Grades v. Sonics 04/29

[Bricklayer]

Peja ( D+ ) -- came out in the first half and was again invisible. Really invisible. No scoring, no rebounding, no assists. Stayed in front of Lewis, but he was just a another guy, or even worse. Resumed his passive play in the third, but finally woke up late in the quarter and went on a mini-offensive run and grabbed his first rebound. Did nothing of real note therafter, but picked up a couple of more loose boards, and hit a couple of free throws. I'm taking a bit of a speculative leap with Peja's grade here -- basically to all appearances he sucked and was irrelevant for any starter, let along a theoretical star. But on the other end of the floor Rashard Lewis was very quiet as well. Now Peja did nothing obvious to cause those difficulties (no steals, no blocks, few altered shots). But he was solid and stayed in front of Lewis throughout, and so tonight Peja's grade is being saved somewhat by a) us winning; and b) a theoretical connection between Lewis' struggles and Peja's defense.
Thomas ( A- ) -- has played better at home ever since we got him, and continued the trend in a big way in the first half tonight. Didn't grow any taller in the last few days, but played a smart first half and beat the Sonics bigs with quickness and the jumper rather than trying to fight a losing battle of muscle with them. Also came out and played a very aggressive third driving the ball hard at the Sonics and taking advantage of James being drawn away from the hoop by Miller's presence. Got into foul trouble late in the third and was rarely on the floor therafter, and a nonfactor late. In general played a strong game on his terms, and made Evans ineffective by making the game about quickness and shooting rather than power, size and hustle. Boardwork was middling, but was easily the best of our bigs.
Miller ( B- ) -- made a difference with his outside presence against the limited Sonics big men. Still was doing the stupid "I-don't want-to-shoot" thing early, even while being left WIDE open, but after he was finally coaxed into taking one and hitting it, took another, then another, then a drive etc. Again gave us nothing on the glass, and was having major trouble with scrub-turned-star James once more. But was at least hurting the Sonics back the other way and his unique skillset posed problems for the Sonics and hleped open up things for the rest of the team.
Mobley ( B+ ) -- modest first half, but started out nicely aggressive on Allen on defense. After returning in the second quarter defense was not as intense, but did hit a big three to stem a big charge by the Sonics late in the half. Second half was more on than off -- hit some confident shots, but also forced a few OVER-confident shots. Never went through an extended cold streak though, and generally played within the structure of the offense rather than breaking us down with freelancing. Obviously did not slow down Allen much -- guy is having a true star series for them. But Cat competed and mitigated the damage somewhat by scoring on his own as well. Picked up a late technical for arguing for no apparent reason at all. I would suggest duct tape as the obvious solution, but I'm sure there's some charity somewhere who appreciates the constant stream of donations from Cat's mouth.
Bibby ( A ) -- we finally figured out who was going to step up and give us a star playoff performance in this series, and it was Mike Bibby. Was great for the first 18 minutes of the game, scoring aggressively, grabbing big rebounds, being pesky on defense -- huge energy effort. Got quiet late in the half though as his energy may have waned, and he was fairly quiet in the third. Stepped back up late though and finsihed with a big game in a big game. Only real complaint was that it was more about his own offense than creating for teammates tonight, but we badly needed somebody to selfishly step forward and say "I'm a star and I'm going to make sure we win this", and tonight it was Mike.
Songaila ( C- ) -- didn't do much in his stints except play physically and pick up fouls in record time. Well not quite record time. Danny Fortson was even outfouling Darius. But 5 fouls in 12 minutes meant another wasted night regardless. Can't help from the bench.
Jackson ( B ) -- energetic first half stint while we were rolling. Played strong defense on Allen. Got stuck in the middle of the much mocked three midget assualt that I will talk about in Rick's grade. Bobby was the OG. Cat the SF! Sigh. Few real impact moments until the last minute of the game when it was already decided. Grabbed a big board and hit a three to send the crowd home happy. But overall game was good but not great.
Evans ( C+ ) -- had the requisite energy in his first half stint, and grabbed a couple of boards. Nothing else though and did not return in the second half despite Peja's struggles (we decided to go with Cat as a SF instead :eek: ).
Skinner ( D ) -- his entry into the game late in the first half (back ahead of Tag in the rotation) with Brad in foul trouble coincided with our late fade in that half. Again not big enough to deal with James, and turned the ball over a couple of times on a travel and a 3 second call. Came back in for a couple of minutes as a PF in place of the foul-a-minute Darius, but was quickly replaced by Corliss and did not return. In 6 minutes only statistical contribution was 2 TOs.
Williamson ( B- ) -- came in for the first time with a few minutes to go at the end of the third quarter, even at one point teaming with Peja and three guards for the ultimate ridiculous flea lineup. Think he was intially in there just as a *bleep* you move to Danny Fortson (see grade below), but with Darius out and Rick in love with midget ball, we stuck with him as our new PF. Was active and got to the line. Was also still a stubby 6'5" who could probably pick lint out of Jerome James' belly button with his tongue. Rick tired of mite-ball reasonably quick and reinserted a semi-normal lineup for the stretch run.


Crowd ( A ) -- arguably won the game for the Kings tonight. We won this one almost purely on that intial big burst of energy to start our first home playoff game. First quarter Kings +12, last three quarters dead even.
Forston ( A+ ) -- knucklehead. Just about says it all. And we really need to get him on the payroll. Actually he already plays like he is. I'm thinking maybe just a nice targeted payment to the Spurs to sign him in the offseason or something. He can be our Trojan horse. ;)



Adelman ( B ) -- I of course briefly had dark thoughts of flat out flunking him for his Peja/Corliss/Mobley/Bobby/Bibby experiment, which he not only used once at the end of the third quarter, but INTENTIONALLY went back to some 5 or 6 minutes later in the 4th. But overall performance was generally solid and so I will attemtp to overlook the Nelliesque-never-won-a-damn-thing-in-the-playoffs-because-small-ball-is-weak lunacy for the minute. This game was about our starters, and about our start, as in the start to the game. The opening quarter provided the margin of victory, and after that it was just one long struggle to maintain a 7-14 point lead for three quarters. Never let them really get close. Were never able to truly put them away. Were scoring enough that our defensive issues did not kill us (the Sonics scored 105 in Game 2 and beat us easily, scored 104 tonight and lose by 12). Rick did experiment with some wacky bench combinations, but at least partially because the bench didn't give us much tonight and Rick was looking for answers. Called a few good timeouts to break up Sonics runs. And tonight I think we executed the gameplan that I think Rick wanted to use in Game 2 -- concede that the Sonics are the bigger + tougher team and try to as somebody said "expose" their big men by attacking them with quickness and finesse. Strength on strength, we lose. So Rick tried to turn it into strength (Sonics) on finesse (us) and tonight finesse got the upper hand (James excepted -- we still have no answer there). If we're going to pull this series out, probably has to be the hope from here on out. Play to our strengths rather than theirs. And of course does not hurt to get a star level performance out of one of your main guys (Mike).

[CokeBee]

i give ARCO an A+ :p
I heard Cowbell

[BigWaxer]

I am ready time to catch up on the sleep I didn't get last night

[PejaFanatic]

ARCO was crackin'!!

Oh yeah, Gavin does love the camera. =P

[BigWaxer]

^^ Who likes it more Gavin or Cuban?

[PixelPusher]

^^ Who likes it more Gavin or Cuban?

I'm not sure, but I know the camera likes Gavin more than Cuban.:eek:

[BigWaxer]

adding to that nobody likes to look at cuban on the camera when he looks like a freak on the sidelines

HURRY UP BRICK :)

[SacTownKid]

The starters get good grades. How about that Kenny Thomas though!? Man he had one hell of a game. It was about time that he woke up, used his quickness and took it to James.

This was Bibbys night for sure. Cat did very well. Peja was off but did a good job on D, and Brad was Brad. Sans the rebounds.

[RAIDER925]

team derserves an A.. Great performance out there tonight!

[quick dog]

I found it incredible that Brad Miller got no assists tonight!

Mo Evans got two rebounds and no points.

Peja played great defense, picked up chicken fouls, and made very few baskets. Peja deserves a B- for defense and effort.

Jerome James appears to be legitimate.

Mike Bibby was an Allstar.

That was fun.

[ImaKingsFan]

adding to that nobody likes to look at cuban on the camera when he looks like a freak on the sideline

When the Mavs are losing and he looks like that.. I must admit I kinda like it.:D

[Pacboy]

Peja should get a C. Good Defense but 3 boards, no assist, no block, and 10 pts on 3/10 is not good enough.

[PixelPusher]

I found it incredible that Brad Miller got no assists tonight!

That's because the Sonics continued to leave Brad all alone on the high post, covering (and doubling) the other 4 Kings on the floor, so Brad had to "settle" for wide open jump shots.:D

[chelle]

Peja should get a C. Good Defense but 3 boards, no assist, no block, and 10 pts on 3/10 is not good enough.


It's enough if we win. Now, if we had lost . . .

[SIR HENRY 8]

I'll leave the individual grades up to Brick,and just say i thought they all played well,and it sure was good to see!Team grade A.

[swisshh]

Bibby and Thomas get an A from me. The team still only had 14 assists though, which is rather troubling. Mobley didn't seem to get the share the ball memo, but he was hot shooting the ball. The biggest adjustment and change was that they were getting to the hoop and being sent to the line, which wasn't happening in Seattle. Also found it kind of odd that Ostertag wasn't used when the Kings were in foul trouble.

[AriesMar27]

fan with trash bag: A+++ that was a riot.... the way that they showed him waving the bag.......

[Venom]

I will go ahead and say that Peja's D did contribute to Lewis playing poorly. Peja's only talent on defense is face-guarding. He cannot help. He cannot rebound. But, you can tell him to follow a guy and he will. Kudos to Adelman for simplifying things for Peja and making him effective on defense in some form or fashion.

