Grades v. Lakers 12/16

[Bricklayer]

Tough to find a single scapegoat for our ugliness tongiht. Question of the eveing: Has our lack of athleticism reached such a critical mass that it will undermine all our efforts this year?

Peja ( C+ ) -- just not up to the challenge tonight. Was not awful so much as irrelevant on a night when we needed him to be special. Was taking care of his on defense at least, which set him apart from virtually everyone else on the floor. Missed open shots that we needed him to knock down because everyone from Kobe to Tierre Brown was hitting them for the Lakers.
Webber ( C+ ) -- tonight it was his night to have the nightmare athletic matchup on defense (against Odom). And it did not go well. Actually hsi game kind of felt worse than it really was, because when you got down to it, at the point Webb left the game it was 20pts on 10/18 for Webb, 20pts on 10/15 for Odom. So not a blowout. But Odom's easy scoring and ability to drive and set up his teammates really set the tone for the Lakers. And a point of concern is Webb's boardwork, or lack thereof. He did not board well on the road trip, dropped below 10 a game for the first time all year, and then only nabbed 4 today. He needs to redidicate himself and get back in there. You can tell when he's focused on the glass, and right now he's not. Was one of the only Kings fighting back on offense, but at times was quick shooting.
Miller ( C- ) -- Brad has these games against athletic teams where he just looks like a fish out of water. The bizarre part is that he is rarely able to take advantage of his bulk and dominate the glass in these games. Seems like the whole game goes south. And to make matters worse of course, unlike Webb when Brad gets into these uncomfortable athletic zones, he does not have anything to turn to on offense to take advanatage of his size. Lot of minutes
Christie ( C ) -- made some nice passes, was harassing defensively early. But one of those games against kobe where doug was totally and completely irrelevant. i might as well have been guarding him. Kobe pretty much went where he wanted to, did what he wanted to, and Doug was unable to disrupt anything. Tribute to Kobe's game (now TWICE against us), also a cautionary tale about Doug's declining ability to be an impact defender. Also missed open shots we could nto afford. Nothing stylistically the matter with Douog's game tonight, but the results were flat. There was no pop with him in the game, and Bobby was far more effective in relief.
Bibby ( C+ ) -- started off the game immensely aggressive. Missed his first three shots in rapid succession, and looked like it might be a grim night, but then just attacked and attacked and eneded up as the leading scorer and energy guy in the first quarter. But even while he was hot, there was a cautionary tale as chucky Atkins was able to score back at him on the other front. Mike wasn't playing terrible defense, but neither was he disrupting anything. In the second half he was no longer hot, but ocntinued having defensive issues. Hot start may also have got him too focused on the hoop as he only notched a pair of assists.
BJax ( B+ ) -- Bobby bounced back nicely tonight. Came in with a ton of energy in the early second, and immediately starting grabbing huge rebounds. Also scored 20pts in 22 minutes, and took Kobe for those long stretches when we went with th small guard lineup (with limited success). Was sloppy at times, but easily the best thing we ahd going tonight. Bobby, at least, was competing.
Songaila ( B ) -- solid game by Darius. Particularly appreciated his uncommon tenacity on the boards -- after a pathetic start to the season when he was boarding like a slightly heftier Peja, he has been much stronger in recent weeks.
Tag ( INC ) -- got 1 pukie little minute to start the 2nd period. Not quite sure why, nor why we didn't try him just out of desperation as the lakers were slaughtering us on defense.
Barnes ( D+ ) -- gave us a whole bunch of nothing again. And we know this about him now -- cannot guard Kobe. Slumping in recent weeks at a critical time for him. Have no doubt we'll keep him on the roster, but we have to be taking longing looks at that waiver wire about now with effectively no backup SF or swingman right now.
Evans ( INC ) -- garbagetime, I wasn't paying very close attention, so somebody else will have to fill int he details.
Daniels ( INC ) -- garbagetime, I wasn't paying very close attention, so somebody else will have to fill int he details.
Martin ( INC ) -- garbagetime, I wasn't paying very close attention, so somebody else will have to fill int he details.

