Divac update...

[CruzDude]

During the Lakers-Clips game yesterday the interviewed Vlade about his back (vertebra) injury. He said he doesn't know for which game he will return but that it likely will be 3 weeks more.

Then later they (sportscaster for the game) talked about how much of an up tempo game the Lakes are now developing. That does not breed well for ole Vlade.

Oh well, the Lakers get what they deserve. :D

[Lamar_Odom]

Oh well, the Lakers get what they deserve. :DI thought in the NBA you, nothing is deserved unless you earn it (i.e., championships). But exactly, what do you mean by this sentence?

[VF21]

Lamar - In cases like this, I think you just have to understand that this is a Kings board. We are occasionally going to say things from strictly a Kings fan viewpoint.

Some Kings fans are just never going to say anything nice about the Lakers, just as some Laker fans would never deign to say anything civil about the Kings. It comes with the territory...and that part of the discussion stops right now.

Thank you.

[VF21]

Back to the topic of Vlade - I, too, wonder about his being able to keep up with the fast pace evidenced by the pre-season games. When Kobe even tells his team-mates to "Rebound and run, guys" that is gonna take a toll on Vlade. Luckily, they have indicated they'll be playing a platoon center ... they'll have to. Vlade was a lot of things, but watching him labor up and down the court was like watching an old steam engine pick up steam...

[Lamar_Odom]

Vlade will be most effective in a half-court set. They will need that especially if they want to make some noise in the playoffs.

[Double-K]

Seriously I think that, what the Lakers need is a backup PG for Atkins (you guys r not putting Rush up that spot, r u?) and a big man who can run the floor and grab rebounds pretty regularly, Vlade can't do either of them consistently......

[Mad D]

Seriously I think that, what the Lakers need is a backup PG for Atkins (you guys r not putting Rush up that spot, r u?)They'll probably play Rush with Kobe and have Kobe handle the ball. They might also have Sasha run the point.

and a big man who can run the floor and grab rebounds pretty regularly, Vlade can't do either of them consistently......and they'll probably have to leave that to Lamar Odom.

[KA_2]

Mihm is a very athletic big men that can cover a lot of ground quickly in an up-tempo offense, so he fits well. But even then, he doesn't get the opportunity to finish on the Lakers' fast breaks. The Lakers have have plenty of players that can finish on the break, making Mihm mostly unnecessary. He'll probably average no more than 1 or 2 ppg on the fast break in 23-24 mpg this season, which is just about the average for most big men in an uptempo offense.

Besides, fast breaks are almost always initiated off of rebounds, which the vast majority of the time a big man is going to grab. When Vlade grabs his rebounds, he's going to be making outlet passes to initiate the break, something he is the best in the league at doing. Vlade's role in a fast break offense will be as a outlet passer, not as a scorer. Same with Mihm, Grant, and Odom. Kobe, Odom, Butler, and Jones all thrive in the open court, and Brown and Sasha have already proven to be excellent initiators, so the Lakers fast break offense is going to be very good, as partly evidenced by the Kings game.

[KA_2]

They'll probably play Rush with Kobe and have Kobe handle the ball. They might also have Sasha run the point.
No, Rush isn't going to see a lot of PT this year. In fact, don't be surprised if he's traded before the deadline this season. He can bolt after this season for nothing, and the Lakers don't want that to happen. Same with Walton. Look for both to be in trade bait conversations this season. Heck, Walton's already rumored to be going to Boston (for Marcus Banks).

[VF21]

Besides, fast breaks are almost always initiated off of rebounds, which the vast majority of the time a big man is going to grab. When Vlade grabs his rebounds, he's going to be making outlet passes to initiate the break, something he is the best in the league at doing. Vlade's role in a fast break offense will be as a outlet passer, not as a scorer. Same with Mihm, Grant, and Odom. Kobe, Odom, Butler, and Jones all thrive in the open court, and Brown and Sasha have already proven to be excellent initiators, so the Lakers fast break offense is going to be very good, as partly evidenced by the Kings game.Boy, I kinda hate to be the one to break it to you like this, but Vlade's ability to grab rebounds has diminished greatly. When you have a vertical leap measured in centimeters, it's hard to get up and grab those boards.

Oh you didn't...

You're using performance against our scrubs in a pre-season game to prove your point?

You are in for sooo much disappointment.

[KA_2]

Boy, I kinda hate to be the one to break it to you like this, but Vlade's ability to grab rebounds has diminished greatly. When you have a vertical leap measured in centimeters, it's hard to get up and grab those boards.

Vlade can still grab rebounds, his dimished skills in this area are greatly exaggerated by some. He simply needs the right minutes.

Oh you didn't...

You're using performance against our scrubs in a pre-season game to prove your point?

You are in for sooo much disappointment.
We'll see, won't we?

[VF21]

Yeah. Keep thinking it.

I ran the prediction game for this board last year and had to keep close watch on the box scores for every single game. Vlade didn't lead the team in rebounds more than once or twice. And that was when he was getting tons of minutes, playing while Webber was still out and Miller was at the 4.

