The great opportunity for Jimmer occurred when Thornton went down with injury. Jimmer ended up with a lot of pt, but he didn't produce like I (or apparently Smart) thought he would. That's why he's not playing. He had his shot and he didn't make the most of it. Doesn't mean that his future is doomed. It just means he's got to get better and prepare for his next shot at getting pt.
I thought Jimmer showed a lot of good stuff last night. If he string more of these together and against both good and bad opponents - who knows, he may get his wings yet.
someone correct me if I'm wrong but Lin rode the bench in NY until they had absolutely no choice but to play him in a crisis.
It's not like D'antoni immediately recognised this kid was WOWWOWWOW.
It's usually the Jimmer lovers who bring up Lin as some parallell to whats happening to JF but it's just not true.
Jimmer didnt get any more playing time then he does now when thornton went downOriginally Posted by Kingster
Not what the numbers say -- Jimmer's PT peaked in Dec when both Thornton and Reke were down, but his shooting percentages fell off after the hot start, and they just kept going down this month. He's shooting .415 again.
The thing is, his 3pt shooting has been consistent, and so have his FTs. The rest of his game has gone south though, and some of it may have been as teams readjusted to new and improved Jimmer. And here's the fallout -- early season Jimmer was making an argument that hey, I can be a rotation player. Ever since then Jimmer looks like a shooting situation/foul game specialist.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities." --Albert Einstein
"Petrie signings are more akin to the splash you get when you accidentally drop your toothbrush in the toilet. " -- swisshh
Just for fun you should fun some per 36 for Jimmer, Tyreke, Brooks, and IT. Include thing like true shooting percentages and assist to to.
That is classically how per 36 gets abused.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities." --Albert Einstein
"Petrie signings are more akin to the splash you get when you accidentally drop your toothbrush in the toilet. " -- swisshh
You're right, this fun IS fun!
Per-36 points: Jimmer (19.6), Tyreke (17.6), Thomas (17.4), Brooks (14.0). Chalk one up for Jimmer.
Per-36 assists: Thomas (4.8), Brooks (4.1), Tyreke (3.7), Jimmer (3.4). Oops. Sad face for Jimmer.
Per-36 rebounds: Tyreke (5.7), Brooks (2.9), Thomas (2.6), Jimmer (2.5). Uh-oh. Another Jimmer sad face.
Per-36 steals: Tyreke (1.6), Brooks (1.0), Thomas (1.0), Jimmer (0.9). The sad faces keep coming!
Assist-to-TO: Thomas (1.85), Brooks (1.78), Tyreke (1.48), Jimmer (1.42). Gee, I sure hope Jimmer can pull himself up at the end!
True Shooting%: Brooks (.571), Jimmer (.559), Thomas (.556), Tyreke (0.551). Well, I guess that's something.
So, per minute Jimmer is basically our worst guard on the season. Hey, I'd like to see him do great but right now it's not really happening.
PER
Tyreke Evans 18.3
Jimmer Fredette 16.5
Isaiah Thomas 15.4
Marcus Thornton 14.5
Aaron Brooks 12.9
All in all you're just another brick in the wall. - Pink Floyd
This is really just showing you the differences based on the role they play - SG vs PG: 1) Jimmer and Reke are pretty close to AB / Brooks in assists even though they rarely play point... that's a sad face for AB & IT. 2) The Jimmer to AB & IT rebounding discrepancy is hardly enough to get crazy about. 3) Steals, again, .9 to 1? That's a difference of about 1 extra steal about every 10 games. 4) Assist-to-TO. This is similar to my first point - Jimmer and Reke are SG's first. They shouldn't be held accountable to the same standard for assists as the PG, so this is actually another sad face for IT/AB. What this tells me is that Jimmer is our second best SG, and a slightly better scorer than IT or Brooks.
I'm not sure many would argue with that assessment.
The point really was that Liam tried to buff up Jimmer by pointing to per-36 stats, A/T, and TS% -- without actually looking at the stats! As it turns out, yes Jimmer is a scorer first (and we knew that), but he's not better than our other guys at anything else per-36. In fact, he ranks last among the group that Liam suggested he would compare well against. The only other area where Jimmer comes out OK is TS%, but he's a clear second and doesn't have a huge separation over IT/Tyreke.
In the end, if you're going to point at stats to make an argument, you'd better have a good idea what the stats actually say, or you'll end up looking silly.