Adelman ( C ) -- well, what to say about this one. We just got slaughtered on defense, and never did find an answer. Rick called the appropriate time outs, but they made no difference. He also made the predicatable defensive switches, trying first Brad and then Peja on Odom, and trying Peja and BJax on Kobe after Christie proved ineffective. But none of it worked. Think this is one of those games where Rick's greatest strength -- his calm steady as she goes approach -- just was not conducive to him making the sorts of radical moves that he would have had to to get us back into it (maybe going to a press, quick douobles, zones etc.). But it likely still woudl not have mattered. Tonight was just one of those nights where Kobe grew a brain stem and the lakers played great. And frghteningly when you looked at the Kings, at our lack of athleticism, there just weren't many answers there no matter who was coahcing them.

[piksi]

Bibby's grade is way too high. He was not even trying to play PG. After he stopped hitting shots - there was nothing. He managed to put Atkins and Brown on the all star ballot.

[HndsmCelt]

C's are usualy seen as passing grades. This class needs remediation.

[Bricklayer]

C's are usualy seen as passing grades.
Don't know what college you have been going to. :)

[VF21]

Okay, here it is. You might want to mark this game on your calendar...

Team grade: F

That was NOT acceptable for an elite team on their home court. The Kings were in the game until they simply decided to quit passing. In addition, they hurried their possessions to the point where I was screaming at my TV. That is NOT smart basketball. I certainly hope they got it out of their systems.

[SacTownKid]

I am not calling for the head of Adelman but the coaching is F-. If the defense is struggling put in better defensive players. Don't try to combat offense with more offense, you end up trading baskets. I am sick of all this lip service about defense. Greg Ostertag was brought in to clog the paint!! Tonight the only thing he had the opprotunity to clog was a seat on the bench.

[bozzwell]

I usually agree with your grades and like your criteria where players are graded relative to their ability and status with the team, but tonight - no way any of the starters deserve better then C- and Bibby doesn't deserve even that. He continues to give opposing PG's room at the top of the arc and never "closes in" as they start moving with the ball. Right now, I would accept the minimal defensive intensity and be happy.

[sloter]

Actually, I thought that Webber deserved a better grade. He did take a couple of dumb shots early in the shotclock, but he should have NOT been matched up against Odom on D.

[HndsmCelt]

Don't know what college you have been going to. :)Acording to the Provost office The CSU system considers C a passing grade and we do indeed graduate studets with 2.5 GPA's... Hate to be bearrer of bad news.

[SacTownKid]

Actually, I thought that Webber deserved a better grade. He did take a couple of dumb shots early in the shotclock, but he should have NOT been matched up against Odom on D.
Webber had a fairly good offensive game and your right he should not have been matched up with Odom. I think Pete Carril is our only option, the man is a monster in the paint. Odom wouldn't know what to do.

[Bricklayer]

Sorry, I just happen to think people forget who we are playing, and tend to underestimate the Lakers part in all of this -- they played a GREAT game.

In any case my scale comes out to a B- average game anyway. I save my Ds and Fs for 2-13 performances against the Hornets, otherwise there's no place left to go down.

[VF21]

You know, that goes a long way towards explaining quite a few things...

But, in all fairness about the grades above, I think D's would be more in order. If you go on A is Excellent, B is above average, C is average, D is below average and F is unacceptable I think for the most part, D's are in order...

Just my 3.74 cents, however...

;)

[kingsfan25]

I am not calling for the head of Adelman but the coaching is F-. If the defense is struggling put in better defensive players. Don't try to combat offense with more offense, you end up trading baskets. I am sick of all this lip service about defense. Greg Ostertag was brought in to clog the paint!! Tonight the only thing he had the opprotunity to clog was a seat on the bench.
oh lord,. i was too drunk to type all you said. yet its everything im thinking.

you're my heroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :D

although... im calling for his head.. he baaaaaaaa-lowwwwwwwwz

[VF21]

Actually, I thought that Webber deserved a better grade. He did take a couple of dumb shots early in the shotclock, but he should have NOT been matched up against Odom on D.
Who are you and what have you done with sloter?

