State of the Kings:

[DesertFox]

OK, this team obviously has ill-fitted parts, the coach isn't helping, but you can't argue it.

This team has bad shooters, and the only good shooters are all dribblers, not catch and shoot guys. It's a nice talent, but there's only one ball.

Take a look back at the players you named, not only at their shooting %, but at how they shoot.
Outside of the all-stars and Conley (who is darn good), they are all low usage guys who happily stay out of the way and wait for their shoot. The closest thing this team has is Garcia, who is mediocre at everything else, is always hurt, and shot poorly last year.

[andjel]

The system is bad, that's glaringly obvious. No disagreement there. I've seen AND1 streetball games with more structure than this. And it's going to continue to depress shooting numbers until it gets changed. But you're just looking at the starting lineup here. The reason I think the roster is poorly constructed is that our backup bigs are a 6'6" center and a rookie and the rest of our bench is heavily skewed (and I can't emphasize this enough -- heavily skewed) toward high usage scoring guards. The starting lineup you proposed is fine (it'll never happen with Smart in charge but that's a whole other issue) -- what happens when it's time for someone to get a rest? In comes the incredible flying circus of PGs who don't pass. They bob, they weave, they turn down screens and shoot step backs. Who is holding them accountable? What recourse is there other than empty minutes from Outlaw/Cisco or grimacing while Hayes and Robinson get crunched in the paint for the umpteenth time? We've traded away all of our size and we refuse to properly stock our wing positions because our owners are in denial that they're wasting money on unproductive players who could be replaced with D-League fill ins at a fraction of the price.

I do not see bench being imbalanced if system goes back to normal... normal being that you have 3-4 guys from the bench, NOT playing everybody.

Guards: IT/Brooks/Jimmer I do not see much issue if one of them is primary backup, one fills the rest of the minutes and the third one waits for injuries. Any of them can spell MT as shooter, or Reke as PG for limited time (both IT/Brooks have shown they are capable of 4-5 asst in limited minutes). How about IT/Salmons/JJ/Trob/JT lets say for second quarter. Of course, that understood that the system is not "They bob, they weave, they turn down screens and shoot step backs".

SF: Whoever is not starter of JJ/Salmons

Bigs: TRob, Chuck Now while it would be nice to have another big guy, compared with previous year we have one big guy more (TRob) and one healthier. Unless TRob happends to be much worse than advertised, or if Cousins gets injured we are not in such bad shape.
JT/DC/TR/CH gives a lot of options. Most of teams do not have capable 7 footers stashed on the bench. If height is needed, we have JT/DC, if matchup is proper we can go CH/DC starting with JT providing height of the bench.

Accountability and coaching is the key of course.

[andjel]

OK, this team obviously has ill-fitted parts, the coach isn't helping, but you can't argue it.

This team has bad shooters, and the only good shooters are all dribblers, not catch and shoot guys. It's a nice talent, but there's only one ball.

Take a look back at the players you named, not only at their shooting %, but at how they shoot.
Outside of the all-stars and Conley (who is darn good), they are all low usage guys who happily stay out of the way and wait for their shoot. The closest thing this team has is Garcia, who is mediocre at everything else, is always hurt, and shot poorly last year.

Very valid point about the lack of "how they shoot" part of the story that statistic does not tell.
Statistics do show that what we are seeing right now from our players is not what they are capable of shooting.

Just because guys can dribble and shoot does not mean that they cannot spot-up shoot.
I would argue that while Thornton is more known for creating his own shot, he is very good as spot-up shooter as well. With Reke-Cousing on the floor I believe that he is quite deadly in that role.

JJ was definitely not focus of offense in Toronto and was shooting 31.7% last season which is in line with spot-up role players like Sefolosha. He needs his offensive role... which is what system is supposed to provide.

Brooks/Salmons are more known as dribble/shoot guys. Would not pan them as deadly spot-up shooters, but I do not think that opponent would want Salmons wide open.

Jimmer should be fine in that role.

[jcwkings]

This roster is just a complete mess, from the pieces we have this would be the most logical lineup we could field( would it work? probably not, but it is the one that makes most sense and defines roles)

pg: Jimmer
sg: Evans
sf: Garcia
pf: JT
C: Cousins

Jimmer and Garcia are our 2 best spot up shooters and create floor spacing for Evans. Jimmer and Evans split ball handling 60/40. I like James Johnson but his horrid shooting kills ball movement and lets the defense recover because they don't have to honor his shot. Garcia is the only person other than Jimmer who prefers to shoot spotting up rather than off the dribble( Jimmer is quite comfortable spotting up and off the dribble).