How many Kings games did you watch last year?

[Double-K]

He'll probably average no more than 1 or 2 ppg on the fast break in 23-24 mpg this season, which is just about the average for most big men in an uptempo offense.
Duh!! that's like everyone in the Lakers beside KOBE!! or maybe Odom and Butler......hopefully.........

Same with Walton. Look for both to be in trade bait conversations this season. Heck, Walton's already rumored to be going to Boston (for Marcus Banks).
If that's the case, then that would be very stupid for both part, it's stupid for Celtics to give up on Banks because he's a very solid ballhandler and giving time (and learn from Gary) he can be a very good PG.......and for the Lakers part, you really don't want to get a PG body who does every SG's job........and his role model would be.......KOBE!! Banks could turn out to be the 2nd Dajuan Wagner.........(See reference on Wagner-Davis relationship)

[KA_2]

Yeah. Keep thinking it.

I ran the prediction game for this board last year and had to keep close watch on the box scores for every single game. Vlade didn't lead the team in rebounds more than once or twice. And that was when he was getting tons of minutes, playing while Webber was still out and Miller was at the 4.
How is it surprising that Miller outrebounded Vlade, he was top 8 in rpg last season? No one expects Vlade to be top 8 in rebounds. Miller at the 4 is pretty irrelevant.

How many Kings games did you watch last year? About 40.

Duh!! that's like everyone in the Lakers beside KOBE!! or maybe Odom and Butler......hopefully......... What?

If that's the case, then that would be very stupid for both part, it's stupid for Celtics to give up on Banks because he's a very solid ballhandler and giving time (and learn from Gary) he can be a very good PG.......and for the Lakers part, you really don't want to get a PG body who does every SG's job........and his role model would be.......KOBE!! Banks could turn out to be the 2nd Dajuan Wagner.........(See reference on Wagner-Davis relationship) Oy:

1) You need to catch up on your Boston Celtics. They have no need for Banks, that’s why they traded him in the first place. His defense is replaceable by a guy named Tony Allen, who is an amazing defender and is only 22. Then there’s Delonte West, their biggest pickup of the offseason in terms of potential and youth as a backcourt asset (can play the 1 and 2). They want him to develop into a PG, and he’s certainly capable, and has already shown it in preseason. Not to mention they have Gary this year anyway.

2) The Lakers don’t want Banks to be a ball handler, Odom, Kobe and Vlade in the high post will do all the handling. They want Banks to initiate breaks (either off a quick pass from a big or off a rebound), but most of all they want him to defend the quick elite point guards in the NBA, something he is tremendously good at. Guys like Cassell/Hudson, Parker, Billups, Bibby, Davis…especially Parker and Billups.

[slugking50]

Vlade can still grab rebounds, his dimished skills in this area are greatly exaggerated by some. He simply needs the right minutes.


We'll see, won't we?
Yes we will all see that his diminished skills arent exaggerated. We saw it about 100 to your 40.

[Bricklayer]

Vlade can still grab rebounds, his dimished skills in this area are greatly exaggerated by some. He simply needs the right minutes.


And right there you demonstrate quite nicely that you really don't know what you're talking about. You're living in the past if you think Vlade can still be an effective rebounder. His legs are shot. He can still play the game with his mind, still do things that require skill, but boarding isn't one of them.

Vlade was the 166th best rebounder in the NBA last year (per 48min). He was behind such noted non-rebounders as Nene Hilario and Eddie Curry. He was outrebounded by Peja Drobjnak and Vitaly Potapenko. He did however manage to barely edge out Bobby Sura and Mo Taylor. :rolleyes:

What will happen, of course, is that like all old players on 1 night out of 5 he will have a strong game -- the legs will feel good, whatever that is. He'll look almost like the old Vlade. And then for the next 4 nights he'll struggle. It is the same pattern that every old big man has experienced. Throw back nights when the body feels good. Followed by embarrassing nights when the legs just don't work anymore.

[PejaFanatic]

No fair Brick, everyone knows Mo Taylor can't rebound.:D

I know why because he's not tall enough compare to other forwards. And I am sticking to this theory!!! :p

[piksi]

Yeah. Keep thinking it.

I ran the prediction game for this board last year and had to keep close watch on the box scores for every single game. Vlade didn't lead the team in rebounds more than once or twice. And that was when he was getting tons of minutes, playing while Webber was still out and Miller was at the 4.

How many Kings games did you watch last year?

He led the team 9 times to be exact.

And while he was playing long minutes we were 43 -15. When his minutes got reduced we went 11-12.
He also led his team 28 times in assists ( by far our best PG), including 12/13 times in February. (we went 10-3 - our best month by far last season).

There is absolutely no fact You can provide which would prove the point You are trying to make.







http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teamsched?team=sac&season=2004

[6th]

Yep! I checked that out, piksi. He led twice in Nov. (one is tied w/Miller). Had a lousy Dec. (did not lead once). He then led twice again in Jan. (really great so far for a Center logging a lot of minutes). And, then came a fantastic Feb. where he led 5 times (one is tied with Songaila)...when was Brad's 1st injury again? And finally, no rebounding team leads after Feb 27th. Okay, he is really a rebounding juggernaut as he ages.