In this case any of the "advanced" stats don't say much anyway. Like all of their breed they can't take into account role, time stats were put up, or any of the rest. Advanced stats will tell you Aaron Brooks and Jimmer have nearly identical TS% to Kyrie Irving too. Most advanced stats have the primary purpose of exalting three point chuckers and good free throw shooters. Used wrongly, which they almost inevitably are, they will tell you many many stupid things.
You of course know this -- my comment was general.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities." --Albert Einstein
"Petrie signings are more akin to the splash you get when you accidentally drop your toothbrush in the toilet. " -- swisshh
Yeah, both Jimmer and Thornton are the type of players that sometimes need to take several shots before they get into a grove. Actually, most players that are scorers are that way. I remember many games when Peja went 1 for 8 in the first half, and then hit 7 of 8 in the second half. The key, is to feed them once they get hot. If a player is a 42% shooter from the three, he'll usually hit that average in most games if given enough shots. But if you put him in the game, and he goes 1 for 4, and then you jerk him for the rest of the game, his stat line isn't going to look that good.
In last nights game, Thornton couldn't hit a thing in the first half, and scored almost all his points in the second half. If he hadn't played in the second half, he would have had a miserable night. Still wasn't that good going 4 for 12.
Its hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
Let me ask you this. How much of how he's being used has to do with some of his poor stats. For instance, Both Brooks and IT are always the lead guards when in the game, which means they tend to have the ball in their hands far more than Jimmer does when he's in the game. This last game is more of an example of how Jimmers assists might go up, if he's the lead guard on the floor. He has a better chance to create plays for other people. he had 4 assists last night in 14 minutes. Not earth shattering, but he could have had 7 assist if shots had been made. Point is, he was making good decisions and on occasion, helping to create for a teammate. If his assists were to go up, then so would his assist to turnover ratio, because is turnovers per minutes played is one of the best on the team.
I'll certainly give you the rebounding per 36. I doubt Jimmer will ever be a good rebounder, but I can name you a lot of good PG's in the league that aren't good rebounders. Anyway, thats my 2 cents for what its worth.
Its hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
I feel like the only way to really see the comparison would be if Smart were to give Jimmer Starter minutes like IT currently has and Brooks had earlier this year. Having said that, it's not happening anytime soon. Even though Jimmer seems to have leaped AB in the rotation for a couple of games, if IT went down my money would be on Brooks as the starter. In fact, the funny thing about Jimmer's play time is that even when he's the first back-up for a starter, he doesn't get a start when a player goes out. He gets more minutes of course, but I think Smart is settled on Jimmer off the bench no matter the situation. I'm convinced that if you had Reke / IT / Brooks all out, you would still have MT at the SG position and probably Salmons at PG to start (didn't that happen this year?).
indeed, however, jimmer fredette is clearly the biggest ball-handling liability of the bunch, which likely accounts for keith smart's insistence on playing jimmer as either a backup PG or SG. either way, i continue to be amazed by the amount of handwringing that occurs at kf.com over which mediocre midget guard deserves preferential status in the absurdity of smart's "rotation."
SACRAMENTO KINGS -- est. 1985, reborn 2013
In my case, its not handringing. Its about who might be the most complimentry player at the PG position. You know, someone that might actually be out there trying to make his teammates better. Now if IT can play the way he did last night, most nights, then I don't have a problem with him. All Brooks is, is a midget SG. Not saying he doesn't have the ability to create, he just chooses not to. And to be clear, I'm not saying that Jimmer is our saviour. I just think that since the season is pretty much shot to hell, why not find out what he's actually capable of as a lead guard, instead of giving him 10 minutes a game and letting him stand on the right or left wing waiting for someone to pass him the ball.
He had a chance last night to be the lead guard, and although he keeps being accused of being a chucker, he certainly wasn't one last night. he took 4 shots, and one, a three pointer he had to take because the clock was running down. He's being several million dollars a year, so why not find out what he's got. He got a chance last night, and we won the game despite his being in the game, and maybe, at least to some extent, because he was in the game.
Its hard to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
i suppose that's the difference between myself and many other posters here: i do not believe that anyone in the kings' stable of guards is a stabilizing force in the starting lineup, save perhaps john salmons (you certainly would not have heard that from me prior to the start of the season). i've beaten this drum often enough, but a guard like beno udrih is much more complimentary next to tyreke evans than the kings' corps of midget gunners. sure, there's the outside chance that starting jimmer over thomas or brooks or thornton would result in a net positive for the chemistry of the starting unit, but i find such a move wanting as a long-term solution. so, to me, the offseason is the time to address the disease, rather than the symptoms, and hopefully there will be a new ownership group in sacramento prepared to take on the challenge of tackling this mess of a roster...
