Trade Brad Miller

[Rome]

well looking at Brad miller over the years I can tell you he isnt playoff material. Not to mention he can't rebound or block shots or play a lick of defense.

He displayed his horrible defense in the 2005 playoffs by allowing Jerome James average 18 ppg.

I think we have to move on and get a real center willing to do the stuff a center does...

Place all the ideas of who and what we can get for Brad Miller in this thread.

[thesanityannex]

Surprised the Miller fans haven't ripped you yet. Maybe they are feeling the same way.


Miller's offense is more than decent, but his defense is non-existent, along with his rebounding. I think having two soft power forwards complimenting him just magnifies his weaknesses. The Kings have plenty of scorers, either Miller or SAR/Thomas need to go for someone with a set of defensive minded balls.

[6th]

I'm a Miller fan, and a Bibby fan, and an Artest fan, and...and...and... You get the message. We are in the playoffs. Lay off the player bashing. Then say what you want to say after everyone has gone fishing. :rolleyes:

[thesanityannex]

I didn't realize there was a time guideline to criticize players:rolleyes:

[Rome]

I'm a Miller fan, and a Bibby fan, and an Artest fan, and...and...and... You get the message. We are in the playoffs. Lay off the player bashing. Then say what you want to say after everyone has gone fishing. :rolleyes:

this isn't BibbyFans.com or MillerFans.com Its kingsfans.com and if you call this player bashing then you might wanna rethink about that.

This is a fair post and I think we've given Miller enough time. He has not done anything in the playoffs except ruin our hopes of winning by playing no defense or rebounding. This thread is for people to post trade ideas of who we can get for Big Brad.

[thesanityannex]

This thread is for people to post trade ideas of who we can get for Big Brad.I'll give you two cans of Copenhagen, a duck blind, and a Remington 12 gauge for your Brad Miller.

[Rome]

I'll give you two cans of Copenhagen, a duck blind, and a Remington 12 gauge for your Brad Miller.

Your being too generous, Ill take the duck blind.

[Rome]

Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Brad Miller
7-0 C from Purdue
15.0 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 4.7 apg in 37.0 minutes

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
6-9 PF from California
12.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.1 apg in 27.2 minutes
Incoming

Marcus Camby
6-11 C from Massachusetts
12.8 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 33.1 minutes

Eduardo Najera
6-8 SF from Oklahoma
5.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 0.8 apg in 22.7 minutes
Change in team outlook: -9.1 ppg, +4.2 rpg, and -4.0 apg.

Denver Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Marcus Camby
6-11 C from Massachusetts
12.8 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 2.0 apg in 33.1 minutes

Eduardo Najera
6-8 SF from Oklahoma
5.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 0.8 apg in 22.7 minutes
Incoming

Brad Miller
7-0 C from Purdue
15.0 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 4.7 apg in 37.0 minutes

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
6-9 PF from California
12.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.1 apg in 27.2 minutes
Change in team outlook: +9.1 ppg, -4.2 rpg, and +4.0 apg.


Successful Scenario
Due to Sacramento and Denver being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Sacramento and Denver had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

[BMiller52]

That deal is awful for the kings.

Anyways, maybe we can get like atlanta's draft pick for Brad and pick Aldridge?

[Rome]

that will do too. I just think its Brad's time is due. He's shown no center skills and his offense skills are very easy to stop. Just put a small guy on him and your good.

[VF21]

this isn't BibbyFans.com or MillerFans.com Its kingsfans.com and if you call this player bashing then you might wanna rethink about that.

This is a fair post and I think we've given Miller enough time. He has not done anything in the playoffs except ruin our hopes of winning by playing no defense or rebounding. This thread is for people to post trade ideas of who we can get for Big Brad.

And you're a person who has been banned from this forum before. You might want to think about that.

Keep your comments civil. You can complain and criticize without sounding like you're trying to start a lynch party.

Brad was NOT the only person who had a bad game.

[6th]

I have no problem with you wanting to think of trades. My problem is that it is in the middle of the 1st playoff game while you are ticked off at Brad's play in that game. That is what makes it bashing. It is all about the timing. I simply asked that you wait until offseason now. There will be no trades allowed til offseason anyway.

[thesanityannex]

I simply asked that you wait until offseason now. There will be no trades allowed til offseason anyway.This seems to contradict the whole point of having a "personnel moves" section of the forum. Trades are always being discussed here (usually after a poor outing) before, during, and after the trade deadline.

[Rome]

And you're a person who has been banned from this forum before. You might want to think about that.

Keep your comments civil. You can complain and criticize without sounding like you're trying to start a lynch party.

Brad was NOT the only person who had a bad game.

I'm sorry VF21. I'm not trying to personally attack Brad Miller or any Kings players. I'm just trying to collect some ideas from people. This thread does not only reflect this game but the overall game of our center.

I just think that Brad is a center that's built for the season. It's not Brad's fault that he sucked today. Credit the Spurs for playing good defense on him by not allowing him to collect rebounds or make shots. IMO Brad is very easy to stop. You can put a small player on him and make him ineffective. Thus when you stop his only game which is making shots and passing then he doesn't have anything else that he can do. You can't count on him rebounding or blocking shots so what good is he when his shot and assists are taken away?

[Rome]

I have no problem with you wanting to think of trades. My problem is that it is in the middle of the 1st playoff game while you are ticked off at Brad's play in that game. That is what makes it bashing. It is all about the timing. I simply asked that you wait until offseason now. There will be no trades allowed til offseason anyway.
Then lets lock the "Personal Moves" Forum until the offseason?

