Terrible Players, Or Terrible Use of our Players?

[Padrino]

You are giving him way too much credit for his court vision. It's not very good at all. And who cares if Evans is 20/5/5 if the team still sucks? If every other player has to suffer to get Evans his 20/5/5 then that will never be a recipe for success. Remember when the team was trying to get him the 20-5-5 at the end of his rookie year? The team was just terrible. I don't want to see that happen again.

I agree with you on the Beno thing but no matter how well they played together the team was still terrible. I think that trade was the dumbest thing we could have ever done, and if Petrie and the Maloofs cannot find a player to fit with Reke as well as Beno did after three years then they need to get rid of Evans or the GM.

while we agree about the beno trade, overall you have such limited evaluation skills its embarrassing for you. yes, "the team sucks." yes, "the team was still terrible." but what of it? are you just entirely daft to the nature of rebuilds in the contemporary nba? by your logic, the thunder should have traded russell westbrook after his rookie season. i mean, ****, 15 points on 40% shooting, 27% from three, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists per game, with limited court vision, a selfish streak, and a penchant for driving into traffic? trade him!!!!! "the team was terrible!!!!!" they were 23-59!!!!! and this was in kevin durant's second season!!!!!! get rid of them all, i say!!!!!!!!!



as with westbrook, evans is a clear #2 in the pecking order, but he's a much better two-way player than westbrook, and yes, with better court vision. it's as if you literally don't see what occurs on the court, like you've got a single negative image from tyreke evans' rookie season lodged firmly in your memory, and you refuse to replace it with more relevant ones. in a recent example that acts as evidence of his improvement:



in the video above, at :25, evans draws the defense and kicks out to aaron brooks for an open three. at :35, evans dishes to salmons on the break, resulting in a layup. at 1:02, he makes the smart play down low to a cutting jason thompson, who proceeds to blow what should have been a dunk. at 2:53, he posts up his man, and with the floor spaced well, he dishes outside to aaron brooks for three, signalling a chemistry we've seen develop in recent weeks. at 3:05, he makes the smart, simple pass to demarcus cousins for an open jumper. at 3:23, we see a perfectly executed pick and roll between demarcus and tyreke, with 'reke delivering the ball exactly where it needed to be, signalling the chemistry we've seen develop between the kings' two strongest talents every now and then (when keith smart elects to run plays for them in the two-man game). all of these plays necessitate some level of court vision, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not...

in the same video above, at :45, evans pulls up for the jumper off the dribble and drills it, precisely the kind of shot from evans that we have all been clamoring for. and, at 2:21, we have some hero ball on display. the kings run their infamous 1-4 flat, and instead of driving into what would quickly become a crowded paint, evans pulls up for another jumper, and drills it before the quarter expires. he has a slight fade on both of these jump shots, but he pulls up in control, the ball leaves his hands with excellent rotation, and he follows through. there is confidence in his form, and confidence in his shot. at 2:40, we see a well-run play in which brooks swings the ball to evans for the catch-and-shoot three pointer, and he drills it again. looked as pretty against the jazz as it did even more recently when salmons hit tyreke on the same play two times down the court for back-to-back threes against the raptors. that's jump shooting success off the dribble and off-the-ball, the kind of versatility evans has constantly been advertised as possessing, but hasn't always delivered. at 3:45, evans even displays a tear-drop layup that would be a tremendous asset to his driving game if he practices it consistently. these are all marked and obvious improvements, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. and it's only from a single game. i could do the same run down in any of the last ten games and you'd see a version of tyreke evans that simply does not fit your description of him, and for the better...

but then again, it was never tyreke's job to impress you. it's his job to play an excellent all-around game in which he puts points on the board, shores up some of the team's rebounding weaknesses, plays great defense, and gets his teammates involved. geezus, even early on it was clear that tyreke could see the floor, could deliver the timely pass exactly where it needed to go (and in occasionally stunning fashion):





edit: continued in next post, because the board will only let me post five videos at a time.

