Grades v. Mavs 11/02/04

[Bricklayer]

Sorry, have been more than a little distracted tonight, so take these with a grain of salt:

Peja ( D- ) -- falls under the "what the hell was that?" rubric. made just enough good plays to avoid the "F", but just an ineffective perfromance. Mavs doubled him at times, smothered him at others, and he was rarely able to even get free, let alone hit shots when he actually was open.
Webb ( A- ) -- looked really good tonight. During one stretch in the first half just repeatedly took it right at Dampier and beat him repeatedly. Reminded you of just how good he can be. Moved well on defense although no huge impact. Rebounding picked up as the game went along. Encouraging performance, but not a dominant one.
Miller ( B ) -- got his butt kicked by Dampier to start the game, and then more troublingly was having all kinds of problems keeping the ghost of Alan Henderson off the board either. Don't know what's up with his rebounding right now, but he's got to figure it out. On the positive side played a nice offensive game, early on taking Dampier off the dribble to try to get him into foul trouble, and later smoothly stroking his jumper. And while his rebounding was never good, he got increasingly scrappy as the game went along and began to bang around, get his hands on balls, and generally make himself a pest.
Evans ( C ) -- seems a little harsh given that we're talking Maurice Evans here who four weeks ago nobody thought would even be in the NBA. But for a night at least he was our stater. And he didn't do much. Had some flashes of energetic play and solid defense. But also had lapses and really did very little whether it be scoring, rebounding or passing.
Bibby ( D ) -- just terrible in the first half. Totally dominated by Mavs rookie Devon Harris who just picked his pocket at will. Stablized a little bit in the second half and hit a big three. But it was bad enough that he got the JWill treatment in the 4th quarter as he watched Bobby run the team down the stretch.
BJax ( B- ) -- not his best effort and a little out of control at times. But made some really strong plays as well and ran a much steadier point in the second half than did Bibby. Looked like the old Bobby.
Songaila ( C ) -- energetic effort, but not a terribly effective one. Did a reasonable job against Dirk, but Dirk was just too strong tonight.
Ostertag ( B- ) -- this is not going to be in the numbers, but Tag came in and did what he does best for a few short stints, namely be big. Helped quiet Dampier after a big start against Miller just by suddenly posing a giant 270lb roadblock. Showed his offensive limitations but played within himself.
Barnes ( A+ ) -- ok, it wasn't truly a perfect game. But this is Matt Barnes we are talking about here. And the guy just came in and kicked ***. Quite possibly the best King, an certainly the best King little man. Great energy, athleticsim that we desperately need, an all around game and tonight was hitting his shots. Maybe our elusive backup SF is already on the roster.
Martin ( INC ) -- I am being kind to him with the INC. Came in and was really ineffective. But it was a very short stint.

Adelman ( B ) -- thought he was a bit slow to react to the Mavs using a full court press against us in the first half. Good decision to stick with Bobby over Bibby down the stretch though. And he found Matt Barnes and stuck with him when it became obvious he was outplaying any of our other smaller players.

[piksi]

Grades for Mike and Pedja way too high.

Who ever was guarding Nowitzki does not deserve mor than C.

RA - see Mike and Pedja

[VF21]

Adelman can't shoot the ball. I think his grade was good, and I was really impressed with the use of a complete second unit... Bodes well for the future, IMHO.

As far as the rest of the grades, I'm pretty much in agreement. There's a lot to take away from this game.

Am I happy we lost? Of course not.

Is it indicative of how this team is going to do? I don't think so.

It was Dallas' home opener in front of fans who are as rabid as Arco fans, if not more so. We couldn't stop Dirk but if our top shooters would have done anything, it wouldn't have mattered.

For us to be effective, Pedja HAS to step up and have good showings against these teams.

The Mavs couldn't have beaten us without Dirk; we can't beat them without Pedja.

It really is that simple...

[Mad D]

Who ever was guarding Nowitzki does not deserve mor than C.
well many players were rotated onto Dirk.. so we might as well bump everyone a half grade down



Webb ( A- ) -- looked really good tonight. During one stretch in the first half just repeatedly took it right at Dampier and beat him repeatedly. Reminded you of just how good he can be. Moved well on defense although no huge impact. Rebounding picked up as the game went along. Encouraging performance, but not a dominant one.
I'd bump Webb to a B+ ... FTs

[Andriod_KiNg]

Barnes looked hella good, he has all kinds of shots, great D... wow what a player.