Obviously, the point is, Vlade cannot (or does not) lead a team in rebounding like he used to when he was younger (or shall we say, when his legs were younger).

Another point still is, Vlade's rebounding per game stats have steadily declined over the last few years. Is this a knock on Vlade? Hell no!! It is simply an admission that the player I love is getting older and less valuable as a player in the NBA. :(

[piksi]

Yep! I checked that out, piksi. He led twice in Nov. (one is tied w/Miller). Had a lousy Dec. (did not lead once). He then led twice again in Jan. (really great so far for a Center logging a lot of minutes). And, then came a fantastic Feb. where he led 5 times (one is tied with Songaila)...when was Brad's 1st injury again? And finally, no rebounding team leads after Feb 27th. Okay, he is really a rebounding juggernaut as he ages.

Obviously, the point is, Vlade cannot (or does not) lead a team in rebounding like he used to when he was younger (or shall we say, when his legs were younger).

Another point still is, Vlade's rebounding per game stats have steadily declined over the last few years. Is this a knock on Vlade? Hell no!! It is simply an admission that the player I love is getting older and less valuable as a player in the NBA. :(


there is still 43 - 15 vs 11-12

[Lamar_Odom]

and his role model would be.......KOBE!! Banks could turn out to be the 2nd Dajuan Wagner.........(See reference on Wagner-Davis relationship)Kobe would be his role model? The most talented player in the league? The hardest working player? The clutchest player in the league? That would be great!

As far the relationship - if Banks works hard, he'll be fine. Kobe has a problem with half-hearted players.

[Double-K]

Kobe would be his role model? The most talented player in the league? The hardest working player? The clutchest player in the league? That would be great!yeah.......if that's your "theory", then Banks would turn to be a talented, hard working, clutch, blackhole in the league.................I think that would be "great"...........(consider I'm from Las Vegas and I've saw Banks play for a while.......maybe what he need is some more blackhole-ing skill........which he "desperately" need them.....ha a ha ha)

[Lamar_Odom]

So why do you care about the Lakers so much? Isn't that your ultimate wish - the doom of the Lakers? Why are you worried now that Banks would come to the Lakers since that helps in part what you're hoping for?

[Double-K]

So why do you care about the Lakers so much? Isn't that your ultimate wish - the doom of the Lakers? Why are you worried now that Banks would come to the Lakers since that helps in part what you're hoping for?
Basically you are saying, Banks come to Lakers would be the doom of the Lakers? why......so you tired of defending something doesn't make too much sense and come back to sane now? (;) just kidding for the sane part, you know I wouldn't attack my fellow kingsfans member........)

And you ask me why I care about the Lakers so much? if you must know, I care about them just like why Kerry want to know Bush's National Guard report, so you can attack them accurately and directly with fairness........not just bashing Kobe blackhole-ing the ball, or Rush's bad looking, or Brain Grant's bad hairstyling, or stanislav medvedenko's name being too complicated.........

and by the way, since I'm from Las Vegas and I watched Banks played a lot.......(he's from UNLV in case you didn't know)...... so I do care about Banks goes to the Lakers and ultimately being the doom of Lakers......

[Lamar_Odom]

Thanks. Silly me. For a while, I thought you just didn't want a player with potential to come to the Lakers.

[Double-K]

Thanks. Silly me. For a while, I thought you just didn't want a player with potential to come to the Lakers.
well..........that might be too!!

[Lamar_Odom]

That's better. ;)

[VF21]

He led the team 9 times to be exact.

And while he was playing long minutes we were 43 -15. When his minutes got reduced we went 11-12.
He also led his team 28 times in assists ( by far our best PG), including 12/13 times in February. (we went 10-3 - our best month by far last season).

There is absolutely no fact You can provide which would prove the point You are trying to make.
Oh, excuse me. So the starting center for the Kings got the most rebounds 9 times out of 82... Sorry, but that pretty much illustrates my point. Vlade is aging. YOu can deny it; you can pretend it's not happening. You can pull statistics out of your hat to try and show he's still a force to be reckoned with as far as premiere centers go.

Unfortunately, it's not true.

My only point at the beginning of this was that if the Laker fans are expecting lots of rebounds from Vlade OR lots of blocked shots, they're going to be sadly disappointed. If they expect him to clog the lane the way Shaq did, they're going to be sadly disappointed. If, on the other hand, they want a finesse center who can still pass and has an almost scary court sense, then Vlade will do fine for them.

As for your 43-15 vs. 11-12... If you're trying to use those statistics to prove anything about Vlade, you've obviously missed the point. THOSE statistics are only to be used to show that bringing Webber back caused the Kings juggernaut to falter...