[Larry89]

Well, since Ron came here I thought maybe that would motivate brad to play a little better defense, but tonight.. ONLY 1 REBOUND!?!?!

[VF21]

The Personnel Moves forum is for trade talks, draft discussions, etc. It's not going to be closed.

Rome - Your initial post was full of a lot of venom about Miller. That's problematic at best. He's still a member of our team and we don't need to start bashing him for a bad performance.

That's gone on around way too much in the recent past. Webber received too much of it as did Peja.

You can criticize a player without resorting to bashing. I believe that was 6th's concern and it's certainly mine.

Vent over a frustrating playoff loss all you want but don't resort to attacking the guy wearing the Kings uniform in your anger.

People need to take down the anger a notch or two. There are a lot of things in life to get angry about. A basketball game shouldn't be one of them.

::VF21 drags soap box back into the corner::

[VF21]

I just think that Brad is a center that's built for the season. It's not Brad's fault that he sucked today. Credit the Spurs for playing good defense on him by not allowing him to collect rebounds or make shots. IMO Brad is very easy to stop. You can put a small player on him and make him ineffective. Thus when you stop his only game which is making shots and passing then he doesn't have anything else that he can do. You can't count on him rebounding or blocking shots so what good is he when his shot and assists are taken away?

That may all be true. But Brad Miller is the center we have. Good, bad or otherwise, he's the one we brung to the dance and he's the one we're gonna have through the playoffs.

[thesanityannex]

But Brad Miller is the center we have. Good, bad or otherwise, he's the one we brung to the dance and he's the one we're gonna have through the playoffs.We brought someone with two left feet to the dance???:eek:

[VF21]

Yep, and he's big and somewhat clumsy... but he does have a cute grin.

;)

[thesanityannex]

We brought a linedancer to a breakdance competition.

[yanon]

I never like Brad's game. A center is suppose do a center's job that is rebounding and score from the low post. The Kings have a awkward system that have center play the point guard'r role. I don't this system can win in today's NBA game with defense juggernauts like the Pistons and the Spurs.

The Kings need a real center.

[yanon]

Chris Wilcox will be a free agent. He has played very well ever since he was traded from the Clippers to the Sonics. He just never got the chance to show his game (rebound and some low post scoring) because he was playing behind the MVP candidate Elton Brand.

[Kings113]

As I was with the team, quite disappointed with Brad's game. He's gotta come out with more energy and HUSTLE for the rest of the damn series.

Wilcox will be tough to get, as he's an RFA, and sonics love him.

[Rome]

I like Wilcox. I think he is pretty underrated. he would be fit pretty good with this system. He can score as well as play help defense and rebound.

[SacKings4Life21]

Well if we cant move brad... how do you guyz feel about signing Joel P and moving brad back to PF... he can provide the offense that A PF can provide.. and play a poor (very poor) man's Dirk style game from the PF. He hits the three, and most jumpers...

[yanon]

He doesn't have Drik's range or scorig ability.
Even Dirk is a better rebounder than Brad.

Package SAR + Brad + pick for KG

[SacTownKid]

Brad stunk it up, BAD! I can bet you anything his teammates are ripping him. If not they should. His stat line tells the whole story. You know how hard it is for a 7 footer to grab 1 rebound in a game!

Still he is very talented and if we are looking for Brad to be our interior presence than we have a serious problem. He can do much better though.

Not into trading the guy, but definately need to re-think how he fits into this team.

Look for him to have a big game next go around.

[beemerr23]

well looking at Brad miller over the years I can tell you he isnt playoff material. Not to mention he can't rebound or block shots or play a lick of defense.

He displayed his horrible defense in the 2005 playoffs by allowing Jerome James average 18 ppg.

I think we have to move on and get a real center willing to do the stuff a center does...

Place all the ideas of who and what we can get for Brad Miller in this thread. So people are finally starting to see what I've been saying all year long. Soon people will be jumping on the Trade Bonzi Wells bandwagon for a legit shooting guard. I will say this though, if we want to have a legitimate shot at winning the Championship, Brad Miller as a C won't make it happen.

[Rome]

AS i said b4. Brad is only good for the season. He will get his 15 ppg, 5 assists and 7 rebounds but when it comes to the playoffs you might as well call him a choker.

In the playoffs he averages 10 ppg, 2 assists, and just 6 boards while allowing the opponent Center to score around 18-20 ppg.

you can put a guard on Brad and make him ineffective. He does not impose any kind of threat unless he's up against a slow frontline like Yao Ming or Shaq. If a player sticks with him in the high post it takes away his assists plus jumpshots and he tends to become confused which results in turnovers. And did I mention he cant rebound because he's floating in the highpost.

Well if we cant move brad... how do you guyz feel about signing Joel P and moving brad back to PF... he can provide the offense that A PF can provide.. and play a poor (very poor) man's Dirk style game from the PF. He hits the three, and most jumpers...

Brad and Joel would be the slowest frontline in the NBA. Just having a shotblocker doesn't make your defense good. You need someone who's gonna rotate fast and play help defense as well. Plus just imagine how badly PF's would dominate over Brad since PF's are usually quicker.

[VF21]

He doesn't have Drik's range or scorig ability.
Even Dirk is a better rebounder than Brad.

Package SAR + Brad + pick for KG

I'd do it in a heartbeat. The problem is STILL the same ... convincing the Timberwolves that it's a good deal.

[Bricklayer]

Ahh...have to love the knee jerk philosophers. My own concern about Brad as playoff force have been mentioned repeatedly. That said, basing a trade thread on one game -- and don't even bore me by trying to claim this would be here if he had gone for 18 and 10 -- is more than a little silly. Based on this game we should just trade the whole team. For the Blazers.