[HndsmCelt]

Might bump bibby up a half grade based on comming up in the clutch. Maybe you were a little hard on Darius bassed on his role. Remember this is the second year 6 10 PF who comes in behind Webber and is expected to hustle, lay some D and take the ocasional shot. He did that and more which translated inot more rest for Webber Other wise just about right.

[Lamar_Odom]

I know it's only 1 game but does Peja really want to remain a King or is he feeling stuck?

[fakie]

I know it's only 1 game but does Peja really want to remain a King or is he feeling stuck?i love peja but if he didn't play well tonight because he didn't take it seriously and just played because he was "stuck" i'd personally drive up to dallas and kick his too-tall-for-me-to-reach behind.

i'm usually a peja homie. i am just not very happy right now.

feel the rage. RAAAA.......

[VF21]

I know it's only 1 game but does Peja really want to remain a King or is he feeling stuck?
Oh please Laker fan. Don't even start...

Pedja played hard. He moved all over the court. He just hasn't gotten his shot back yet.

[HndsmCelt]

Pedja took the whole sumer off and ahs not shot well since suiting up for preseason. He is in shape, going for the ocasional board and trying to shoot himself out of the slump... He will be fine.

[Evenstar]

i listened to part of the game, until about midway through the 2nd, and it sounded awful. peja sounded like he couldn't hit water falling out of a boat. miller and webber sounded like they were the only starters doing anything, and barnes sounded like he was doing an awesome job.

hopefully peja shows up tommorrow, but with bowen..... oh boy. i won't count on it.

and i'm so ticked this isn't on national TV. this sucks for me becuase i can't afford LP so i can only listen to a staticy radio... ARGH!!!!

better luck tommorrow GO KINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KingKong]

Didn't get to watch the game, but what else is new. Definately seems like there are many postives to take from the game. Barnes seemed like he played exceptionally. Good to see that Webb played well. Can he play well consistently is the question. He had some stellar games if you remember, when he had just come back from his injury last season and then looked awful in others. Brad seemed to get better as the game progressed. I think we can definately get more out of Songaila on the offensive end. Otag did what he does best even with a a bummed hand. Bobby, from most of your takes seemed to be Bobby. Are the stats right? did we actually have the same amount of rebounds as the Mavs @ 43 boards??

Then there is the obvious lack of play from Peja and Bibby, but i'm sure they will get it together soon. Martin should that he is just a rook, needs to gain more confidence and play within himself. Team defense defiantely needs a lot more work. What I couldn't tell is whether they were playing Kings ball, with nifty passes and backdoor cuts. Was that happening at all??? I ask because it seems that our assists seemed to be lower than usual.

Finally, can anyone help me out and tell me if they were surprised by any of the Dallas players and how the Mavs looked overall as a team? thanks

[Since93]

Dallas looks good. Expecially Harris. He is sooo quick. Man I wish we have some of the 'rookie luck' Dallas has this two seasons.. tips my hat off to their scouting staff.

[Mad D]

Dallas looks good. Expecially Harris. He is sooo quick. Man I wish we have some of the 'rookie luck' Dallas has this two seasons.. tips my hat off to their scouting staff.well they did trade the 6th man of the year for harris and stack..

[Since93]

well they did trade the 6th man of the year for harris and stack..
forget about stack. but jamison for a new PROMISING starting POINT GUARD? i will do that any given day.

[Mad D]

Oh.. and about rookie luck, you forgot that the Kings accuired a guy name Darius

[Since93]

Oh.. and about rookie luck, you forgot that the Kings accuired a guy name Darius
Darius is good, but can't compare to Daniels and Howard IMO.

[RangerC]

Weird game.

On one hand, the Kings were a couple stops away from tying it up late with Peja and Bibby basically not contributing (Jackson was pretty bad as well). That's a cause for optimism.

On the other hand, it's hard to feel good whenever two of your top 3 players forgot to show up.

[VF21]

On the OTHER other hand, what about seeing a complete second unit for the Kings on the court? That has to be a plus...along with how well Webber, Miller and Barnes played.

;)

[allrightythen]

I didn't see the game, but based on what I've read it seems like it could've been a lot worse. If the worst of our problems was our shooters being off, its not that bad at all.