;)

If you want a TRUE measure of Vlade's declining impact on critical games, check out his performance in the 2004 playoffs. That tells a tale much more clearly than regular season statistics. REGARDLESS of what happens in the regular season, our players are supposed to step it up in the playoffs, to do what has to be done when it needs to be done.

If you're a fan of Vlade's, you dishonor him and all his accomplishments IMHO by refusing to admit that he has, in fact, slowed down and become less effective.

[Gargamel]

Lamar - In cases like this, I think you just have to understand that this is a Kings board. We are occasionally going to say things from strictly a Kings fan viewpoint.
Cruz Dude esp.

[Gargamel]

and a big man who can run the floor and grab rebounds pretty regularly, Vlade can't do either of them consistently......
You mean a big who can run and board BESIDES Mihm?

[HndsmCelt]

The funny think Is I remember 2 years ago the Lakerfaithfull were comming to this board to post about the demise of the Kings and their favorite mantra was that Vlade was too old, now 2 seasons of lower production later he is going to be an important part of their team. Perhaps the BEST judges of Vlade's skills, ablity and possible decline would be the coaching staff and the GM they report to, you know the guys that hired his replacement last year and determined a fair market value for THERI expectation on him for this comming year was 2 mill. I think it goes with out saying their confidence in Vlade ebbed beffor last season and nothein he did during the year built confidence in him.

[Gargamel]

So why do you care about the Lakers so much? Isn't that your ultimate wish - the doom of the Lakers? Why are you worried now that Banks would come to the Lakers since that helps in part what you're hoping for?
Watch out, Lamar. Don't get trapped in Double K's maze of psychological torture chambers. :rolleyes:

[Gargamel]

The funny think Is I remember 2 years ago the Lakerfaithfull were comming to this board to post about the demise of the Kings and their favorite mantra was that Vlade was too old, now 2 seasons of lower production later he is going to be an important part of their team. Perhaps the BEST judges of Vlade's skills, ablity and possible decline would be the coaching staff and the GM they report to, you know the guys that hired his replacement last year and determined a fair market value for THERI expectation on him for this comming year was 2 mill. I think it goes with out saying their confidence in Vlade ebbed beffor last season and nothein he did during the year built confidence in him.
Nah. They weren't saying Vlade was too old so much as Vlade was so soft and floppy that he was merely a speedbump for Shaq.

If your staff's confidence in Vlade waned, I wish you much luck with Greg Ostertag. It'll be interesting to see how his varied talents are assimilated into the Kings' system.

[VF21]

I have been a fan of Vlade's since the beginning of his career in the NBA. Laker fan? Hell, no! But Vlade fan, yes. When he came to the Kings I was besides myself with joy.

Vlade has had a very good career in the NBA. Now, however, it's fading and within a couple of years it will be gone.

Quite frankly, the Laker fan comments don't bother me personally as much as the comments by Kings (or at least Serbian player) fans who cannot accept the inevitability of age, declining skills, etc.

IMHO we should honor Vlade for the time he spent with us and thank him for all he did. At some point I believe #21 should hang in the rafters of Arco because he was one of the players who actually turned this franchise around and made it fun to be a Kings fan again.

What we do not need to do is deny him the right to grow old, to fade... He's like a race horse, except Vlade was never that fast. ;) His skills decline, his numbers decline, his minutes decline as the next generation of centers comes along. That's not a bad thing; it's life.

Realistically, Vlade's true worth just might be in the lessons he's able to teach the new guys on the Lakers. If I was a Laker fan, I'd much rather team members learn about passing, sharing the ball, etc. from Vlade than from Kobe...

;)

[VF21]

Nah. They weren't saying Vlade was too old so much as Vlade was so soft and floppy that he was merely a speedbump for Shaq.

If your staff's confidence in Vlade waned, I wish you much luck with Greg Ostertag. It'll be interesting to see how his varied talents are assimilated into the Kings' system.
That's not quite fair, Gargy.

We had already reached the point where it was obvious we were going to need a new starting center. Petrie went out and got Miller, a very good replacement for Divac.

Divac was our back-up center. He left. We acquired a new back-up center, Ostertag, who will be able to do some things Vlade couldn't - he can block shots, he can clog the paint, AND he'll be perfectly happy coming off the bench, something Vlade may have said he had no problem with but was clearly not that happy about.

[Bricklayer]

If your staff's confidence in Vlade waned, I wish you much luck with Greg Ostertag. It'll be interesting to see how his varied talents are assimilated into the Kings' system.

its not that hard:

Brad Miller = Vlade Divac
Greg Ostertag = Scot Pollard
Darius Songaila = Larence Funderburke

The parallels are very obvious and very easy to see. Not sure why it seems so difficult.

[HndsmCelt]

Nah. They weren't saying Vlade was too old so much as Vlade was so soft and floppy that he was merely a speedbump for Shaq.