[SacKings4Life21]

Sacramento Kings

Incoming Players
Eddie Griffin
Salary: $2,500,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 4.6 REB: 5.6 AST: 0.6 PER: 12.25

Samuel Dalembert
Salary: $8,477,178 Years Remaining: 5
PTS: 7.3 REB: 8.2 AST: 0.4 PER: 14.22

Marko Jaric
Salary: $5,280,528 Years Remaining: 5
PTS: 7.8 REB: 3.1 AST: 3.9 PER: 11.70


Outgoing Players: Brad Miller, Shareef Abdur-Rahim

Minnesota Timberwolves

Incoming Players
Allen Iverson
Salary: $16,453,125 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 33.0 REB: 3.2 AST: 7.4 PER: 26.02

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Salary: $5,000,000 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 12.3 REB: 5.0 AST: 2.1 PER: 17.31


Outgoing Players: Mark Madsen, Bracey Wright, Eddie Griffin, Mark Blount, Rashad McCants, Marko Jaric

Philadelphia 76ers

Incoming Players
Mark Madsen
Salary: $2,000,000 Years Remaining: 0
PTS: 1.2 REB: 2.3 AST: 0.2 PER: 5.26

Bracey Wright
Salary: $398,762 Years Remaining: 0
PTS: 8.9 REB: 2.6 AST: 0.7 PER: 12.06

Mark Blount
Salary: $5,515,875 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 11.3 REB: 4.5 AST: 1.2 PER: 12.12

Brad Miller
Salary: $8,750,000 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 15.0 REB: 7.8 AST: 4.7 PER: 17.52

Rashad McCants
Salary: $1,538,400 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 7.9 REB: 1.8 AST: 0.8 PER: 12.61


Outgoing Players: Allen Iverson, Samuel Dalembert

I was amazed at how well I think this could work for all teams...

Why the kings would do this...
By trading Miller and adding Sammy D we significantly upgrade our Defense and rebounding. not to mention age. He is young and skilled. His offense is a little raw, but he is really improving... at least when I watch him. We get rid of SAR but we pull in Griffin, exactly what many kings fans have been shooting for. He is a great defender, and can block and rebound to. Jaric is to help out our point guard problems. He is a very servicable player that Adleman likes because he plays many positions. I think this makes us alot deeper to.

Downside...
We loose some offense because SAR is formidable and Brad did nothing but offense. We would still have kenny, who isnt all that bad, but no use having SAR and Kenny.

Why the T wolves do this...
They get a super star to go next to Garnett... I think that the T wolves get the best part of the deal because adding SAR gives them an offensive PF and can put KG at the ceter positon. AI, Hassel, Davis, SAR, KG is a legit line up... plus they still have Hudson off the bench. If I was Mini I would do this.. but what do you all think?

Downsides...
The Wolves send 6 of thier players to recive 2, and that makes thier bench none existant... Which might not even be allowed! lol but if they were able to sign some free agents for a bench, then that problem would be solved. Another issue is that they give up RM, who has been promising for them... but if they want to give the go to Marcus banks then they all good.

Why the Sixers do this...
Obvsiouly the sixers get the worst talent end of the deal... But they are in a semi rebuilding mode anyway... They are trying to get rid of iverson, and getting basically Brad miller for Iverson isnt the best thing for them, but its not a complete waste either. Blout is pretty average on both ends. They get RM who has a promising future, and can run the point around their young peices in korver and the other AI

Downsides...
Well trading iverson would most likly be for another star, or major cap space... which they get neither. They get a 2 young guns, and 2 old centers with big contracts... plus madson's 5 year extension but his isnt that big. So i think this trade fails on the sixers end. So they wouldnt have much more breathing room ya kno? I am going to try and re work this a bit to make it a better deal for the sixers... and get back to ya

[Rome]

I like the trade except for the Jaric guy. I guess he would be good for a backup on the bench though.

[beemerr23]

Ahh...have to love the knee jerk philosophers. My own concern about Brad as playoff force have been mentioned repeatedly. That said, basing a trade thread on one game -- and don't even bore me by trying to claim this would be here if he had gone for 18 and 10 -- is more than a little silly. Based on this game we should just trade the whole team. For the Blazers. Because Brad Miller has been a stellar rebounder all year long, and has played stellar defense. Trust me, it isn't jsut because of this game. All this game served for was reinsurance that he needs to be traded.

[beemerr23]

Also, Chris Wilcox would be a fantastic pickup, I'd love to bring an athletic Center in here. We should also do our best to rid K9 and Bonzi for a legit shooting guard and a decent bench too. :cool:

[SacKings4Life21]

Sacramento Kings

Incoming Players
Eddie Griffin
Salary: $2,500,000 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 4.6 REB: 5.6 AST: 0.6 PER: 12.25

Samuel Dalembert
Salary: $8,477,178 Years Remaining: 5
PTS: 7.3 REB: 8.2 AST: 0.4 PER: 14.22

Marko Jaric
Salary: $5,280,528 Years Remaining: 5
PTS: 7.8 REB: 3.1 AST: 3.9 PER: 11.70


Outgoing Players: Brad Miller, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Corliss WilliamsonMinnesota Timberwolves

Incoming Players
Allen Iverson
Salary: $16,453,125 Years Remaining: 3
PTS: 33.0 REB: 3.2 AST: 7.4 PER: 26.02

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Salary: $5,000,000 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 12.3 REB: 5.0 AST: 2.1 PER: 17.31


