Time to blow up the team - Save K-Mart & Ron

[TheJoker]

I have been busy latly with work and family. but i will just have to express this as a Kings fan that has seen enough mediocrity out of this team since i can remember. after last years run with the Ron trade i expected this team to continue to play solid and not be a stuck at mud '500 team'.

i know Eric still has to work with this team but i really want the Maloofs and Geoff to blow this team up i just don't think this team is going anywhere. if we're going through a rebuilding process then its the best thing we can do right now. right now this team is only a 8th seed as i see it and it pains me to say it. :(

[VF21]

Oh good grief.

[TheJoker]

Oh good grief.

Yes i know, i'm being a little sensitive right now but...

If we can keep Ron & K-Mart

and Trade Bibby & Brad or whomever for Young talents/Picks then i will go for it i'm more pepared for the future then right now.

[VF21]

Yeah, whatever.

Sorry, but you haven't been around in a long time and when you do return, the first thing you do is post this "sky is falling" stuff? Why bother?

[TheJoker]

Yeah, whatever.

Sorry, but you haven't been around in a long time and when you do return, the first thing you do is post this "sky is falling" stuff? Why bother?

I'm not suggesting the sky is falling but there comes a time were a team has to start over i think we're one of them.

of course i can be wrong but i'm posting what i feel is right for this team doesn't mean i'm right... but its something that is worth discussing.

[Lamar_Odom]

I'm not suggesting the sky is falling but there comes a time were a team has to start over i think we're one of them.

of course i can be wrong but i'm posting what i feel is right for this team doesn't mean i'm right... but its something that is worth discussing.



I thought the rebuilding process started with trading Webber. Rebuilding takes time. The Kings are actually fortunate not to have missed the playoffs while they are going through this process.

[VF21]

And Lamar_Odom wins the thread.

[TheJoker]

Lamar_Odom brings up a good point, but i think trading Bibby and Brad for young peices like Deng or Vajerao will really help our future.

with this team i'm not sure what to expect but a early 1st round exit and we're not gonna be satisfied with that.

[VF21]

If you want to talk about hypothetical trades, please use the Personnel Moves forum.

In fact, I'll move this there for you...

[PieceOfStrange]

I'm in total agreement. This team, as I see it, consists of Artest, Martin, and Price. Everyone else is trade bait. This is not a "sky is falling post", this is reality.

[PieceOfStrange]

Since this has been moved to the "personnel" section, who can we get for our "studs" (Miller, Bibby, SAR, Thomas)? Who can we get and what does Muss want?

[Dime Dropper]

And Lamar_Odom wins the thread.


Actually, no he doesn't.

TheJoker has a point. There is no point fooling ourselves into thinking we are going to go deep in the PO's. Right now, we are a 1st round exit type team (assuming we even make the PO's). Unless GP makes some big changes (literally!) then we are going to continue to be a mediocre team. Personally I would rather GP make a trade to put us into the elite right now than go young and let them develop for the next 5/6 years. Having yong pieces is great, but are we really going to have a better supporting cast than we have now? Right now we are a superstar away from a title. Going young is a risk that could end up with us having another team of great role players. We have a better all-round team than the Lakers, but they're better than us because of Kobe. Same with Denver and Carmelo. And it's the reason we'd probably lose to Minny in the PO's.
But, having said that, I would rather go young than sticking around mediocrity (sp?), making it to the PO's, 1st round exit, and a crappy pick. I'd much rather trade for young pieces and get a top 10 pick (in a draft that is completely loaded with stars). Then we would still be bad next year and will end up with another good pick. May sound a bit over analysed after only 15 games, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out we're not a very good team. We're middle of the road. I wish GP would attempt to make a big trade (of course maybe he already is, but IMO he's just letting the team roll as there doesn't seem to be any action).


My point is that theJoker has a very good and valid point. It's reality, this season isn't going to end happily unless something is done.

[thatguy]

In a weird way, I've missed these inane threads. They rate high on the unintentional comedy scale.

[GoGoGadget]

I still think that, despite his obvious flaws, Mike Bibby is a better player than anyone we could realistically get as a replacement. My keepers are still Mike, Ron and Kevin. Everyone else... they don't all NEED to go, but I wouldn't be sad if they did.

[nbrans]

I still think that, despite his obvious flaws, Mike Bibby is a better player than anyone we could realistically get as a replacement. My keepers are still Mike, Ron and Kevin. Everyone else... they don't all NEED to go, but I wouldn't be sad if they did.

I agree that there's not a better point guard out there that a team is going to realistically trade, so if the Kings are going to trade Bibby they'd have to accept a downgrade at that position to improve in other areas.

The only way I could see a Bibby trade were if the Kings got a guy like Earl Watson (who is the best defensive point guard in the league but doesn't bring anything close to Mike's ability on offense) or someone like Mo Williams (who at 23 looks like a more-athletic Bibby in the making), plus a big or a pick. But neither of those guys is a better individual player than Bibby, and the good-player-for-two-ok-players type of trade doesn't usually work.

Ultimately I think the Bibby situation is going to be resolved in the offseason. There really are four options: 1) he stays at his current salary and it's the status quo, 2) he gets a raise from the Kings (unlikely in my opinion), 3) a S&T or 4) he walks. #4 isn't the disaster it may seem, because when his salary comes off the books the Kings would actually have about $13 million in cap room to go after Chanucey Billups or Mo Williams, and if it's Mo Williams there might be some extra money to go after a big.

[ImAKing]

i really hope Mike/Brad is gone after this season. i cant stand seeing Mike chucking up shots after shots anymore. and night in night out hes alway a liability on defense.

[SLAB]

I was thinking a trade that sends Bibby to Orlando for a package.

Something like Bibby/Garcia/Pick for Nelson/Hedo/Battie

We get a young PG who could eventually be a stud, a super 6th man who will improve our bench, and a big that gives us...Whats it called? Oh yes, size in the backup C position.

Then our line-up looks like.

Nelson/Price/Hart
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Hedo
Thomas/SAR
Miller/Battie

While the Magic get Bibby paired up with a low-post stud (Dwight Howard), which will increase his game because Bibby is a great complimentarey player, and should not be leading a team...They get their versatile swingman in Cisco who will essentially attempt to fill the role that Hedo played...Battie is expendable to move Darko Milicic into the starting 5.Leaving their line-up looking like...


Bibby/Arroyo/Dooling
Ariza/Reddick/Bogans
Hill/Cisco
Howard/Garrity
Milicic/???

This leaves them thin at backup 4/5 positions, but I think a lethal pairing of Bibby and Howard are wirth it.

I dunno...I was just PO'ed and came up with it last night.

[Troy]

I was thinking a trade that sends Bibby to Orlando for a package.

Something like Bibby/Garcia/Pick for Nelson/Hedo/Battie

We get a young PG who could eventually be a stud, a super 6th man who will improve our bench, and a big that gives us...Whats it called? Oh yes, size in the backup C position.

Then our line-up looks like.

Nelson/Price/Hart
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Hedo
Thomas/SAR
Miller/Battie

While the Magic get Bibby paired up with a low-post stud (Dwight Howard), which will increase his game because Bibby is a great complimentarey player, and should not be leading a team...They get their versatile swingman in Cisco who will essentially attempt to fill the role that Hedo played...Battie is expendable to move Darko Milicic into the starting 5.Leaving their line-up looking like...


Bibby/Arroyo/Dooling
Ariza/Reddick/Bogans
Hill/Cisco
Howard/Garrity
Milicic/???

This leaves them thin at backup 4/5 positions, but I think a lethal pairing of Bibby and Howard are wirth it.

I dunno...I was just PO'ed and came up with it last night.

I'd go for getting a good young PG who plays good D and is a distributer rather than a shoot 1st PG like Bibby is. I'd love to have Hedo back, he is a good shooter and has good size. Also we need size which Battie would bring. I also would suggest trading Bibby and Cisco to Utah for Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer, other filler to make it work.

Ronnie is ready to step up as KMart did and is great on D and is an amazing athlete so if we aren't bringing into a young starter PG and instead fill our big hole at the 4/5 for Bibby then a combo of Price and Salmons would be good at PG.

We are not going anywhere and Bibby is at a cross roads after this season and is making huge $12-14M/yr I'd trade for youth. Brad has his moments on D as he did last night at SA and keeping Duncan in check. He is a great passer, but is much more suited to the Princeton system under RA then Muss so if we are going to make a run at KG this is the time!

Miller & Bibby for KG and young PG/young big from the Wolves to make it work. This is a bitter sweet trade because we know that Miller & Bibby are/were Allstars and near the top in their position, but we are talking about KG here. With Kmart, SAR/K9, Salmons, Artest, Price, Cisco to back him up, I think we have a great Defensive group here as well as enough scoring. We have good versatility at the 4 with SAR and his post presence and K9s quickness/garbage man/ scrappiness. KG could be our converted Center and K9 would thrive with SAR coming off the bench as he has in the past as our 4/5 sub.