[Padrino]

cont: i am also quite certain that you will come up with some truly shortsighted and pitiable excuse to dismiss evans' improvement, because being right about evans seems to be much more important to you than his or the kings' success. but here's the rub, friend: the question is not whether evans can effectively run an offense. he very clearly can. he always could. it's as clear as day, and you're wearing the guinness book of world records' largest pair of blinders to miss it. the question actually is (and has always been) whether or not 'reke would ever trust his teammates enough to make the smart passes on a consistent basis. the jury's still out on that one, but there are a slew of recent examples that point in a positive, forward-moving direction. evans shows a significant amount of trust in his volatile, inconsistent teammate, demarcus cousins, and is getting the big man the ball where he needs it:



and cousins is, in turn, learning to trust evans:



if you give these two players time, their recent history shows all-star level talents able to dominate the opposition together. and, once again, it's not all about offense. evans' consistently exceptional defensive effort this season should not go overlooked. amend: it cannot go overlooked when evaluating evans' improvement thus far this season. he is the kings best two way player by a mile, and has the potential to be an all-defensive first team selection in the future, if he continues to play at a high level on the other side of the ball:



despite his recent stretch of great play, the possibility is still very real that you will get your wish, that the kings will trade tyreke evans, or simply fail to step to the plate and re-sign him in the offseason. such a move will not validate you, of course, as the kings' decision-making as a franchise has been rather poor of late, wouldn't you say? it'd be a mistake to trade a player of tyreke evans' talent and potential unless you can get an all-star in return. since the likelihood of that happening is slim to none, i expect the kings would receive the kind of "movable pieces" and middling draft picks they love so much in a hypothetical evans trade, and i expect evans would go on to find success in a city more willing to appreciate his talent...

[Shabazz916]

Tyreke should be the main option because he draws attention to get ppl open. And cousins the number two because he forces shots & does stupid stuff. Thorton the james harden role. And they should be more movement without the ball. Along with pick & rolls because are pick & rolls look so plain because everybody is just standing around.

[mac]

while we agree about the beno trade, overall you have such limited evaluation skills its embarrassing for you. yes, "the team sucks." yes, "the team was still terrible." but what of it? are you just entirely daft to the nature of rebuilds in the contemporary nba? by your logic, the thunder should have traded russell westbrook after his rookie season. i mean, ****, 15 points on 40% shooting, 27% from three, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists per game, with limited court vision, a selfish streak, and a penchant for driving into traffic? trade him!!!!! "the team was terrible!!!!!" they were 23-59!!!!! and this was in kevin durant's second season!!!!!! get rid of them all, i say!!!!!!!!!



as with westbrook, evans is a clear #2 in the pecking order, but he's a much better two-way player than westbrook, and yes, with better court vision. it's as if you literally don't see what occurs on the court, like you've got a single negative image from tyreke evans' rookie season lodged firmly in your memory, and you refuse to replace it with more relevant ones. in a recent example that acts as evidence of his improvement:



in the video above, at :25, evans draws the defense and kicks out to aaron brooks for an open three. at :35, evans dishes to salmons on the break, resulting in a layup. at 1:02, he makes the smart play down low to a cutting jason thompson, who proceeds to blow what should have been a dunk. at 2:53, he posts up his man, and with the floor spaced well, he dishes outside to aaron brooks for three, signalling a chemistry we've seen develop in recent weeks. at 3:05, he makes the smart, simple pass to demarcus cousins for an open jumper. at 3:23, we see a perfectly executed pick and roll between demarcus and tyreke, with 'reke delivering the ball exactly where it needed to be, signalling the chemistry we've seen develop between the kings' two strongest talents every now and then (when keith smart elects to run plays for them in the two-man game). all of these plays necessitate some level of court vision, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not...