Outgoing Players: Mark Madsen, Eddie Griffin, Ricky Davis, Rashad McCants, Marko JaricPhiladelphia 76ers

Incoming Players
Mark Madsen
Salary: $2,000,000 Years Remaining: 0
PTS: 1.2 REB: 2.3 AST: 0.2 PER: 5.26

Ricky Davis
Salary: $5,909,800 Years Remaining: 2
PTS: 19.4 REB: 4.5 AST: 5.1 PER: 15.64

Brad Miller
Salary: $8,750,000 Years Remaining: 4
PTS: 15.0 REB: 7.8 AST: 4.7 PER: 17.52

Rashad McCants
Salary: $1,538,400 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 7.9 REB: 1.8 AST: 0.8 PER: 12.61

Corliss Williamson
Salary: $6,000,000 Years Remaining: 1
PTS: 3.4 REB: 1.8 AST: 0.4 PER: 8.17


Outgoing Players: Allen Iverson, Samuel Dalembert


This way its better for the sixers in rebuilding... reciveing Corliss's contreact

[SacKings4Life21]

man i think this works well... we cut cap room, and fill needs... Sixers get cap relief, a good center, and a nice peice in davis

[SacKings4Life21]

RM, Andre, Davis, Webber, miller is pretty solid... with Korver off the bench... plus salary cap... woot. THis trade is tight

[SacTownKid]

I would love to get Eddie Griffin and Daly, but c'mon. Look at what we are giving up! That isn't fair to us in the least bit. May help us, but thats a bad deal talent wise.

We end up with a Kenny Thomas, Eddie Griffin, Dalembert frontcourt. Something is to be said for having a talented team.

[Bricklayer]

I would love to get Eddie Griffin and Daly, but c'mon. Look at what we are giving up! That isn't fair to us in the least bit. May help us, but thats a bad deal talent wise.

We end up with a Kenny Thomas, Eddie Griffin, Dalembert frontcourt. Something is to be said for having a talented team.

That frontcourt might actually work, but only if you were getting about 60 a game out of your 1-3 guys who would have to be very prolific.

[SacKings4Life21]

Well Sam Dam is very talented... and Griffin can score to. sure we give up SAR's offense along with brads offence, but as far as i am concerned... we add much more defense than we loose offence. And D is what matters. I have no doubt eddie can average 10-12 with regular mintues, and that is close to SAR... Sam dam is only going to get 8-10 but his boards and blocks is much more valuble! I dont think we are giving up to much... we are also adding cap room, even if its small

[BMiller52]

Dalembert isn't a very good man to man defender and he goaltends about as many shots as he blocks.

[SacKings4Life21]

Well that front court will average about 30 a game on another team, but if we resign Rick, and he teachs them some offensive tips... than we can get more. Our back court would be our heavey scoring... but with better rebounding we have better put backs, so i think they would get thier scoring. Plus we could save enough cash to resign bonzi.... mike ron bonzi are going to average close to 60... so I think this is golden

[venom_7]

dude, centers like Brad come around only once in FOREVER. You guys point out this game, but what about the games when he did play good defense and he did dominate? Game that sticks out was against Philly, we still lost, but Brad got 36 and was the only reason we were close in the end anyway. What about that game at New York? He shut down Curry and did some scoring too. he just wasn't into the game today. He is the key to beating the Spurs. And he needs to show on those screens, and Bibby needs to go under them. Make Parker beat you with his jumpshot.

[venom_7]

Why the T wolves do this...
They get a super star to go next to Garnett... I think that the T wolves get the best part of the deal because adding SAR gives them an offensive PF and can put KG at the ceter positon. AI, Hassel, Davis, SAR, KG is a legit line up... plus they still have Hudson off the bench. If I was Mini I would do this.. but what do you all think?



They would just put Reef at the 3. Then you would have AI, McCants, Reef, KG, and draft pick for center. Probably Shelden Williams or Taj Gray.

[thesanityannex]

dude, centers like Brad come around only once in FOREVER.Sweet jumpshooting non defense playing 1 rebounding centers?








You are right, they are rare.

[Rome]

dude, centers like Brad come around only once in FOREVER. You guys point out this game, but what about the games when he did play good defense and he did dominate? Game that sticks out was against Philly, we still lost, but Brad got 36 and was the only reason we were close in the end anyway. What about that game at New York? He shut down Curry and did some scoring too. he just wasn't into the game today. He is the key to beating the Spurs. And he needs to show on those screens, and Bibby needs to go under them. Make Parker beat you with his jumpshot.
Dude you dont get it do you? You just cant have a center who relies on his offense and does nothing else to win you playoff games. That just doesnt work. Look at all the teams that won championships.

Detroit has Ben Wallace who's nothing but defense and rebounding. Spurs have Nazr Mohammed who quitely flows with the game by playing defense and rebounding.

With Brad Miller on this team the system is totally wack. Our guards are actually expected to go down low and get rebounds over the opposing team's centers and forwards while our own center is waiting behind the arc for a three. I would rather lose offense from our center position for toughness and defense/rebounding.

And I realized something when i was looking at Brad's stats. Brad Miller isn't that great of a passer before comming to Sacramento. He averaged no more then 2 assists during his stay in Indianna and Chicago. Maybe a defensive center can dish out assists like that if they learn our system.

[kingsfan52miller]

Sweet jumpshooting non defense playing 1 rebounding centers?








You are right, they are rare. Its one game? its not like he does it all the time

[Padrino]

Its one game? its not like he does it all the time

no...rarely--if at all this season--has brad miller played extended minutes only to pull down a single rebound in a game. but he has rebounded very poorly on the whole this season. that cannot continue if the kings are going to have any chance against the spurs. the kings are still one of the worst rebounding teams in the league, while the spurs are one of the best. you don't have to outrebound them to win, but you do have to keep the rebounding battle close, and it will never be close if brad miller and everyone else don't start battling for boards.