[albeitrue]

Okay, just a few more late night observations from the newb.

Barnes & Brad were AWESOME! Web contributed with some good baskets. Brad provided interior defense as well as shooting, and his hussle after the ball isn't matched by anyone else on the team. Barnes: It was refreshing to see the new kid on the block look interested and excited to be on the floor, and it showed in every faucet of his play.

Now for the bad news. Webber is still hobbled, you can see it in his gait and in lack of ANY significant elevation. Yes, he put up some good numbers, but he missed many defensive opportunities, blew it under the basket more than once offensively and mishandled the ball more than a few times. Peja's shots clanked, although he did make some good moves in the interior. Does Peja need a personality overhaul? If he can't come out and play with the big boys soon, I feel he will shrivel up into an insignificant non-entity out there (and what a shame that would be!) Bibby was simply not on his shot either, what can you say?

These guys have been playing together longer than any team's core. These core players are who fans should expect to see production from, even if Tag off the bench did his job and Songalia was just mediocre. Maybe it was just a jitter problem, but if things aren't resolved soon I fear that shallow bandwaggon fans will be a little more than tough come opening home game next week at Arco.

I think Adelman has a lot to answer to this year, especially where lack of defensive play is concerned. I hope he is as concerned as we all are!

I don't think there is any shame in playing a crappy game. Hopefully we can take at least one win from this roadtrip.

[VF21]

alriightythen - It wasn't that bad. The good news (Webber, Miller, AND Barnes) was very good. The bad news (Pedja and Bibby MIA) is fixable.

The worst of our problems was that we did not have anyone on the floor who even made Dirk break a sweat... On the other hand, if our shooters had been shooting, it wouldn't have mattered.

:D

[VF21]

Now for the bad news. Webber is still hobbled, you can see it in his gait and in lack of ANY significant elevation. Yes, he put up some good numbers, but he missed many defensive opportunities, blew it under the basket more than once offensively and mishandled the ball more than a few times. . .Still hobbled? Funny. Neither the Sacramento broadcasters OR the Mavericks broadcasters thought that.

Just how much does he have to do? Walk on water???

Barnes & Brad were AWESOME! Web contributed with some good baskets.
Webber "contributed" ...? Webber was effective and instrumental in Miller making having a good game. They worked well together.

But, whatever... If you saw him still hobbled, etc. than that's your opinion, which you are entitled to. It's just odd that virtually no one reporting the game saw the same thing.

[albeitrue]

Just how much does he have to do? Walk on water??? No, that would make him more than human and I know he isn't. Is there any other way to answer that?

It was an observation - I may not be an announcer, but I can still have one.

Did you read the rest? You are usually more positive than that.

Edit: Okay, I see you did make an allowance for me to have my opinion, my bad!

[VF21]

Sorry for the sarcasm.

Your statement that Webber is still hobbled is just, IMHO, without substance in fact. I found it odd that you would say that, especially after the broadcasters for both the Kings and the Mavericks made a point of saying pretty much the exact opposite.

My main point - especially for those who weren't able to watch - was that while you feel he's still hobbled, the guys who were watching most closely and had the best view didn't seem to agree.

I didn't see it, either, and I watched very closely, sitting very near the TV. I'm watching the tape now, and I still don't see any real problem in his mobility or strength.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, pending further assessment...

;)

[albeitrue]

I will agree to disagree with you VF21, no problem here. None of us should be so sensitive that we can't have an open discussion and possibly learn something from each other. I like this forum, and am taking my time and some trouble trying to be sensitive about what I say! That's why it took me some time to prepare my response to your comment. :o

As to the sarcasm, you have your ideas about Web, and I have mine. I did wonder though if you read the rest of the post...

Do you also think I am Ailene Voison? :eek:

[4cwebb]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, pending further assessment...

;)
or pending CWebb's performance tomorrow night, presuming he plays.

[4cwebb]

If a grade existed for team defense, what would those watching the game give such grade? That is what frustrates me about listening via the internet -- I can't get a sense for team defense. Was Dirk just on fire in the first half, or were there serious defensive breakdowns?

And on that note, I might drop Adelman's grade a tad. Why did he stray from having Peja guard Dirk when the two are on the floor together? That has been the Kings MO, even when Dirk was playing PF before. Sure, Josh Howard is no Adrian Griffin, but he's not Dirk yet, either.