:eek:

[SacTownKid]

oh lord,. i was too drunk to type all you said. yet its everything im thinking.

you're my heroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :D

although... im calling for his head.. he baaaaaaaa-lowwwwwwwwz
I'll go as far to say he should be repeatedly spanked with a flaming towel. His head...I wouldn't go that far.

[quick dog]

I think the Lakers shot unusually well tonight. I don't think they could do that three-point stuff consistently. The long bombs stretched-out the defenders, if the Kings even tried to block the long ones. Plus, the Kings missed a lot of open shots. I really don't think the Kings lost because of Laker athleticism as much as basketball fortune.

I would agree that it does not bode well for Webber and the Kings to have Odom running around like that. Kobe has always done that.




I suppose a "C" is a passing grade at universities where the alumni don't force professors to hand out gimme grades to elevate the school's image. It also depends on the major.

[VF21]

oh lord,. i was too drunk to type all you said. yet its everything im thinking.

you're my heroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :D

although... im calling for his head.. he baaaaaaaa-lowwwwwwwwz
You might want to go make a large pot of coffee...

[kingsfan25]

You might want to go make a large pot of coffee...
hahahhaa. yeah i am getting a little off subject here..

but on a better note... the kings still rule the lakers..

let them glorify over one win that they will surely never see again.

[Bricklayer]

Acording to the Provost office The CSU system considers C a passing grade and we do indeed graduate studets with 2.5 GPA's... Hate to be bearrer of bad news.
I had no idea they still gave out Cs in college for anything short of failing. :)

I knwo people who actually made their choice of law school basd on which school had then highest grade inflation because higher grades = more impressive transcripts = higher paying jobs out of college. And of course that puts pressures onteh schools to inflate etc. Vicious circle.

In any case, if I give somebody a C+ I'm mildly unhappy with their performance. Anything lower and I'm quite unhappy. Save Ds and Fs for guys who were real goats. Tonight all of our guys could have played considerably worse games. Just not all of them together at the same time.

[SacTownKid]

hahahhaa. yeah i am getting a little off subject here..

but on a better note... the kings still rule the lakers..

let them glorify over one win that they will surely never see again.
Well the last game they almost one and if we play D like that again this won't be the last blowout.

[piksi]

Actually, I thought that Webber deserved a better grade. He did take a couple of dumb shots early in the shotclock, but he should have NOT been matched up against Odom on D.

I disagree here. He could not stay with Mihm either (couple possesion) If he is on the floor he has to guard someone. He had a large part in killing our offense too. He was outrebounded by 5 other Kings. He was not the worst King tonight. Better grade - I do not think so.

[HndsmCelt]

I had no idea they still gave out Cs in college for anything short of failing. :)

I knwo people who actually made their choice of law school basd on which school had then highest grade inflation because higher grades = more impressive transcripts = higher paying jobs out of college. And of course that puts pressures onteh schools to inflate etc. Vicious circle.

In any case, if I give somebody a C+ I'm mildly unhappy with their performance. Anything lower and I'm quite unhappy. Save Ds and Fs for guys who were real goats. Tonight all of our guys could have played considerably worse games. Just not all of them together at the same time. Not sure I can go there with you all of this. Ok sure they could have played wrose ball, but this was no a good team palying mediocre being beaten by anaverage team playing great. This was a very good team making scrubs like Brown look like all star contenders. Oh well watter over the bridge now. As a college instructor in the midst of final grading I can assure you D's and F's still exist (at least in my book) and a C is earned by preforming marginaly , B means above average and A's are reserved for superior effort... probalby makes me unpopular, but in case you have not noticed others opinions of me are not my concern.