[venom_7]

exactly. he can play defense if he tries. Remember Yao? i think the coaches should come up with a special scheme just for Brad, every game, and he needs to work hard on it.

[Bricklayer]

And I realized something when i was looking at Brad's stats. Brad Miller isn't that great of a passer before comming to Sacramento. He averaged no more then 2 assists during his stay in Indianna and Chicago. Maybe a defensive center can dish out assists like that if they learn our system.

As for the passing -- Brad Miller was ALWAYS an exceptional passer for a center. Why a number of us on here were calling for us to get him before Geoff made the move. He was simply in a system where he wasn't given many opportunities. And no, the same can't be said of every other two assist center in the league. Some guys have it. Some don't. Right now in the NBA there may not be another true center that passes as well -- timing and touch are not skills you teach. They are gifts.

(Yao can pass, so can Bogut, neither as consistently well)

[kingsfan52miller]

i dont understand why some people are just ready to throw him away..there are not alot of centers out there better than him, i wonder if this thread will die down if brad goes the next game 15 11 and 5..and kenny thomas when asked about the lack of rebounds had a good point..there were not alot of rebounds for the kings to get tonight..i dont think thats an excuse for brad having 1 rebound at all..but it is 1 game

[Rome]

Its one game? its not like he does it all the time

If your talking about his defense and rebounding then your mistaken. He's played horrible defense and grabbed very few rebounds numerous times this season.

[kingsfan52miller]

If your talking about his defense and rebounding then your mistaken. He's played horrible defense and grabbed very few rebounds numerous times this season. so has every other player on this roster

[Rome]

As for the passing -- Brad Miller was ALWAYS an exceptional passer for a center. Why a number of us on here were calling for us to get him before he Geoff made the move. He was simply in a system where he wasn't given many opportunities. And no, the same can't be said of every other two rebound center in the league. Some guys have it. Some don't. Right now in the NBA there may not be another true center that passes as well -- timing and touch are not skills you teach. They are gifts.

nah im good. I'm fine with a guard who passes and a center who rebounds and plays defense. Not the other way around.

[Rome]

so has every other player on this roster

Not KT and Bonzi but thats cause their forced to pick up the slack due to our center not physically being able to jump and grab a rebound. The 2 that stand out the most are Reef and Miller. Im not too concerned with Reef because he doesnt start but maybe its time for both of them to go.

[VF21]

i dont understand why some people are just ready to throw him away..there are not alot of centers out there better than him, i wonder if this thread will die down if brad goes the next game 15 11 and 5..and kenny thomas when asked about the lack of rebounds had a good point..there were not alot of rebounds for the kings to get tonight..i dont think thats an excuse for brad having 1 rebound at all..but it is 1 game

And forwhatever it's worth we don't know what happened to cause him to have his pinkie and ring finger on his shooting hand bandaged shortly after the game started...

Artest gets smacked in the face by a Manu elbow.

Brad has to have his shooting hand taped up.

Bibby ends up with a large noticeable scrape on his forehead.

And this was just game 1...

[Bricklayer]

nah im good. I'm fine with a guard who passes and a center who rebounds and plays defense. Not the other way around.

Which is your limitation unfortunately. The game can be played in far more ways than you seem capable of imagining. Exploiting mismatches is one of them.

Brad Miller can be replaced. But you better replace him with another center who is as good at what he does as Brad is at what he does. If you can find us an available shotblocking/rebounding center operating on a borderline All-Star level, I'm open to the suggestion. But they just aren't out there.

[kingsfan52miller]

And forwhatever it's worth we don't know what happened to cause him to have his pinkie and ring finger on his shooting hand bandaged shortly after the game started...

Artest gets smacked in the face by a Manu elbow.

Brad has to have his shooting hand taped up.

Bibby ends up with a large noticeable scrape on his forehead.

And this was just game 1... hopefully our players can make it to game three lol

[yanon]

Our current players are basically doing things contrary to the conventional system. We have short guys trying battle down low for rebound. A point guard who plays like a shooting guard and a center who plays like a point guard. How many teams actually won a championship with a center who is the team's primary passer and has very weak interior defense? Why are the Kings keep trying to prove their awkward system actually works? It is time to build a team following the conventional system.

[Rome]

Our current players are basically doing things contrary to the conventional system. We have short guys trying battle down low for rebound. A point guard who plays like a shooting guard and a center who plays like a point guard. How many teams actually won a championship with a center who is the team's primary passer and has very weak interior defense? Why are the Kings keep trying to prove their awkward system actually works? It is time to build a team following the conventional system.

Thank You.

[Kings113]

It's time to get a damn shot-blocker/rebounder of some kind. Be it Griffin/Wright/Nene/Mohammed/Haywood/Elson/Perkins.

[yanon]

Birck,

Actually, I think it would be easier to build a championship contending team with a top notch powerfoward and an average but defensive minded center. It is a lot easier to find a good powerfoward than it is to find a good conventional (rebound and defend/score in the low post) center. If we can't get KG, who is similar to the pre-injury Webber, then the Kings would be wise to change their system because they simiply will not find another powerforward, who can complement Brad, in the NBA.

[Rome]

Birck,

Actually, I think it would be easier to build a championship contending team with a top notch powerfoward and an average but defensive minded center. It is a lot easier to find a good powerfoward than it is to find a good conventional (rebound and defend/score in the low post) center. If we can't get KG, who is similar to the pre-injury Webber, then the Kings would be wise to change their system because they simiply will not find another powerforward, who can complement Brad, in the NBA.