in the same video above, at :45, evans pulls up for the jumper off the dribble and drills it, precisely the kind of shot from evans that we have all been clamoring for. and, at 2:21, we have some hero ball on display. the kings run their infamous 1-4 flat, and instead of driving into what would quickly become a crowded paint, evans pulls up for another jumper, and drills it before the quarter expires. he has a slight fade on both of these jump shots, but he pulls up in control, the ball leaves his hands with excellent rotation, and he follows through. there is confidence in his form, and confidence in his shot. at 2:40, we see a well-run play in which brooks swings the ball to evans for the catch-and-shoot three pointer, and he drills it again. looked as pretty against the jazz as it did even more recently when salmons hit tyreke on the same play two times down the court for back-to-back threes against the raptors. that's jump shooting success off the dribble and off-the-ball, the kind of versatility evans has constantly been advertised as possessing, but hasn't always delivered. at 3:45, evans even displays a tear-drop layup that would be a tremendous asset to his driving game if he practices it consistently. these are all marked and obvious improvements, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. and it's only from a single game. i could do the same run down in any of the last ten games and you'd see a version of tyreke evans that simply does not fit your description of him, and for the better...

but then again, it was never tyreke's job to impress you. it's his job to play an excellent all-around game in which he puts points on the board, shores up some of the team's rebounding weaknesses, plays great defense, and gets his teammates involved. geezus, even early on it was clear that tyreke could see the floor, could deliver the timely pass exactly where it needed to go (and in occasionally stunning fashion):





edit: continued in next post, because the board will only let me post five videos at a time.

There is so much win in this post.

[ppine]

After three wins in a row, much of this debate is moot. The Kings have enough talent to win half the time. They need to wake up and play with intensity all the time. Transition defense, push the ball, pass on offense, move without the ball and play intense defense. Emphasize defensive rebounding. They have done all of these things lately.

[HighFlyingMonkey]

It feels like Cousins has woke up in the last few games, thats why we have been successful. Tyreke needs to come back playing like he's been (I have no doubt he will), and we will have something special here. Doubly so if Marcus Thornton can break out of his slump.

[UK_King]

lets not get ahead of ourselves.

If we lose against Dallas it'll be Trade Cuz, Trade Reke, start Jimmer and Fire Smart.

[pshn80]

lets not get ahead of ourselves.

If we lose against Dallas it'll be Trade Cuz, Trade Reke, start Jimmer and Fire Smart.

Of course, ever thus. For many it beats the boredom of losing.

[The_Jamal]

Did I just read that someone thinks Tyreke is a better passer and two-way player than Westbrook?

Tyreke has had a great stretch of 7 games. Westbrook is a top 10-12 player who's one of the top perimeter defenders in the game. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

[HereWeVivek]

Did I just read that someone thinks Tyreke is a better passer and two-way player than Westbrook?

Tyreke has had a great stretch of 7 games. Westbrook is a top 10-12 player who's one of the top perimeter defenders in the game. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

idk what else was said in the comment that compared the two. but Tyreke IS a better passer than Westbrook.

[bajaden]

idk what else was said in the comment that compared the two. but Tyreke IS a better passer than Westbrook.

I hate these kind of comparisons, because everyone just wants to ignore results and make it a subjective argument. Fact: Tyreke averages 3.7 assists this year in 32 minutes a game. Fact: Westbrook averages 8.7 assists a game in 36 minutes a game. They both average around the same amout of rebounds a game. Tyreke is shooting 30% from the three, and Westbrook is shooting 36% from the three. They're both good players, but if I had to choose one over the other, I'm choosing Westbrook, and I don't mean that as a diss to Tyreke. There are times when both make bonehead plays, and times when both will make you jump out of your seat.

Now I know you can subjectively argue that Westbrook has better players on his team and therefore its easier for him to get assists. But then I've heard folks on this fourm argue that Rondo would make this team great despite the lack of effective scorers. So its a chicken or egg thing that no one can win.

[bajaden]

Who I wanted to talk about was Thornton. I went back and rewatched the Portland game. Particularly the second quarter when IT and Thornton both entered the game. Thornton was just terrible, and IT wasn't that much better. I'll give IT some props in the second half, where he did play better, but in the second quarter, both, particularly Thornton, had blinders on where their teammates were concerned. Lately, the odds of Thornton passing the ball once its in his hands are slim and none. I don't have a problem with him taking wide open shots, but a large majority of his shots are highly contested. But he just keeps on shooting. His current FGP is 40.3%, and his 3PP is 31.7%. If you take the last ten games, and throw out the Clipper game where he got hot in garbage time, his overall shooting percentage for those games is 37.8%, which is horrible.