[VF21]

I will agree to disagree with you VF21, no problem here. None of us should be so sensitive that we can't have an open discussion and possibly learn something from each other. I like this forum, and am taking my time and some trouble trying to be sensitive about what I say! That's why it took me some time to prepare my response to your comment. :o

As to the sarcasm, you have your ideas about Web, and I have mine. I did wonder though if you read the rest of the post...

Do you also think I am Ailene Voison? :eek:
You're entirely right about the discussion part... and I should not have replied with sarcasm. It's just frustrating sometimes. So much negative stuff has been said about Webber that I just like to see people give him credit when credit is due, and I think he deserved credit for tonight's performance... The "Yes, he put up good numbers BUT..." just didn't seem fair.

Are you Ailene Voisin? No. She'd probably spell her last name right. Unless, of course, that's part of the plan to throw me off the track. ;)

[VF21]

If a grade existed for team defense, what would those watching the game give such grade? That is what frustrates me about listening via the internet -- I can't get a sense for team defense. Was Dirk just on fire in the first half, or were there serious defensive breakdowns?

And on that note, I might drop Adelman's grade a tad. Why did he stray from having Peja guard Dirk when the two are on the floor together? That has been the Kings MO, even when Dirk was playing PF before. Sure, Josh Howard is no Adrian Griffin, but he's not Dirk yet, either.
Team defense? Hmmmmmm. TEAM DEFENSE???? Tough question.

Was Dirk on fire in the first half? Yes. Were there serious defensive breakdowns? Yes.

Adelman tried a lot of different combinations, trying to find a way to at least contain Dirk. Without Doug on the floor, however, we were just too light in the defense department IMHO. He pulled Pedja off guarding Dirk because Dirk was acting as though Pedja was invisible.

We simply do not match up well against the Mavs. When we have two players MIA, we are in deep doo-doo. If Pedja had found even part of his shot, we would have been okay, especially in the second half.

[slugking50]

i can understand somebody saying Webb looks hobbled. Webb has that funny running style which IMHO looks so painful. I guess I need to see some old footage to compare but watching him run makes my whole body hurt.lol

I agree with the grade pretty much.

Barnes was fabulous, Miller was good but definately got whooped early. Although, His rebounding needs work!! Webbwas pretty good as well. Same thing about rebounding though!!

Bibby and Peja forgot we were playing I guess. Peja was abused by Dirk and Bibby was abused by the rook. Well No excuses tonight for either of them.

I think the 43 even rebounding numbers are lying a bit. We had a lot of tips which skewed the numbered a tad. I watched the replay of the game and if it werent for the tips the Mavs would of had atleast a 8-10 board edge.

For the first game we didnt look too bad. The engine is being tuned and its going to take a while before its working on all cylinders. Its just 1 game of 82. Still a long way to go....

[Double-K]

Peja ( D- ) -- falls under the "what the hell was that?" rubric. made just enough good plays to avoid the "F", but just an ineffective perfromance. Mavs doubled him at times, smothered him at others, and he was rarely able to even get free, let alone hit shots when he actually was open.
Was he just hanging out with his new born baby during the summer? Was he suppose to train to be a better all-rounder? Am I mistaken or something? I know it's just one game and I know Pedja would not play like that most of the time.... but from some highlight I saw, he didn't seem to care about his "performance" ......Is he too lay back or is it just me?????:confused:

[Bricklayer]

Maybe we should keep an "empty minutes" stat. Now I thought Tag was effective in there, and Evans and Songaila both had their moments, but nonetheless we had a LOT of guys who really were invisible statistically: Evans, Songaila, Tag and Martin combined for:

60min 5pts (2-10, 0-1, 1-2) 4rebs 3ast 0stl 1blk 2TO 4FL

that's kind of a whole lot of nothing, in particular while 2 of your three leading scorers are taking the night off.

[Truconfidence]

Maybe we should keep an "empty minutes" stat. Now I thought Tag was effective in there, and Evans and Songaila both had their moments, but nonetheless we had a LOT of guys who really were invisible statistically: Evans, Songaila, Tag and Martin combined for:

60min 5pts (2-10, 0-1, 1-2) 4rebs 3ast 0stl 1blk 2TO 4FL

that's kind of a whole lot of nothing, in particular while 2 of your three leading scorers are taking the night off.