If your staff's confidence in Vlade waned, I wish you much luck with Greg Ostertag. It'll be interesting to see how his varied talents are assimilated into the Kings' system.You miss the point. Kings staff lost confidence in Vlade as a starter, Tag while not a well rounded player still gets boards, blocks shots and clogs the lane, things the Kings would like to see in a bench player. Vlade was offered THAT job and a given a pay offer to match his ablities to fit that bill. LA offered him a starting job on a young team that looks to run the floor, pentrate the paint and get their star lots of open looks, and at a pay sacale appropriate for that job discription. So the question posed to Laker fans is do you honestly think Vlade can keep up, clog the lane, rebound missed shots and score in the paint agianst starting centers in the leage? It woud apera that you and other Laker appoligist think so, fine time will tell.

For the Kings fan the questions arround Tag are can he give solid min (10-20)behind Brad, getting boards, clogging the lane, blocking and altering shots as part of a second unit? Seems Laker fans question his bality to do this... ok time will tell.

[VF21]

its not that hard:

Brad Miller = Vlade Divac
Greg Ostertag = Scot Pollard
Darius Songaila = Larence Funderburke

The parallels are very obvious and very easy to see. Not sure why it seems so difficult.
Thanks, Brick!

That's a great way of looking at it, IMHO.

[Gargamel]

its not that hard:

Brad Miller = Vlade Divac
Greg Ostertag = Scot Pollard
Darius Songaila = Larence Funderburke

The parallels are very obvious and very easy to see. Not sure why it seems so difficult.
I fully realize that. Greg is still the second of your 2 centers like Vlade.

[Gargamel]

You miss the point. Kings staff lost confidence in Vlade as a starter, Tag while not a well rounded player still gets boards, blocks shots and clogs the lane, things the Kings would like to see in a bench player. Vlade was offered THAT job and a given a pay offer to match his ablities to fit that bill. LA offered him a starting job on a young team that looks to run the floor, pentrate the paint and get their star lots of open looks, and at a pay sacale appropriate for that job discription. So the question posed to Laker fans is do you honestly think Vlade can keep up, clog the lane, rebound missed shots and score in the paint agianst starting centers in the leage? It woud apera that you and other Laker appoligist think so, fine time will tell.

For the Kings fan the questions arround Tag are can he give solid min (10-20)behind Brad, getting boards, clogging the lane, blocking and altering shots as part of a second unit? Seems Laker fans question his bality to do this... ok time will tell.
All of this came out of wishing Greg good luck? Wow.

As to the Laker fan commentary, I agree that Vlade won't do those things and shame on Lakers staff if they think he can. I think Mihm can do those things you listed, however, and I think Vlade can provide some different skills to the mix.

[Bricklayer]

I fully realize that. Greg is still the second of your 2 centers like Vlade.
Vlade was the second of our two centers for roughly two months total (And it turned out he pretty much sucked at the role) out of 6 years.

[HndsmCelt]

All of this came out of wishing Greg good luck? Wow.

As to the Laker fan commentary, I agree that Vlade won't do those things and shame on Lakers staff if they think he can. I think Mihm can do those things you listed, however, and I think Vlade can provide some different skills to the mix.Mihm is an interesting choice as a starter. Having never really been one in the NBA before time will defiantly tell if he can handle more than 20 min a game. My expectaion is that as a starter he will bring out the worst of both he and Vlade. Vlade has been demonstartably ineffective from the bench and with Mihms propencity for fouls I just don't see him as effective beyond the 25 min mark. The more likely move for Rudy T is to start Vlade (when he is able) and back him up with Mihm for extended min. Vlade will produce more but will bog down the offense, and his rebounding will be a definate liablity. Mihm's min will improve boards and speed, but heven forbid he be called on to play low post against an elite Center or have to pass the ball. Then again I could be worg about Mihms play and/or Vlade's ablities.

[Gargamel]

Mihm is an interesting choice as a starter. Having never really been one in the NBA before time will defiantly tell if he can handle more than 20 min a game. My expectaion is that as a starter he will bring out the worst of both he and Vlade. Vlade has been demonstartably ineffective from the bench and with Mihms propencity for fouls I just don't see him as effective beyond the 25 min mark. The more likely move for Rudy T is to start Vlade (when he is able) and back him up with Mihm for extended min. Vlade will produce more but will bog down the offense, and his rebounding will be a definate liablity. Mihm's min will improve boards and speed, but heven forbid he be called on to play low post against an elite Center or have to pass the ball. Then again I could be worg about Mihms play and/or Vlade's ablities.
You could be worg about Mihm. I suspect that Vlade would be more useful in the 2nd unit to help keep the offense flowing with the 2nd stringers. A guy with his passing skills won't bog down offense. Devean George is the type of player who bogs down offense.

Heaven forbid Mihm have to play an elite center? In that case, good thing there aren't too many elite centers. If you consider Brad Miller an elite center, I think Mihm did well against him.

