Grades v. Wolves 11/27/2012

[Kingster]

regarding thomas, i have to disagree. i cannot believe i'm about to say this, but i'd rather hand over his spot minutes to jimmer fredette, at this point. it was embarrassing to watch the t-pups' little white guy guards run circles around IT out there. for every shot he makes, he's giving up another two. brooks gets the nod next to tyreke in the starting lineup because they're slowly developing something that might someday be called "chemistry." not to mention brooks is a much better defender than thomas, and a more consistent outside shooter. jimmer's improving defensively, which is to say he occasionally manages to stay in front of his man. even thornton is showing some scrap on the defensive end. thomas' height is always gonna be a problem, but his foot speed should never be a problem. i don't know why he seems to be having so much trouble guarding players he should be able to keep up with of late. maybe you're right; being jerked around is likely having an effect on thomas' play. but defensively he's giving up too much, and that's a function of size, a factor that will not change. i mean, when i'm actively calling for jimmer effing fredette to receive minutes over isaiah thomas because of defensive issues, you know there's a serious problem...

edit: that said, when i say "spot minutes," i really mean spot minutes. neither fredette nor thomas should be playing more than fifteen minutes a night. smart should be riding evans, brooks, and thornton as hard as he can. evans received 36 minutes last night, which is a marked improvement on his total playing time. and the results have been there. hard to argue with that. but aaron brooks and marcus thornton each only played 26 minutes last night, while thomas played 21. get brooks back in the game earlier, and maybe the kings don't give up so much defensively. last night's game was lost on the boards, but even with that massive disparity, the kings were still in it at the end. they might have pulled out a win if they could have stopped the dribble penetration, which killed them all night long. i mean, why the hell is it that luke ridnour wrecks the kings every time we play him, no matter what team he's on? does somebody wanna guard this guy? tyreke can't cover the whole opposing backcourt by himself...

As I said in another post, I think ITs game has been affected by being jerked around, inconistent minutes, pressing to get playing time, and playing with a lineup that can't spread the floor (like last night with 3 guys who can't consistently shoot outside). Reynolds last night said that IT is trying to get "comfortable" in his back-up role. That's a euphemism if I ever heard it. From Day 1 he's been jerked around, and I thought he was heroic in maintaining his poise and mental toughness in getting yanked here and there and everywhere. Now he's finally broken down from the yanking and he needs to get his mojo back. If Smart needs to play 3 guys with him that can't spread the floor, then Smart should probably go with Jimmer, as he can shoot the ball from 30+ feet and can offset somewhat the pack-the-paint situation. The difference isn't major however; it wasn't that long ago that IT was hitting 43% in his 3s. I don't have any doubt in my mind that IT is the superior player to Jimmer, both on offense and defense, but sometimes it's not who is the superior player, it's who fits best.

[andremiller07]

Cuz should do two things this post season: work with Hakeem and go for anger management.

I agree but for this season I would like to see him do 2 things in the post, ethier catch it and go right away don't let the D set up (Zach Randoplh is a master of this) or use that baby half hook which has been MONEY for him like hes hit that 75% of the time this season he just barley goes to it and everytime he does it, it looks like a dominant move thats going in. To often when hes in the post he waits and waits and than tries a force (he doesn't go strong) instead of going to the baby hook. I can't beleive a guy with his touch and skill can't be more dominant in the post sometimes the worest thing that can happend for him is to hit his first couple of mid range shots.

[ESP47]

regarding thomas, i have to disagree. i cannot believe i'm about to say this, but i'd rather hand over his spot minutes to jimmer fredette, at this point. it was embarrassing to watch the t-pups' little white guy guards run circles around IT out there. for every shot he makes, he's giving up another two. brooks gets the nod next to tyreke in the starting lineup because they're slowly developing something that might someday be called "chemistry." not to mention brooks is a much better defender than thomas, and a more consistent outside shooter. jimmer's improving defensively, which is to say he occasionally manages to stay in front of his man. even thornton is showing some scrap on the defensive end. thomas' height is always gonna be a problem, but his foot speed should never be a problem. i don't know why he seems to be having so much trouble guarding players he should be able to keep up with of late. maybe you're right; being jerked around is likely having an effect on thomas' play. but defensively he's giving up too much, and that's a function of size, a factor that will not change. i mean, when i'm actively calling for jimmer effing fredette to receive minutes over isaiah thomas because of defensive issues, you know there's a serious problem...