[VF21]

As a college instructor in the midst of final grading I can assure you D's and F's still exist (at least in my book) and a C is earned by preforming marginaly , B means above average and A's are reserved for superior effort... probalby makes me unpopular, but in case you have not noticed others opinions of me are not my concern.
So was I close?

If you go on A is Excellent, B is above average, C is average, D is below average and F is unacceptable I think for the most part, D's are in order...

[HndsmCelt]

So was I close? yup

[LPKingsFan]

Good points.

First, regarding Webb's rebounding. This was something I noticed at the game. Oftentimes, Webb was nowhere near being around the hoop when a shot was going up. It seemed like he was saving his energy for guarding Odom or something. I was afraid Odom was going to play like this, I still remember his performance against the hobbled Webb in Miami last year. At least it wasnt so bad this year, yet

I also don't get why Tag played one measly minute. Maybe Adelman dissaproved of his calling in to local radio shows. I don't know. Sure, he's considerably less athletic than anyone the Lakers had out there, but since we were sucking at the interior defense, maybe he could have clogged the lane a little bit. Or just fouled Kobe more.

[sloter]

Who are you and what have you done with sloter?

:eek:Well, the grades ARE based on expectations ;)

piksi, Mihm does have a couple of inches on Webber, but even though he hit some shots on Webber (I remember him hitting only one, maybe two) he wouldn't be able to do to him what Odom did.
The real problem is Webber can't guard him and Miller can't guard him, so who do those TWO guys guard ?! Looks like a case of "Vlade vs. Mavericks".

[albeitrue]

I think Peja and Web's grades were accurate, and I think their effort was slightly better than average as indicated, just not as noticable since it didn't produce very good results. I noticed Brad looking lost out there also, and wondered why, since the Lakers were small why aren't we? Darius is impressing me with his play in the paint, he is getting more comfortable as the year progresses. That board he nabbed with Jumaine camping on his back (and passed to Jackson who assisted DC) was a missed "jem" in the game. And, though Barnes played limited games in his rookie year so technically this is his second year, he may just need a little extra time to adjust to his current status -- it must still be awesome for him, maybe he needs a little more time to get his feet replanted, though he's an integral part of the backcourt relief we can't rush these things. ;) We have been patient with others that we've needed, and we need Barnes.

I began to frost my cake after last timeout (garbagetime), and I laughed at your explanation for giving the last 3 guys INC's! But I was wondering why Adelman, with about 5-1/2 minutes left and only down 16, didn't call a timeout and try to regroup? I wasn't surprised he threw in the white flag at about 4:20, I was actually hoping he would. But it would have been a stretch on most other nights...

Anyway, ugly, ugly loss. Made even uglier because it was the Lakers.

[#1sacfan]

Okay, here it is. You might want to mark this game on your calendar...

Team grade: F

That was NOT acceptable for an elite team on their home court. The Kings were in the game until they simply decided to quit passing. In addition, they hurried their possessions to the point where I was screaming at my TV. That is NOT smart basketball. I certainly hope they got it out of their systems.
Good comments except that some of us Kings fans are still under the illusion that we are an elite team. There are 4 teams in the West that are better then us and not to mention Detroit and Indiana when they have everyone. We are just a pretty good team and that is it.

[Crackerman]

One Word


Pathetic!!!!!!!

[KA_2]

I think someone mentioned it in this thread, but despite how great Bibby is offensively, he's still easily one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. Next to Nash.

Now that Christie's just about done, the first order of business for Petrie is finding perimeter defenders, no matter what position they play. Make a run at Pietrus from GS if you can.

[Mad D]

Make a run at Pietrus from GS if you can.just wondering (since i haven't seen him play this season) where/when did Pietrus get listed as such a defensive specialist?

[TheSerbianQueen]

The team seemed to have been caught half asleep...... Not sure if they had wayyyyyyyy too much confidence before the game or what, but they were certainly not prepared for what was around the corner.