[PT Cruiser 9ROC]

The trash bag was hysterical. I busted up like a lunatic when I saw that. But Arco was BUMPIN tonight! My goodness...I was so caught up in the madness. Awesome crowd tonight. And the glow-stick axe seemed stupid to do at first, but seeing the entire arena get into it made everything amazing. If that doesn't get you pumped up for a game of basketball, you're hopeless! Great grades, Brick.

[ESP47]

How come Adelman never put Tag in?

[BigWaxer]

D for Peja .. that is to nice. Factor in past playoff history... F

[chelle]

Come on now, Peja must have had some impact on keeping Lewis quiet. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt - a C for tonight. We won, so maybe I am feeling a little gracious.

[sloter]

...First quarter Kings +12, last three quarters dead even.


I find it extremely annoying to look at the game that way. The way I look at it is that we had the control of the game the whole time ...

[Vlad]

Kings Team play: C

I'm very worried about the Kings. The home crowd/good shooting got us a win, but I can't see the Kings winning the series if they keep playing selfish ball.

Same as last game... I barely saw any ball movement. The main culprits are Mobley and Jackson. It seems like every time they touch the ball, their only agenda is to jack up a shot. But it's not only them. No one really seems to be looking for the open guys.

[Bricklayer]

I find it extremely annoying to look at the game that way. The way I look at it is that we had the control of the game the whole time ...

That's true too. Never relinquished it. But if the game had started 12 minutes later we wouldn't have had control -- it would have been a dead even dogfight leading to OT. Just thought we hit them with our best punch (and Arco's) early, preyed upon their inexperience in that sort of environment, got the nice lead and made it stick rather than pouring it on and outclassing them the whole game. Did what we had to do in professional manner, but I don't think its the sort of demoralizing pounding that could shake their confidence.

Hopefully we can bring that one on Sunday. :)

[SacTownKid]

Kings Team play: C

I'm very worried about the Kings. The home crowd/good shooting got us a win, but I can't see the Kings winning the series if they keep playing selfish ball.

Same as last game... I barely saw any ball movement. The main culprits are Mobley and Jackson. It seems like every time they touch the ball, they have one agenda--to jack up a shot. But it's not only them. No one really seems to be looking for the open guys.

Actually I thought that the ball movement was pretty good. There were a lot of questionable shots but I think over all they moved the ball well. But 14 assists won't get it done most nights.

[sloter]

Hopefully we can bring that one on Sunday. :)

Indeeed.

[N.U.F.A.N.]

Another interresting stat... is that all starters scored in double digits tonight. I guess sitting out that last game, really motivated them.

[love_them_kings]

I agree with the grades except for Peja. Just got back from the game and I have to say that although Peja was a nonfactor for many parts of the game offensively, he played well defensively, hustled, and seemed to want to shoot. Where there have been nights in the past where I felt he was shying away from the shot, tonight I felt like he wanted to shoot but was completely covered. And, the hard rebound where he took it all the way down the court and scored it should be good for at least a C-.

Brad falls into a very,very slim group of NBA players where you wish he would be MORE selfish. Don't know if you could hear it on the TV, but at two points in the first quarter you could clearly hear the crowd saying "SHOOT IT!" when Brad had the ball!

[Vlad]

Actually I thought that the ball movement was pretty good. There were a lot of questionable shots but I think over all they moved the ball well. But 14 assists won't get it done most nights.

i don't know... I remember Magic saying he never remembered the Kings playing such selfish basketball during game 2. I hope this is not a trend.

[chelle]

i don't know... I remember Magic saying he never remembered the Kings playing such selfish basketball during game 2. I hope this is not a trend.

I think part of the reason we were such a good passing team was that the team had played together for so long. They had trust in each other and KNEW where each other would be, when they would be there, and what they were going to do. This team has not played together long enough to have that trust yet. Also, Adleman said that when we had Vlade, Webb, and Doug we had a much smarter team. All of that plays a part. I am not sure if the team is being selfish or if it is just a case of not trusting each other yet. Bibby passed to ball to Peja a lot tonight, he was just missing.

[N.U.F.A.N.]

I think part of the reason we were such a good passing team was that the team had played together for so long. They had trust in each other and KNEW where each other would be, when they would be there, and what they were going to do. This team has not played together long enough to have that trust yet. Also, Adleman said that when we had Vlade, Webb, and Doug we had a much smarter team. All of that plays a part. I am not sure if the team is being selfish or if it is just a case of not trusting each other yet. Bibby passed to ball to Peja a lot tonight, he was just missing.

I remember my basketball team... We knew each other and played with each other for so long, that we were comfortable with each other. Because of this, our school won the championship 4 years in a row. theres new people now, i heard they went 3 in a row since i left. makes it 7.

[kennadog]

Well, I don't really agree. Peja played very good defense on Lewis and had a lot to do with Lewis not scoring. I specifically focused on Peja's defense during parts of the game (not the 1st time this year). Peja does a very good job of staying in front of his man, but also, when being posted up he did a great job of standing his ground. Some of the other Kings should take some lessons, because they sure have a hard time holding their ground with James. If other Kings are shooting well, I'll settle for a wash between Peja and Lewis.

As for Brad....he made a huge difference in the game, simply because he was there to play the high post pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop with Bibby. Adelman used him, Songaila and KT at the high post. And Bibby really ran Ridnour ragged off that high post offense tonight.

It was also clear that there were a lot more drives tonight by Bibby and Cuttino, but also by the high post players, especially Brad and KT. But when you have a lot more drives to the basket, that cuts down on assists. But a lot more free throws tonight. And the Kings aced it from the line tonight.

Adelman made a lot of adjustments for this game. I think he deserves a lot of the credit for this win, too.

[GoGoGadget]

Was also still a stubby 6'5" who could probably pick lint out of Jerome James' belly button with his tongue.

Lovely image to go to sleep to. Thank you for that. :eek:

[bozzwell]

Depending on what your expectations are, Pedja's grade is either spot on or just half-a-grade low. Basically, he cannot get an extra credit for playing good defence on Lewis because we've come to expect Pedja to be our only player that is defensively committed to his man throughout the game. As was pointed out (many times) Pedja doesn't have stopper's ability on defence (blocking, speed, athleticism) so he is really doing it by being disciplined and commited. That's credit to Pedja, but not enough to elevate him to B- or C+.

Especially tonight when he wasn't quite invisible, instead he rendered himself irrelevant for the most part by trying to outrun his marker on almost every posession. I mean, does he ever look at the tape of these PO games where he struggles? If the defender who is usually either more athletic or faster then him (or both) is shadowing him, Pedja trying to "run away" often ends up with Pedja running away from the play development. He really needs to time those little runs (whether there is a screen or not) better and maybe even run less, but run with purpose and in bursts. You may even call it being aggressive. Take a look first, see what defense is giving up (not necessarily your man - you know that he is following you) and run as and when needed. The worst case scenarion is that he will be in better position for offensive boards or to recover on defense.

Another thing that is starting to bother me is that he has not yet developed his passing game to the point that he can beat double teams by passing to an open man. He clearly can pass well in other situations but it seemed at times tonight that he was holding the ball for too long in the face of double team.

He probably deserves that C (or C-) because he did work hard on both ends, but on offensive end he just didn't play that smart. Vlade, Webb and DC are not coming back and neither is that free flowing game with laser beam passing any time soon, so he better get used to it.

[KingKong]

What I noticed:

Miller did a freaking great job setting picks for Bibby, to the point that he knocked Ridnour so hard to the ground that he seemed like he was crying on the bench. I wanna see a lot more of that if we are to make this a series.

Nobody on our team can guard Jerome James, he's looking more and more like Shaq the way he was knocking Miller around.

Peja was awful. Granted he was getting hounded by the sonics defense, but he wilted under the pressure again. Miller needs to start setting some screens for Peja as well cos an unopen Peja is pretty much a useless Peja.... actually he might be a liability.

Eventhough Allen score 30+ pts, I thought Cat's D on him was great throughout the game, he did lose some of his defensive intensity midway through the game when Ray Allen started going off, however I liked the way Cat pressured him all game.

Skinner was completety inefficient as Brick points out. He also quite a few turnovers and was really getting on my nerves at times. I thought RA might put Tag in when all the froncourt players were in foul trouble.... I guess not.

I loved the way all the players attacked the rim, we need to see a lot more of that throughout the series.

[kennadog]

In case you'd like to read the Seattle paper's articles. This links to one and then there's a place to link to several others, including a nice one saying the fans at Arco lived up to their reputation. Since I was there, I'll take the compliment personally. :D

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002258353_soni30.html

Oh yeah...I love the pic of Bibby knocking over Fortson! :D

[bibbinator]

The thing to watch with Peja, which you don't usually see on TV and don't get from his numbers, is how much energy the defense puts into shutting him down. Every team the Kings go up against has to figure out how to keep him from getting his shots. If opponents treated Peja like a typical player he'd be good for 30+ a night. But he usually doesn't and that's because opponents do whatever they can to get other Kings to take those perimeter shots.

When Peja draws extra defense it opens up opportunities for other Kings. What Peja scores is only part of the story, it's the resources he consumes of the opponent that makes him so valuable. I'd give Peja a B+ tonight. I'll save the A for when he does put up better numbers and we win.

I'd give Miller an A. Miller is the leader of the team and the fact that the Kings didn't get their game together until he really played shows that. The thing we need to do against Seattle is rebound. We can out score Seattle, but only if we have the ball. The first two games was like watching Seattle play Horse at times. They'd take a shot, miss, get the rebound, take another shot, miss, get the rebound, and keep going till they got it. Sac then got the ball, would take their shot, miss and then not get the rebound. Miller and Tag break the Seattle rebound cycle and that is the true key to beating them.

The key to beating Seattle is to always have Miller or Tag in the game.

Sure, Tag, is a drag on the offense, but if you don't have the ball your offense doesn't do you much good. You can only score when you have possession, and Tag gets us possession. Tag doesn't just get us possesion by his actions, Seattle will have to play around him: Tag complicates the obvious play by his mere presence and thus forces more difficult plays by the opponent.

