 6'1". Played 14 seasons. 18.4 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 7.5 APG. He defined the position of PG. He was Magic before Magic. Great shooter.
36. Steve Nash: PG, 6'3". Played 18 seasons. 14.3 PPG, 3.0 RPG, 8.5 APG. Will go down as one of the greatest PG's of all time. Underrated scorer.
37. Elvin Hayes: PF, 6'9". Played 16 seasons. 21.0 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 1.8 APG. If a better passer, he would have been ranked higher
38. Bob McAdoo: PF, 6'9". Played 14 seasons. 22.1 PPG, 9.4 RPG, 2.3 APG. Good all around player. Never quite a superstar, but close.
39. Moses Malone: C, 6'10". Played 19 seasons. 20.1 PPG, 12.2 RPG, 1.4 APG. Should probably be ranked higher. But was never a good passer.
40.Kevin Durant: SF, 6'10". Played 7 seasons. 27.4 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 3.5 APG. Will probably end up top ten by career's end. On his way up.

So there's my top 40. There were quite a few that I struggled with that didn't make the list, and I'm sure some of you would have included them. Such as Dirk Nowitzki, Willis Reed, Patrick Ewing, Tiny Archibald, or perhaps Scottie Pippen. It was all I could do to keep myself from including Lenny Wilkins, who played for my St. Louis Hawks, and is one of the great PG's of all time.

And oh by the way, "The Big O" in 1961-62, just his second year in the league averaged triple-double for entire season (never done before or since): 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, and 11.4 assists per game. Came in 3rd in MVP voting that year behind Russell and Chamberlain. Very, very few legit sports writers lists of all-time great basketball players don't have Oscar Robertson in top 5. Usually listed PG with Cincinnati Royals (Kings baby) 10 seasons, last 4 seasons with Milwaukee Bucks where as SG won NBA title with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Oscar was voted league MVP in 1964.
Also during the Big O triple-double season Wilt scored his famous 100 point game.

While he only averaged a triple-double that one season, he still managed to average a triple-double his first 5 seasons if you were to add the numbers.

I wouldn't have a problem switching Magic for Baylor. As I said, putting them in the proper order was the hardest thing. Not a Laker fan, and never will be. However I certainly had a lot of respect for the individual players. I saw Julius Erving play, and to be honest, he's one of the best players I ever saw. But when you compare his NBA stats to others, and the fact that his best years were in the ABA, I can't put him at the top of the list. Well I could, but then I'd have people like you disagreeing. It's all subjective, and a lot of the players could be higher or lower.

Not sure what your fathers beef with Wilkins is, but I'd be happy to discuss it with him. I still have a bitter taste in my mouth about my Hawks moving to Atlanta.

How you guys all don't have Michael Jordan as number one is beyond me.

And Magic was better than Hakeem!

"You guys" answers. I have Ervin #6 and Hakeem #8. I have MJ #3 but no problem with him #2 or #1. Jordan never won NBA title until Scottie Pippen arrived and may have never won any without that duo doing their thing. He took couple seasons off in middle of Bulls championship runs to go try baseball which he totally failed at. Also, in middle of some sort of personal crisis period there were charges of gambling addiction (some say de facto NBA ban) plus his father being murdered - perhaps related to MJ gambling debt. MJ could have probably been unquestioned greatest basketball player ever, and might still be, but he left the door open to endless debate with some questionable personal decisions.

Thanks you guys.

Ok seriously? Questionable personal decisions? The guy's dad had just been MUDERED. From what I understand his Dad was like everything to him... his inspiration, his encouragement... he basically won that first title for his dad. Remember the enduring images of his Dad in the locker room so close to MJ during the most intense moments of the celebration?

That he had the guts to step away from the game at his peak and go through a personal journey of sorts (not without his demons) is a credit to him, and in my eyes, only increases his star.

It's not the career totals that makes a player great. It's their influence on the game. No player's was EVER as complete and awe inspiring as MJ's. And that sentiment comes from the greats themselves.

Well, in terms of awe-inspiring, scoring 100 pts in a single game, averaging 50 points in an entire season or averaging a triple-double in a season just might be more impressive and indicative of stuff to some people than playing a game with the flu.

OK, now I'm confused. No need to explain. I got into a discussion about 1st, 2nd and 3rd cousins one time, and it took a month for my mind to recover. Since I never had a father, perhaps I'm missing something, but silly me, I always thought that Dad, and Father mean't the same thing. So I'm assuming that one is a step dad. Or, this could be an episode of Ancient Aliens.

Look, when your making these decisions of who is the best, and what order they should be in, you have to put personal history aside and judge them totally by what they did on the court. And I'm sure a case could be made for about 6 or 7 players being in the number one spot. Personally, Oscar Robertson is the best player that I ever saw play the game. And, I did personally see him play, as I did Jordan. I happen to think that Robertson was the better player, but I can understand some that would think Jordan is the better player, especially if they never got the chance to see Oscar play. All those great plays that Magic used to make, Oscar made long before Magic. All those amazing plays that Jordan made while hanging in the air around the basket, Oscar made before Jordan. There was simply no weakness to his game. And everything he did, he made it look easy.

As for Wilt being the better player, well, Wilt holds more records than any other player in the NBA, and some of those records will never be broken. But the bottom line is, Wilt was a center and Jordan was a SG/SF, and its difficult to pick a winner when your dealing with two different positions and two outstanding players, who were probably the best of all time at their positions. You want to move Jordan ahead of Wilt, have at it. Both were great. Truth is, I could make an argument that LeBron is the greatest of all time. I won't, because I don't believe that, but a good argument could be made. No matter what order they're in, someone will find fault.

Baja what you're not understanding is that what I'm saying is that you are not entitled to your own opinion on this ok? When you act like you are, it's just very confusing.

In fact, come to think of it, nobody other than me is either. I thought I had made that clear.

And that is your opinion.

I actually don't have opinions.

I have dictums.

And the difference being? To be a authority requires on opinion that one is an authority. And we know the saying about opinions. And that is my opinion.

Dude please grow a sense of humor. And I KNOW that was in the manual you all should have gotten.

LOL! I bow to your superiority.....

Instead of making a list of greats, I thought I would go ahead and make a depth chart of the best players. To me, it's always been hard to compare players across positions and decide who is the best, so this view gives me a way out

PG - Oscar Robertson / Magic Johnson / Jerry West
SG - Michael Jordan / Kobe Bryant / Elgin Baylor
SF - LeBron James / Larry Bird / Julius Erving
PF - Tim Duncan / Bob Petit / Kevin Garnett
C - Wilt Chamberlain / Kareem Abdul-Jabbar / Hakeem Olajuwon

D-League Affiliate:
PG - John Stockton
SG - Clyde Drexler
SF - Rick Barry
PF - Karl Malone
C - Bill Russell

Well you'd have one hell of a team.

And who would coach the team? How about list of greatest coaches in NBA history:

Head Coach: Red Auerbach
Lead Assistant: Phil Jackson
Assistant & Defensive Coach: Gregg Popovich
Assistant Coach: Pat Riley
Assistant Coach: Chuck Daly

Favorite players of all-time?

It's already been settled - Justin Williams by unanimous vote