Hopefully, that was it for the bad surprises.

[4cwebb]

Now that Christie's just about done, the first order of business for Petrie is finding perimeter defenders, no matter what position they play. Make a run at Pietrus from GS if you can.
This is a great suggestion. Pietrus may not be Bruce Bowen, at least not yet, but he has the heart and desire to do so, and he's athletic as just about anyone in the league. Had a solid game against the Mavs the other night on the offensive side of the ball as well. He's a high effort player just like DC, and DC could probably still teach him a few tricks.

[KA_2]

just wondering (since i haven't seen him play this season) where/when did Pietrus get listed as such a defensive specialist? Most people that have scouted the guy in some form (I have before he was an NBA player) and most GS fans will tell you that he's simply an amazing physical specimen. His quickness and athleticism are on the level of a LeBron James or Marcus Banks.

This is a great suggestion. Pietrus may not be Bruce Bowen, at least not yet, but he has the heart and desire to do so, and he's athletic as just about anyone in the league. Had a solid game against the Mavs the other night on the offensive side of the ball as well. He's a high effort player just like DC, and DC could probably still teach him a few tricks. Yup. His stock is low too, hasn't been getting minutes in GS (but don't for a second think it's because he's not capable, GS is the worst franchise in sports), but he has shown flashes of brilliance offensively, in addition to his already stellar defensive abilities. If he wanted to, he could cover point guards.

Petrie would probably have to offer Martin and cash, and maybe a pick. If it came down to it, I’d offer Bobby straight up for Pietrus. Hard to ignore a 9 year difference in age between Bobby and Pietrus.

[4cwebb]

I just have trouble believing that GS would even want to do a deal like this, but as you point out, it is the Warriors, and with Derek Fisher injured, they need another PG in the worst way. Heck, with the loss of Brian Cardinal, may be they'd be willing to take Songaila off our hands as well.

[Evenstar]

I just have trouble believing that GS would even want to do a deal like this, but as you point out, it is the Warriors, and with Derek Fisher injured, they need another PG in the worst way. Heck, with the loss of Brian Cardinal, may be they'd be willing to take Songaila off our hands as well.
and why would the kings want to get rid of songaila????

[vladetomiller]

Lakers came out with a plan and executed it well. They were taking it to webber and bibby and were not trying to set up kobe in the first half. Basically it was the kings two best players trading points with the laker counter parts and that doesnt always sound good when you know that the lakers best player is waiting to explode anytime.

RA should have done something sometime to stop those lay ups, that one play where odom started from the top of the circle and just ran right to the rim and dunked that deserved a time out and a change in line up. You cant let a player do that even if they are in the calibre of kobe or tmac. Taking it to the hole from the sideline and going past a couple of defenders for a dunk (like kobe did) is kinda acceptable since the weakside doesnt have that much time to react. But to let the guy come right from the top of the key past 5 guys to dunk without anyone contesting, thats ugly.

Lakers played a great game and i am not sure if they can have a better shooting night than this where they were able to hit everything, again they may not face another team that gives up so many open shots every time they come down the floor. The game was close in the first half since the kings moved the ball and shared the ball. Second half or even end of first half it was webber taking those jumpers from the high post or brad taking jumpers, it was not even about taking jumpers but it was hesitation before the jumpers that cost them more. For some reason they didnt belive in their shots and even when they were open they didnt want to take shots unless it was bobby/bibby/webber. Those three took shots that were not even there and they made a few just based on their talent and brilliance, but thats not kings ball.

Peja was not set up enough and i am not sure if it was pejas mistake or the teams, they just didnt have enough plays designed for him.

[webberfan]

Good comments except that some of us Kings fans are still under the illusion that we are an elite team. There are 4 teams in the West that are better then us and not to mention Detroit and Indiana when they have everyone. We are just a pretty good team and that is it.
i wholeheartedly agree. we are not an elite team. we got worked by an inferior club last nite in our own crib. the worst feeling for me was knowing that barkley and kerr were internally gloating as our kings decided they were going to take the night off, on a nationally televised game and on a night when there were only two other games being played.

btw, there is no player in the league who makes doug look as bad on defense as kobe. that reverse slam was sick.