The winning combination for this series is to back Miller with Tag. If RA does that, Seattle will not be able to stop the Kings.

Again, Tag backs Miller, one of those two always on the court, the Kings beat Seattle.
I can't see how they can stop us if we give them a few less rebounds.

OK. Now I'm in ramble mode. Good win tonight. Team gets an A+ for getting the win.

[kennadog]

^^I'm on the same page with most of that.

[Venom]

About the passing. . .Adelman seems to have simplified the offense, initiating everything with a high pick and fade, particularly when James is in the game. It was brutally effective, like when Ridnour got leveled. It creates more isolation and two man game stuff, so less possessions where all 5 players get a touch. But, due to inexperience and the current talents on this team, that's how we have to win. Once again, props to Adelman for adjusting during the off days.

[Raci]

Team get B +,only 14 as and 30 reb,thats not good,tonight was just good individual game couple of players and that is no way to win this serial.What will hapened when that shot be worse than 50 %.
This is for me still shaky,they must stop James finaly and get dominate on C position,make more passis,play stronger d.

[Folsom Al]

That was THE BEST game I have ever been to at Arco ... and I've been to a few playoffs games there.

The energy ... the emotion ... the intensity ... the focus .... now remember, I'm talking about the fans ... it was GREAT !!!!

I barely have my voice .... musta yelled DEFENSE at least a several hundred times.

It got so loud, I could not hear my daughter yellin' and screamin' right at me and she was sitting right next to me ... I WANTED MORE !!!!

ARCO gets an A+

The guys played their hearts out ... I'm not gonna bad-talk anybody ... they all deserve the strokes (however ... Peja, good job on THE D ... let's get that O going).

[Raci]

Come on now, Peja must have had some impact on keeping Lewis quiet. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt - a C for tonight. We won, so maybe I am feeling a little gracious.


Lewis had 9 p,why not be gracious,i say C aslo.Peja want terrorize shot when he dont go in barn,he let others to shots.

[Raci]

Kings Team play: C

I'm very worried about the Kings. The home crowd/good shooting got us a win, but I can't see the Kings winning the series if they keep playing selfish ball.

Same as last game... I barely saw any ball movement. The main culprits are Mobley and Jackson. It seems like every time they touch the ball, their only agenda is to jack up a shot. But it's not only them. No one really seems to be looking for the open guys.

I agree.

[kperica]

Depending on what your expectations are, Pedja's grade is either spot on or just half-a-grade low. Basically, he cannot get an extra credit for playing good defence on Lewis because we've come to expect Pedja to be our only player that is defensively committed to his man throughout the game. As was pointed out (many times) Pedja doesn't have stopper's ability on defence (blocking, speed, athleticism) so he is really doing it by being disciplined and commited. That's credit to Pedja, but not enough to elevate him to B- or C+.

Why not? First of all, don't underestimate defense on Lewis. He's their second best player, and Peja did a fantastic good job on him. 9 pts. on 2-10 shooting with 1 assist for someone who averages 20.5 points on 46% shooting. Meanwhile, Mike and Brad continue to make James and Ridnour look like all-NBA first teamers. 50% of the game is on the defensive end. Bricklayer gave our 4th highest scorer a B- tonight despite no defense (Brad); our best defender gets the same despite no offense.
Not to mention, Peja's shot was off tonight, and he became passive. Which is, to me, a good thing, especially considering how hot mike was and how Brad eventually got going for a while. I think Peja not taking a lot of shots was a smart move - remember, the Sonics spent a lot of practice yesterday working out defensive schemes to not let Peja get the ball in scoring positions, which, for example, left Brad open a lot (what, you think James was told to play off a decent jump-shooter just for the heck of it?).
Overall, though, good to see Mike get going, Brad beginning to look like his old self (right up to allowing the crowd to pressure him into taking open shots when he's looking to pass - always fun to watch the decision play out across his face), and great contributions from a couple of key players (Cuttino, Thomas).
One more and we're back in this thing! Go Kings!

[6th]

We are so used to Peja being a scorer....and for years, not so hot on defense. Actually, I was rather proud of Peja last night. His offense was clearly off. So, most of the time he kept his defender away from the action and didn't try to do too much on that end since others were obviously coming through. C'mon, we scored 116 pts with Peja only having 12. We obviously didn't need him much on that end of the court.

About Defense....Peja has earned the right to be called a pretty decent defender. He has worked hard on that part of his game and it shows. To hold Lewis to 9 pts was a battle. And, it was not just last night. Lewis is being held way under average for the series.

Maybe it is time to start grading Peja with a different eye. He was a tremendous asset last night....not at all times, but he was definitely a useful part of this win. I give him a B-

[Zyphen]

The first 2 games, it seemed to me that Lewis' production or lack thereof had more to do with him than Peja. Lewis had a great shooting night the first game, not so hot the 2nd. Peja didn't really do anything different. I didn't see a change in intensity either. Lewis just missed the same shots he always takes.

This 3rd game, I'm rather uncertain. Peja definitely was pushing it more. He picked up some borderline fouls and really made an effort to keep on Lewis. There's no clear indication, but it looked like he bothered Lewis. He did get slipped by Lewis a few times (most notably in the 2nd quarter). But overall a better than expected job. At least that's what it looked like.

I'll give Peja a C-. The rest of his play was abysmal.

Edit: actually now that I think back, it was pretty obvious that Lewis was getting doubled more the 2nd game... RA probably made adjustments

[Team Dime]

The thing to watch with Peja, which you don't usually see on TV and don't get from his numbers, is how much energy the defense puts into shutting him down. Every team the Kings go up against has to figure out how to keep him from getting his shots. If opponents treated Peja like a typical player he'd be good for 30+ a night. But he usually doesn't and that's because opponents do whatever they can to get other Kings to take those perimeter shots.

When Peja draws extra defense it opens up opportunities for other Kings. What Peja scores is only part of the story, it's the resources he consumes of the opponent that makes him so valuable. I'd give Peja a B+ tonight. I'll save the A for when he does put up better numbers and we win.

I'd give Miller an A. Miller is the leader of the team and the fact that the Kings didn't get their game together until he really played shows that. The thing we need to do against Seattle is rebound. We can out score Seattle, but only if we have the ball. The first two games was like watching Seattle play Horse at times. They'd take a shot, miss, get the rebound, take another shot, miss, get the rebound, and keep going till they got it. Sac then got the ball, would take their shot, miss and then not get the rebound. Miller and Tag break the Seattle rebound cycle and that is the true key to beating them.

The key to beating Seattle is to always have Miller or Tag in the game.

Sure, Tag, is a drag on the offense, but if you don't have the ball your offense doesn't do you much good. You can only score when you have possession, and Tag gets us possession. Tag doesn't just get us possesion by his actions, Seattle will have to play around him: Tag complicates the obvious play by his mere presence and thus forces more difficult plays by the opponent.

The winning combination for this series is to back Miller with Tag. If RA does that, Seattle will not be able to stop the Kings.

Again, Tag backs Miller, one of those two always on the court, the Kings beat Seattle.
I can't see how they can stop us if we give them a few less rebounds.

OK. Now I'm in ramble mode. Good win tonight. Team gets an A+ for getting the win.

The bottom line is that Peja needs to mature and develop to the point where he can overcome defenses focusing on him in the playoffs. He clearly has the talent to do this, he just has to put his mind up to it. I don't think Peja or any of us should be satisfied with his performance tonight. We need him to be an effective scorer to win in the playoffs. This was the biggest game of the year following a complete no-show, especially by the the starters in game 2. Everyone expected the players to show alot of pride and to produce in a big way tonight. To come out and basically be invisible is completely unacceptable. I would be alittle worried about Bibby's back right now, since he carried Peja the whole game.

[Twix]

ARCO gets in A++! Great crowd.

I thought Brad had a good game even though he didn't get any assists. He made the jumpers that the Sonics let him do. It's just so funny seeing Brad standing looking for someone to pass to and he's wide open. :D Thank God he started shooting them.

I'll probably give Pedja a B-. I thought Sonics game plan for this game it seem, was to double Pedja every time he touched the ball. That was the reason why Pedja was having trouble getting open and good looks. I didn't think it was Pedja's that was just not wanting the ball, wanting to be a nobody, etc. Credit goes to Sonics D on him. They did a good job taking Pedja out of his offense. Of course, Pedja should had been more aggresive, but when he did that, he was just forcing shots and missing badly. It wasn't until the 4th Qtr where he started having better looks and making them. He also did great D on Rashard and got a few huge rebounds in the last few mins of the game.

[coolhandluke]

Peja gets a B- at least. Who knew that he would turn out to be a good defender on a crappy defensive team? Lewis did not get enough spacing to even get a proper shot off. As far as offense goes, he was sub par. But then again the Kings set a grand total of 4 screens, not counting the half-assed ones, for Peja and he nailed 2 of those shots. It looked like the Kings were content to use him to spread the floor and the rest of the guys stepped up and made the open shots. The bottom line is without Peja's defense, we would not have won this game.

Of course, the Arco crowd get an A+. The fans willed the team to the win. :)

[bozzwell]

Why not? First of all, don't underestimate defense on Lewis. He's their second best player, and Peja did a fantastic good job on him. 9 pts. on 2-10 shooting with 1 assist for someone who averages 20.5 points on 46% shooting. Meanwhile, Mike and Brad continue to make James and Ridnour look like all-NBA first teamers. 50% of the game is on the defensive end. Bricklayer gave our 4th highest scorer a B- tonight despite no defense (Brad); our best defender gets the same despite no offense.
Not to mention, Peja's shot was off tonight, and he became passive. Which is, to me, a good thing, especially considering how hot mike was and how Brad eventually got going for a while. I think Peja not taking a lot of shots was a smart move - remember, the Sonics spent a lot of practice yesterday working out defensive schemes to not let Peja get the ball in scoring positions, which, for example, left Brad open a lot (what, you think James was told to play off a decent jump-shooter just for the heck of it?).
Overall, though, good to see Mike get going, Brad beginning to look like his old self (right up to allowing the crowd to pressure him into taking open shots when he's looking to pass - always fun to watch the decision play out across his face), and great contributions from a couple of key players (Cuttino, Thomas).
One more and we're back in this thing! Go Kings!