Birck?

[Kings113]

Brick*

[yanon]

birck --> Brick ---> short for Bricklayer

[BMiller52]

It's time to get a damn shot-blocker/rebounder of some kind. Be it Griffin/Wright/Nene/Mohammed/Haywood/Elson/Perkins.


/Martin.:D

[DaMan]

Our current players are basically doing things contrary to the conventional system. We have short guys trying battle down low for rebound. A point guard who plays like a shooting guard and a center who plays like a point guard. How many teams actually won a championship with a center who is the team's primary passer and has very weak interior defense? Why are the Kings keep trying to prove their awkward system actually works? It is time to build a team following the conventional system.

I agree with ur post.

[Bricklayer]

Our current players are basically doing things contrary to the conventional system. We have short guys trying battle down low for rebound. A point guard who plays like a shooting guard and a center who plays like a point guard. How many teams actually won a championship with a center who is the team's primary passer and has very weak interior defense? Why are the Kings keep trying to prove their awkward system actually works? It is time to build a team following the conventional system.

Well after 8 straight playoff appearances and year after year of being one of the best offensive teams in basketball, its abundantly clear the system works. Now works for a title? I've raised that question myself. But we came achingly close in 2002 and were the favorites in 2003.

We ourselves are of course the model for teams with a great passing center who does not excel on D, and for all of the angst and complaining, Kings fans have become very very spoiled with just how good we have been year after year. Problem is in the personnel, not the system. Brad's defense and rebounding have gotten so bad -- worse than Vlade's were until his final year -- and we've teamed him with a midget and softie rather than a borderline HOF type player.

The problem with "going conventional" is that it becomes power on power. Basically you have to have a BETTER big man than Ben Wallce or Tim Duncan inside and on the glass. Otherwise you're just a pale imitation of the better teams, and you will never beat them. And so sure, if you can get your hands on a HOF big like Shaq or Duncan (or KG) you do it, or a on a three time DPOY winner like Big Ben, sure. But running off and picking up bleeping Chris Wilcox or whoever does nothing for you as you go conventional. It just means that you are GUARANTEED of being beaten, without even the intriguing upset chance you have if you are attacking them where they are weak.

[Kings113]

Wilcox isn't the answer. Seattle are gonna lock him up anyways (RFA) because of his 1 1/2 months with them.

[Kings113]

/Martin.:D

Notice I didn't include guys with huge contracts :p. Except for Haywood, who would be kinda difficult to get with our available assets anyways. Unless we traded Brad for him, which I don't see.

Aside from that, Kenyon still can't stay healthy.

[BMiller52]

Notice I didn't include guys with huge contracts :p. Except for Haywood, who would be kinda difficult to get with our available assets anyways. Unless we traded Brad for him, which I don't see.

Aside from that, Kenyon still can't stay healthy.


Yeah, I wish he could stay healthy. He would help our team a lot. He plays with intensity, he can run the floor, he plays good defense, etc. Artest/Martin would probably be one of the best 3/4 combos in the league on defense. I think the nuggets would trade him to us because he's not the offensive #2 they needed him to be, he's got a big contract, and they have Nene who fits better with them(if he pans out he can probably be Mello's #2 option imo).

Any chance we could trade Reef to Chicago or Brad to atlanta for their pick? ATL needs a center badly that even Brad would help(although he doesn't really play like a center) and Chicago needs someone to score in the post badly. They already have Chandler to cover up Reef's inabillity to block shots and to get the boards.

If we did either of those trades I'd draft Aldridge or Tyrus Thomas. Those guys can rebound, play D, and block shots.

What about Lorenzen Wright for the MLE? Would he sign for that and would he work?

[Kings113]

Wright is a good rebounder, quick, plays with energy, pretty athletic, has a good mid-range jumper, can score down low, good scorer, and seems like he can defend in the post. He isn't a shotblocker like Griffin or Chandler, but has shown he can with regularity. Just this season he hasn't been able to as much, becuase his minutes and role have been decreased much for most the season compared to past. I think he would take the MLE. Wouldn't be surprised if Petrie does go after him, he tried to get him in the Bonzi trade, but Memphis said no as Corliss was to be included, I think. He wouldn't be my first or second choice, but I'd like it.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lorenzen_wright/index.html

I'd consider the Reef/Brad trade.. wouldn't mind getting Duhon or Lue back in that deal either.

[venom_7]

bring in Theo Ratliff

[Bricklayer]

Wright is a good rebounder, quick, plays with energy, pretty athletic, has a good mid-range jumper, can score down low, good scorer, and seems like he can defend in the post. He isn't a shotblocker like Griffin or Chandler, but has shown he can with regularity. Just this season he hasn't been able to as much, becuase his minutes and role have been decreased much for most the season compared to past. I think he would take the MLE. Wouldn't be surprised if Petrie does go after him, he tried to get him in the Bonzi trade, but Memphis said no as Corliss was to be included, I think. He wouldn't be my first or second choice, but I'd like it.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lorenzen_wright/index.html

I'd consider the Reef/Brad trade.. wouldn't mind getting Duhon or Lue back in that deal either.

I have no idea why people still sometimes talk about that guy. He is the epitomy of mediocrity. Not awfulness mind you. Just boring, drab, I do nothing at all well, mediocrity. Just a body. Certainly not an impact guy who can change things for this or any team.