We have really changed direction 180 and get our points from limiting the other team from scoring and have good young guys in KMart and Price at the guards who are very quick and good athletes. Bibby is making way to much to be the huge defensive liability he is. I know the guy is clutch and what he has done for us in the past, but he is really a short SG, and we need a true PG who distributes the ball and shoots if his teamates don't have better looks and he has an opening. Ronnie is a great shooter as well and can really grow into the PG position and is an amazing athlete (dunk over Boozer) and defender.

Teams PGs are really feasting on us with getting past Bibby at will and driving to the hoop or dishing off to a wide open teamate when they are doubled. We need to stop this. If we are going to be a defensive team, we need to get rid of the past in players that never will do this for us. We have awesome firepower in KMart and Price is coming along and they are both young, quick, and good on D.


I keep hearing we are 1-2 players away from going somewhere. Well get this trade done and book your ticket to deep in the playoffs. We still don't have as deep of a bench as Miami, Dallas, or SA...but we have young guys that have great talent and KG/Artest would be amazing together. Bibby/Miller are scraps from the old run and gun Kings with no Defense (Princeton system). I think the Wolves would think long and hard if we offered Bibby/Miller to them, that's a 2 for 1 starters and both of those guys are the tops in their position. If you are going to do it and win, you have to be a gambler, this middle road CWebb trade is crap, if you want it..go for it and make a big splash! If you want to be this Defensive monster team then you need the right guys to do it, not scraps from a old regime which is 180 degrees different (High offense/no Defense)! :-)

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I think the OP is a little doomy and gloomy about how he puts it, but frankly I doubt Geoff and the Maloofs would have any qualm about "blowing it up" if the right opportunity presented itself.

imo, nothing about the current formula is "sacred", not Kevin, not Artest, not Bibby... nothing. They are a nice trio, but not a champion core imho.

Once in a while you catch lightning in a bottle and get a Webber/Divac "CORE" to build around - a champion contender core. We don't have that now or anything like it. That's ok because it hardly ever happens.

So, sure... blow it up if the right deal comes along.

But I don't think we suck now, I'm not down on the team now, and I'm not clamoring for a "blow up". The Kings haven't really disappointed me - I had moderate expectations for the season and they are right about on track or maybe a little better.

[nbrans]

I'd go for getting a good young PG who plays good D and is a distributer rather than a shoot 1st PG like Bibby is. I'd love to have Hedo back, he is a good shooter and has good size. Also we need size which Battie would bring. I also would suggest trading Bibby and Cisco to Utah for Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer, other filler to make it work.

Ronnie is ready to step up as KMart did and is great on D and is an amazing athlete so if we aren't bringing into a young starter PG and instead fill our big hole at the 4/5 for Bibby then a combo of Price and Salmons would be good at PG.

We are not going anywhere and Bibby is at a cross roads after this season and is making huge $12-14M/yr I'd trade for youth. Brad has his moments on D as he did last night at SA and keeping Duncan in check. He is a great passer, but is much more suited to the Princeton system under RA then Muss so if we are going to make a run at KG this is the time!

Miller & Bibby for KG and young PG/young big from the Wolves to make it work. This is a bitter sweet trade because we know that Miller & Bibby are/were Allstars and near the top in their position, but we are talking about KG here. With Kmart, SAR/K9, Salmons, Artest, Price, Cisco to back him up, I think we have a great Defensive group here as well as enough scoring. We have good versatility at the 4 with SAR and his post presence and K9s quickness/garbage man/ scrappiness. KG could be our converted Center and K9 would thrive with SAR coming off the bench as he has in the past as our 4/5 sub.

We have really changed direction 180 and get our points from limiting the other team from scoring and have good young guys in KMart and Price at the guards who are very quick and good athletes. Bibby is making way to much to be the huge defensive liability he is. I know the guy is clutch and what he has done for us in the past, but he is really a short SG, and we need a true PG who distributes the ball and shoots if his teamates don't have better looks and he has an opening. Ronnie is a great shooter as well and can really grow into the PG position and is an amazing athlete (dunk over Boozer) and defender.

Teams PGs are really feasting on us with getting past Bibby at will and driving to the hoop or dishing off to a wide open teamate when they are doubled. We need to stop this. If we are going to be a defensive team, we need to get rid of the past in players that never will do this for us. We have awesome firepower in KMart and Price is coming along and they are both young, quick, and good on D.


I keep hearing we are 1-2 players away from going somewhere. Well get this trade done and book your ticket to deep in the playoffs. We still don't have as deep of a bench as Miami, Dallas, or SA...but we have young guys that have great talent and KG/Artest would be amazing together. Bibby/Miller are scraps from the old run and gun Kings with no Defense (Princeton system). I think the Wolves would think long and hard if we offered Bibby/Miller to them, that's a 2 for 1 starters and both of those guys are the tops in their position. If you are going to do it and win, you have to be a gambler, this middle road CWebb trade is crap, if you want it..go for it and make a big splash! If you want to be this Defensive monster team then you need the right guys to do it, not scraps from a old regime which is 180 degrees different (High offense/no Defense)! :-)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but

1) Utah is not trading us Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer for Bibby and Cisco. I don't know if words can fully express how unrealistic that is.
2) Minnesota is not trading us Kevin Garnett for any package that doesn't include Kevin Martin (and even then still probably wouldn't)

[SLAB]

I was thinking a trade that sends Bibby to Orlando for a package.

Something like Bibby/Garcia/Pick for Nelson/Hedo/Battie

We get a young PG who could eventually be a stud, a super 6th man who will improve our bench, and a big that gives us...Whats it called? Oh yes, size in the backup C position.

Then our line-up looks like.

Nelson/Price/Hart
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Hedo
Thomas/SAR
Miller/Battie

While the Magic get Bibby paired up with a low-post stud (Dwight Howard), which will increase his game because Bibby is a great complimentarey player, and should not be leading a team...They get their versatile swingman in Cisco who will essentially attempt to fill the role that Hedo played...Battie is expendable to move Darko Milicic into the starting 5.Leaving their line-up looking like...


Bibby/Arroyo/Dooling
Ariza/Reddick/Bogans
Hill/Cisco
Howard/Garrity
Milicic/???

This leaves them thin at backup 4/5 positions, but I think a lethal pairing of Bibby and Howard are wirth it.

I dunno...I was just PO'ed and came up with it last night.

Im quoting myself to add another point to my whole trade, as a selling point for Orlando.

With Both Howard and Milicic being tall athletic shot-blockers, Bibby's defense wouldn't seem as terrible as people would be nervous to run right past him and float up lay-ups.

Dwight Howard and Darko Milicic are much more intimidating than Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas.

[nbrans]

I'd of course do that in a second, but I just can't see Orlando trading for Bibby when Nelson/Arroyo are playing so well.

The only teams that I can think of that would have a use for Bibby are Cleveland, Houston, Memphis, Lakers, Indiana and Atlanta. Everyone else seems to be pretty well set at the point guard position.

[SLAB]

Bibby would make Orlando an instant contender...At least for the East Conference.

It all depends on if they feel like they want to win now, or wait it out a few years until Dwight turns super-super stud and Nelson turns stud...Which will be lethal.

Trade or no trade, they will be East contenders for quite some time.

[AriesMar27]

for some reason i always thought that trading artest would make it easier to become conterders again than trading bibby...

artest/reef/filler(corliss/pot/garcia) would be a better trade for a big man like kg than bibby and miller... small affordable salarise as opposed to huge defenseless ones... and with mike james on the team why would they want bibby?

artest said that he would want to play for the knicks, maybe isaiah would be crazy enough to trade curry for artest... to be honest, as much as i love artest... he has the most trade value and... salmons plays well enough to make up for some of what artest brings... they are not on the same level but salmons plays better with martin than artest does...

i would love to dump bibby somewhere if we could get earl watson... but... oh well... if we had a real go-to guy then price/hart wouldnt be so bad...
bibby/artest/reef/corliss for kg/mike james wouldnt be that bad... especially if we could trade james somewhere else... maybe atlanta or cleaveland...

i hear that chandler isnt doing to well on the hornets.... maybe miller would be a better fit, doubt it but still...

[uopmatt]

How about I throw this one out.

What do you think about Bibby and Miller for Knight and Okafor. Charlotte would get better on offense and although Knight doesn't have near the capabilities of Bibby on offense I like the fact that he thinks pass first and is a much better defensive player. Plus we would have that shot-blocker we have always dreamed about.
Realistically, I don't know if the bobcats would make this trade but maybe it would be worth a try even if we had to throw in a pick and some other players.

[nbrans]

How about I throw this one out.