I agree with you about Pedja's D (maybe my original post was not clear), but I look at it the same way as I look at his FT shooting. It is given and not really something that I would look at to swing his grade more then half a grade (i.e. from D+ to C).

[AleksandarN]

Like I said all along Pedja's defense is underrated and undervalued. The thing that pisses me off is his lack of aggression. We need him to nut up period. Demand the ball once in your life Pedja do not be content just to watch other people shoot, demand the fricken ball.:mad:

[Twix]

Why not? First of all, don't underestimate defense on Lewis. He's their second best player, and Peja did a fantastic good job on him. 9 pts. on 2-10 shooting with 1 assist for someone who averages 20.5 points on 46% shooting. Meanwhile, Mike and Brad continue to make James and Ridnour look like all-NBA first teamers. 50% of the game is on the defensive end. Bricklayer gave our 4th highest scorer a B- tonight despite no defense (Brad); our best defender gets the same despite no offense.
Not to mention, Peja's shot was off tonight, and he became passive. Which is, to me, a good thing, especially considering how hot mike was and how Brad eventually got going for a while. I think Peja not taking a lot of shots was a smart move - remember, the Sonics spent a lot of practice yesterday working out defensive schemes to not let Peja get the ball in scoring positions, which, for example, left Brad open a lot (what, you think James was told to play off a decent jump-shooter just for the heck of it?).
Overall, though, good to see Mike get going, Brad beginning to look like his old self (right up to allowing the crowd to pressure him into taking open shots when he's looking to pass - always fun to watch the decision play out across his face), and great contributions from a couple of key players (Cuttino, Thomas).
One more and we're back in this thing! Go Kings!Good post, I agree.

[Rowdyone]

I'm probably as critical of Peja as anyone on this board but last night I did appreciate his hustle for the most part. One play that illustrates this is late in the game he shot (and missed) a three on the right deep wing, say Lewis sprint the other way and immediately got back in time to breakup the long pass and off of Lewis' hands for a turnover. Couple that with his being +3 in points against his man is at least a moral victory!! I guess it all comes down to expectations...lately I haven't expected much from him and, unfortunately, haven't been disappointed. But his hustle last night was appreciated.

[Team Dime]

Peja gets a B- at least. Who knew that he would turn out to be a good defender on a crappy defensive team? Lewis did not get enough spacing to even get a proper shot off. As far as offense goes, he was sub par. But then again the Kings set a grand total of 4 screens, not counting the half-assed ones, for Peja and he nailed 2 of those shots. It looked like the Kings were content to use him to spread the floor and the rest of the guys stepped up and made the open shots. The bottom line is without Peja's defense, we would not have won this game.

Of course, the Arco crowd get an A+. The fans willed the team to the win. :)

That's an outright lie! It's more like Lewis missed alot of shots and faced more double teams. The guy was just off just like Mike Bibby was in game 1.

[Double E]

Like I said all along Pedja's defense is underrated and undervalued. The thing that pisses me off is his lack of aggression. We need him to nut up period. Demand the ball once in your life Pedja do not be content just to watch other people shoot, demand the fricken ball.:mad:I like this perspective on Peja's game, very fair.

[6th]

That's an outright lie! It's more like Lewis missed alot of shots and faced more double teams. The guy was just off just like Mike Bibby was in game 1.

Easy, TD. It is called an opinion. Opinions are not lies. They just are what they are. It is okay to disagree, but...........whoa!!

[Alacron]

I'd bump Peja up to at least a C... he was on their second best player, and he shut him down. Last night we needed Peja's defense more than his scoring, and he gave us that. So he only had 12 points? We scored 116, we didn't need any more! Peja is really vital to us against the Sonics because he's the only guy on the roster Lewis can't easily shoot over, back down, or beat off the dribble. I'd rather have him using most of his energy on defense, same goes for Mobley on Allen.

And if anyone knows why Tag is wasting away on the bench, please don't keep me in suspense any longer, I am getting ulcers every time I see a Corliss-Peja-Cat frontline.

Awesome game.
~~

[Team Dime]

I'm just sick of people making excuses for Peja. I think it's more like the Kings were pretty lucky to win with Peja being almost invisible on offense. The team really needed him to have a big night, yet he disappeared once again. Peja's best asset will always be his scoring, his ability to go for 30+, to make nice backdoor cuts, to hit dagger three pointers. We need him to be able to do it. It's mind boggling how he can do it in the regular season, actually averaging 25 a game and being an MVP candidate, but continue be horribly inconsistent in the playoffs. Peja has to want it more, has to get his head on straight. I mean even blind Peja supporters like Voison are writing articles saying that he needs to play better.


The bottom line is Peja laid on egg on offense in the biggest game of the year. His defense was ok, nothing spectacular. Lewis was struggling making open shots like he has the whole series. Peja didn't show up in games 2 or 3 and I don't think anyone knows for sure if we can count on him for the rest of the playoffs. It's an unknown commidity that simply is good enough right now.

[quick dog]

Peja did a great job last night despite his lack of scoring. There were not many assists, and he nevr took the ball down-court. The fact is, that between Bibby, Bobby, Mobley, and Brad, Peja had relatively few touches. The guards were throwing it up with gay abandon. There were a number of times that Peja was just standing there wide-open on the wing as Bibby or Mobley took it to the basket or fired-up deep jumpers. Peja completely neutered Lewis, as Lewis neutered Peja. We won.

I'm raising Peja's grade from "B-" to a solid "B".

[Team Dime]

Peja did a great job last night despite his lack of scoring. There were not many assists, and he nevr took the ball down-court. The fact is, that between Bibby, Bobby, Mobley, and Brad, Peja had relatively few touches. The guards were throwing it up with gay abandon. There were a number of times that Peja was just standing there wide-open on the wing as Bibby or Mobley took it to the basket or fired-up deep jumpers. Peja completely neutered Lewis, as Lewis neutered Peja. We won.

I'm raising Peja's grade from "B-" to a solid "B".

We'll see what kind of grade Peja deserves after the playoffs are over.

[SIR HENRY 8]

We are so used to Peja being a scorer....and for years, not so hot on defense. Actually, I was rather proud of Peja last night. His offense was clearly off. So, most of the time he kept his defender away from the action and didn't try to do too much on that end since others were obviously coming through. C'mon, we scored 116 pts with Peja only having 12. We obviously didn't need him much on that end of the court.

About Defense....Peja has earned the right to be called a pretty decent defender. He has worked hard on that part of his game and it shows. To hold Lewis to 9 pts was a battle. And, it was not just last night. Lewis is being held way under average for the series.

Maybe it is time to start grading Peja with a different eye. He was a tremendous asset last night....not at all times, but he was definitely a useful part of this win. I give him a B-I thought the same about Peja,offence not to good ,defence,he took Lewis out of game,and that is a big contribution,IMO.

[Venom]

I want to clarify my earlier post about Peja's defense, because some people are trying to make him into a first team All-NBA defender. Peja's defense is horrible. He has no clue on defense, and is absolutely lost in a team scheme. HOWEVER, if there is a guy like Lewis out there, who won't post up, and is not looking to create for teammates, then Adelman can tell Peja to faceguard him all night and deny the ball. But that is the only contribution Peja can make on defense. So, good effort by him, probably deserves a C, C-. But HUGE props to Adelman for taking the advantage of the one defensive skill that Peja does have, allowing the rest of the D to focus on other areas.

[BigWaxer]

I thought the same about Peja,offence not to good ,defence,he took Lewis out of game,and that is a big contribution,IMO.

I agree with that but on the flip side we let JJ take up the slack on their offense.

[Bricklayer]

This is what its come to -- Peja Stojakovic 12pts 3rebs 0ast 0stl 0blk 30% shooting. Grade: B. Ha!!


What is that? An exception player? Maybe not even that. Peja has stayed in front of Lewis, meanwhile he has ZERO steals and 1 block for the ENTIRE series. Last night how many shots of Lewis's did he actually alter? 2? 3? Maybe. The rest of the time he was just there. Did he ever take the ball away from him? No. Its better defense than Biobby pays, but this myth of the stopper is ridiculous. Peja is playing stopper defense on Lewis about as much as Lewis is playing stopper defense on Peja, which is to say he's not.


I've long ago gave up grading Peja on a superstar or even potential superstar scale. The constant string of C's, D's and F's would get old. But this is still theoretically a STAR player. Or not maybe. Look at the line above. "B" my ***. I wonder at the point that becomes his "B" exactly what it would take for him to get less than a "C"? 8pts 1 reb on 3-12 -- C+. Maybe 5pts 0rebs on 1-15 is a C-. :rolleyes:

Now its possible that Peja's miserable play every postseason has finally worn people down so far that they are going to grade him on the Fred Hoiberg scale. Its possible. Lower expectations far enough and you can be a relative hero every night. But I think its far mroe likely that Kings fans are desperate enough to make a hero out of their guy that it doesn't matter how small the accomplshment, they will seize upon it. So what o you think -- think Sonics fans are singing the praises of Rashard right now for bring his B (or maybe in his case B-) game last night?

[6th]

B- it shall remain for me, Brickie. Besides, you know I grade a whole lot easier than you do. Hell, puttin on the jersey gets you a C in my class. :p

[VF21]

Its better defense than Biobby pays...

Is that Bibby or Bobby or a new combination name to refer to BOTH #10 and #24?

[VF21]

Hell, puttin on the jersey gets you a C in my class. :p

They do have to have it right side out, though, yes?

And the team name has to be on the front?

;)

[6th]

They do have to have it right side out, though, yes?

And the team name has to be on the front?

;)

Bwahahahahaha!!! Yes, the jersey must be worn "correctly" to get the C. ;)

[bozzwell]

This is what its come to -- Peja Stojakovic 12pts 3rebs 0ast 0stl 0blk 30% shooting. Grade: B. Ha!!
....