edit: that said, when i say "spot minutes," i really mean spot minutes. neither fredette nor thomas should be playing more than fifteen minutes a night. smart should be riding evans, brooks, and thornton as hard as he can. evans received 36 minutes last night, which is a marked improvement on his total playing time. and the results have been there. hard to argue with that. but aaron brooks and marcus thornton each only played 26 minutes last night, while thomas played 21. get brooks back in the game earlier, and maybe the kings don't give up so much defensively. last night's game was lost on the boards, but even with that massive disparity, the kings were still in it at the end. they might have pulled out a win if they could have stopped the dribble penetration, which killed them all night long. i mean, why the hell is it that luke ridnour wrecks the kings every time we play him, no matter what team he's on? does somebody wanna guard this guy? tyreke can't cover the whole opposing backcourt by himself...

I only got to see the second half but Brooks was being worked by Ridnour out there. Once IT came in, their PG play disappeared. I thought IT played his best stretch of the season in the second half yesterday. Came in and knocked down baskets, got to the line, played good D and dished out assists. Yeah he had a couple of dumb plays but his positive plays outweighed the turnovers.

Brooks is not a better defender than IT. There may be off games where Brooks looks better but IT is far and away the best defending PG (not including Tyreke) that we've had in years.

[Padrino]

As I said in another post, I think ITs game has been affected by being jerked around, inconistent minutes, pressing to get playing time, and playing with a lineup that can't spread the floor (like last night with 3 guys who can't consistently shoot outside). Reynolds last night said that IT is trying to get "comfortable" in his back-up role. That's a euphemism if I ever heard it. From Day 1 he's been jerked around, and I thought he was heroic in maintaining his poise and mental toughness in getting yanked here and there and everywhere. Now he's finally broken down from the yanking and he needs to get his mojo back. If Smart needs to play 3 guys with him that can't spread the floor, then Smart should probably go with Jimmer, as he can shoot the ball from 30+ feet and can offset somewhat the pack-the-paint situation. The difference isn't major however; it wasn't that long ago that IT was hitting 43% in his 3s. I don't have any doubt in my mind that IT is the superior player to Jimmer, both on offense and defense, but sometimes it's not who is the superior player, it's who fits best.

well, in my opinion, the question is whether IT fits at all. same goes for jimmer. i'm not sold on either of them. but again, all i want is 10-15 solid minutes a night from one of them, so that evans, or brooks, or thornton can get a quick blow. if you could combine thomas and jimmer into one efficient super-guard off the bench, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, but both are deficient enough, in some physical way and in some defensive way, that i just don't see the need to play either of them extended minutes. evans, brooks, and thornton are all young enough to log 35-40 minutes a night in an 82 game season. hell, kobe bryant is routinely playing 40 minutes a night for the lakers as a 16-season nba veteran of 34 years of age. that said, i honestly do not believe we should be talking about which of fredette or thomas we should elevate. i believe we should be talking about how we can decrease our lineup's dependency on the shuffling of a buncha guards with redundant skill sets and redundant deficiencies. one must be benched. the other must have his minutes limited. it's that simple...

[kupman]

Pekovic had him man handled down low, pretty much stuck exclusively to the outside jumper.

This is not a knock on Cousins. Only Superman can handle this guy:

[gunks]

I'm just happy we still have our old Tyreke back, 2 weeks running. feels good. and his dunks seem sexier than they've ever been.

He's warming up for a new contract on a team that doesnt suck.

[mac]

Tyreke could have easily defended AK47 hes stronger and hes 6'7, Evans can defend any SF pretty much better than anyone on the roster (other than JJ maybe). If anything Salmons is way to undersized to be guarding SF's and doesn't contribue half the offence of MT. Salmons has struggled mightly against bigger SF's like Josh Smith, Prince and Ak47 where as Evans imo would be far better match up and most the time in the 4th Evans has fouls to give anyway.

Also wtf was up with playing zone? They were killing us on the boards and in a zone its even harder to box someone out and on top of that other than Petkovic that whole team is a bunch of gun shooters, Aleix Sheved has 4 WIDE OPEN looks, Ridnour, Love and Malcom Lee/AK47 are all excellent long range shooters thats possibly the dumbest type of defense you can play against Minni on top of that all there big men can pass and Ridnour was having a season best game.

Tyreke is 6'7? That's something I've never heard before ...

[HereWeVivek]

he's 6'6 so we will give andremiller the benefit of the doubt

[andremiller07]

Tyreke is 6'7? That's something I've never heard before ...