What do you think about Bibby and Miller for Knight and Okafor. Charlotte would get better on offense and although Knight doesn't have near the capabilities of Bibby on offense I like the fact that he thinks pass first and is a much better defensive player. Plus we would have that shot-blocker we have always dreamed about.
Realistically, I don't know if the bobcats would make this trade but maybe it would be worth a try even if we had to throw in a pick and some other players.

There's no way. Okafor is a young rising star, Knight's a savvy veteran keeping Felton's spot warm. Charlotte isn't interested in acuquiring high-paid veterans, they're building for the future with young players, picks and cap room.

[nbrans]

I don't think the Kings are going to get full value for Bibby until the offseason because of the uncertainty of his contract situation. No one is really going to give up too much when he could just opt out at the end of the season.

This is one of the only deals I could come up with that even remotely makes sense:

Sacramento outgoing:
Bibby
Sacramento incoming:
Earl Watson
Jeff Foster

Seattle outgoing:
Earl Watson
Seattle incoming:
Jamaal Tinsley (or Jasikevicius if they want to clear salary)

Indiana outgoing:
Jeff Foster
Jamaal Tinsely
Indiana incoming:
Mike Bibby

Again, this is getting into that dangerous "getting spare parts for one good player" type of deal. I like Earl Watson -- he's a great defender, a good distributor.. but he's no Bibby. At this point I think this may be the best the Kings could do, and it's certainly not pretty. I wouldn't do it.

In the offseason, if Bibby walks there's the possibility of offering a big deal to Darko starting in the $7 - $8 million range and then offering $5 million to Mo Williams. Mo/Darko is better and younger than Watson/Foster, but it all depends on whether Bibby opt out or not, and Mo Williams still has quite a bit of improving to do before he's as good as Bibby.

[SLAB]

maybe isaiah would be crazy enough to trade curry for artest...


Your kidding right?

Look here.

Ron Artest...17.4ppg, 7.6rpg, 3.1apg, 2.77spg, 1.08bpg...And All-NBA level defense night in, night out.

Eddy Curry...16.1ppg, 6.7rpg, 0.5apg, 0.32spg, 0.37bpg

The stats say everything.

Especially given Curry is a 7-foot center who does just about everything worse than Artest.

[xyrin]

Eddy Curry just had six 20+ games in a row though, with his most recent being 27 points. He is looking pretty good, but is not worth Artest.

[BMiller52]

artest said that he would want to play for the knicks, maybe isaiah would be crazy enough to trade curry for artest


Switch Isiah with Petrie and there you go!

[HndsmCelt]

Please, the time to "blow the team up" was this summer when there were great FA's to be had and some good trades might have been made. Now the Kings are more or less stuck with the players we have for better or worse. Mid season trades hapen but not often and never half a squad, so this pointless specualtion is no more connected to reality than debating if Spiderman could beat up Captain America.:cool:

[LiGhTsOuTT]

I don't think the Kings are going to get full value for Bibby until the offseason because of the uncertainty of his contract situation. No one is really going to give up too much when he could just opt out at the end of the season.

This is one of the only deals I could come up with that even remotely makes sense:

Sacramento outgoing:
Bibby
Sacramento incoming:
Earl Watson
Jeff Foster

Seattle outgoing:
Earl Watson
Seattle incoming:
Jamaal Tinsley (or Jasikevicius if they want to clear salary)

Indiana outgoing:
Jeff Foster
Jamaal Tinsely
Indiana incoming:
Mike Bibby

Again, this is getting into that dangerous "getting spare parts for one good player" type of deal. I like Earl Watson -- he's a great defender, a good distributor.. but he's no Bibby. At this point I think this may be the best the Kings could do, and it's certainly not pretty. I wouldn't do it.

In the offseason, if Bibby walks there's the possibility of offering a big deal to Darko starting in the $7 - $8 million range and then offering $5 million to Mo Williams. Mo/Darko is better and younger than Watson/Foster, but it all depends on whether Bibby opt out or not, and Mo Williams still has quite a bit of improving to do before he's as good as Bibby.




Bibby is the heart of the team he stays no matter what and artest is the person who the team revolves around them to shouldnt even be mantioned in the word trade

[DaMan]

There is some crazy trades going on right now, lol. There is no way that orlando, Bobcats, or the Jazz will trade there young guys for bibby. Orlando and Jazz are going to be great young teams and Bobcats have a nice young squad, i don't understand why they would try to break that up for Bibby who is 28, looking for big contract, overrated in my opinion, and seen his best days before webber was traded. I really don't think bibby is regared as such a great player as we make him out to be and is not worth a deal such as boozer and Deron William who is a better player and future allstar.

With that being said the best situation for bibby is a middle the pack playoff team where there is super star and a big shot blocker. A place where he could be the second or third opinion, a situation like he was in the old kings. Before the j.r smith trade, Denver could have been a ideal place and houston in my opinion would be a nice fit too.

And as for the rebuilding, we really need to do that. We are stuck inbettween making the playoffs and not. We could make a big trade and retool and try to make a run but didn't we try doing that with the sar and bonzi offseason, when we were expected to be one of the top teams in the west. We need to fully rebuild but people would say we started that after we traded webber but i disagree. Teams like Orlando, Tor, bulls, alt and Portland rebuilded. They totally redid their whole roster, they traded their star players and role players and started from nothing and now have some what of a future. But we instead tryed to put a bandade on something that needed surgury. Instead of completely rebuilding after trading webber we just tryed to replace the old team with a cheap vision and we still refuse to rebuild today. We are acting like Minn, Phili, and Boston even thou we might not be as bad as these teams they too refuse to to fully rebuild after the glory days. If we stay the same i really think that we to will end up as minn, philiy and boston and just suck up as an up and coming teams surpass us.

[BMiller52]

And as for the rebuilding, we really need to do that. We are stuck inbettween making the playoffs and not. We could make a big trade and retool and try to make a run but didn't we try doing that with the sar and bonzi offseason, when we were expected to be one of the top teams in the west. We need to fully rebuild but people would say we started that after we traded webber but i disagree. Teams like Orlando, Tor, bulls, alt and Portland rebuilded. They totally redid their whole roster, they traded their star players and role players and started from nothing and now have some what of a future. But we instead tryed to put a bandade on something that needed surgury. Instead of completely rebuilding after trading webber we just tryed to replace the old team with a cheap vision and we still refuse to rebuild today. We are acting like Minn, Phili, and Boston even thou we might not be as bad as these teams they too refuse to to fully rebuild after the glory days. If we stay the same i really think that we to will end up as minn, philiy and boston and just suck up as up and coming teams surpass us.

We remind me of the mid 90s Portland teams.

[AleksandarN]

I agree that there's not a better point guard out there that a team is going to realistically trade, so if the Kings are going to trade Bibby they'd have to accept a downgrade at that position to improve in other areas.

The only way I could see a Bibby trade were if the Kings got a guy like Earl Watson (who is the best defensive point guard in the league but doesn't bring anything close to Mike's ability on offense) or someone like Mo Williams (who at 23 looks like a more-athletic Bibby in the making), plus a big or a pick. But neither of those guys is a better individual player than Bibby, and the good-player-for-two-ok-players type of trade doesn't usually work.

Ultimately I think the Bibby situation is going to be resolved in the offseason. There really are four options: 1) he stays at his current salary and it's the status quo, 2) he gets a raise from the Kings (unlikely in my opinion), 3) a S&T or 4) he walks. #4 isn't the disaster it may seem, because when his salary comes off the books the Kings would actually have about $13 million in cap room to go after Chanucey Billups or Mo Williams, and if it's Mo Williams there might be some extra money to go after a big.

Kirk Hinrich?

[Bricklayer]

Mike Bibby for Earl Watson. Oh my.



If you're going to rebuild, to REALLY rebuild, age has to be a primary consideration, because you are aiming for a window 3-4 years down the line when you hope your youth will being to peak and you will power up into the ranks of the elite. Hence even guys in their prime now are often too old to be major pieces of what you hope is going to be the future. Not always -- when we did our insto rebuild in '99 we plugged a 30 yr old chainsmoker into the middle of it all to become a major piece. But for the most part. Hence this list become important:

Kings bdays from oldest to youngest:
12/04/73 (33) Williamson (Ending Contract)
03/21/75 (31) Potapenko (Ending Contract)
04/12/76 (30) Miller
10/30/76 (30) Taylor (Ending Contract)
12/11/76 (30*) Reef
07/25/77 (29) Thomas
-----------------
04/29/78 (28) Hart (Ending Contract)
05/13/78 (28) Bibby
11/13/79 (27) Artest
12/12/79 (27*) Salmons
-----------------
12/31/81 (24) Cisco
02/01/83 (23) Martin
06/21/83 (23) Price (Ending Contract)
05/16/84 (22) Douby

*with birthdays coming up within the week I advanced the age of Reef and Salmons

Anyway...look at that most interesting split. Everybody from age 29 on up is part of our frontcourt...also the worst part of our team. Everybody from 28 on down is a little guy (well, except when Cisco runs at PF :rolleyes: ). If age is any factor, and in a rebuild it obviously is, the the backcourt may already be considerably rebuilt. But the frontcourt...basically ALL of them may have to be cashiered for younger pieces. And better ones, or our "rebuild" will be a rebuild into mediocrity and a few years down the line we'll be at it again. I semi-arbitraily added lines of separation between the definite rebuild type guys (the recent draft picks) the grey area prime of career guys, and the frontcourt.

