Race for ROY - revised title

[NME]

Hamilton/Billups were about 20/18 a couple times and a shade less for a few low-scoring pace teams.

[Bricklayer]

Hamilton/Billups were about 20/18 a couple times and a shade less for a few low-scoring pace teams.

Yeah, checked that early -- Billups actually only averaged more than 17ppg 1 season, and that was 18.5 in 05/06. Hamilton barely snuck over wiht 20.1 that year.

Parker and Ginobili only had one remotely close call with Manu's careeh high 19.5 and Parker's 18.8.

But all those type examples remian a good 5pts/player off of what we are proposing with Kevin and Reke.

[hrdboild]

Having Martin pick his spots and scale back his scoring to the 17 or 18ppg range is probably the best thing for his overall game. Even if he's not the one taking the final shot, he's going to spread the floor and attract attention because he can make open shots. His role would be similar to the one Ray Allen played in Boston the year they won the championship. And he's going to have to concede the leading scorer role and the majority of the crunch-time shots to Reke.

I'm not as worried as some about Martin's ability to adapt. I'm more worried about there being less minutes for Casspi and Greene who seem to be flourishing with a bigger role. When Garcia comes back it gets even tougher. And both Greene and Casspi could soon grow into the second scorer role that Martin would play. All in all it seems like the team as a whole would benefit most from trading Martin for a frontcourt player. We have a lot of young talent and most of it is concentrated on the perimeter.

[dbfish]

The race for ROY is Quickly turning into the race for runner up ROY.

Remember Blake Griffin? The Clipper curse is in effect. They say he's coming back, but he's never really been here. Start combing the La Brea Tar Pits.

[LoungeLizard]

I cannot recall the last instance of 2 true 20+pt scorers in an NBA backcourt, let alone two 23+pt scorers in an NBA backcourt. If there is one its probably a smallball scenario. And its not because nobody has ever tried or its such a unique idea. Its because it doesn't work, and frankly even if you could get the guards to somehow work together, too much of your scoring would be coming from outside. Something will have to give. Reke's Roy campaign may well depend on it being the veteran. On Kevin basically backing all the way off to 18-20ppg spot shooter/fast break scorer.

As an aside, Reke's last 10 games:
23.2pts (.506 .238 .825) 5.5reb 5.8ast

Run TMC....Hardaway, The Rock and Mullin all averaged 20+ points for 3 straight years IIRC, but that's Don Nelson for ya.

[DocHolliday]

The race for ROY is Quickly turning into the race for runner up ROY.

Remember Blake Griffin? The Clipper curse is in effect. They say he's coming back, but he's never really been here. Start combing the La Brea Tar Pits.

Are you saying that if Griffin comes back let's say mid season, or close to that somehow he will sky rocket to being #1 for ROY almost instantaneously?

Griffin so far is unproven in the NBA, and it will take him some time to fully recover from his knee injury, aka the rest of this season and off season to feel 100% by next season most likely, and if he plays this year he won't be 100% most likley.

Even if he was who has more affect on an entire team, a PG, or a PF? Both can have an affect on a team, but if all the other pieces won't be as good unless you have a good PG orchestrating it. Even if Blake had been playing this entire season so far, I think we'd still be talking about Reke at #1 and Blake and Jennings flip flopping between 2 and 3.

[hrdboild]

Are you saying that if Griffin comes back let's say mid season, or close to that somehow he will sky rocket to being #1 for ROY almost instantaneously?

Griffin so far is unproven in the NBA, and it will take him some time to fully recover from his knee injury, aka the rest of this season and off season to feel 100% by next season most likely, and if he plays this year he won't be 100% most likley.

Even if he was who has more affect on an entire team, a PG, or a PF? Both can have an affect on a team, but if all the other pieces won't be as good unless you have a good PG orchestrating it. Even if Blake had been playing this entire season so far, I think we'd still be talking about Reke at #1 and Blake and Jennings flip flopping between 2 and 3.

Well it's a huge hypothetical anyway, Blake Griffin's return. Like you said, most likely there's a long adjustment period after a surgery that serious so he won't be 100% maybe until next season. If he comes back and puts up say 25 and 12 and looks great doing it he could possibly steal the ROY award with only half a season's worth of play, but the odds of that happening are something like 1%. I don't think he was all-that to begin with.

As Evans and Jennings settle into their roles a little bit more, it's starting to become more clear what each of them will be in the league. Jennings helps his team out a lot even when his shooting percentages are down, but he's not going to take over games and win them all by himself regularly. He's going to be an elite PG for sure, but probably not the franchise guy for them. Evans, on the other hand, is already showing that he can be the go-to scorer in the fourth quarter. He's already very close to Brandon Roy level as a finisher and could be there by the end of the year. That's very very good. That's top 10 in the league good. Even if the ROY race ends up being a toss-up (which I still think it will be) I'm becoming more and more convinced that Tyreke will be the better player long term.

[upinsmoke]

If he continues to ball this good all year there is no reason why he is not ROY. In fact I know myself its a long shot because the west is so good but if the Kings make the playoffs couldn't you make argument that he is the mvp lol.

[Telemachus]

And yet they weren't even close to what we are proposing really. Two 18ppg scorers and Dantley was a SF. Pretty similar to the modern Detroit incarnation really.