Bricklayer I think you hit the nail on the head. Ostertag gets a pass cause he hasnt played with these guys but the rest of them, if you arent scoring can do something else. I thought Evans and Songalia's minutes were completely empty. Martin just was way too nervous. When he passed up that first open shot took a dribble in and hit the side of the backboard, I immediately looked at the Kings bench to see if Adelman was walking down looking for someone to point at to come in. cause he passed up a wide open 21fter to take a contested 16fter.

[Truconfidence]

My take on the game was that they played really well in the 2nd half. No reason to be discouraged by the loss at all if the game was 2mins longer they would have won. Barnes played with confidence and i hope he starts at the 2 tonight. Webber and Miller both played well, it seems Chris was holding back in the pre-season fooled all of us. Bibby was horrid as well as Peja. Sonaglia, Martin and Evans showed up..thanks for coming..Ostertag really seemed to settle thigns down, very impressed in his limited minutes, that he is going to end up being a huge factor on this team. Bobby Jackson was B-Jax...jacking up ill-advised shots but you live with it,lol. considering how they ended the pre-season, i give the performace as a team broken down into halves 1st half=D, 2nd half=B+...showed heart in the 2nd half at least....and although Barnes played well, i dont think we wanna see him in crunch time on the floor ever as he did make a mistake there at the end that hurt the comeback chances. He has hit his shots but he isnt a very good shooter...so im gonna wait 3 more games before i reconsider my mental file on his ability.

[piksi]

Peja was abused by Dirk

Pedja had an extremly bad game but this statement is not entirely true. Dirk Player PF all night long. Dallas did not play small ball.

[KingKong]

I' m actually quite hopeful about our bench:

Otag semes like a good backup for Miller, will clog the lane and provide some needed toughness.

Songaila didn't play well tonight, but he hustles and has a decent offensive game, he needs to become a better rebounder though.

Matt Barnes, what can you say about this guys first game. Just awesome

Courtney Alexander, this guy is definately gonna get the nod over Flash, as soon has he gets healthy. An efficient and proven scorer with some athleticism. From you takes, Flash seemed lost out there. Needs to get more confident, but he is still a rookie. He will learn. Not too sure how Mo evans played.

Bobby, essentially played starting mins over a lackluster Bibby. Plays hard and plays great defense.

I think our second is much better defensively than our starting lineup. That's a good thing but our starting 5 needs to pick it up on the defnsive end or were gonna get run out by a lot of teams and we will be having to play catch up most of the game.

[sloter]

Well, so many people complained about Pedja not being rested enough for the season, and critiqued his decision to play for the national team over the summer and now that he finally had a basketball-free summer they are criticizing him for not being in shape. Which one do you want ?
I didn't see the game, but Webber's numbers look good - but this is really no surprise - Dallas is one team he's been torturing on a regular basis.

[Bricklayer]

Well, so many people complained about Pedja not being rested enough for the season, and critiqued his decision to play for the national team over the summer and now that he finally had a basketball-free summer they are criticizing him for not being in shape. Which one do you want ?
I didn't see the game, but Webber's numbers look good - but this is really no surprise - Dallas is one team he's been torturing on a regular basis.I don't really think he's not in shape. He should be fine but:

1) I am not 100% sure of where his head is. Have nothing to really prove its not in the game/team/winning, but nothing really to prove it is either (and a summer full of vague indications of unrest). Was glad to see that he was one of the signatories to that ad in the Bee, but I have a feeling they came to him with it rather than the other way around.

2) If his head is fine he should be back to the same ole Peja. Which is mostly good, but wherein also lies the problem. Many people wanted him to take some time off from playing year around, but not from practicing too. In fact one of the hopes for him taking time off was not even so much about being "tired" as it was that if he took time off, he could use that time productively to, for instance, work on a back to the basket game to punish smaller defenders with and make it impractical to guard him with twerps like Hassel. But now it appears that when he took time off, he REALLY took time off. Rested sure (well maybe -- hardly the most restful summer for him). But no improvements in his game. That could really become an issue if we once again run into Minnesota or San Antonio in the playoffs and Peja basically doesn't have any new tricks to beat Bowen/Hassel with. Tonight might be interesting. Would LOVE to see Peja show something to indicate he is figuring out how to beat the Bowens of the world.