Now its possible that Peja's miserable play every postseason has finally worn people down so far that they are going to grade him on the Fred Hoiberg scale.

Brick was the first to invoke the name of Fred Hoiberg in Pedja "argument". I forgot, does that mean that Brick wins the argumend or does it mean that the whole universe and all existence will sieze to be? :)

While, we're waiting for the answer, I'd like to chime in. Not just because I have a soft spot for Fred (he looks like an indentical twin of my younger brother). I've been familiar with Mayor's game since he was a Bull. Now, here is a guy who (with Bulls) made less salary then some IT contractors I worked with (think late 90's, Y2K "issue"). Yet, he is a perfect professional and what some of us would call "hi character". Coming of the bench and playing limited minutes he has awesome efficiency (about the best in NBA) and he was the same way back when he played with some truly awfull Bulls teams (KG cannot take any credit for Mayors "improvements" - he waas always like that). However, his efficiency and overall contribution would lessen as his minutes would increase with Bulls. Just that kind of player, not a starter but a very, very usefull player coming off of the bench.

Back to Pedja. If you come to accept that Pedja's A game is anything in the range of his career stats (as a starter), that's fine. What are we talking: 20/5/1.5? Something like that. You don't except him to take over games, you don't excpect him to hustle for 10+ rebounds, you don't expect him to come up with double team busting laser-beam passes - you just want him to do his share. Then it is D+ for last nights game, based on stats. Based on intangibles, especially disciplined defence (where he clearly showed committment) and the fact that he did run himself ragged, you can adjust grade upward for half a grade to C or C-. For B, I need to see some assists and either better percentage or few more points.

[Bricklayer]

Brick was the first to invoke the name of Fred Hoiberg in Pedja "argument". I forgot, does that mean that Brick wins the argumend or does it mean that the whole universe and all existence will sieze to be? :)



A couple of years back I had a computer basketball sim (coaching/GM oriented rather than silly arcade stuff) and I chose to take over the Chicago Bulls (when Fred was still with them) because they were the worst team in the league and it would be the biggest challenge. Well, somebody got hurt, forgot who (think it was that chubby little PG out of UConn), but whoever it was left me a choice to etiher start A.J. Guyton at the PG, or to get radical and go with my best shooter. So Fred Hoiberg starting PG it was! :) (I soon realized that there was something slightly askew in their logarithms when Fred went on to average 2.5stls a game that year (I played him about 38mpg) and make First Team All-NBA defense. :D

[bozzwell]

A couple of years back I had a computer basketball sim (coaching/GM oriented rather than silly arcade stuff) and I chose to take over the Chicago Bulls (when Fred was still with them) because they were the worst team in the league and it would be the biggest challenge. Well, somebody got hurt, forgot who (think it was that chubby little PG out of UConn), but whoever it was left me a choice to etiher start A.J. Guyton at the PG, or to get radical and go with my best shooter. So Fred Hoiberg starting PG it was! :) (I soon realized that there was something slightly askew in their logarithms when Fred went on to average 2.5stls a game that year (I played him about 38mpg) and make First Team All-NBA defense. :D

Don't blame the sim. Bulls were coached by Tim Floyd at the time. It is entirely possible that Fred had it in him, but Floyd experince has drained him of mojo for the rest of his life. ;)

[Bricklayer]

Don't blame the sim. Bulls were coached by Tim Floyd at the time. It is entirely possible that Fred had it in him, but Floyd experince has drained him of mojo for the rest of his life. ;)
That's a LOT of mojo to have drained -- the Mayor should sue. ;)

[AleksandarN]

A couple of years back I had a computer basketball sim (coaching/GM oriented rather than silly arcade stuff) and I chose to take over the Chicago Bulls (when Fred was still with them) because they were the worst team in the league and it would be the biggest challenge. Well, somebody got hurt, forgot who (think it was that chubby little PG out of UConn), but whoever it was left me a choice to etiher start A.J. Guyton at the PG, or to get radical and go with my best shooter. So Fred Hoiberg starting PG it was! :) (I soon realized that there was something slightly askew in their logarithms when Fred went on to average 2.5stls a game that year (I played him about 38mpg) and make First Team All-NBA defense. :D

By chance was the game called


http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2002/pc/spo/seasonticketbasketball/stb_box.jpg

[Padrino]

Back to Pedja. If you come to accept that Pedja's A game is anything in the range of his career stats (as a starter), that's fine. What are we talking: 20/5/1.5? Something like that. You don't except him to take over games, you don't excpect him to hustle for 10+ rebounds, you don't expect him to come up with double team busting laser-beam passes - you just want him to do his share. Then it is D+ for last nights game, based on stats. Based on intangibles, especially disciplined defence (where he clearly showed committment) and the fact that he did run himself ragged, you can adjust grade upward for half a grade to C or C-. For B, I need to see some assists and either better percentage or few more points.

this is a very reasonable assessment. i would agree with brick, and give peja the D+...but i agree with you about the way peja should be graded. i am of the opinion, tho, that peja didnt "shut down" rashard lewis. rashard lewis, like peja, shut himself down. frustrated by a little physical defense, both players took themselves out of the game entirely. both were, what, 2-10? 20 shots between two (theoretical) all stars? at times, it seemed neither wanted the ball. neither is confident in their game right now. as far as grading is concerned, had we lost, could anybody honestly give peja any less than a D+? all it is is a scale by which we measure each individual kings' performance, but i think brick is usually very accurate, and quite thorough, in his assessments. basically, if we're gonna go to the trouble of "grading" the kings, why should we "grade easy?" it serves no purpose if we're not objective...and NO player should be subject to exception.

[BigWaxer]

I've long ago gave up grading Peja on a superstar or even potential superstar scale.

I know this wasn't the point of your thread but I gotta get you on it...
From a past thread a few days ago Brick and you know you deserve this reply. "Superstar is semantics"


If we can get a superstar/elite player in the off season and also keep Peja then I think we will be in a lot better shape. Peja as a #2 or #3 option is the ticket IMO.


Right now people are looking for him to be the answer and that will not win us a ring.

[Rockmeister]

That was THE BEST game I have ever been to at Arco ... and I've been to a few playoffs games there.

The energy ... the emotion ... the intensity ... the focus .... now remember, I'm talking about the fans ... it was GREAT !!!!

I barely have my voice .... musta yelled DEFENSE at least a several hundred times.

It got so loud, I could not hear my daughter yellin' and screamin' right at me and she was sitting right next to me ... I WANTED MORE !!!!

ARCO gets an A+
I hope the Arco crowd will be just as LOUD on Sunday because I will be there at the game!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[kennadog]

I know this wasn't the point of your thread but I gotta get you on it...
From a past thread a few days ago Brick and you know you deserve this reply. Superstars are just semantics... :) J/K I am just being a Smart A from a previous post I made this week...

If we can get a superstar/elite player in the off season and also keep Peja then I think we will be in a lot better shape. Peja as a #2 or #3 option is the ticket IMO.

Right now people are looking for him to be the answer and that will not win us a ring.

Totally agree.

[kennadog]

I hope the Arco crowd will be just as LOUD on Sunday because I will be there at the game!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I hope so too Rock. If it is it will be an awesome night for you, just like Friday was for me.:D

[Bricklayer]

By chance was the game called


http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2002/pc/spo/seasonticketbasketball/stb_box.jpg

Hmm...don't think so. Any good? I haven't had one in a few years, but I'd love to find a good front office NBA sim -- not really very interested in just clicking fast and causing Brad Miller ot do a quintuple somersault dunk. Prefer to play Petrie against a good A.I. :)

[Bricklayer]

I know this wasn't the point of your thread but I gotta get you on it...
From a past thread a few days ago Brick and you know you deserve this reply. "Superstar is semantics"


If we can get a superstar/elite player in the off season and also keep Peja then I think we will be in a lot better shape. Peja as a #2 or #3 option is the ticket IMO.


Right now people are looking for him to be the answer and that will not win us a ring.

Well here's the thing, and the thing he still isn't proving now -- I'm not even sure you want him as your #2 option on a championship team. EVERY single playoffs he goes south. That's the last player you want to have on your team if you're trying to win a title rather than just 55+ in the regular season. Maybe a #3 behind two true #1 superstuds (he would be beautiful in Miami), but if you are in any way depending on him to score for you to be successful in the playoffs, his entire history shouts "you're in trouble".

By all rights this should have been the playoffs where he shook that career long pattern. And this should have been the series -- I was expecting fool's gold to a certain degree. The Sonics have no stoppers at SF, there is nothing stopping Peja but Peja. And here he is 15ppg 37% shooting yet again. You just can't have that from one of your main guns on a team with any shot at a title. (and no I don't think we had any shot this year anyway, so Peja is not costing us a title or anything, but if were to build a true contending team with him in a position where we're susposed to depend on him -- its the shakiest of all possible foundations, and quite frankly the rest of the team deserves better than to be saddled with that.)

[AleksandarN]

Hmm...don't think so. Any good? I haven't had one in a few years, but I'd love to find a good front office NBA sim -- not really very interested in just clicking fast and causing Brad Miller ot do a quintuple somersault dunk. Prefer to play Petrie against a good A.I. :)

It is a not a bad game. You might find it somewhere they stoped making it though. I love manager games I have Baseball Mogul(very good) and World Soccer Manager 2005(used to be called Championship Manager it the best Manager game out there)

[Bricklayer]

It is a not a bad game. You might find it somewhere they stoped making it though. I love manager games I have Baseball Mogul(very good) and World Soccer Manager 2005(used to be called Championship Manager it the best Manager game out there)

Ever tried OOTP (baseball sim)? Quite good independent product.

[AleksandarN]

Ever tried OOTP (baseball sim)? Quite good independent product.

No but I heard it is pretty good though. Do you know what the difference is between Mogul and OOTP?

[Bricklayer]

No but I heard it is pretty good though. Do you know what the difference is between Mogul and OOTP?