[nbrans]

Well after 8 straight playoff appearances and year after year of being one of the best offensive teams in basketball, its abundantly clear the system works. Now works for a title? I've raised that question myself. But we came achingly close in 2002 and were the favorites in 2003.

We ourselves are of course the model for teams with a great passing center who does not excel on D, and for all of the angst and complaining, Kings fans have become very very spoiled with just how good we have been year after year. Problem is in the personnel, not the system. Brad's defense and rebounding have gotten so bad -- worse than Vlade's were until his final year -- and we've teamed him with a midget and softie rather than a borderline HOF type player.

The problem with "going conventional" is that it becomes power on power. Basically you have to have a BETTER big man than Ben Wallce or Tim Duncan inside and on the glass. Otherwise you're just a pale imitation of the better teams, and you will never beat them. And so sure, if you can get your hands on a HOF big like Shaq or Duncan (or KG) you do it, or a on a three time DPOY winner like Big Ben, sure. But running off and picking up bleeping Chris Wilcox or whoever does nothing for you as you go conventional. It just means that you are GUARANTEED of being beaten, without even the intriguing upset chance you have if you are attacking them where they are weak.

Yeah, what he said. I'm all for replacing Brad if the Kings can legitimately upgrade. But short of receiving Duncan/Shaq/Yao/Wallace/KG, the Kings already have one of the best centers in the NBA. Brad can look pretty terrible on a bad night, but there aren't very many centers who are better than him. If you're going to trade him you had better get someone better, and none of the names bandied about in this thread (Dalembert/Wilcox/Griffin) are better.

[Ryle]

Brad plays better as a PF and has nowhere near the quickness to play any type of help defense whatsoever. Put Brad with a shot blocking center(Dalembert type) and he would be fine.

[nbrans]

I think whatever position Brad is listed as is irrelevant as long as there is someone who is a defensive presence who can play both power forward and center. That way, the defensive player can take on the better of the opposing 4 or 5 and mask Brad's deficiencies.

But that defensive player had better be really, really good defensively, because the Kings really can't afford to lose any more offense in their starting lineup. They're already struggling mightily to score points, and if you put in someone like Dalembert, that problem is only going to get worse. In other words, I'm thinking someone with "elite" rebounder/shotblocker/defender potential like Tyson Chandler. I think Dalembert is much too clumsy to have that kind of potential.

[Kings113]

Yeah, what he said. I'm all for replacing Brad if the Kings can legitimately upgrade. But short of receiving Duncan/Shaq/Yao/Wallace/KG, the Kings already have one of the best centers in the NBA. Brad can look pretty terrible on a bad night, but there aren't very many centers who are better than him. If you're going to trade him you had better get someone better, and none of the names bandied about in this thread (Dalembert/Wilcox/Griffin) are better.

Don't think anyone has said Brad Miller for Eddie Griffin. Eddie Griffin isn't a center anyways, he can play there at times, but is more of a PF or a combo big. Also haven't seen anyone put Griffin over Brad in general. No idea where you're getting that from. Dalembert I'd say is unrealistic, and Wilcox will likely be re-signed by Seattle, and is an RFA anyways.

Don't know if we can get Chandler.

[nbrans]

Don't think anyone has said Brad Miller for Eddie Griffin. Eddie Griffin isn't a center anyways, he can play there at times, but is more of a PF or a combo big. Also haven't seen anyone put Griffin over Brad in general. No idea where you're getting that from. Dalembert I'd say is unrealistic, and Wilcox will likely be re-signed by Seattle, and is an RFA anyways.

Don't know if we can get Chandler.

See sackings' trade proposal in the middle of this thread. Obviously a Miller for Griffin trade isn't realistic or possible, but I still haven't seen a reasonable proposal for a Miller replacement in this thread. Trading people in theory is great until you start looking at trying to find someone better.

[AriesMar27]

so this is how we get kg..... we trade miller and bonzi.....

[nbrans]

so this is how we get kg..... we trade miller and bonzi.....

With all due respect, Minnesota wouldn't want Brad OR Bonzi. If they're going to trade KG they're going to get a proven star, cap relief, draft picks and several young players with potential. They don't want a 30 year old declining center and a 30 year old shooting guard.

[FrenchCanadianKING]

Brad is a very good Center. Yet Center is BY FAR the thinnest position in the NBA in terms of overall talent. One of the game's best for sure but let's see, he can shoot and dish really well. Low post moves... nope. Shotblocking... nope. Rebounding... nope. Overall defense... nope. Speed... nope. IMO, the 3 most important aspects of a Centers game is being able to score down low, block shots and rebound. Brad can't do any of those 3. Would you want one of the best point guards in the league yet he can't shoot, dribble or pass well? He's a really good shotblocker and rebounder though. I know I wouldn't.

He's good, very good and I really like Brad. But if we don't pair him up with somebody defensive-minded to clean up for him, don't expect opponents to cease running lay-up drills on us during games. Brad is good, but if his J from 15 feet doesn't drop he's useless to us. IMO he's not the guy for THIS team. And even if he doesn't have a BAD game for the rest of the series/playoffs, that still doesn't change the fact that he doesn't play a Center's game and that we need way more out of him, especially with this current team, in order to be true contenders.

[AriesMar27]

okay i got it.... wilcox and watson for miller.... let hart walk.... resign bonzi....

[AriesMar27]

mikki moore would be nice too....

[SacKings4Life21]

wilcox doesnt block shots.......! he rebounds, which is great... but he doesnt block shots!

[SacTownKid]

Look if we have any hope of keeping a Bonzi/Ron wing combo, we need Brad Miller to spread the floor. He and Bibby are our only 2 legit outside threats. Two very good ones as well. Lets see how Brad bounces back and come back to this subject. I am all for getting a big body to put next to him. Not trading him away for an average role player.