Okay my bad hes 6'6 but hes far more better equiped to guard SF's than Salmons is, Tyreke is strong as hell

[PurpleHaze]

Tyreke Evans was always listed as being 6'5" at University of Memphis. When he was drafted into the NBA he was listed at 6'5". When first appearing in camp as rookie with Kings Evans was listed at 6'5." Therefore, if he's now 6'6" or 6'7" it means he's grown an inch or more since that time. Possible, but doubtful. I think he's still 6'5"or maybe 6'5 1/2" - plus very lean and muscular.

[HereWeVivek]

Tyreke Evans was always listed as being 6'5" at University of Memphis. When he was drafted into the NBA he was listed at 6'5". When first appearing in camp as rookie with Kings Evans was listed at 6'5." Therefore, if he's now 6'6" or 6'7" it means he's grown an inch or more since that time. Possible, but doubtful. I think he's still 6'5"or maybe 6'5 1/2" - plus very lean and muscular.

I remember him being listed as 6'6 220pounds as a rookie

[Kingster]

well, in my opinion, the question is whether IT fits at all. same goes for jimmer. i'm not sold on either of them. but again, all i want is 10-15 solid minutes a night from one of them, so that evans, or brooks, or thornton can get a quick blow. if you could combine thomas and jimmer into one efficient super-guard off the bench, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, but both are deficient enough, in some physical way and in some defensive way, that i just don't see the need to play either of them extended minutes. evans, brooks, and thornton are all young enough to log 35-40 minutes a night in an 82 game season. hell, kobe bryant is routinely playing 40 minutes a night for the lakers as a 16-season nba veteran of 34 years of age. that said, i honestly do not believe we should be talking about which of fredette or thomas we should elevate. i believe we should be talking about how we can decrease our lineup's dependency on the shuffling of a buncha guards with redundant skill sets and redundant deficiencies. one must be benched. the other must have his minutes limited. it's that simple...

Look in the 2nd half of the Minni game and reconsider whether you think IT fits. He was key in the comeback from 11 points down. And he certainly didn't lose the game for the Kings. That was done in the frontcourt.

[Section 101]

well, in my opinion, the question is whether IT fits at all. same goes for jimmer. i'm not sold on either of them. but again, all i want is 10-15 solid minutes a night from one of them, so that evans, or brooks, or thornton can get a quick blow. if you could combine thomas and jimmer into one efficient super-guard off the bench, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, but both are deficient enough, in some physical way and in some defensive way, that i just don't see the need to play either of them extended minutes. evans, brooks, and thornton are all young enough to log 35-40 minutes a night in an 82 game season. hell, kobe bryant is routinely playing 40 minutes a night for the lakers as a 16-season nba veteran of 34 years of age. that said, i honestly do not believe we should be talking about which of fredette or thomas we should elevate. i believe we should be talking about how we can decrease our lineup's dependency on the shuffling of a buncha guards with redundant skill sets and redundant deficiencies. one must be benched. the other must have his minutes limited. it's that simple...

Kobe is in better shape right now that Evans.

We saw in the first Utah game Evans was gassed at the 10 min mark in the 3rd quarter. He's playing with more energy right now. If he's going to continue at this level it will take time before he would be ready for 36 mins and 40 mins probably is not reachable on a nightly basis especially with back to backs and 4 in 5 night type games.

[tyreeeke]

Kobe is in better shape right now that Evans.

We saw in the first Utah game Evans was gassed at the 10 min mark in the 3rd quarter. He's playing with more energy right now. If he's going to continue at this level it will take time before he would be ready for 36 mins and 40 mins probably is not reachable on a nightly basis especially with back to backs and 4 in 5 night type games.

Kobe works harder than Tyreke, or any other player for that matter, could ever dream of. Bad comparison. Tyreke is a great, great talent, but he could never possess what Kobe has on any level.

[mac]

Kobe is in better shape right now that Evans.

We saw in the first Utah game Evans was gassed at the 10 min mark in the 3rd quarter. He's playing with more energy right now. If he's going to continue at this level it will take time before he would be ready for 36 mins and 40 mins probably is not reachable on a nightly basis especially with back to backs and 4 in 5 night type games.

So how is it that all our other guys are allowed to play with less energy but Evans is supposed to play with so much energy that he gets gassed in 10 minutes? I think it's stupid to say we should play Tyreke less minutes so that he can go out with that kind of energy all the time. How about asking the other guys who are lazy on defense to step up their effort on both ends so Evans doesn't have to work as hard? Or is this a one man team? And if your reply is going to be that the others are putting in just as much energy as Tyreke but are simply in better shape you'll lose all credibility with me.