[Reke 13 Havoc]

OMG Jimmer and Garcia in the starting lineup? your fired

[jcwkings]

OMG Jimmer and Garcia in the starting lineup? your fired

did i say thats what i want? i said those are the type of players we need starting if our core are Cousins and Evans(particularly Evans). We need a spot up 3pt shooter at SF (Batum, Dorrell Wright, Brandon Rush etc.), and we need a 3pt shooter at pg (Lillard was there to take!!!!!!!!!). and i don't get your hate for Jimmer, the guy has the highest bball iq on this team, and is clearly playing his guts out in the limited minutes he has gotten this year, all of our players shooting percentages are laughable with the exception of Jimmer

[rekehavoc73186]

i would start jimmer, reke, johnson, hayes, cousins. I would trade aaron brooks for a SF that can shoot and play solid defense. Then johnson can come off the bench and he would have thomas and thornton for shooters rather than just playing with one shooter. Tyreke and johnson cannot co exist for a long period of time. I really dont think this team is far away it just needs to have a realible SF that can shoot. Johnson is a upgrade but the dude flat out stinks at shooting. I think i trust tyreke more when open more than JJ.

[mac]

Well you know what, after watching James Johnson for these few games I have concluded that our FO has once again failed to get us the starting SF that we need. JJ would be great as a defensive SF brought off the bench, but he's hurting us way too much on offense. I don't mind that he can't shoot - I mind that he can't shoot and still insists on handling the ball and trying to create (for himself only).

[Spike]

Well you know what, after watching James Johnson for these few games I have concluded that our FO has once again failed to get us the starting SF that we need. JJ would be great as a defensive SF brought off the bench, but he's hurting us way too much on offense. I don't mind that he can't shoot - I mind that he can't shoot and still insists on handling the ball and trying to create (for himself only).

Talk to the coach about that one. This team can function if people know their roles and shut their mouths, and that's on the coach. I'm not even going to bring up the in-game rotations...

[DesertFox]

Very valid point about the lack of "how they shoot" part of the story that statistic does not tell.
Statistics do show that what we are seeing right now from our players is not what they are capable of shooting.

Just because guys can dribble and shoot does not mean that they cannot spot-up shoot.
I would argue that while Thornton is more known for creating his own shot, he is very good as spot-up shooter as well. With Reke-Cousing on the floor I believe that he is quite deadly in that role.

JJ was definitely not focus of offense in Toronto and was shooting 31.7% last season which is in line with spot-up role players like Sefolosha. He needs his offensive role... which is what system is supposed to provide.

Brooks/Salmons are more known as dribble/shoot guys. Would not pan them as deadly spot-up shooters, but I do not think that opponent would want Salmons wide open.

Jimmer should be fine in that role.

You're definitely right, there is no reason a player who can shoot off the dribble can't figure out how to be a spot up shooter. Guys like Caron Butler, Rip Hamilton, vets who've accepted their new role. Even young guys who were superstars at college like JJ Redick become role players in the NBA.

So Brooks/Outlaw/Salmons/etc should be able to fill that role, which is what falls on Smart. Sure he got a mess of a roster, but he hasn't encouraged anything by giving everyone "the green light," rendering his most talented ball handler useless.

[andjel]

Well you know what, after watching James Johnson for these few games I have concluded that our FO has once again failed to get us the starting SF that we need. JJ would be great as a defensive SF brought off the bench, but he's hurting us way too much on offense. I don't mind that he can't shoot - I mind that he can't shoot and still insists on handling the ball and trying to create (for himself only).

This is second year in a row that we are surprised how our off season acquisitions are not as good as we thought.
Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes and now JJ.
Either it is Indian burrial ground that makes roleplayers forget how to shoot, or there is something else.
I would argue about something else.
Key word here is Roleplayers.
What use is role player without role?
If those folks can do bunch of stuff well, they would not be role players anymore.
You do not see Sefoloshas and Battiers of the world handling the ball, having ISOs for them etc. They have role of defensive spot up shooter.
Specialization that role provides makes them able to focus on skills needed instead of wasting energy on stuff that team does not need.

I strongly doubt that Bowen Sefolosha Battier... If they were with our team in their prime, would be as effective as they were on their respective structured teams.

In short, the lack of structure and stability affects role players more than "stars", and that is what we are seeing.