[BMiller52]

Mike Bibby for Earl Watson. Oh my.



If you're going to rebuild, to REALLY rebuild, age has to be a primary consideration, because you are aiming for a window 3-4 years down the line when you hope your youth will being to peak and you will power up into the ranks of the elite. Hence even guys in their prime now are often too old to be major pieces of what you hope is going to be the future. Not always -- when we did out insto rebuild in '99 we plugged a 30 yr odl chainsmoker into the middle of it all to become a major piece. But for the most part. Hence this list become important:

Kings bdays from oldest to youngest:
12/04/73 (33) Williamson
03/21/75 (31) Potapenko
04/12/76 (30) Miller
10/30/76 (30) Taylor
12/11/76 (30*) Reef
07/25/77 (29) Thomas
-----------------
04/29/78 (28) Hart
05/13/78 (28) Bibby
11/13/79 (27) Artest
12/12/79 (27*) Salmons
-----------------
12/31/81 (24) Cisco
02/01/83 (23) Martin
06/21/83 (23) Price
05/16/84 (22) Douby

*with birthdays coming up within the week I advanced the age of Reef and Salmons


I bolded the guys I'd really like us to keep and who I think can keep us competitive. The italicized guys are guys I'm not sure about yet, and I'd still deal them if we got a good offer. Really though if we were able to replace Bibby with a decent/young PG like maybe Jameer Nelson I don't think we'd fall off much, if at all. Not to say Mike isn't a better player, but I feel like the role he plays with the team=the role Nelson could play with the team. Basically I don't think he's a 1st option/2nd option.

I feel like Martin and maybe Ron are definitely our fixtures right now. Williamson is expiring, Bibby still has a lot of value, Reef is cheap and he's not exactly terrible yet, wonder what we could get for those guys and maybe Douby or Garcia.

edit: I guess in a quote form every thing is italicized. Basically I was saying I'd like to keep Miller, Garcia, Douby, and Price but they're not untouchable(then again neither is Salmons but I love his versatility).

[KingKong]

Fans can be so fickle. It would be extremely foolish to trade Bibby at this point unless you were getting a TRUE superstar in the process. Bibby is in his prime and if it weren't for his recent injuries he'd probably be playing like the Bibby we know. He's struggling right now but he'll be back in form soon; he's really the least of my worries. Our froncourt is a whole different story though.

[Bricklayer]

Always a question in a rebuild if you actually WANT to be competitive or not. Actually its not a question -- you really don't. A couple of top pciks could be the difference between a successful rebuild and eternal mediocrity.

In any case, with the ending contracts (which I went back and added) the 3 most oddball pieces are Brad, Reef and Kenny. And if in moving them you ended up in the lottery with a chance at a top young big, well oh darn. Bibby is a grey area, but young enough and good enough you could keep him. Of course also valuable enough as a trade piece that maybe you don't. And then of course of the remaining guys, the onyl three you know can contribute are Ron, Kevin and Salmons. The others are ? marks.

IF we were to truly rebuild (and we keep on hearing from our fromt office that they don't believe in winning champio...er....I mean they don't beleive in rebuilding), but IF we were to do so having a youngish near franchise guy in Ron and a top young talent in Kevin is actually a strong core to build around. Ron could, if sane, keep things afloat and organized. With Kevin in hand, along with Ron you need "only" find one young superstar or maybe two young mere "stars" to pop up as a toip team and stay there for a long time.

[BMiller52]

We already saw how Ron reacted after one blow out. If we rebuild like that-we will have many more and that is not good. So maybe you are saying trade Ron? I dunno I don't want to.

I think we could get some pieces for our guys. Young PG+something for Bibby maybe. Perkins+Scalabrine for SAR(Kendrick Perkins would compliment Brad really well and he's still really young). Maybe worth taking on a bad contract like Foyle, who could help us. What do you think of GSW 1st+Foyle for Corliss? Get some size and more shotblocking up front while getting a 1st rounder in a good draft.

So if we did that we'd have 2 1st round picks in a loaded draft, a young shotblocker, a young PG, some other pieces, all while keeping Ron, Martin, and Brad which I think will keep us competitive.

[Bricklayer]

Ata certian point you can't worry about Ron's reaction. Or rather you can worry about it, but not cater to it. A major key, and one that unfortunately King Stone Face over in the GMs office ain't great at, would be sitting down and talking to Ron about what you were trying to do and making him feel involved and invested. Tell him we know how much he likes to work with the kids, how much we value that, how much his leadership will mean, how much he can teach, and how much he will be the undisputed veteran leader of the squad as we rebuild.

In any case, that is how its done. The Pistons were a freakish one year blurb surrounded by Jordans, Duncans, Shaqs, Wades, maybe Dirks this year. Top super elite talents. If we can get one while Keeping Ron + Kevin (let alone Bibby) then briliant. If we can't, then Ron and Kevin aren't leading this team to a title on their own, and so we are again stuck. Reminds me of the Knicks in some ways -- because they always percieved their fans as shortsighted or impatient, they kept on making shortsighted and impatient moves. Never planning long term. I'm not so sure what is so bad about losing a little to win big in the end. Its my favorite tactic in virtually every sport/board game/computer game I've ever played. ;)

[Lamar_Odom]

I'd of course do that in a second, but I just can't see Orlando trading for Bibby when Nelson/Arroyo are playing so well.

The only teams that I can think of that would have a use for Bibby are Cleveland, Houston, Memphis, Lakers, Indiana and Atlanta. Everyone else seems to be pretty well set at the point guard position.

I don't think the Lakers have something to offer for Bibby. Not Farmar anyways who is a heady player, a true PG that the Lakers have so coveted for the longest time, knows and plays well within the concept of the triangle, a willing and able defender, can hit the outside shot, or drive to the hoop when the opportunity presents itself. He is no doubt the starting PG of the Lakers in the very near future. Other than Farmar, the Lakers don't have anyone to offer that would be of interest to the Kings. Plus, the Lakers preach defense too much, especially in the perimeter that it automatically disqualifies Bibby. I think they are happy with their group for now. Jackson doesn't like mid-season trades. It would almost be a miracle if the Lakers pull a trade during the regular season when things are actually going well for them. Any acquisition by the Lakers will be during the off season.

[Lamar_Odom]

for some reason i always thought that trading artest would make it easier to become conterders again than trading bibby...

The Kings may have to do with Artest for a while. Because of his history, I don't think many teams would want him. Maybe Miami but they don't have anyone who will be a viable trade for the Kings. I strongly doubt Thomas will trade Curry for him, it won't do the Knicks any good. Besides, bigs are a commodity, and Artest is far from being a big. Poor Thomas, even the most average fan thinks he's a fool, not saying Aries is average. I think he deserves a little more credit than that.

[BMiller52]

Uhhh dude Artest is 5 times the player Curry is(okay well not really, he does have 5 times as many skills though).

[nbrans]

I'm not so sure what is so bad about losing a little to win big in the end. Its my favorite tactic in virtually every sport/board game/computer game I've ever played. ;)

The problem is that there's no guarantee that once you've blown things up you're any better off than you were before. Look at the Bulls or Atlanta or Washington. Teams that have been kicking around in rebuilding mode for a really long time. Now, granted, those teams have made bad personnel moves, but I'd much rather hang around in the good-not-great range with quite a bit of talent (but maybe not enough talent) and hope for that last move or two that kicks the team into contending mode rather than tear everything down. Sure, you run the risk of being like the old Knicks, but you could also end up like the current Mavericks -- teams that hung around not being serious until they parlayed some of their talent into the pieces that work.

I still say it's better to keep the talent level as high as possible rather than blowing things up for the uncertainty of rebuilding. And the Kings could (emphasis on could) have their superelite Wade/Duncan player already on the roster. If Kevin keeps developing into a unique offensive talent then you've already found the type of player that teams go years in the lottery looking for. He's not done improving. And you already have his counterpart on defense in Artest. There's no guarantee whatsoever that he will become that type of player, but I'll take the odds of Kevin becoming a superstar over lucking into a good draft pick who pans out in a big way.

No big fan of Bibby am I, but now is not the time to trade him, and it's not the time to blow things up. If you would have told me that the Kings would be 8-7 with Bibby shooting 36%, Artest shooting 38% and Miller shooting 28% I would have told you you're crazy. If those guys start shooting like they can this team is going to be very tough to beat.