[Lamar_Odom]

Mihm will most likely be a backup this year and could eventually start for the Lakers. He has lots of room for improvement and he is only 25 years old. This year is about learning, finding identity for the Lakers. The expectations are low and it's very understandable since the Lakers are rebuilding. While the Lakers are capable of surprising many, it will have to take a Cinderella season for that to happen. The Lakers will most likly be better than the "experts" give them credit for but they will go no further than the second round of the playoffs. For Vlade, he was signed as a stop gap as the Lakers transition from the Shaq era to the next dominant big man who always seem to find their way to the Lakers. Vlade will help, not as much as he helped the Kings but perhaps more than the Kings fans give him credit for. While Vlade will contribute, this team is not about Vlade.

[Gargamel]

Mihm will most likely be a backup this year and could eventually start for the Lakers. He has lots of room for improvement and he is only 25 years old.
I could be dead wrong on this, but I suspect that Mihm's showing is making Rudy think about that. He may want to keep him in the starting lineup for continuity's sake or until he starts to struggle. Unlike Vlade, Mihm has proven that he can play well with the other starters.

Where's the Lakers lost thread tonight, btw? ;)

[JP_Lakerfan]

Mihm has been playing quite well in the exhibition games, whether he can continue that well into the season remains to be seen. He's still young for a big and has undergone many coaching changes, so I wouldn't look to past years for a comparison. We shall see.

Vlade may be old, he was last year too, but the Kings without question were playing MUCH better when he was in the starting line-up with Miller at the four spot. It still remains to be seen how well the Kings will function without him. Personally, I think they will do ok as long as both Webber and Peja stay healthy and can keep chemistry healthy inspite of their differences.

[VF21]

While Vlade was playing better with Miller at the 4, there's also the consideration that Vlade played better earlier in the season. (Exact same games, different way of looking at them...)

Vlade has been running out of steam towards the end of the season for a couple of years. This year, his performance in the playoffs was abysmal...

I find it ironic how some people (no one in particular, in this instance - just a generality) seem to forget Vlade was on the decline. That's why we got Brad Miller. Had Vlade stayed, Miller would still be our starting center this year because that's just the future of the team.

The Lakers wooed Vlade away with the temptation of more money and a starting position, which I assume has now faded into memory since they're strongly pushing Mihm's talents, etc.

[sloter]

its not that hard:

Brad Miller = Vlade Divac

Yes, but you are forgetting one big thing. Miller's numbers last year were the best when he played alongside Vlade (just like Webber's, Pollard's, Mason's, and Geiger's before him). When Vlade's minutes got reduced, Miller was MUCH less effective, and he was not really stellar in the playoffs either.
My point is: Do not expect Brad Miller to be an all-star this coming year.

[VF21]

Yes, but you are forgetting one big thing. Miller's numbers last year were the best when he played alongside Vlade (just like Webber's, Pollard's, Mason's, and Geiger's before him). When Vlade's minutes got reduced, Miller was MUCH less effective, and he was not really stellar in the playoffs either.
My point is: Do not expect Brad Miller to be an all-star this coming year.Miller played as a PF for a good percentage of the year, and then shifted to center once Webber was back...

Whether you liked Webber coming back or not, Miller arguably was "less effective" because he was actually playing CENTER for the first time - late in the season.

Vlade was NOT the only good player on the Kings. This revisionist history, making him appear to be the only reason the Kings did any good at all, is just disrespectful to him AND the rest of the team.

And for the record? Miller suffered an elbow injury and never really performed quite the same after that. His elbow has completely recovered, however, and there's certainly no reason not to hope he can be effective for us this year.

[sloter]

VF21, I hope you are right. Let's wait and see.

I also didn't say that Vlade was the only good player on the Kings, but he did definitely make EVERYONE around him look better.

[ILV]

While Vlade was playing better with Miller at the 4, there's also the consideration that Vlade played better earlier in the season. (Exact same games, different way of looking at them...)

Vlade has been running out of steam towards the end of the season for a couple of years. This year, his performance in the playoffs was abysmal...

I find it ironic how some people (no one in particular, in this instance - just a generality) seem to forget Vlade was on the decline. That's why we got Brad Miller. Had Vlade stayed, Miller would still be our starting center this year because that's just the future of the team.

The Lakers wooed Vlade away with the temptation of more money and a starting position, which I assume has now faded into memory since they're strongly pushing Mihm's talents, etc.
They don't exactly have a choice since Vlade is injured.

[Mad D]

Whether you liked Webber coming back or not, Miller arguably was "less effective" because he was actually playing CENTER for the first time - late in the season.Did you happen to see the interview were Miller said he struggle at the PF since ''he hates playing against these quick little guys'' as he put it

[sloter]

Did you happen to see the interview were Miller said he struggle at the PF since ''he hates playing against these quick little guys'' as he put it
I thought he was playing out of position too.

[outsider62]

Vlade was NOT the only good player on the Kings. This revisionist history, making him appear to be the only reason the Kings did any good at all, is just disrespectful to him AND the rest of the team.
This is no revisionist history; I would expect Vlade Fan to get the message. Sloter was referring to the fact that every starting forward played alongside Vlade had career years at that time.

Let me repeat their names: Sebalos, Mason, Rice, Web, Peja, and Miller.