[mac]

This is second year in a row that we are surprised how our off season acquisitions are not as good as we thought.
Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes and now JJ.
Either it is Indian burrial ground that makes roleplayers forget how to shoot, or there is something else.
I would argue about something else.
Key word here is Roleplayers.
What use is role player without role?
If those folks can do bunch of stuff well, they would not be role players anymore.
You do not see Sefoloshas and Battiers of the world handling the ball, having ISOs for them etc. They have role of defensive spot up shooter.
Specialization that role provides makes them able to focus on skills needed instead of wasting energy on stuff that team does not need.

I strongly doubt that Bowen Sefolosha Battier... If they were with our team in their prime, would be as effective as they were on their respective structured teams.

In short, the lack of structure and stability affects role players more than "stars", and that is what we are seeing.

Well I'd say Salmons and Outlaw have been the disappointing ones. Hayes is playing pretty well this season on both ends. Or at very least he's doing what he hired him to do. The same goes for JJ, who is a defensive player. Salmons and Outlaw on the other hand, were brought in as athletic SFs who could shoot, space the floor, and defend, and none of them have done that on a consistent basis.

Like you said the real problem is that we have JJ handling the ball, leading the break etc. Same thing when we post up Chuck Hayes to let him go 1 on 1. If these guys just do their jobs (hustle, play defense... for Hayes to run some plays finding cutters) then we wouldn't have as much of a problem. Johnson's shooting would still be a problem, but it wouldn't be as bad as freezing other key offensive players out

[andjel]

Well I'd say Salmons and Outlaw have been the disappointing ones. Hayes is playing pretty well this season on both ends. Or at very least he's doing what he hired him to do. The same goes for JJ, who is a defensive player. Salmons and Outlaw on the other hand, were brought in as athletic SFs who could shoot, space the floor, and defend, and none of them have done that on a consistent basis.

Like you said the real problem is that we have JJ handling the ball, leading the break etc. Same thing when we post up Chuck Hayes to let him go 1 on 1. If these guys just do their jobs (hustle, play defense... for Hayes to run some plays finding cutters) then we wouldn't have as much of a problem. Johnson's shooting would still be a problem, but it wouldn't be as bad as freezing other key offensive players out

I agree with all said except shooting issues of the team.
If all our role players are shooting their career averages, would this be a glaring issue?
Even with small sample size, JJ was shooting over 31% from 3pt last year which has to be respected by opponent and was starting to develop that skill. I do not know how much he can further improve in jump shooting role, but I am quite sure we will never find out as long as his role is not defined.

[Bricklayer]

OK, this team obviously has ill-fitted parts, the coach isn't helping, but you can't argue it.

This team has bad shooters, and the only good shooters are all dribblers, not catch and shoot guys. It's a nice talent, but there's only one ball.

Take a look back at the players you named, not only at their shooting %, but at how they shoot.
Outside of the all-stars and Conley (who is darn good), they are all low usage guys who happily stay out of the way and wait for their shoot. The closest thing this team has is Garcia, who is mediocre at everything else, is always hurt, and shot poorly last year.

ah, my mantra gains some traction!

alas not in the front office where it matters.

[Bricklayer]

This is second year in a row that we are surprised how our off season acquisitions are not as good as we thought.
Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes and now JJ.
Either it is Indian burrial ground that makes roleplayers forget how to shoot, or there is something else.
I would argue about something else.
Key word here is Roleplayers.
What use is role player without role?
If those folks can do bunch of stuff well, they would not be role players anymore.
You do not see Sefoloshas and Battiers of the world handling the ball, having ISOs for them etc. They have role of defensive spot up shooter.
Specialization that role provides makes them able to focus on skills needed instead of wasting energy on stuff that team does not need.

I strongly doubt that Bowen Sefolosha Battier... If they were with our team in their prime, would be as effective as they were on their respective structured teams.

In short, the lack of structure and stability affects role players more than "stars", and that is what we are seeing.

and look at that, two spot on posts in one thread. amongst all the silliness we sometimes have to endure, a breath of fresh air.

[Padrino]

This is second year in a row that we are surprised how our off season acquisitions are not as good as we thought.
Salmons, Outlaw, Hayes and now JJ.
Either it is Indian burrial ground that makes roleplayers forget how to shoot, or there is something else.
I would argue about something else.
Key word here is Roleplayers.
What use is role player without role?
If those folks can do bunch of stuff well, they would not be role players anymore.
You do not see Sefoloshas and Battiers of the world handling the ball, having ISOs for them etc. They have role of defensive spot up shooter.
Specialization that role provides makes them able to focus on skills needed instead of wasting energy on stuff that team does not need.

I strongly doubt that Bowen Sefolosha Battier... If they were with our team in their prime, would be as effective as they were on their respective structured teams.

In short, the lack of structure and stability affects role players more than "stars", and that is what we are seeing.

bravo.