His 3PP is just slightly above Tyreke's now, and at least Tyreke is shooting 45% overall. Now some of this is the other teams defense concentrating on him more than before. Especially with the second unit, when at times he should be the best scorer on the floor. But lot of it is him refusing to take off the blinders and pass the ball until he gets an open shot. Example: The last play of the Indiana game. Thornton was susposed to come off a screen and shoot a three. If the shot was highly contested, the second option was Jimmer on the right wing. Thornton came off the screen and had the shot contested by 7'2" Hibbert. Jimmer was wide open with no one near him on the right wing, and Thornton ignored him and threw up a prayer shot anyway.

Now there's no guarantee that Jimmer would have made the shot either, but the odds were a hell of lot better, and I don't care who it was on the wing, he should have gotten the ball. This isn't anything new for Thornton. This was the vive on him when we traded for him, and part of why he was on the block to begin with. His first year with us, his contract year I might add, he averaged 21 PPG along with 4.7 rebounds, and 3.4 assists. Everything has gone downhill since then, along with his minutes. One usually begets the other. This season he's averaging 2.9 rebounds and 1.4 assists. The trend is going the wrong way right now.

I don't have any answers for him, other than to engage his brain and try thinking like a team player instead of a hero. Someone compared him to being our James Harden. Right now, he's a long way from being anything near Harden.

[Bricklayer]

You can't compare Tyreke to Westbrook right now because Westbrook is a major star on maybe the favorites to win the title right now, and Reke is just rememerging/appearing to get his game back. You just can't.

But IF Tyreke keeps playing the way he has been playing, he is a star in his own right. And you know what? A BETTER defender than Westbrook (who rather notriously has lost his defensive focus). And also a guy who is going to be more efficient than Westbrook. I was checking my fantasy teams yesterday, and you know what Tyreke's shooting percentage is over the last month? Not last 6 games, but last full month? .498. Since Nov 5th, when Reke shot 1-9, the only two guards have shot better than him have been Tony Parker (at a ridiculous .563) and Thabo Seflaosha (.512), who gets spoonfed 6 shots a game. And with Reke's constant attacking game, he, like Wade, is a guy who could sustain very high efficiency over long periods of time. All that is yet to be seen of course, but its right there. So, let him do that all year, let us improve because of it, as we will if he sustains. Then we can begin to have a few conversatins about Reke and Westbrook. Not until then however.

[ppine]

It is worth pointing out that Cousins or Evans have been largely absent during all of the wins by the Kings this year. The abillity of these two players has not been the determing factor a lot of the time. It is a team game.

[Kingster]

Who I wanted to talk about was Thornton. I went back and rewatched the Portland game. Particularly the second quarter when IT and Thornton both entered the game. Thornton was just terrible, and IT wasn't that much better. I'll give IT some props in the second half, where he did play better, but in the second quarter, both, particularly Thornton, had blinders on where their teammates were concerned. Lately, the odds of Thornton passing the ball once its in his hands are slim and none. I don't have a problem with him taking wide open shots, but a large majority of his shots are highly contested. But he just keeps on shooting. His current FGP is 40.3%, and his 3PP is 31.7%. If you take the last ten games, and throw out the Clipper game where he got hot in garbage time, his overall shooting percentage for those games is 37.8%, which is horrible.

His 3PP is just slightly above Tyreke's now, and at least Tyreke is shooting 45% overall. Now some of this is the other teams defense concentrating on him more than before. Especially with the second unit, when at times he should be the best scorer on the floor. But lot of it is him refusing to take off the blinders and pass the ball until he gets an open shot. Example: The last play of the Indiana game. Thornton was susposed to come off a screen and shoot a three. If the shot was highly contested, the second option was Jimmer on the right wing. Thornton came off the screen and had the shot contested by 7'2" Hibbert. Jimmer was wide open with no one near him on the right wing, and Thornton ignored him and threw up a prayer shot anyway.