[Warhawk]

No big fan of Bibby am I, but now is not the time to trade him, and it's not the time to blow things up. If you would have told me that the Kings would be 9-8 with Bibby shooting 36%, Artest shooting 38% and Miller shooting 28% I would have told you you're crazy. If those guys start shooting like they can this team is going to be very tough to beat.

Not just that, he's not even played in most of the games....

[Troy]

The problem is that there's no guarantee that once you've blown things up you're any better off than you were before. Look at the Bulls or Atlanta or Washington. Teams that have been kicking around in rebuilding mode for a really long time. Now, granted, those teams have made bad personnel moves, but I'd much rather hang around in the good-not-great range with quite a bit of talent (but maybe not enough talent) and hope for that last move or two that kicks the team into contending mode rather than tear everything down. Sure, you run the risk of being like the old Knicks, but you could also end up like the current Mavericks -- teams that hung around not being serious until they parlayed some of their talent into the pieces that work.

I still say it's better to keep the talent level as high as possible rather than blowing things up for the uncertainty of rebuilding. And the Kings could (emphasis on could) have their superelite Wade/Duncan player already on the roster. If Kevin keeps developing into a unique offensive talent then you've already found the type of player that teams go years in the lottery looking for. He's not done improving. And you already have his counterpart on defense in Artest. There's no guarantee whatsoever that he will become that type of player, but I'll take the odds of Kevin becoming a superstar over lucking into a good draft pick who pans out in a big way.

No big fan of Bibby am I, but now is not the time to trade him, and it's not the time to blow things up. If you would have told me that the Kings would be 8-7 with Bibby shooting 36%, Artest shooting 38% and Miller shooting 28% I would have told you you're crazy. If those guys start shooting like they can this team is going to be very tough to beat.


Bibby & Miller are mid career with crossroads. We have the future in Artest, KMart, maybe also Price & Salmons, but we don't develop young bigs which is a problem. Why we let Justin Williams walk is beyond me. I know he isn't an All Star, yet or may never be, but he did show good potential, why not keep him around and use him when we desperately need size and he is a minimum wage guy. Heck if we could legally do it, he's probably take $30K in this stage in his life out of college...I much rather eat Taylor's $1M deal. We need the shot blocking, rebounding, and enthusiam that a young guy like Justin would bring.

We aren't as old as I thought. We do need some help at 4/5 and to deepen our bench otherwise we are fine, we could use some more shooting which hopefully Douby and Price will bring. Salmons has turned into a good move and I like the guy's Defense and calming effect and how unselfish he is. He does great guarding the harder guys like Parker, Josh Howard etc. You truely cannot totally contain a Parker or Kobie, but the guy does a great job and when matched up with Artest and Cisco, KMart, K9 we have a great 6'7" group of scrappy defenders playing small ball, then Brad can rise to the occasion as he is capable of and we can stop a team dead in it's offensive tracks and have our own rally.

[Bricklayer]

The problem is that there's no guarantee that once you've blown things up you're any better off than you were before. Look at the Bulls or Atlanta or Washington.

I ahte to do the split response thing but:

All bad examples for various reasons, but also demonstrating that yes, rebuilding is not 100% guaranteed. If it was there would be absolutely NO question its what you should do. But the very uncertaintly there leads to the inherent cowardice of chickening out and settling for mediocrity. In any case we are not in the same position as any of those teams, because if you are talking about rebuilding around Ron + Kevin and maybe even Bibby, the cupboard isn't bare. The Bulls and Atlanta started over from absolute scratch. They needed to get Ron and Kevin and Mike first to even achieve our current level of mediocrity, and then go on and get more pieces to go forward. Not sure exactly when/what you are saying the Wizards are rebuilding from, because they never had anything in the first place. One of those teams that hasn't been a factor since the 70's.

Sure, you run the risk of being like the old Knicks, but you could also end up like the current Mavericks -- teams that hung around not being serious until they parlayed some of their talent into the pieces that work.

You keep on doing that thing with the Mavs where you seem to be drawing some "rebuilding" line on them happening 2 years ago in the midst of 50+ win season after 50+ win season. But the truth is the Mavs are a contender because of a man they picked up in the lottery while they were terrible (Dirk), just like almost everybody else. They've been in the mix ever since. Their rebuilding was in the 90's. At best they just retooled a couple of years back. No Dirk = no contention. No lottery = no Dirk.


I still say it's better to keep the talent level as high as possible rather than blowing things up for the uncertainty of rebuilding. And the Kings could (emphasis on could) have their superelite Wade/Duncan player already on the roster. If Kevin keeps developing into a unique offensive talent then you've already found the type of player that teams go years in the lottery looking for. He's not done improving. And you already have his counterpart on defense in Artest. There's no guarantee whatsoever that he will become that type of player, but I'll take the odds of Kevin becoming a superstar over lucking into a good draft pick who pans out in a big way.


This being I thnk the essential problem you are coming from: overawed by Kevin. Watch his game. Its remarkable. But watch it for what its not too. Watch to see how much he creates, or doesn't. Kevin scores, Ron defends, but we stilll need the straw. And in any case that doesn't matter to a large degree because the suggestions above do not involve getting rid of Kevin. You get rid of Kevin to land KG in the "contedn now" approach. But if you're rebuilding Kevin is clearly one of the pieces you keep. And so if he is superstar material, then that's grand. But now you go fishing for a SECOND one, and you are talking title. Maybe lots of them. And you have a fallback plan if maybe just maybe Kevin is just a scorer.


No big fan of Bibby am I, but now is not the time to trade him, and it's not the time to blow things up. If you would have told me that the Kings would be 8-7 with Bibby shooting 36%, Artest shooting 38% and Miller shooting 28% I would have told you you're crazy. If those guys start shooting like they can this team is going to be very tough to beat.

Or Kevin could come back to Earth, Ron could quit rebounding, one of them or Bibby could sit out for a while with injury, and we could go the other way. Evry fan of every team always has an ideal scenario where their team is tough to beat. And maybe it happens. But maybe not. Now I didn't start this thread, nor if you reread did I say we necessarily had to start the rebuild today, as opposed to a few months from now after we know for sure we're a .500 team. But since this IS a rebuilding thread, not a "we shouldn't rebuild" thread, I merely chipped in on how it could be done. Keep Kevin and Ron, trade Mike, Brad, SAR and KT for youth, enders and picks -- preferably from this draft where possible. Head into the lottery this year with our own pick, maybe get 2 more picks from other teams. Possibly be able to use 2 of those picks to be able to move up a few more spots in the draft to get a guy we really wanted. Add a free agent. Maybe a real one rather than just a midlevel if we get the right enders. Go into next season with (just for example) something like this as the team:

Ron
Kevin
Salmons
#7 pick in the draft (a big)
good free agent
#19 pick in draft
kid picked up via trade
kid picked up via trade
Cisco
Douby
Price (if we want him back)
middling free agent
-- maybe any leftover contract guys

Then if you are lucky, that team is too young to really be ready to compete in teh West, so you hit the lottery for a second year, let's say with the #10 pick, maybe you've got one more pick still trickling in from somebody else in the trades, there's another MLE, you reup Ron and Kevin and try to rise like the phoenix. That's even without getting really lucky in the lottery.

[VF21]

Ata certian point you can't worry about Ron's reaction. Or rather you can worry about it, but not cater to it.

Agreed.

You cannot let the inmates be in charge of the asylum (pun somewhat intended). You can talk to Ron but you CANNOT allow him or any other player dictate how the team will be run. Even Michael Jordan listened to Phil Jackson...

[nbrans]

You keep on doing that thing with the Mavs where you seem to be drawing some "rebuilding" line on them happening 2 years ago in the midst of 50+ win season after 50+ win season. But the truth is the Mavs are a contender because of a man they picked up in the lottery while they were terrible (Dirk), just like almost everybody else. They've been in the mix ever since. Their rebuilding was in the 90's. At best they just retooled a couple of years back. No Dirk = no contention. No lottery = no Dirk.

This being I thnk the essential problem you are coming from: overawed by Kevin. Watch his game. Its remarkable. But watch it for what its not too. Watch to see how much he creates, or doesn't. Kevin scores, Ron defends, but we stilll need the straw. And in any case that doesn't matter to a large degree because the suggestions above do not involve getting rid of Kevin. You get rid of Kevin to land KG in the "contedn now" approach. But if you're rebuilding Kevin is clearly one of the pieces you keep. And so if he is superstar material, then that's grand. But now you go fishing for a SECOND one, and you are talking title. Maybe lots of them. And you have a fallback plan if maybe just maybe Kevin is just a scorer.

I do think Dallas is relevant, because let's just say, hypothetically speaking, Kevin takes it up one more notch and next year becomes a 30 ppg scorer who can create his own shot. Given how he is playing right now and the potential he shows, I don't think that is out of the realm of possibility -- maybe a reach, but possible. It's certainly better odds than taking a dive, hoping for a high pick, hoping a good player falls to you, hoping that player isn't a bust, hoping that player develops into star, etc. etc. etc. Then, if you strike out in that draft, you wait for the next draft, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. I'll take Kevin, thank you.