[LPKingsFan]

I think someone mentioned it in this thread, but despite how great Bibby is offensively, he's still easily one of the worst defenders at his position in the league. Next to Nash.

Now that Christie's just about done, the first order of business for Petrie is finding perimeter defenders, no matter what position they play. Make a run at Pietrus from GS if you can.
Pietrus is intriguing, yet wouldn't it make more sense to get better interior defenders to cover for Bibby's lapses if players can just blow by him?

[patrick204]

The man is still getting over plantar fasciitis. Given his energy, work ethic and superb basketball body, I expect the Doug of last year's playoffs will be back in a couple of months.

Especially if we play Kevin Martin more!

[Bricklayer]

Pietrus is intriguing, yet wouldn't it make more sense to get better interior defenders to cover for Bibby's lapses if players can just blow by him?
Problem with that is jsut the minutes. When your main cogs all have defensive issues, then its hard to patch by adding deep bench guys. We've got a shotblocker on the team, but he's hard pressed to find minutes behind Webb and Miller. If we brought in another, he'd either have to be good enough to steal minutes from those guys (or maybe just eliminate Darius from the rotation) or would actually have to be brought in via a trade FOR one of those guys, which would be a blockbuster to say the least.

[HndsmCelt]

Systems are delecate and sensitive things, and adding elements (players) changes them with many unpredicted results. If your team is clearly not going anywhre you do it. If your team is close the answer is more likley to be found in taking the existing pieces and exploiting strnths and improving weakness. Think endless rebound drills, improved paly execution in the interior, big me boxing out so the little guys pick up more boards, improved bench rotation, on ball defense drills, exploitation of passing game to an even larger extent and sending Mike, DC, Bobby and Pedja as cutters to the basket much more often. Looking at new players is more often than not an way to improve a team as much as it is a way for managemnt to claim they are "doing something."

[quick dog]

I think sport teams get into rhythms, good and bad. Losing teams that have sufficient skills to win, but lose anyway, simply fail to react and adapt to on-the-court stress. That's also how armies lose battles. Last night, the Kings kept doing the same old stuff that wasn't working. It was like trench warfare. I would have liked them to do something off the radar.

What would have happened if the Kings would have taken it to the basket almost every time. How about some application of brute force with Webber, Miller, Ostertag, and Peja. How about drawing fouls with slashes to the basket by Bibby, Bobby, Barnes, and Christie? For crying out loud, send in the deep bench guys with orders to show off. Just something to change the status quo.

When the Kings are being molested by three-point shots and masterful dunkage, something needs to change. If there were a few more Songaila smashes to Kobe's noggin, he would have modified his play, one way or the other. Ostertag needed more time. The Kings needed Tag. Somebody send a telegram to Adelman.

[KA_2]

Look, the Kings probably aren't going to win the championship this year. It's not because they don't have talent, they have loads of it and they know their offense and each other better than any core in the league. They know exactly what their weaknesses are; perimeter D, shot blocking. They can shore up a lot of the perimeter D problems with Pietrus. They're not going to get anybody better than him in trade this season, unless they're willing to give up their big 4 (Bibby, Webber, Peja, Miller). Christie and Bojax are expendable for the right players, but chemistry is a delicate thing, that would be a tough decision.

Still, if the Kings can somehow get Pietrus without losing their big 4, IMO they are much stronger contenders. Shot blocking is impossible to get unless they take minutes away from Webber and Miller (which you shouldn’t).

[SacTownKid]

Pietrus is intriguing, yet wouldn't it make more sense to get better interior defenders to cover for Bibby's lapses if players can just blow by him?
We have one, his name is Greg Ostertag. You may have heard of him, he sits next to the Kevin Martin on the bench.