[vj9999]

I think Peđa will be fine, but I was kind of worried when I saw him towards thje end of the game making funny facial expressions. It almost seemed like "Win or loose, doesn't matter to me.". I guess it also could have been "What a hell is wrong with you Peđa?! You know you can do better than that."

[sloter]

Pedja should just start dunking on people. :)

[webberfan]

Pedja had an extremly bad game but this statement is not entirely true. Dirk Player PF all night long. Dallas did not play small ball.
yeah, for the most part it was webber getting abused by dirk and miller getting abused by dampier, especially early. i'm not worried about peja. he had a bad game, and probably will tonight against bowen, too.

but, he'll get better as the season goes on. after all, he basically took the summer off so i'm going to reserve judgment for at least a few games.

[CruzDude]

I generally agree with all Bricklayer's evals except for CWebb. His defense was lacking and he got beat off the dribble most of the time. His lateral movement is still suspect. His rebounding numbers were misleading when it came to banging under the basket or offensive rebounds. I'd give him a straight B because it is the first game and he is about 85%-90%.

Don't expect to see as many minutes from him tonight tho' and that is good. Want him 100% for last 20 games and playoffs.

Otherwise the second half was a "B" level game as a team with the "Bench Mob" doing better than the "core".

[VF21]

BUMP. I brought this forward for comparison purposes - to see how we felt after the first game last year.

[stevetaebo]

Not so outragous predictions afterall =/

Ric Bucher ESPN Mag:

Bonzi Wells and Shareef Abdur-Rahim aren't suited to play the Princeton style that has been the Kings' hallmark since GM Geoff Petrie built this team. Another talented team that will be searching for an identity.

Chris Sheridan ESPN.com Insider:

Bonzi for Bobby was the rare risky move by Geoff Petrie, and it might blow up on him. Shareef was a decent signing, but he hasn't played a playoff game in nine NBA seasons. He'll make it 10 under Rick Adelman and whoever replaces him.

[VF21]

What are you talking about? This is the grade thread from our first game last year (Nov. 2, 2004) and has absolutely no mention of the Kings acquiring SAR or Bonzi a year later...

;)

[love_them_kings]

hmm... didn't think I'd ever look back on that game fondly, but compared to this game, that was a picnic!:o

[QueensFan]

There's a difference between losing 107-98 at Dallas and scoring 67 pts and losing by nearly 30 in OKC to the Hornets. Big difference.

[VF21]

That's kind of the point, QueensFan. I revived the thread because, even though we lost our first game last year, too, the particulars were totally different.

I mentioned in another thread - I did some quick checking and it looks like the last time the Kings scored as low as 67 points was in a 89-67 loss to the Chicago Bulls in Chicago on March 19, 1996.

[QueensFan]

That's kind of the point, QueensFan. I revived the thread because, even though we lost our first game last year, too, the particulars were totally different.

I mentioned in another thread - I did some quick checking and it looks like the last time the Kings scored as low as 67 points was in a 89-67 loss to the Chicago Bulls in Chicago on March 19, 1996.
Oof! Those were Jordan's Bulls!

These are...Speedy Claxton's Hornets?

[ONEZERO]

Wow when I first saw this thread, I was like brick has wayyyy too much time on his hands to make a grades for the suns against the mavs hahahhahaha. I thought he had picked up a new trend on making grades for our divisional rivals hahahha.

Oh and that game last year shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as yesterdays game, yesterdays game was a complete disgrace.

And one more thing, if webb continues his play like he did yesterday(big IF), then we will surely be kicking ourselves in the head(and I know about the huge contract, but still, 34 points and 14 rebounds against one of the best frontlines in the league- bogut, gadzuric, magloire, etc...-?? That's just amazing).

And its just one game. We'll see how we fair against the rockets tonight. It'll give us a better clue(win or loss) of how good we can be. We still gotta give this team time. It'll all come together, trust me.

[stevetaebo]

What are you talking about? This is the grade thread from our first game last year (Nov. 2, 2004) and has absolutely no mention of the Kings acquiring SAR or Bonzi a year later...

;)

heh very sneaky VF. I didnt read the header, thought it was from the game last night.

[bdouble013]

QF!!!! You better not disappear again!