If Kevin does make the leap, the Kings could already have their Dirk, and a fantastic sidekick in Artest. So the comparison to the Dallas of two years ago is valid, in my opinion. A team that's good but still adding around the edges, with a player who is still improving. (People point to the roster changes and Avery, but the Mavs weren't true contenders until Dirk improved his defense and developed some go-to moves.) Then it's a matter of some changes around the edges (interior presence, obviously) and the Kings could be much closer to a serious team. Two superstars, one a killer on offense one a killer on defense, surrounded by some other talented players.

So I don't think it makes sense, yet, to start over, unless you want to waste Ron's prime and Kevin's possible emergence on a highly uncertain rebuilding project. Your plan of trading everyone on the roster for expiring contracts and picks (while not even realistic to begin with -- no one is giving away picks in this draft, nor are they jumping at offering expirings for guys like Kenny) puts the Kings at least two three years from even being serious again, two or three years of Ron's prime wasted. Not to mention the risk to Ron's sanity to be on a losing team.

I'm not saying Kevin WILL become a superstar, and yeah, he could come back to earth. I just think you might have an unrealistic view of the rebuilding process, something that is a total crapshoot with uncertain success. Teams go to the lottery in order to luck into someone like Kevin. Sure, the Kings can double down and go for another Kevin at a different position, but there are other ways of landing talent.

Now, trades to get the Kings inside presence and possibly a more defensive minded point guard? Sure, if it's the right trade. I can talk myself into Mo Williams and Darko if you let Bibby walk. But taking an a-bomb to the roster just doesn't make sense to me, unless you want to trade Ron as well or watch him implode. Better to be patient, see what you have in Kevin, keep adding through free agency, and address trades on a case by case basis.

[Bricklayer]

Some meat on the bones BTW:

Here are some suppositions: 1) look East, because right now in the East basically everybody is thinking they can be a factor; 2) look to the Atlantic division, because everybody there is thinking they are 1 move from being the division winner and a Top 4 seed with a chance at the second round.

So jsut for example:

Bibby to Boston
-- the veteran help Pierce has been looking for, and along with Pierce and Wally likely enough to take the Atlantic
-- potential targets for return, Delonte West, Al Jefferson, a pick, Theo Ratliff and his bigass contract (ender after next year)

Brad to Washington
-- Eddie Jordan wants to run Princeton type stuff, here's his guy, and here's a way for them to break up the brawling center duo they have
-- potential targets for return, Etan Thomas (like his hustle and muscle more than Haywood's size + 'tude, but they may prefer to unload the pouty big) Jarvis Hayes (to balance salaries, + ender if we don't offer a qualifying bid), + a pick. Could also inquire about Andray Blatche I suppose. Calvin Booth is also an ender I think.

Kenny to New Jersey
-- its well known they are once again looking for another big to shore up their pathetic frontline. In a rebuild, they can have ours for free + he might even do well there in a running game
-- potential targets fro return, Jeff McInnis and Miki Moore, both enders. Waive McInnis probably, might keep Moore just as some size. Ideally a pcik as wel, althouigh that's unlikely. But maybe a second, or secure the right to swap first rounders picks, or get one with some hefty protections on it? At the very least get the cap room.

SAR to Chicago
-- they clearly need an inside scorer, and the PJ Brown move has been disastrous -- think they wouldn;t like to have Chandler back about now?
-- potential targets fro return -- myriad, but difficult. They've got lots of youth, but maybe all too expensive. They've got a super rook (Thoams) who almost surely is off limits. They've got a great draft pick coming from the Knicks, which is probably alos off limits.. But maybe some of their second tier stuff? The Duhons, Sefalossas, and their own pick this year? Would they accept Duhon, Malik Allen (ender) and their own lottery protected #1 this year? Something. Skiles doesn;t like Sweetney, could get him too, but the same reason Skiles doens.t like him (weight) woudl likely keep him off the floor for Muss too.

[Bricklayer]

I do think Dallas is relevant, because let's just say, hypothetically speaking, Kevin takes it up one more notch and next year becomes a 30 ppg scorer who can create his own shot. Given how he is playing right now and the potential he shows, I don't think that is out of the realm of possibility -- maybe a reach, but possible. It's certainly better odds than taking a dive, hoping for a high pick, hoping a good player falls to you, hoping that player isn't a bust, hoping that player develops into star, etc. etc. etc. Then, if you strike out in that draft, you wait for the next draft, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. I'll take Kevin, thank you.

If Kevin does make the leap, the Kings could already have their Dirk, and a fantastic sidekick in Artest. So the comparison to the Dallas of two years ago is valid, in my opinion. A team that's good but still adding around the edges, with a player who is still improving. (People point to the roster changes and Avery, but the Mavs weren't true contenders until Dirk improved his defense and developed some go-to moves.) Then it's a matter of some changes around the edges (interior presence, obviously) and the Kings could be much closer to a serious team. Two superstars, one a killer on offense one a killer on defense, surrounded by some other talented players.

So I don't think it makes sense, yet, to start over, unless you want to waste Ron's prime and Kevin's possible emergence on a highly uncertain rebuilding project. Your plan of trading everyone on the roster for expiring contracts and picks (while not even realistic to begin with -- no one is giving away picks in this draft, nor are they jumping at offering expirings for guys like Kenny) puts the Kings at least two three years from even being serious again, two or three years of Ron's prime wasted. Not to mention the risk to Ron's sanity to be on a losing team.

I'm not saying Kevin WILL become a superstar, and yeah, he could come back to earth. I just think you might have an unrealistic view of the rebuilding process, something that is a total crapshoot with uncertain success. Teams go to the lottery in order to luck into someone like Kevin. Sure, the Kings can double down and go for another Kevin at a different position, but there are other ways of landing talent.

Now, trades to get the Kings inside presence and possibly a more defensive minded point guard? Sure, if it's the right trade. I can talk myself into Mo Williams and Darko if you let Bibby walk. But taking an a-bomb to the roster just doesn't make sense to me, unless you want to trade Ron as well or watch him implode. Better to be patient, see what you have in Kevin, keep adding through free agency, and address trades on a case by case basis.


And see, now we are just off into soemthing approaching lala land with Kevin, waiting for him to become a HOFer as our rebuilding plan? That's it? And of course he will or will not regardless of whether we try to dive into the lottery to get him some young running mates.

Meanwhile Ron has plenty of prime left -- just turned 27.

Now is the time. Either Geoff is a good judge of talent or he's not. If not...well, let's fire him. If he is, well, let's get him a load of picks and let him fire away, in particular in a can't miss draft.

[Smills91]

Mike Bibby for Earl Watson. Oh my.



If you're going to rebuild, to REALLY rebuild, age has to be a primary consideration, because you are aiming for a window 3-4 years down the line when you hope your youth will being to peak and you will power up into the ranks of the elite. Hence even guys in their prime now are often too old to be major pieces of what you hope is going to be the future. Not always -- when we did our insto rebuild in '99 we plugged a 30 yr old chainsmoker into the middle of it all to become a major piece. But for the most part. Hence this list become important:

Kings bdays from oldest to youngest:
12/04/73 (33) Williamson (Ending Contract)
03/21/75 (31) Potapenko (Ending Contract)
04/12/76 (30) Miller
10/30/76 (30) Taylor (Ending Contract)
12/11/76 (30*) Reef
07/25/77 (29) Thomas
-----------------
04/29/78 (28) Hart (Ending Contract)
05/13/78 (28) Bibby
11/13/79 (27) Artest
12/12/79 (27*) Salmons
-----------------
12/31/81 (24) Cisco
02/01/83 (23) Martin
06/21/83 (23) Price (Ending Contract)
05/16/84 (22) Douby

*with birthdays coming up within the week I advanced the age of Reef and Salmons

Anyway...look at that most interesting split. Everybody from age 29 on up is part of our frontcourt...also the worst part of our team. Everybody from 28 on down is a little guy (well, except when Cisco runs at PF :rolleyes: ). If age is any factor, and in a rebuild it obviously is, the the backcourt may already be considerably rebuilt. But the frontcourt...basically ALL of them may have to be cashiered for younger pieces. And better ones, or our "rebuild" will be a rebuild into mediocrity and a few years down the line we'll be at it again. I semi-arbitraily added lines of separation between the definite rebuild type guys (the recent draft picks) the grey area prime of career guys, and the frontcourt.

This is a nice breakdown. I like it.

If I had to throw out a couple trades to rebuld the Kings through trades(Which is generally how Petrie does it) This is what I would suggest.

Trade 1:

Kings deal:
Brad Miller
Kenny Thomas
Jason Hart

Celtics Deal:
Delonte West
Kendrick Perkins
Theo Ratliff
Brian Scalabrine
Top 10 protected 1st rounder?