[Padrino]

Kobe is in better shape right now that Evans.

We saw in the first Utah game Evans was gassed at the 10 min mark in the 3rd quarter. He's playing with more energy right now. If he's going to continue at this level it will take time before he would be ready for 36 mins and 40 mins probably is not reachable on a nightly basis especially with back to backs and 4 in 5 night type games.

i've seen this argument repeatedly at kingsfans.com, and exclusively from those who have been uber-critical of tyreke evans to an unrelenting fault in his brief career thus far. but it's a tremendously silly argument. you simply do not know how a player will handle the minutes until you know. tyreke evans is not demarcus cousins, a hulking oak of a player who has trouble getting up and down the court in extended minutes. evans is a guard of considerable strength and athleticism who can handle a considerable load if given the opportunity. here's the deal: a player that averages 30 minutes a game across an entire season is in shape to play 30 minutes a game by season's end. likewise, a player that averages 40 minutes a game across an entire season is in shape to play 40 minutes a game by season's end. you don't get in shape to play 40 minutes a game by running up and down the court for 30 minutes a game. this is not a complicated concept. after his first two seasons in which he was used minimally, kobe bryant has consistently logged 38-40 minutes per game. that's why he's always in shape to play those minutes. his body is accustomed to it. likewise, you start playing tyreke 36-38 minutes per game, and his body will get accustomed to it. this is what players and coaches mean when they talk about getting into "game shape." and "game shape" is relative to how many minutes an individual player averages. start giving 'reke those minutes, and he'll adjust...

[mac]

Look in the 2nd half of the Minni game and reconsider whether you think IT fits. He was key in the comeback from 11 points down. And he certainly didn't lose the game for the Kings. That was done in the frontcourt.

Well if you're looking for a guy who will push the ball really fast and score his own points then IT is your guy. But in terms of creating shots for other guys he was about as useful as Jimmer was from the bench. This is, Isaiah Thomas, future HOFer pure PG of the Kings who averages a 8 to 1 Assist:turnover ratio after all? Just as you like to expect a lot out of Evans we should thus expect IT to average 15 assists 2 TO/ 48.

[Kingster]

Well if you're looking for a guy who will push the ball really fast and score his own points then IT is your guy. But in terms of creating shots for other guys he was about as useful as Jimmer was from the bench. This is, Isaiah Thomas, future HOFer pure PG of the Kings who averages a 8 to 1 Assist:turnover ratio after all? Just as you like to expect a lot out of Evans we should thus expect IT to average 15 assists 2 TO/ 48.

I'm looking for a guy that can help you win. You may describe away his abilities, but I'd rather look at the performance and see if he has a positive impact on the game. He definitely did. As far as his assist ability, I remain unconvinced that last year was an aberration, that somehow his passing ability was a statistical anomaly. I think he can pass very well and he'll get it sorted out with time, especially when he can get consistent pt. and coaches him who play him with the right personnel on the floor (It's not conducive to his game to play with 3 non-shooters).

[HereWeVivek]

Or is this a one man team?

For the most part it has been the last few games

[mac]

I'm looking for a guy that can help you win. You may describe away his abilities, but I'd rather look at the performance and see if he has a positive impact on the game. He definitely did. As far as his assist ability, I remain unconvinced that last year was an aberration, that somehow his passing ability was a statistical anomaly. I think he can pass very well and he'll get it sorted out with time, especially when he can get consistent pt. and coaches him who play him with the right personnel on the floor (It's not conducive to his game to play with 3 non-shooters).

Well I agree with you for the most part, just taking a little jab at your general expectations of a player, and that ridiculous A:T ratio towards the end of last year that some (I'm not sure if you did) were boasting about, as if he would carry it forward consistently. However, I was just referring to the 2nd half of the Minny game, and we were talking about fit. So while Thomas did play a big part in getting us back in the game, he was doing a lot of it on his own as opposed to setting guys up. And in the 1st half of that game he was doing neither. So if you're talking about a PG fitting, I take it as someone who can set MT up for open shots, maybe get TRob some easy baskets around the rim - overall ensuring our offense doesn't die. As far as that goes, IT did not fit based on his performance in the Minny game. But I do agree that it's never conducive to play with a lineup of 3 non-shooters, or more specifically 3 offensively inadequate players. It applies to Evans, it applies to Thomas.

It is fairly safe to say that IT doesn't work with Evans though. Think that's been proven. Both guys need the ball in their hands too much to share playmaking duties with one another.