SACRAMENTO KINGS -- est. 1985, reborn 2013
Where we disagree, is not that Jimmer is less of a chucker than IT or Brooks, which I think he is, but that he'd be better as a complimentary player at the PG position as the primary ballhandler. I don't think he would, but I also wouldn't be against starting him.
IMO, Jimmer is best when handling the ball maybe 30% of the time, and playing off Reke, who's show more of an inclination to set him up than any other guards on this team. He also spaces the floor for Reke/Cuz better than IT/Brooks. While Brooks is a decent shooter, IT is horrible. But as the main ballhandler, I don't think Jimmer would be put in a position to be successful. His ballhandling has improved, but he still has trouble setting up the offense and rarely penetrates and kicks to anyone.
But as a PG who handles less than Reke, and more plays off him? I'd be willing to try it. One thing Jimmer won't do is prevent Reke/Cuz from getting into a rhythm, which IT does nightly. Even when his assist numbers are decent he's still dominating the ball to such a point those two can't get in a rhythm. What we've seen in the short stretches Reke/Jimmer have played together, is if you put Reke up top with a live dribble looking to attack, and put Jimmer on a wing and Reke attacks that side, Jimmer's man can't come off and help without the opponent paying for it, leaving a wider lane for Reke to attack, and if/when Jimmer's man does come off to help, Reke has been more than willing to hit Jimmer. Cuz also gets more room to operate and doesn't have to worry about doubles coming from the wing as much when we've ran a Jimmer/Reke/Salmons trio, rare as its been. We have wider lanes to attack and better spacing when Jimmer is out there.
Edit: Really, a simple set to run which would be more effective than half the crap we run, is say put Jimmer spotted up on the right wing, below the elbow, Reke up top handling, JT on the left box and Salmons spotted on the left wing farther towards the corner. Cuz comes up and sets a screen on the right side, and you have a Reke/Cuz pick & roll with the floor properly spaced. They'd have room. Reke comes off the screen and either has a lane to the hoop as Jimmer's man stays home, it's switched putting the big on Reke, small on Cuz, so Reke either hits Cuz rolling or if that's not there he backs it out as Cuz dives to right box with a small on him, gets it to Cuz(obvious mismatch), or when coming off the screen Jimmers man helps and you hit Jimmer for a quick, good look at a three. Or Reke gets cut off by the big, or small fights through, defender dives to stop Cuz role and he spots up for a 16 footer above the left elbow. You can run that through and have JT flash in the post or Cuz draws Salmons' man if they load up and and a quick swing to the corner for an open look by Salmons. Hit Cuz above the left elbow then Reke goes and screens Jimmer's man as he curls either for a jumper or a runner in the lane, which is a good shot for him. Could run another similar set with similar options with the right side cleared for a Reke/Cuz pick & roll and Jimmer at the top of the key.
There's numerous variations off that set but I think you get the point. We have most of the floor cleared out for a two man game between our best players and Jimmer spotted on that side, not only providing spacing and a lane, but someone who should be able to make the other team pay for sagging off and closing down that lane. And you run it over and over and take what the defense gives you. However they react gives you another option. A good option because the spacing forces the defense to move. What we normally see is IT just dribbling, then feeding Cuz or JT in the high post and they just iso with everyone watching, or we run Reke/MT/Salmons/even Outlaw off a simple screen and just watch as they iso. Or It comes off a single screen, passes to someone on the wing, then iso. IT's TERRIBLE.<-----it's terrible, not Isaiah
What I'd like is not much different than a set Boston would run repeatedly with Rondo/KG and either Allen/Pierce spotted to Rondo's right.
Of course, that requires a different coach.
Last edited by rainmaker; 01-30-2013 at 12:38 AM.
“Sacramento is where I want to be,’’ he said. “I want to bring the organization back, help the organization get started back winning. I love the city of Sacramento. That’s where I want to be. End of story. “We can dig a hole, throw that topic in there, cover it with dirt, pack it down. I want to be in Sacramento. End of story.’’ -DeMarcus Cousins
Our franchise literally is about to rise from the ashes.
^^^Yes, I agree with this. Now why can't Smart figure this out?
Last edited by sqwalk; 01-29-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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