Kings new roster after this deal:

C: Kendrick Perkins, Theo Ratliff, Vitaly Potapenko
PF: Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Maurice Taylor, Brian Scalabrine
SF: Ron Artest, Francisco Garcia, Corliss Williamson
SG: Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Quincy Douby
PG: Mike Bibby, Delonte West, Ronnie Price

Then Trade 2:

Kings deal:
Mike Bibby
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Corliss Williamson
Celtics pick

Grizzlies deal:
Pau Gasol
Brian Cardinal
Damon Stoudamire

Kings new roster:

C: Kendrick Perkins, Theo Ratliff, Vitaly Potapenko
PF: Pau Gasol, Maurice Taylor, Brian Cardinal
SF: Ron Artest, Francisco Garcia, Brian Scalabrine
SG: Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Quincy Douby
PG: Delonte West, Damon Stoudamire, Ronnie Price

Now our team is younger, more defensive minded(with plenty of offense and we have lots of cap flexibility with the 13 million of theo's deal coming off the books after next season to try and add a free agent. The draft will continue to help up build the right pieces around the young core of:

Martin -23
Gasol -27
Artest -27
West - 24
Garcia -24
Price -23
Douby -22

FA and the Draft could potentially make a veyr strong team in the West for years to come.

[nbrans]

And see, now we are just off into soemthing approaching lala land with Kevin, waiting for him to become a HOFer as our rebuilding plan? That's it? And of course he will or will not regardless of whether we try to dive into the lottery to get him some young running mates.

Meanwhile Ron has plenty of prime left -- just turned 27.

Now is the time. Either Geoff is a good judge of talent or he's not. If not...well, let's fire him. If he is, well, let's get him a load of picks and let him fire away, in particular in a can't miss draft.

What's more realistic:

1) hoping that Kevin makes one more step up that he seems well within the realm of possibility and steadily building around him and Ron while Ron is in his prime?

or

2) blowing up the roster, hoping the Kings get a lottery pick (even though no one is trading picks this year), hoping that a great player falls to the Kings, hoping that player develops into a superstar, all the while hoping Ron stays sane on a losing team and hoping that you can somehow rebuild all the talent you gave up while you were hoping.

#2 is a lot of hope, and I'd say it's much closer to la la land.

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What's more realistic:

1) hoping that Kevin makes one more step up that he seems well within the realm of possibility and steadily building around him and Ron while Ron is in his prime?

or

2) blowing up the roster, hoping the Kings get a lottery pick (even though no one is trading picks this year), hoping that a great player falls to the Kings, hoping that player develops into a superstar, all the while hoping Ron stays sane on a losing team and hoping that you can somehow rebuild all the talent you gave up while you were hoping.

#2 is a lot of hope, and I'd say it's much closer to la la land.Kevin Martin is more than one step away from becoming a superstar. And the Kings are more than a "Super Martin" away from being a title contender.

So, I opt for two: I'm not all that enamored of anyone on the team right now, anyway.

[LPKingsFan]

Some meat on the bones BTW:

Here are some suppositions: 1) look East, because right now in the East basically everybody is thinking they can be a factor; 2) look to the Atlantic division, because everybody there is thinking they are 1 move from being the division winner and a Top 4 seed with a chance at the second round.

So jsut for example:

Bibby to Boston
-- the veteran help Pierce has been looking for, and along with Pierce and Wally likely enough to take the Atlantic
-- potential targets for return, Delonte West, Al Jefferson, a pick, Theo Ratliff and his bigass contract (ender after next year)

Brad to Washington
-- Eddie Jordan wants to run Princeton type stuff, here's his guy, and here's a way for them to break up the brawling center duo they have
-- potential targets for return, Etan Thomas (like his hustle and muscle more than Haywood's size + 'tude, but they may prefer to unload the pouty big) Jarvis Hayes (to balance salaries, + ender if we don't offer a qualifying bid), + a pick. Could also inquire about Andray Blatche I suppose. Calvin Booth is also an ender I think.

Kenny to New Jersey
-- its well known they are once again looking for another big to shore up their pathetic frontline. In a rebuild, they can have ours for free + he might even do well there in a running game
-- potential targets fro return, Jeff McInnis and Miki Moore, both enders. Waive McInnis probably, might keep Moore just as some size. Ideally a pcik as wel, althouigh that's unlikely. But maybe a second, or secure the right to swap first rounders picks, or get one with some hefty protections on it? At the very least get the cap room.

SAR to Chicago
-- they clearly need an inside scorer, and the PJ Brown move has been disastrous -- think they wouldn;t like to have Chandler back about now?
-- potential targets fro return -- myriad, but difficult. They've got lots of youth, but maybe all too expensive. They've got a super rook (Thoams) who almost surely is off limits. They've got a great draft pick coming from the Knicks, which is probably alos off limits.. But maybe some of their second tier stuff? The Duhons, Sefalossas, and their own pick this year? Would they accept Duhon, Malik Allen (ender) and their own lottery protected #1 this year? Something. Skiles doesn;t like Sweetney, could get him too, but the same reason Skiles doens.t like him (weight) woudl likely keep him off the floor for Muss too.

Playing the DePodesta to Brick's Beane:

Trade #1 (Sac/Bos)
Bibby for Ratliff, West, pick

Trade #2 (Sac/Wash)
Miller for Haywood, Hayes, Ruffin, pick

Trade #3 (Sac/NJ)
KT, Taylor for McInnis, House, and Moore (plus cash)

Trade #4 (Sac/Chi)
SAR for Duhon, Sefolosha

Say the draft plays out like this:
Boston's pick: #4 (Joakim Noah PF/C)
Washington's pick: #7 (Branden Wright, PF)
Sac's pick (after taking a hit post-trade deadline): #13 (Josh McRoberts, PF)

Then use cap space to sign Magloire?

Then you're left with an 07-08 squad of:
C: Magloire ($7mil), Haywood ($5 mil), Ratliff ($11.6 mil expiring)
PF: Noah, Wright, McRoberts (all rookie deals at about $4 mil each)
SF: Artest ($8 mil), Garcia ($1 mil) , Sefolosha ($2mil)
SG: Martin ($2mil), Salmons ($5 mil)
PG: West ($2mil), Duhon ($3mil), Price ($1mil)

Sitting at about $60 million with at least 11 coming off the cap the next year. Not bad.

[nbrans]

Then you're left with an 07-08 squad of:
C: Magloire ($7mil), Haywood ($5 mil), Ratliff ($11.6 mil expiring)
PF: Noah, Wright, McRoberts (all rookie deals at about $4 mil each)
SF: Artest ($8 mil), Garcia ($1 mil) , Sefolosha ($2mil)
SG: Martin ($2mil), Salmons ($5 mil)
PG: West ($2mil), Duhon ($3mil), Price ($1mil)

Sitting at about $60 million with at least 11 coming off the cap the next year. Not bad.

Even if the other teams would dare part with their picks in this draft, which is exceedingly unlikely in my opinion, do you really think this is a better team than the one we have? West is a homeless man's Bibby, Magloire is washed up and inferior to Miller, and Noah, while an impressive college player whose game may or may not translate to the pros, leaves you with a completely offense-less front line (not working out so well for the Bulls). You're basically taking a big step back at PG and C in order to get Noah, who is hardly a sure thing.

I don't love the Kings roster as it stands right now, but I don't see this as a way forward.

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Even if the other teams would dare part with their picks in this draft, which is exceedingly unlikely in my opinion, do you really think this is a better team than the one we have? West is a homeless man's Bibby, Magloire is washed up and inferior to Miller, and Noah, while an impressive college player whose game may or may not translate to the pros, leaves you with a completely offense-less front line (not working out so well for the Bulls). You're basically taking a big step back at PG and C in order to get Noah, who is hardly a sure thing.

I don't love the Kings roster as it stands right now, but I don't see this as a way forward.West is actually more like a homeless man's Kidd; he's a five-tool player, whereas Bibby is pretty much a one-tool player.

I'd probably take Bibby over West ten times out of ten, but their games are nothing alike.

[Bricklayer]

Even if the other teams would dare part with their picks in this draft, which is exceedingly unlikely in my opinion, do you really think this is a better team than the one we have? West is a homeless man's Bibby, Magloire is washed up and inferior to Miller, and Noah, while an impressive college player whose game may or may not translate to the pros, leaves you with a completely offense-less front line (not working out so well for the Bulls). You're basically taking a big step back at PG and C in order to get Noah, who is hardly a sure thing.

I don't love the Kings roster as it stands right now, but I don't see this as a way forward.

Oh no, LP tripled the fun with not only Noah, but Wright and McRoberts as well. Which would be droolworthy given that they are compared to Chandler, KG and Webb respectively. Be hard to miss on all three. Hit 2 of the 3 and you are golden. And golden for a lot of years too.