My own candidates were KJ/Hornacek, but the only year Hornacek barely snuck over 20 (20.1) KJ ended at 19.7 (and Hornacek was traded durng the offseason for Barkely). The Monroe/Frazier duo, whihc as mentioend did it all of once in 74/75. Run TMC, which also did it once, the year before Mitch was traded to us. And then having to go all the way back to the early 70s Lakers with West/Goodrich, who did it three times, asuming you did not call West a SF. And frankly those early examples come from different eras in basketball when scoring was considerably higher than it is today. The other thing is you look at those pairings, and Mitch, who was a good passer, was the worst passer of any of the SGs involved. They were all combo guards. All guys who ran point from time to time and so could keep the rest of the team at least somewhat involved. Trying to have such a duo centered around just scoring would kill your ball movement and trash the rest of your team. Right now when Reke doesn't have the ball Beno or Sergio often do, off on the other side of the court running a play with their teammates. Everybody stays involved.

I did a little searching based somewhat on my memory, and came up with the following. I also listed some SFs as well to help with the discussion.

88-89 Denver Nuggets
Michael Adams - 18.5 pts
Fat Lever - 19.8 pts
Alex English - 26.5 pts

88-89 LA Lakers
Magic Johnson - 22.5 pts
Byron Scott - 19.6 pts
James Worthy - 20.5 pts

90-91 GS Warriors
Tim Hardaway - 22.9 pts
Mitch Richmond - 23.9 pts
Chris Mullin - 25.7 pts

90-91 Portland Trailblazers
Terry Porter - 17.0 pts
Clyde Drexler - 21.5 pts

91-92 Portland Trailblazers
Terry Porter - 18.1 pts
Clyde Drexler - 25.0 pts

91-92 GS Warriors
Tim Hardaway - 23.4 pts
Marciulonis - 18.9 pts
Chris Mullin - 25.6 pts

I stopped looking after that, and didn't go back further than 88-89. I know that the combination of Fat Lever, Michael Adams and Alex Enlish put up a lot of points in the 80s. Denver always seemed to average around 115-120 pts a game back then to lead the league.

[dbfish]

Are you saying that if Griffin comes back let's say mid season, or close to that somehow he will sky rocket to being #1 for ROY almost instantaneously?

Griffin so far is unproven in the NBA, and it will take him some time to fully recover from his knee injury, aka the rest of this season and off season to feel 100% by next season most likely, and if he plays this year he won't be 100% most likley.

Even if he was who has more affect on an entire team, a PG, or a PF? Both can have an affect on a team, but if all the other pieces won't be as good unless you have a good PG orchestrating it. Even if Blake had been playing this entire season so far, I think we'd still be talking about Reke at #1 and Blake and Jennings flip flopping between 2 and 3.

No. I'm saying that if Tyreke keeps going the way he has been it will be hard for anybody to keep up with him for ROY.

[Bricklayer]

http://www.nba.com/rookies/ still #1, Omri #5.

[Section 101]

I did a little searching based somewhat on my memory, and came up with the following. I also listed some SFs as well to help with the discussion.

88-89 Denver Nuggets
Michael Adams - 18.5 pts
Fat Lever - 19.8 pts
Alex English - 26.5 pts

88-89 LA Lakers
Magic Johnson - 22.5 pts
Byron Scott - 19.6 pts
James Worthy - 20.5 pts

90-91 GS Warriors
Tim Hardaway - 22.9 pts
Mitch Richmond - 23.9 pts
Chris Mullin - 25.7 pts

90-91 Portland Trailblazers
Terry Porter - 17.0 pts
Clyde Drexler - 21.5 pts

91-92 Portland Trailblazers
Terry Porter - 18.1 pts
Clyde Drexler - 25.0 pts

91-92 GS Warriors
Tim Hardaway - 23.4 pts
Marciulonis - 18.9 pts
Chris Mullin - 25.6 pts

I stopped looking after that, and didn't go back further than 88-89. I know that the combination of Fat Lever, Michael Adams and Alex Enlish put up a lot of points in the 80s. Denver always seemed to average around 115-120 pts a game back then to lead the league.

04/05 Wizards.
Arenas 25.5
Hughes 22.0
Jamison 19.6

08/09 Mavs
Dirk 25.9 (primary scorer taking shots from guards)
Terry 19.6
Howard 18.0

06/07 Suns
Amare 20.4 (primary scorer taking shots from guards)
Nash 18.6
Barbosa 18.1

06/07 bucks
Redd 26.7
Williams 17.3

02/03 bucks
Allen 21.3/Payton 19.6 (traded fo each other)
Cassell 19.7

[captain bill]

Tyreke through the first half tonight: 11 pts on 4/8 shooting, 6 ast/3 tos, 4 rebs and a block

Jennings through an entire game: 11 pts 4/11 (1/5 threes!), 7ast/1to, 3 reb

[hrdboild]

Milwaukee didn't play Jennings for most of the fourth quarter or at all in overtime which is confusing to me since he's been their crunch-time guy this year. And it wasn't like Luke Ridnour was killing it this game. I didn't see it on TV so I don't know if maybe he got injured or something.

But anyway, that matchup we've all been waiting for is coming up on Saturday so we'll see who comes out on top head-to-head.

Wow. Bucks fans are none too happy with the end-game ref calls on that one.

[Uncia03]

On Friday's PTI during Odd's Maker the question was asked:

Chances that Tyreke wins Rookie of the Year:

Kornheiser gave 90% Chance
Wilbon gave 99% Chance

PTI had Brandon Jennings on their show two weeks ago or so, so it's great that the national media is seeing the same things we are.

I hope Tyreke is able to prove his case by dominating Jennings tonight.