But this is the past. I'm not confident how much and how well is Vlade going to play this year. Back injury at old age doesn't sound encouraging.

[Bricklayer]

Miller also got hurt in the middle of the season -- as I recall the first injury coming just before Webber returned. That was a far larger factor in his dropoff than anything else. Was not physically right at any point in the final two months, no matter who he was on the court with.


Vlade's fall off is more curious. I said at the time I was having a hard time believing he aged 10 years right in the middle of the year. His rebounding/defense was miserable all year, but there was still a big falloff in all aspects of the game in the last few months for him that went beyond mere numbers. He just seemed to quit playing there at some point. I hate to say it since I do respect the man, but in light of the way things turned out I have to wonder at this point, could it simply have been him pouting?

[quick dog]

Miller also got hurt in the middle of the season -- as I recall the first injury coming just before Webber returned. That was a far larger factor in his dropoff than anything else. Was not physically right at any point in the final two months, no matter who he was on the court with.


Vlade's fall off is more curious. I said at the time I was having a hard time believing he aged 10 years right in the middle of the year. His rebounding/defense was miserable all year, but there was still a big falloff in all aspects of the game in the last few months for him that went beyond mere numbers. He just seemed to quit playing there at some point. I hate to say it since I do respect the man, but in light of the way things turned out I have to wonder at this point, could it simply have been him pouting?
Brickie, this has to stop. This is the second post recently where I have felt that you are doing my talking for me. I have been thinking the same thing about Vlade. Nobody can deny that Vlade is one of the msot enotional players in the NBA. I think sulking , perhaps even unintentionally, may be possible.

[VF21]

I've felt the same way, although I hesitated to mention it.

I also think that Vlade has lost the hunger. To him, winning the International Championship for his country was arguably the crown to a great career. He doesn't need the NBA title; it doesn't mean the same thing to him that it means to American players...

At this point, I think Vlade still loves the game and loves to play but he's not so driven that he can't see anything else...

[Ryle]

Miller also got hurt in the middle of the season -- as I recall the first injury coming just before Webber returned. That was a far larger factor in his dropoff than anything else. Was not physically right at any point in the final two months, no matter who he was on the court with.


Vlade's fall off is more curious. I said at the time I was having a hard time believing he aged 10 years right in the middle of the year. His rebounding/defense was miserable all year, but there was still a big falloff in all aspects of the game in the last few months for him that went beyond mere numbers. He just seemed to quit playing there at some point. I hate to say it since I do respect the man, but in light of the way things turned out I have to wonder at this point, could it simply have been him pouting?
I frankly don't think that Vlade cares whether the team wins or losses and that was his biggest problem. Always the happy go lucky locker room guy but not one to bust his *** to get a victory. Just my .02 cents.

[VF21]

I think he did care at one time, but I really think winning the World title took away whatever edge he might have had.

[sloter]

Just because Vlade didn't ramble all kinds of nonsense to the media does not mean he did not want to win.
I think Vlade threw his body on the floor more than any other King, although he was the oldest. It all did change upon Webber's return, and I do agree that he did seem somewhat uninterested and like he lost hope towards the playoffs. I don't really blame him for this though as he's not the only one.

[mcsluggo]

Its amazing HOW MUCH everything is, at its heart, just about Chris Webber.

[mcsluggo]

I really like the way Webber handled Afghanistan, at least early on. But why in the hell did he let all those poor innocent Haitians die last month, that was just simply a selfish bastardly thing to do. Oh well, I'm sure Bostonians are glad he finally let the (red)Sox win a World Series. I just hope he chooses correctly in this upcoming pres election... the stakes are high.

[ILV]

This thread is way out there....as soon as Vlade left the bashing begins.

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

... I think Vlade threw his body on the floor more than any other King, although he was the oldest...
No King threw his body on the floor more than Brad Miller.

Its amazing HOW MUCH everything is, at its heart, just about Chris Webber.
That's because some people are determined to make everything about Chris Webber...

[sloter]

No King threw his body on the floor more than Brad Miller.


That's because some people are determined to make everything about Chris Webber...Well, those two were supposedly the target of Webber's "critique" in that interview.

[PejaFanatic]

No King threw his body on the floor more than Brad Miller.


So true, and the least has to be...he's my boy, so I ain't gonna say his name. :D

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well, those two were supposedly the target of Webber's "critique" in that interview.
"Supposedly" according to whom?

[sloter]

We've been over this before and I'm not going to go back into it.
My goal was to defend Vlade against all those who are diminishing everything he did for this ballclub. I feel like there is very little uncertainty about why Vlade was looking unhappy towards the end of the season. You are all free to take your own guesses.

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well, I'm glad you're certain. I, however, am not certain why he was sulking, or whatever you want to call it, and I'm not predisposed to blaming one person's behavior on another person.