[BawLa]

Kings bdays from oldest to youngest:
12/04/73 (33) Williamson (Ending Contract)
03/21/75 (31) Potapenko (Ending Contract)
04/12/76 (30) Miller
10/30/76 (30) Taylor (Ending Contract)
12/11/76 (30*) Reef
07/25/77 (29) Thomas
-----------------
04/29/78 (28) Hart (Ending Contract)
05/13/78 (28) Bibby
11/13/79 (27) Artest
12/12/79 (27*) Salmons
-----------------
12/31/81 (24) Cisco
02/01/83 (23) Martin
06/21/83 (23) Price (Ending Contract)
05/16/84 (22) Douby





Geoff should buy an expensive bordeaux and sit down with Kevin McHale and talk to him. During this conversation Geoff should convince K-M that KG needs to be broken down into expiring contracts so that the T-Wolves can rebuild the right way instead of trying to find the pieces to put around an aging KG. At this point McHale has failed with KG and needs to let the big guy go and start over. They tank the rest of the season, leading to a high draft pick, and they have expiring contracts to make some splashes in the free agent market. Meanwhile we get the piece that we so desperately need, and KG gets the change of scenery that he needs.

Sounds do-able right?






Sacramento Kings

Incoming Players:

Bracey Wright
Salary: $664,209 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 0.0 REB: 0.0 AST: 0.0 PER: 0.00
Kevin Garnett
Salary: $21,000,000 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 21.1 REB: 11.9 AST: 3.6 PER: 25.55

Outgoing Players: Vitaly Potapenko, Brad Miller, Jason Hart, Corliss Williamson


Minnesota Timberwolves

Incoming Players:

Vitaly Potapenko
Salary: $3,674,584 Years Remaining: 1
Brad Miller
Salary: $9,625,000 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 5.3 REB: 6.7 AST: 2.1 PER: 8.21
Jason Hart
Salary: $1,680,000 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 5.3 REB: 0.8 AST: 0.3 PER: 20.05
Corliss Williamson
Salary: $6,500,000 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 7.2 REB: 2.9 AST: 0.6 PER: 11.21

Outgoing Players: Bracey Wright, Kevin Garnett

[hearns]

Some meat on the bones BTW:

Here are some suppositions: 1) look East, because right now in the East basically everybody is thinking they can be a factor; 2) look to the Atlantic division, because everybody there is thinking they are 1 move from being the division winner and a Top 4 seed with a chance at the second round.

So jsut for example:

Bibby to Boston
-- the veteran help Pierce has been looking for, and along with Pierce and Wally likely enough to take the Atlantic
-- potential targets for return, Delonte West, Al Jefferson, a pick, Theo Ratliff and his bigass contract (ender after next year)

Brad to Washington
-- Eddie Jordan wants to run Princeton type stuff, here's his guy, and here's a way for them to break up the brawling center duo they have
-- potential targets for return, Etan Thomas (like his hustle and muscle more than Haywood's size + 'tude, but they may prefer to unload the pouty big) Jarvis Hayes (to balance salaries, + ender if we don't offer a qualifying bid), + a pick. Could also inquire about Andray Blatche I suppose. Calvin Booth is also an ender I think.

Kenny to New Jersey
-- its well known they are once again looking for another big to shore up their pathetic frontline. In a rebuild, they can have ours for free + he might even do well there in a running game
-- potential targets fro return, Jeff McInnis and Miki Moore, both enders. Waive McInnis probably, might keep Moore just as some size. Ideally a pcik as wel, althouigh that's unlikely. But maybe a second, or secure the right to swap first rounders picks, or get one with some hefty protections on it? At the very least get the cap room.

SAR to Chicago
-- they clearly need an inside scorer, and the PJ Brown move has been disastrous -- think they wouldn;t like to have Chandler back about now?
-- potential targets fro return -- myriad, but difficult. They've got lots of youth, but maybe all too expensive. They've got a super rook (Thoams) who almost surely is off limits. They've got a great draft pick coming from the Knicks, which is probably alos off limits.. But maybe some of their second tier stuff? The Duhons, Sefalossas, and their own pick this year? Would they accept Duhon, Malik Allen (ender) and their own lottery protected #1 this year? Something. Skiles doesn;t like Sweetney, could get him too, but the same reason Skiles doens.t like him (weight) woudl likely keep him off the floor for Muss too.
Another real possibility:

Brad Miller to Orlando for Milicic+ Dooling/Ariza/Garrity.
Miller with Howard would be a very good frontcourt, with the passing and mid range shoots of Miller and the rebounds, dunks and blocks of Howard.

[nbrans]

Oh no, LP tripled the fun with not only Noah, but Wright and McRoberts as well. Which would be droolworthy given that they are compared to Chandler, KG and Webb respectively. Be hard to miss on all three. Hit 2 of the 3 and you are golden. And golden for a lot of years too.


Yeah, I kind of ignored the others due to the unrealistic idea of getting three first round picks in the next draft (especially since in this scenario Boston is apparently giving us a high first round pick for a half season of Bibby), plus there's unliklihood of them even being available at the given draft slots.

Also, Joakim might be like Chandler (that's not exactly a high bar), but Brandan Wright is to KG what Tony Battie is to Shaq, and Josh McRoberts is to CWebb as Harold Miner is to Michael Jordan.

[KMart23]

Geoff should buy an expensive bordeaux and sit down with Kevin McHale and talk to him. During this conversation Geoff should convince K-M that KG needs to be broken down into expiring contracts so that the T-Wolves can rebuild the right way instead of trying to find the pieces to put around an aging KG. At this point McHale has failed with KG and needs to let the big guy go and start over. They tank the rest of the season, leading to a high draft pick, and they have expiring contracts to make some splashes in the free agent market. Meanwhile we get the piece that we so desperately need, and KG gets the change of scenery that he needs.

Sounds do-able right?

Sacramento Kings

Incoming Players:

Bracey Wright
Salary: $664,209 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 0.0 REB: 0.0 AST: 0.0 PER: 0.00
Kevin Garnett
Salary: $21,000,000 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 21.1 REB: 11.9 AST: 3.6 PER: 25.55

Outgoing Players: Vitaly Potapenko, Brad Miller, Jason Hart, Corliss Williamson


Minnesota Timberwolves

Incoming Players:

Vitaly Potapenko
Salary: $3,674,584 Years Remaining: 1
Brad Miller
Salary: $9,625,000 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 5.3 REB: 6.7 AST: 2.1 PER: 8.21
Jason Hart
Salary: $1,680,000 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 5.3 REB: 0.8 AST: 0.3 PER: 20.05
Corliss Williamson
Salary: $6,500,000 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 7.2 REB: 2.9 AST: 0.6 PER: 11.21

Outgoing Players: Bracey Wright, Kevin Garnett


HELL NO Mchale is going to do that trade. you think we are the only ones w/ expirings? we didn't even include a draft pick in that trade. lets get real ppl, garnett isn't going just for table scraps. :rolleyes:

Another real possibility:

Brad Miller to Orlando for Milicic+ Dooling/Ariza/Garrity.
Miller with Howard would be a very good frontcourt, with the passing and mid range shoots of Miller and the rebounds, dunks and blocks of Howard.

wow, talk about a stretch. why would they trade a young big that has similar skills for a player 10 yrs older that is getting close to the end of his career.

[nbrans]

wow, talk about a stretch. why would they trade a young big that has similar skills for a player 10 yrs older that is getting close to the end of his career.

Not to mention that this would kill Orlando's cap at a time when they will either extend Darko to a big deal or go after Vince Carter. I think it may be a bigger stretch than the KG proposal.

[fnordius]

West is actually more like a homeless man's Kidd; he's a five-tool player, whereas Bibby is pretty much a one-tool player.

I'd probably take Bibby over West ten times out of ten, but their games are nothing alike.

Agreed... to take perhaps the most obvious example, West makes 7 times as many blocks per 48 minutes as Bibby (roughly 1.0 as opposed to 0.15), more than any other PG in the NBA. West is as anomalous among PGs as Brad Miller is among Cs, and while "homeless man's Kidd" is close, there's really nobody else quite like him.

[LA King Fan II]

In response to the thread title.

IMO it is time to blow up the team. Not gonna make the playoffs - might not even come close.

Artest and Martin should not be off limits. In fact I think it's now or never with Ron. He is a talented basketball player. He plays with great heart. He cannot be controlled by our current coach, and that is not going to change. He sees his value in ways that simply aren't so (i.e. taking all shots in the 4th quarter) and I sincerely think he has a deficiency in reasoning. He's lovable. I respect his talent, but he's unstable and he's not going to be a team's best player and lead them to a title.

He could bring back the most for the future for the team. Martin has had a great year, but his stock is perhaps a bit inflated and could help much more than anyone else in rebuilding a real team. It's a shame, but this team is a great deal inferior to the top teams. I Blame it still, on Horry.