I've never tried Mogul, so can't help there. OOTP is quite remarkable for its GM mode (all the way down to simming all three levels of minors with full rosters, hiring coaches, minor league mangers, scouts, pretty much a full financial mode etc.), but as an indie project (although going progressively corporate the last few years) was always weaker for in game play. All the tactical stuff, just weak graphical support. But keeps on getting better every year.

[AleksandarN]

I've never tried Mogul, so can't help there. OOTP is quite remarkable for its GM mode (all the way down to simming all three levels of minors with full rosters, hiring coaches, minor league mangers, scouts, pretty much a full financial mode etc.), but as an indie project (although going progressively corporate the last few years) was always weaker for in game play. All the tactical stuff, just weak graphical support. But keeps on getting better every year.

Well I might give it a go. You should try Basball Mogul it is pure sim game. The only thing is that it does not have all of the features that OOTP has but by the sounds of your discription has better tatics. It is also pretty small time company aswell.

http://www.sportsmogul.com/baseballcd/

[funsc]

I hope to see similar grades next game

[chelle]

I hope to see some of the same grades, but I want some to be higher. I'm greedy that way!!

[Venom]

Well here's the thing, and the thing he still isn't proving now -- I'm not even sure you want him as your #2 option on a championship team. EVERY single playoffs he goes south. That's the last player you want to have on your team if you're trying to win a title rather than just 55+ in the regular season. Maybe a #3 behind two true #1 superstuds (he would be beautiful in Miami), but if you are in any way depending on him to score for you to be successful in the playoffs, his entire history shouts "you're in trouble".

By all rights this should have been the playoffs where he shook that career long pattern. And this should have been the series -- I was expecting fool's gold to a certain degree. The Sonics have no stoppers at SF, there is nothing stopping Peja but Peja. And here he is 15ppg 37% shooting yet again. You just can't have that from one of your main guns on a team with any shot at a title. (and no I don't think we had any shot this year anyway, so Peja is not costing us a title or anything, but if were to build a true contending team with him in a position where we're susposed to depend on him -- its the shakiest of all possible foundations, and quite frankly the rest of the team deserves better than to be saddled with that.)

Which is why I think he gets moved this offseason to a team with talent that thinks it needs one more scorer/shooter. Petrie really should have moved Peja a couple years ago after Webber had the injury. He was a HOT commodity then. I have no idea what Peja's value would be now. It could be that Artest would be the best offer, and he's severely damaged goods.

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I agree with the grades, mostly. I might be tempted to bump Miller a half-grade higher, just for those teeth-rattling picks he set on Ridnour; those were a thing of beauty!

I might even lower Stojakovic's grade by a half, just because I think that his so-called defense on Lewis is counterfeit.

[GoGoGadget]

Is that Bibby or Bobby or a new combination name to refer to BOTH #10 and #24?

Genetic experiment gone wrong -- DNA samples were used to create the bastard son of Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson, "Biobby."

They keep "him" in a little jar behind Arco.

I've seen it.

[Alacron]

I might even lower Stojakovic's grade by a half, just because I think that his so-called defense on Lewis is counterfeit.

From watching the game, that's not the impression I got. Lewis may be off his game, but Peja is not making it easy for him. It's not a coincidence that the guy Peja's guarding usually has a bad night. He's just a smart defender who doesn't go for fakes, stays in front of his man, and always puts a hand in his face.

We didn't need too much of Peja on offense last night, fortunately. The problem is that when we do need him, we can never count on him to step up. But I think it's only fair to judge Peja one game at a time, and last game he did enough to help us to the win.

I see it as a two-part grade, half for offense, half for defense. I give him a A- for defense, making their #2 option a non-factor and outrebounding him 3-2, and a D- for offense, 12 points on 11 shots, 0 assists. I'd let him have a C overall.
~~

[Alacron]

Genetic experiment gone wrong -- DNA samples were used to create the bastard son of Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson, "Biobby."

They keep "him" in a little jar behind Arco.

I've seen it.

Let me guess... his quavering voice croaked, "kill me."

I won't believe it until I see a credibly Photoshopped picture of it.
~~

[bozzwell]

I agree with the grades, mostly. I might be tempted to bump Miller a half-grade higher, just for those teeth-rattling picks he set on Ridnour; those were a thing of beauty!

I might even lower Stojakovic's grade by a half, just because I think that his so-called defense on Lewis is counterfeit.

It really doesn't matter whether he stopped Lewis or Lewis was not a gamer to beging with. The point is that Pedja D-ed up on Lewis whole night long (and couple of brief assignements on Allen). As much as you cannot say that Pedja played _great_ D on Lewis because Lewis might not be that good to beging with, you cannot dismiss Pedja's D just because Lewis might not be that good to begin with. Pedjas still hustled up D on him.

[Venom]

From watching the game, that's not the impression I got. Lewis may be off his game, but Peja is not making it easy for him. It's not a coincidence that the guy Peja's guarding usually has a bad night. He's just a smart defender who doesn't go for fakes, stays in front of his man, and always puts a hand in his face.


~~

OK, seriously guys. . .he is playing Lewis because Ray would demolish him and Ridnour wouldn't even blink going past him, while any big man Seattle has would crush him inside. Lewis is hampered by injury. The reason the guy that Peja guards "usually" has a bad night is because he always guards the other team's worst player. I started off trying to give the guy some kudos, but alot of you people are getting ridiculous. Peja's a smart defender? How many steals does he average? How many rebounds does he get? He is a HORRIBLE defender. He doesn't go for fakes because he couldn't block Earl Boykins. But a guy like Lewis will make him look good because he is almost as soft as Peja himself, and all Peja has to do is faceguard him all night. If Lewis' shot is off, then Peja looks like a good defender. If Lewis is hitting, Peja is exposed, and now you have to double to get the ball out of Lewis' hands, creating problems elsewhere in the team scheme. Good on Peja for hustling around, but ya'll need to knock this demogoguery off. Really.

[Bricklayer]

He is a HORRIBLE defender.

As much as I think he wasn't the reason Lewis was so bad Friday, I can't go THAT far, or close to it. He's a bad help defender, rotates softly, refuses to block shots or stick his nose in there. But his man to man defense is actually pretty good. He's pays attention, stays in front of his man, is pretty saavy over there, rarely makes bad mistakes, and when properly inspired can even get up on them and harass them. He's no stopper, and if somebody has a 10pt game the odds of it being because of Peja are pretty low. But on the other hand, except for the truly great players just out of his (or most everyone's) league, I think its pretty hard to have a huge game against him unless you're just ridiculously hot. He's always going to be there, isn't going to give you too many easy ones, will have his hand up in your face (mitigated somewhat by the extreme unliklihood he's going to block it, but still distracting). He shows some pride on that end of the floor and does well enough I normally don't worry about him.

Standing on a dunghill and actually crowing about his defense is probably good for a few laughs anywhere but Kingsville, but I don't think he has much to be ashamed of on that side (unless you are adding reboudning/hustle in as defense). Ironically I actually worry less about his defense on a night to night basis than I do any other part of his game.

[Pacboy]

It really doesn't matter whether he stopped Lewis or Lewis was not a gamer to beging with. The point is that Pedja D-ed up on Lewis whole night long (and couple of brief assignements on Allen). As much as you cannot say that Pedja played _great_ D on Lewis because Lewis might not be that good to beging with, you cannot dismiss Pedja's D just because Lewis might not be that good to begin with. Pedjas still hustled up D on him.

I just read on the Seatle's time that Lewis is bothered by tendinitis the last few games also. So i don tknow whether it's his D or it's Lewis's struggle

[iheartBrad]

solid grades Brick...I'm obviously very late to this thread but who cares... :)

Couple of things I just want to say...#1 I figured people would be kinda hard on Darius cuz he did pick up the 5 fouls in 12 mins...but for me IMO I thought at least 3 of his 5 fouls were good fouls...hard "this is the playoffs" fouls...fouls that prevented an easy basket by the Sonics...and he didn't allow any And1's which is he pretty famous for on the Kings....so he didn't do much out there and I agree he deserved the grade he got but I didn't really see his fouls as being that bad...

As for RA again I knew there would be mention of that small ball lineup he had in there...which I agree was pretty nauseating when I saw it on the court...BUT I don't think it really killed us and he didn't stick with it for that long...so I'm willing to look past it for this or that game 3...

The Arco Crowd was just beautiful every single one of them...they really did their jobs on Friday night and I agree that the game was basically won in the first with the burst of energy that both the players and the crowd provided...I was pretty insulted when Mike Terrico commented about how ARCO is similar to the Key when it came to being a "loud house" ...I was fine with the comparison to the Packers fans...cuz I really agree with that and Packers fans are pretty damn loud and loyal if ya ask me...but you absolutely had to compare ARCO arena and the fans presence to another team in the league it definetly WOULD NOT have been the Sonics and Key Arena...I really think ARCO is in a league of its own..but if I had to compare...those Nuggets fans in Denver pretty damn crunk if ya ask me...and that would be pretty much the only arena simlarity I'd be interested in hearing about...

GO KINGS!!

[Venom]

He's a bad help defender, rotates softly, refuses to block shots or stick his nose in there.

Standing on a dunghill and actually crowing about his defense is probably good for a few laughs anywhere but Kingsville, but I don't think he has much to be ashamed of on that side (unless you are adding reboudning/hustle in as defense).


The top line is exactly why he is a bad defender. You cannot incorporate him into a team concept, because he does not grasp team defensive principles. That is man-to-man defense. Locking in on your man for 48 minutes is not man-to-man. You need to be able to help, rotate, bring the double, crash boards, box out, dive into the key to shut down penetration. And all 5 players on the floor need to be able to do that. That's real man-to-man defense, like what the Pistons play. Even Rip gets after it. Peja has far and away the easiest assignment. All he has to do is stay with Lewis, the Sonics least mobile (and slightly hampered) SG/SF. He does not have to worry about anything else. I don't think people realize how easy his job is. I know you do Brick, and I used a bit of hyperbole in my previous post, but every other King on the floor has MUCH more defensive responsiblity than Peja. I give the guy credit for hustling, but the way Rick uses him is further evidence of how little he grasps on the defensive end.