Now there's no guarantee that Jimmer would have made the shot either, but the odds were a hell of lot better, and I don't care who it was on the wing, he should have gotten the ball. This isn't anything new for Thornton. This was the vive on him when we traded for him, and part of why he was on the block to begin with. His first year with us, his contract year I might add, he averaged 21 PPG along with 4.7 rebounds, and 3.4 assists. Everything has gone downhill since then, along with his minutes. One usually begets the other. This season he's averaging 2.9 rebounds and 1.4 assists. The trend is going the wrong way right now.

I don't have any answers for him, other than to engage his brain and try thinking like a team player instead of a hero. Someone compared him to being our James Harden. Right now, he's a long way from being anything near Harden.

I did the same thing. Watched the Portland game, especially taking a look at Thornton and IT. Thornton is just flat out playing selfishly right now. On one play in the that second quarter instead of making the easy pass to IT for a three pointer he dribbles into three defenders, and then after being mobbed makes a dribble of pass over to IT which gets intercepted. Just absubd how bad that play is. What I've noticed over several games is too many instances in which Thornton either doesn't pass to a wide open teamate, or conversely, a teamate is not passing to a wide open Thornton.

IT played just about as badly in the second quarter. I continue to maintain that there is no way you should play IT if you have Hayes, Johnson and Robinson in the lineup. There is no space for him to operate. Same applies to Thornton. You can't just have two backcourt guys in the lineup who can shoot outside with three other non-offensive players. Smart finally saw that in the second quarter and put Outlaw in there in the second half. IT played much better in the second half.

I also think there is something else at play with IT: he's just not accepting Brooks being the starter. When Brooks played lousy at the beginning of a previous game (Orlando?), IT came in and played great. He probably figured that with Brooks playing so lousy he could really get to stay out on the court for a long time. And he was right. That's excactly what happened. Well, in the Portland game, Brooks played very well in the first quarter. Now IT probably figures he's got to play like the Second Coming in order to get big minutes because he's just giving Brooks a temporary blow. IT then proceeds to force things and play lousy. Smart later put him in in the second half with guys that spread the floor and I thought he played very well. So, those are the two things I see going on with him. One, he needs to play with other players that can spread the floor. Two, he's pressing in order to win minutes from Brooks.

[Padrino]

I did the same thing. Watched the Portland game, especially taking a look at Thornton and IT. Thornton is just flat out playing selfishly right now. On one play in the that second quarter instead of making the easy pass to IT for a three pointer he dribbles into three defenders, and then after being mobbed makes a dribble of pass over to IT which gets intercepted. Just absubd how bad that play is. What I've noticed over several games is too many instances in which Thornton either doesn't pass to a wide open teamate, or conversely, a teamate is not passing to a wide open Thornton.

IT played just about as badly in the second quarter. I continue to maintain that there is no way you should play IT if you have Hayes, Johnson and Robinson in the lineup. There is no space for him to operate. Same applies to Thornton. You can't just have two backcourt guys in the lineup who can shoot outside with three other non-offensive players. Smart finally saw that in the second quarter and put Outlaw in there in the second half. IT played much better in the second half.

I also think there is something else at play with IT: he's just not accepting Brooks being the starter. When Brooks played lousy at the beginning of a previous game (Orlando?), IT came in and played great. He probably figured that with Brooks playing so lousy he could really get to stay out on the court for a long time. And he was right. That's excactly what happened. Well, in the Portland game, Brooks played very well in the first quarter. Now IT probably figures he's got to play like the Second Coming in order to get big minutes because he's just giving Brooks a temporary blow. IT then proceeds to force things and play lousy. Smart later put him in in the second half with guys that spread the floor and I thought he played very well. So, those are the two things I see going on with him. One, he needs to play with other players that can spread the floor. Two, he's pressing in order to win minutes from Brooks.

i think this just highlights the difficulties in the kings' logjam of guards. something's gotta give. coach either needs to sack up and just bench one of them permanently (which he won't do), or the kings need to trade somebody. if they trade a player of minimal contract value like thomas or fredette, it's not even that important what they receive in return. sometimes the best move is simply shipping off a redundant piece so that the rotation can breathe a little better...