[Bricklayer]

A don't think there's much douobt that a number of Webb's comments in that interview were aimed at Vlade. On the other hand I also don't think that that fact has much of anything to do with his declining prodcutivity, other than the pouting scenario. And if Vlade was pouting, well shame on him. Doesn't wipe out his contributions over the years, but its still not professional. You're getting paid $12 mil the least you can do is bust your *** no matter how you're feeling about things.

Anyway, those comments were also clearly aimed at people who worked hard DURING THE OFFSEASON/PRACTICE. And obviously Vlade never did that. Regardless of the relative importance of offseason work, Vlade was simply guitlty ont hat count. He was a great contributor in spite of his offseason regimen, or lack thereof, not because of it.

As for he Brad Miller thing -- that's largely a bunch of bunk. I don't hink his omission of Brad in his list of hard workers was by accident. It was also the least possible criticism you can aim at somebody. "Oh no! You left me off your list!!!" And it may very well be true. Brad hasn't impressed me as a gym rat during the offseason either. Again, the importance of the gym rat thing may be being overblown, but if that is the charge, probably both guys are guilty as charged.

In any case, its more than a little ridiculous that a Vlade thread is about Webb. Vlade got old. Bottomline. Whatever other issues he had in his final year (and in retrospect it seems apparent that he may have lost his universal ambassador status a bit and started playing favorites for some reason) the fact of the matter is that he got OLD. That's why Miller was brought in in the first place. Vlade was fading. Even if we had resigned him we would have been coming off the bench at this stage, and we would have had severe problems with our interior defense with nary a shotblocker on the team barring a miraculous recovery by Webb. Vlade got old, he wasn't the player he had once been. Would have been nice to see him retire here, but egos entirely aside, it was going to be a bit problematic. And the difference is just a few years of declining production off the bench. It is not the huge deal people have made it out to be.

[JP_Lakerfan]

Hey Brick, are you trying to say Vlade got old? Just checking. ;)

[sloter]

Yeah, Vlade should have taken part in Webber's more standard off-season basketball program - smoking weed. Or was that during the season ?
Anyhow, it is no secret that Vlade is well past his prime and that his personal stats are declining, but they were never really that impressive during his Kings days anyway. However you can't deny that the team didn't play well during some stretches last season mostly because of him when he averaged close to 7 or 8 APG (when he played significant minutes). In my opinion, he still was the key factor for the Kings until late in the season.

[VF21]

Yeah, Vlade should have taken part in Webber's more standard off-season basketball program - smoking weed. Or was that during the season ?
Anyhow, it is no secret that Vlade is well past his prime and that his personal stats are declining, but they were never really that impressive during his Kings days anyway. However you can't deny that the team didn't play well during some stretches last season mostly because of him when he averaged close to 7 or 8 APG (when he played significant minutes). In my opinion, he still was the key factor for the Kings until late in the season.
So this is ANOTHER dig at Webber?

:rolleyes:

Chris Webber did community service in Detroit, as outlined by the court. He also had time to keep fit, work on the rehab of his knee, etc.

Almost everyone who has seen Webb has commented on how fit he looks.

Why should it matter? Why does everything/everyone have to be compared to Webber?

[VF21]

This thread is way out there....as soon as Vlade left the bashing begins.
You and I have been two of Vlade's biggest fans on this site.

I don't think it's bashing to admit that Vlade is on the downside of his career. He's been in the NBA a long time and considering how often he also played during the summer for his national team, it was only a matter of when he would start to decline not if...

We got Brad Miller because the Maloofs, Petrie, Adelman, etc. knew they would soon have to replace Vlade as starting center. It might not be fair or what we want, but basketball is a young man's game.

If you asked Vlade, he would say the same thing. It's not bashing to face the inevitable...unfortunately.

[ILV]

The bashing part is saying he doesn't care if we won, etc.

[Bricklayer]

The bashing part is saying he doesn't care if we won, etc.Well that charge had been laid on Vlade for years before he even left. When it was his turn to be the scapegoat, that was the excuse. Never really bought it. But I will say that I don't think he was desperate to win a championship. Not in the same way some guys are. I don't think he really felt he needed it for validation of his career.

[scarlet_steph]

Well that charge had been laid on Vlade for years before he even left. When it was his turn to be the scapegoat, that was the excuse. Never really bought it. But I will say that I don't think he was desperate to win a championship. Not in the same way some guys are. I don't think he really felt he needed it for validation of his career.
I totally agree. Vlade has done well for his career...although it would be nice if he won a championship...but it doesn't seem like the end all and be all for him.

[ILV]

I totally agree. Vlade has done well for his career...although it would be nice if he won a championship...but it doesn't seem like the end all and be all for him.
Hey SS I miss you! Now that your a successful career woman we never hear from you.

[scarlet_steph]

Hey SS I miss you! Now that your a successful career woman we never hear from you.

I miss you too! Don't worry, I'm back! I may not get to post as often, but I'll be around! :)

[6th]

I miss you too! Don't worry, I'm back! I may not get to post as often, but I'll be around! :)
That is truly wonderful news. Steph is back!!! Just post as often as you can, steph. Anything you say is always appreciated.