[Zyphen]

The way I look at defense on the Kings grade-wise is, if they can keep their man in front of them most of the time, then it won't damage their final score. Unfortunately that's not the case for at least some Kings players any given night. Therefore, they usually up their grade by putting out a great offensive performance or grabbing rebounds (though I guess you could argue defensive rebounds could be part of the defense score, but I just go with rebounds as its own category). You can still get an A if you go off for 30 and 10 dimes but stink it up on the other end (example).

Now, going above and beyond this modicum of defense is a rare occasion. It would have to be pretty damn good to get whole letter grade increases while other categories suffer. Also, there's always the idea of "fluke" games where you're not sure if it's the player or his opponent that's causing the misses. Because if it's really the Kings player's defense, then why hasn't it shown up more consistently all year? The answer is because we have no defensive stoppers on our team and anything extra they put out is gravy. But I'm pretty skeptical of any one night's performance and the defense would have to be pretty damn OBVIOUS for me to give any significant credit. I assume Brick and some others think along the same lines.

I expect Kings players to fill their job description. If we brought in a defensive stopper and he shuts down his man, holding them 3-5% below their season average, whoever they are. Then that becomes who he is. I won't second guess his defensive performances because chances are, it's probably him having the impact, not his opponent having a bad game. I'd be very comfortable having much of his grade being decided by his defensive impact (a la' Bruce Bowen or Big Ben).

I expect offensive minded players to perform offensively. What a concept, huh? If they want to add defense to their game, then great. Let's see it for 82 games next season as well. I don't understand why it should excuse them on the other end of the floor though. The coach isn't telling them to enter the game and shut down someone at the expense of offense. I'd bet that given a choice, a coach would want a player to do what he should be doing (with the assumption that they do it well).

I'll save the A+ for when Peja plays solid defense and gets 25 on 50% shooting. I'll also want at least 6 boards and a presence (not even a good one) in the 4th quarter. If Peja starts playing stopper defense, then we'll have to reevaluate his scale. I'm not holding my breath, though.

[quick dog]

Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic have very similar regular-season and playoff statistics. However, Peja's shooting numbers are better. Rashard was an Allstar this year. Peja was not. Who should win this match-up?


Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 25% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.


Am I to understand that Peja's defense sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his recent injuries? What about Peja's recent injury? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.


Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. Again, his 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg in the playoffs.


Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the 2005 playoffs. He has no steals, and only one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.

If everyone on the Kings squad had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.

[iheartBrad]

^I would agree with that last part qd

[Bricklayer]

Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic have very similar regular-season and playoff statistics. However, Peja's shooting numbers are better. Rashard was an Allstar this year. Peja was not. Who should win this match-up

Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 30% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.

Am I to understand that Peja sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his injuries? What about Peja's injuries? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.

Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. His 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg.

Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the playoffs. He has no steals, and one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these games because of Peja.

If everyone on the Kings had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.

Luke Ridnour couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in Games 1 & 2, do you think it was because of Mike Bibby's defense? Just because "a" exists, and "b" exists does not mean that a is necessarily the proximate cause of b in the absence of tangible evidence.

I have not seen Peja do anything to cause Lewis is average 13ppg or grab 2.3rebs a game. Perhaps Lewis is hurt. Perhaps Lewis suffers from Pejaitis in the playoffs. But something is up far beyond Peja's defense on him (which has been solid, but nothing remotely enough to cause an All Star to play like a scrub). And vice versa by the way -- I've mentioned hat Lewis isn't doing enough to get credit for totally shutting Peja down either. Peja is shutting down Peja. Peja may be playing lockdown defense on a SF this year, but its not Seattle's SF.

[Alacron]

OK, seriously guys. . .he is playing Lewis because Ray would demolish him and Ridnour wouldn't even blink going past him, while any big man Seattle has would crush him inside.

Are you seriously suggesting that a 6'10" forward should be able to keep a point guard from blowing by him? The reason Peja is playing Lewis is because ::drum roll: they play the same position! And if Peja were to play Allen, I guarantee he'd make a better showing against him than Mobley would do against Lewis.
BTW, if you hadn't noticed, Brad Miller and Brian Skinner have been getting crushed inside by 7'1" 300-lb. James so of course Peja would get crushed as well.

The reason the guy that Peja guards "usually" has a bad night is because he always guards the other team's worst player.

Not really worth responding to, but in case you forgot, Lewis is a guy who has scored 50 in a game, he's a current All-Star, and Seattle's #2 option on offense.

Some of this is getting as ridiculous as the Webber-hating was.
~~

[bozzwell]

Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic have very similar regular-season and playoff statistics. However, Peja's shooting numbers are better. Rashard was an Allstar this year. Peja was not. Who should win this match-up?


Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 25% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.


Am I to understand that Peja's defense sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his recent injuries? What about Peja's recent injury? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.


Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. Again, his 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg in the playoffs.


Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the 2005 playoffs. He has no steals, and only one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.

If everyone on the Kings squad had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.

Interesting interpretation and not at all unreasonable, except that Pedja himslef probably thinks of himself as a much, much better player then Lewis. So do you and so do I and so does most of Kingsfans.com. And that's why most posters in this thread are either reluctant to revise Pedja's grade on bases of his D or in my case would go only half a grade up.

[VF21]

Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.

I do not and cannot agree. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in the first three games, but I'm in no way convinced he'd do much better if Mo Evans was guarding him all night.

[quick dog]

Interesting interpretation and not at all unreasonable, except that Pedja himslef probably thinks of himself as a much, much better player then Lewis. So do you and so do I and so does most of Kingsfans.com. And that's why most posters in this thread are either reluctant to revise Pedja's grade on bases of his D or in my case would go only half a grade up.

I suspect that most people think Rashard Lewis is better than Peja Stojakovic this year.

[iheartBrad]

I think Rashard is having a bad series all by his lonesome...

[Stojakovic]

I do not and cannot agree. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in the first three games, but I'm in no way convinced he'd do much better if Mo Evans was guarding him all night.

Rashard Lewis on Mo Evans in the post would be a disaster. Mo is a good defender, but he would get owned by Lewis if he was isolated 1 on 1.

[iheartBrad]

^^RA said he experimented with that matchup during the regular season and that DID NOT WORK hehehehehe

[bozzwell]

I suspect that most people think Rashard Lewis is better than Peja Stojakovic this year.

That's right - if you're not a monarchist. And don't I know it: This is the first year that I didn't win Fantasy NBA office league at work. I have almost indentical team every year and while Shaq missing games at the end of the season has hurt me I lost in categoris that I usually lock down for the whole year: FG%, 3pts, 3FG%. My small forward had a down year (guess who) and the eventual winner had R. Lewis at SF. I think that Lewis is in his contract year, but looking at his body of work in NBA and comparing it to Pedja, I think that it is reasonable to assume that Pedja would be more of Lewis-killer then vice versa. Not to mention play-off experience where Lewis is a distant second.

[Bricklayer]

I suspect that most people think Rashard Lewis is better than Peja Stojakovic this year.

Rashard is having the better year. But is he better? Eh, not realy. If he can maintain this level I think they are roughly equal talents at this point. Peja probably a little more prolific, Lewis more versatile with his post game, a little shotblocking, a bit more rebounding etc..

[bozzwell]

Rashard Lewis on Mo Evans in the post would be a disaster. Mo is a good defender, but he would get owned by Lewis if he was isolated 1 on 1.

Lewis can post-up? ;)

[Bartking]

Maybe it doesn't look as serious on TV, but when Rashard is trying to set up on the low block against Peja, there is a lot of banging and shoving. And both players giving a lot of effort.

[mr. moustache]

Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic have very similar regular-season and playoff statistics. However, Peja's shooting numbers are better. Rashard was an Allstar this year. Peja was not. Who should win this match-up?


Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 25% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.


Am I to understand that Peja's defense sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his recent injuries? What about Peja's recent injury? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.


Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. Again, his 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg in the playoffs.


Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the 2005 playoffs. He has no steals, and only one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.

If everyone on the Kings squad had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.

Who would have thunk it. Both Peja and Rashard playing savant-like defense. Let's face the truth. Both guys are trying..kind of.. and both are sucking to high heaven.

[VF21]

Rashard Lewis on Mo Evans in the post would be a disaster. Mo is a good defender, but he would get owned by Lewis if he was isolated 1 on 1.

Oops. I forgot a cardinal rule about message boards: Hyperbole and subtle nuances of sarcasm are totally lost without proper use of emoticons.

;)

[Stojakovic]

Oops. I forgot a cardinal rule about message boards: Hyperbole and subtle nuances of sarcasm are totally lost without proper use of emoticons.

;)

Ooops ;)

[PixelPusher]

Oops. I forgot a cardinal rule about message boards: Hyperbole and subtle nuances of sarcasm are totally lost without proper use of emoticons.

;)

hyperbole and sarcasm? on a message board?:D ;) :rolleyes:

[Team Dime]

Rashard Lewis and Peja Stojakovic have very similar regular-season and playoff statistics. However, Peja's shooting numbers are better. Rashard was an Allstar this year. Peja was not. Who should win this match-up?


Peja has guarded Lewis throughout the first three games, and Lewis' shooting and scoring statistics dropped by about 25% from the regular 2004-2005 season to the playoffs.


Am I to understand that Peja's defense sucks, and that Lewis is not shooting lights-out because of his recent injuries? What about Peja's recent injury? No pun intended, but that's a lame line of reasoning.


Lewis' FG% dropped from 40.2% to 37.1% in the 2005 playoffs. Again, his 3pt% also declined from 40.0% to 33.3%. His scoring totals went from 20.5 ppg to 13.0 ppg in the playoffs.