[Bricklayer]

I did the same thing. Watched the Portland game, especially taking a look at Thornton and IT. Thornton is just flat out playing selfishly right now. On one play in the that second quarter instead of making the easy pass to IT for a three pointer he dribbles into three defenders, and then after being mobbed makes a dribble of pass over to IT which gets intercepted. Just absubd how bad that play is. What I've noticed over several games is too many instances in which Thornton either doesn't pass to a wide open teamate, or conversely, a teamate is not passing to a wide open Thornton.

IT played just about as badly in the second quarter. I continue to maintain that there is no way you should play IT if you have Hayes, Johnson and Robinson in the lineup. There is no space for him to operate. Same applies to Thornton. You can't just have two backcourt guys in the lineup who can shoot outside with three other non-offensive players. Smart finally saw that in the second quarter and put Outlaw in there in the second half. IT played much better in the second half.

I also think there is something else at play with IT: he's just not accepting Brooks being the starter. When Brooks played lousy at the beginning of a previous game (Orlando?), IT came in and played great. He probably figured that with Brooks playing so lousy he could really get to stay out on the court for a long time. And he was right. That's excactly what happened. Well, in the Portland game, Brooks played very well in the first quarter. Now IT probably figures he's got to play like the Second Coming in order to get big minutes because he's just giving Brooks a temporary blow. IT then proceeds to force things and play lousy. Smart later put him in in the second half with guys that spread the floor and I thought he played very well. So, those are the two things I see going on with him. One, he needs to play with other players that can spread the floor. Two, he's pressing in order to win minutes from Brooks.

I agree with most of this except the IT as backup PG thing. If Thornton ever gets going, IT+Thornton is last year's starting backcourt the second half of the season. And we get them coming off the bench. And they were the starting backcourt playing alongside last year's Reke (i.i. no outside shooting), JT and Cuz. There's obviously a ton more firepower in Reke/JT/Cuz than there is in Johnson/TRob/Hayes, but that's almost universally true when you compare starters to benchers.

[twslam07]

I agree with most of this except the IT as backup PG thing. If Thornton ever gets going, IT+Thornton is last year's starting backcourt the second half of the season. And we get them coming off the bench. And they were the starting backcourt playing alongside last year's Reke (i.i. no outside shooting), JT and Cuz. There's obviously a ton more firepower in Reke/JT/Cuz than there is in Johnson/TRob/Hayes, but that's almost universally true when you compare starters to benchers.

Then let's not play all 5 bench players at once, Keith...

[HereWeVivek]

here's some interesting tweets from Carmichael Dave tonight.

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave
Speaking Kings- The fact that no fine/suspension/statement was announced on Cousins today reaffirms this is a rudderless ship.

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave
Seriously. Petrie has checked out. He's straight up Weekend At Bernie's. Maloofs aren't making B-ball decisions. It's a ghost town.

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave
Understand: THERE IS NOBODY RUNNING BASKETBALL OPS FOR THE SACRAMENTO KINGS. Amazing. It's like June for a high school senior.

[VF21]

here's some interesting tweets from Carmichael Dave tonight.

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave
Speaking Kings- The fact that no fine/suspension/statement was announced on Cousins today reaffirms this is a rudderless ship.

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave
Seriously. Petrie has checked out. He's straight up Weekend At Bernie's. Maloofs aren't making B-ball decisions. It's a ghost town.

Carmichael Dave ‏@CarmichaelDave
Understand: THERE IS NOBODY RUNNING BASKETBALL OPS FOR THE SACRAMENTO KINGS. Amazing. It's like June for a high school senior.

Sorry, but I'm not drinking the Carmichael Dave Kool-Aid, especially in regards to the first tweet. Why would the organization make a comment about a non-event? It seems to me more and more that Dave is becoming more about being the messenger and less about the message.