Peja has scored an average of 15.0 ppg, with 6.0 rpg in the 2005 playoffs. He has no steals, and only one block. His counter-part has averaged 13.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, and 1.3 apg. Rashard Lewis has not been a big factor in these three games, mostly because of Peja.

If everyone on the Kings squad had equaled, or bettered, their opponent's performances like Peja has done in this playoff series, then the Kings would be up three to zero.

Just wondering when the excuses for Peja stop. The guy isn't showing up in the playoffs once again, it's his own fault. I think it would do us all better to admit it and stop feeling sorry for him.

[SIR HENRY 8]

I agree with that but on the flip side we let JJ take up the slack on their offense.yeah we need to shut that down a little,and i think we should be playing the Miller/Tag combo alot more,whats up with not playing Tag ?as far as Peja,a great defender,i don't think hes great but Lewis being shut down for 3 games is more than a coincidence.IMO

[kennadog]

Just wondering when the excuses for Peja stop. The guy isn't showing up in the playoffs once again, it's his own fault. I think it would do us all better to admit it and stop feeling sorry for him.

Allright, I think exaggeration either way doesn't help. Peja never shows up in the playoffs and Bibby is a playoff stud. I'm going to bring up a past playoff year, 2003, and before anybody says it, no it doesn't mean beans about this playoff series. I just don't like "never".

Peja 2003 playoff avg:

23.1 PTS
48% FG
85% FT (this surprised me)
46% 3-PT
6.9 RB
2.5 Assists

Bibby:

12.7 PTS
42% FG
79% FT
28% 3-PT
2.6 RB
5 Assists

I'd say Peja's numbers look like he "showed up" and Bibby had a pretty miserable PO, the supposed playoff stud (Bibby even said so). This isn't posted to bash Bibby or rave about Peja. But let's not talk like Peja has always sucked in the playoffs.

[Bartking]

Q-Dog and K-Dog...quit bringing facts up! Now grab your torches and LET'S GO GET PEJA!!!!!!

[kennadog]

Q-Dog and K-Dog...quit bringing facts up! Now grab your torches and LET'S GO GET PEJA!!!!!!

:D Sorry, it is sort of a bad habit.

[bozzwell]

Allright, I think exaggeration either way doesn't help. Peja never shows up in the playoffs and Bibby is a playoff stud. I'm going to bring up a past playoff year, 2003, and before anybody says it, no it doesn't mean beans about this playoff series. I just don't like "never".

Peja 2003 playoff avg:

23.1 PTS
48% FG
85% FT (this surprised me)
46% 3-PT
6.9 RB
2.5 Assists

Bibby:

12.7 PTS
42% FG
79% FT
28% 3-PT
2.6 RB
5 Assists

I'd say Peja's numbers look like he "showed up" and Bibby had a pretty miserable PO, the supposed playoff stud (Bibby even said so). This isn't posted to bash Bibby or rave about Peja. But let's not talk like Peja has always sucked in the playoffs.

I really wish you didn't do that. I can understand how you could feel that Team Dime is over the top with his comments on Pedja last few days, but we really don't need another Pedja vs. Webb neverending flame fest.

Not because there is anything wrong with arguing opinions, but it is really difficult to contrubute anything of substence when every thread is hijacked by pro et contra arguments on a single issue irrespective of what the thread is about. Not trying to censor you, just my honest opinion.

[kennadog]

I agree....I'd rather it stopped too. But there's been an awful lot of Peja criticism in here. I just wanted to correct a misperception that appears rampant in many of these threads. And this thread is about playoff performance..

[Bricklayer]

I'd say Peja's numbers look like he "showed up" and Bibby had a pretty miserable PO, the supposed playoff stud (Bibby even said so). This isn't posted to bash Bibby or rave about Peja. But let's not talk like Peja has always sucked in the playoffs.

Yes indeedy, in what is looking more and more like the proof of the blind squirrel theory. Actually the series that first led me to develop the "Peja is not a choker, he's just not as good on offense as the stoppers are on defense" theory. With Webber going down, given the opportunity to be the main man against the no-defense Dallas Mavericks...Peja was adequate. In a crazy series where everybody and their grandmother was scoring every game, Peja scored pretty well. Just another scorer in a scoring series, but at least it was the one and only season when he didn't take a giant step backward.

These are the playoff numbers over the career:

'98-99 .346 FG% 4.8pts
'99-'00 .400 FG% 8.8pts
'00-'01 .406 FG% 21.6pts
'01-'02 .376 FG% 14.8pts
'02-'03 .480 FG% 23.1pts
'03-'04 .384 FG% 17.5pts
'04-'05 .375 FG% 15.0pts

Do you realize that without that without that postseason, and more particularly that series, that Peja Stojakovic, often considered the best shooter of his generation, would be shooting less than 40% in the playoffs over his career? That is a staggering number.

[bozzwell]

I agree....I'd rather it stopped too. But there's been an awful lot of Peja criticism in here. I just wanted to correct a misperception that appears rampant in many of these threads. And this thread is about playoff performance..

I agree with that part, I don't agree with including Mike's stats because, whatever your intention was, it will be construed as Pedja v. Mike.

For example, I would point out to the fact that Pedja's play off dissapearances are confined to two Lakers series (in one he was injured and limited, in other he shot horribly from 3pt land despite overall OK stats) and last year series vs. Minnesota (horrible shot percentage and lower then usual scoring). When you look at the rest of his PO's his stats tell completely different story. Besides, with Pedja it was never about numbers (you could make same argument about many other players) but about the final outcome.

[kennadog]

Well if someone thinks I meant it as Peja vs Bibby, they'd be wrong. I love Bibby. His is the only jersey I own. Neither did I say Peja was a great playoff performer. I'm just not in favor of terms like never or always.

[bozzwell]

Well if someone thinks I meant it as Peja vs Bibby, they'd be wrong. I love Bibby. His is the only jersey I own. Neither did I say Peja was a great playoff performer. I'm just not in favor of terms like never or always.

Thanks for clarifying that. Props for selecting Bibby jersey.

[VF21]

Semantics aside, I think Bricklayer has shown that OVERALL and FOR THE MOST PART Peja's performance in the playoffs has not been what one would have expected of one of the league's proclaimed "pure shooters."

For the record, the 2002-03 playoffs could just be the exception that proves the rule. (Don't ask me what that means - I just know my logic teacher used to say it all the time.)

[PixelPusher]

'98-99 .346 FG% 4.8pts
'99-'00 .400 FG% 8.8pts
'00-'01 .406 FG% 21.6pts
'01-'02 .376 FG% 14.8pts
'02-'03 .480 FG% 23.1pts
'03-'04 .384 FG% 17.5pts
'04-'05 .375 FG% 15.0pts


Too bad Peja isn't a Baseball player, those would be Hall of Fame batting averages :D

[bozzwell]

Yes indeedy, in what is looking more and more like the proof of the blind squirrel theory. Actually the series that first led me to develop the "Peja is not a choker, he's just not as good on offense as the stoppers are on defense" theory. With Webber going down, given the opportunity to be the main man against the no-defense Dallas Mavericks...Peja was adequate. In a crazy series where everybody and their grandmother was scoring every game, Peja scored pretty well. Just another scorer in a scoring series, but at least it was the one and only season when he didn't take a giant step backward.

These are the playoff numbers over the career:

'98-99 .346 FG% 4.8pts
'99-'00 .400 FG% 8.8pts
'00-'01 .406 FG% 21.6pts
'01-'02 .376 FG% 14.8pts
'02-'03 .480 FG% 23.1pts
'03-'04 .384 FG% 17.5pts
'04-'05 .375 FG% 15.0pts

Do you realize that without that without that postseason, and more particularly that series, that Peja Stojakovic, often considered the best shooter of his generation, would be shooting less than 40% in the playoffs over his career? That is a staggering number.

I see we're working off of the same spreadsheet. ;) I have some interesting interprations of the data (purely baseball inspired statistical analysis) but I am saving that for another day.

[teamdimechampionship]

Too bad Peja isn't a Baseball player, those would be Hall of Fame batting averages :D

That's awesome....I was thinking the same thing.

[Venom]

Are you seriously suggesting that a 6'10" forward should be able to keep a point guard from blowing by him? The reason Peja is playing Lewis is because ::drum roll: they play the same position! And if Peja were to play Allen, I guarantee he'd make a better showing against him than Mobley would do against Lewis.
BTW, if you hadn't noticed, Brad Miller and Brian Skinner have been getting crushed inside by 7'1" 300-lb. James so of course Peja would get crushed as well.



Not really worth responding to, but in case you forgot, Lewis is a guy who has scored 50 in a game, he's a current All-Star, and Seattle's #2 option on offense.

Some of this is getting as ridiculous as the Webber-hating was.
~~

What's the point of the above post? You reiterate that Peja is guarding the only guy he is capable of guarding, meaning he is not a versatile, "shut down" defender. And then some vague attempt to prop up Lewis. Um, Reggie Evans and Danny Fortson would also crush Peja inside, not just Jerome James. I meant EVERY Seattle big man when I said that he could not slide into the post. Shoot, even Collison might do something. No, I can't back that up.

[kingsgurl10]

Hey i went to that game and it was GREAT! we had box seats in suit Q. Bibby was my babby that night and that was THE BEST graduation present EVER!!!!!!!

[burekijogurt]

'98-99 .346 FG% 4.8pts
'99-'00 .400 FG% 8.8pts
'00-'01 .406 FG% 21.6pts
'01-'02 .376 FG% 14.8pts
'02-'03 .480 FG% 23.1pts
'03-'04 .384 FG% 17.5pts
'04-'05 .375 FG% 15.0pts

Do you realize that without that without that postseason, and more particularly that series, that Peja Stojakovic, often considered the best shooter of his generation, would be shooting less than 40% in the playoffs over his career? That is a staggering number.

Didn't Peja shoot 47% these playoffs for 22pts a game or is ESPN wrong?

[uolj]

Didn't Peja shoot 47% these playoffs for 22pts a game or is ESPN wrong?This is an old thread from after game 3. His last two games bumped up his numbers.