Find a way to bring a guy like Dalembert here WITHOUT giving up Brad. Find a way to bring a guy like Eddie Griffin here WITHOUT giving up Brad.

I woudn't mind moving up in the draft to pick up Shelden Williams. He'd be perfect as that 4/5 combo, shotblocker, rebounder, etc. We've got expiring deals in Hart (when he picks up his option), Vitaly, and Big Nasty. Some good young talent if a draft day deal is expanded in Monia, Garcia, and Martin.

[SacKings4Life21]

Indiana Trade Breakdown

Outgoing
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes
Incoming

Brad Miller
7-0 C from Purdue
15.0 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 4.7 apg in 37.0 minutes

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
6-9 PF from California
12.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.1 apg in 27.2 minutes
Change in team outlook: +7.2 ppg, +3.5 rpg, and +4.2 apg.


Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Brad Miller
7-0 C from Purdue
15.0 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 4.7 apg in 37.0 minutes

Shareef Abdur-Rahim
6-9 PF from California
12.3 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.1 apg in 27.2 minutes

Incoming
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
20.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 35.3 minutes
Change in team outlook: -7.2 ppg, -3.5 rpg, and -4.2 apg.

[SacKings4Life21]

dunno how this would actually play out, but brad wants to finish his career in indiana, and I heard Indi was exploring JO trades...

[Kings113]

JO and Ron back together? Don't think that'd be good. They're cool off the court, but are not on the court.

[Kings113]

Look if we have any hope of keeping a Bonzi/Ron wing combo, we need Brad Miller to spread the floor. He and Bibby are our only 2 legit outside threats. Two very good ones as well. Lets see how Brad bounces back and come back to this subject. I am all for getting a big body to put next to him. Not trading him away for an average role player.

Find a way to bring a guy like Dalembert here WITHOUT giving up Brad. Find a way to bring a guy like Eddie Griffin here WITHOUT giving up Brad.

I woudn't mind moving up in the draft to pick up Shelden Williams. He'd be perfect as that 4/5 combo, shotblocker, rebounder, etc. We've got expiring deals in Hart (when he picks up his option), Vitaly, and Big Nasty. Some good young talent if a draft day deal is expanded in Monia, Garcia, and Martin.

I agree. On Griffin, we wouldn't give up Brad for him (that'd be odd), nor could we because of contracts.

[SacKings4Life21]

There is no PF that is realistically available to fill a void... the draft is an option... and KG lol but dont think KG is going ne where ne more

[SacKings4Life21]

Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Francisco Garcia
6-7 SF from Louisville
5.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes
Incoming
Kendrick Perkins
6-10 PF from Ozen (HS)
5.2 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.0 apg in 19.6 minutes
Change in team outlook: -0.4 ppg, +3.1 rpg, and -0.4 apg.


Boston Trade Breakdown
Outgoing
Kendrick Perkins
6-10 PF from Ozen (HS)
5.2 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.0 apg in 19.6 minutes
Incoming
Francisco Garcia
6-7 SF from Louisville
5.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes
Change in team outlook: +0.4 ppg, -3.1 rpg, and +0.4 apg.

I would like to seethis happen... unproven for unproven... i like PErk's upside more than Cisco's

[Kings113]

I'm not sure if Celts would do that, but I would.

[SacKings4Life21]

I like that kid... he is the type of player we want. Dunno that Cisco fits thier needs thou

[Troy]

I was thinking the same thing to move Brad to PF which he really is anyways. I know he is slow and all, but he does shoot well and is a cornerstone to out offense, how weird that it is.

Like others have said, we have a PG that is our SG (Bibby), a SG that is our PF (Bonzi), a C who is a Forward of some sort (Miller), and a PF who is our Center at 6' 7" (K9). How weird it is, we actually win games, but we are glaring weakness is that we are softer than a twinkee inside and teams exploit it, especially elite teams like the Spurs.

I don't care what you classify Brad, we need a big rebounder/shot blocker etc that clogs the middle and scares the crap out of people from running at our basket without being put down or at least contested. Brad, Mike, and Ron our the nucleus of the team good or bad. I know Brad is slow, but he is one of the best Centers, if you want to call him such. He just needs a sidekick that will back him up and play guard our basket.

We have enough perimeter defense in Bonzi and Ron, but we need that big burly stud to guard the basket and dish out some beatings on opponents like Parker etc coming in on our basket. Even a guy like Ostertag did great in limited minutes and got his blocks and rebounds and changed the game and that was only for a few minutes off the bench.....how good would it be to see that kind of intensity from a starter?

I like K9 and this isn't a bash against him, but he is way to small to play PF, I'd like to see Brad move to PF, SAR off the bench and us to get a big true defense center in the middle. Then we would be playing with fire. Nene, Dalembert, Chandler, Prizbilla, etc would be so awesome.

The bottom line is Brad does give us offense and little to no defense as does Bibby, that is a problem, but something that can be dealt with with bringing in big Center. I hope we keep Bonzi. We are 1 to 2 players away from being serious about winning this whole thing and giving SA, Dallas, and the other elite teams a run for their money.

[AriesMar27]

what about nene?

[Larry89]

I was thinking the same thing to move Brad to PF which he really is anyways. I know he is slow and all, but he does shoot well and is a cornerstone to out offense, how weird that it is.

Like others have said, we have a PG that is our SG (Bibby), a SG that is our PF (Bonzi), a C who is a Forward of some sort (Miller), and a PF who is our Center at 6' 7" (K9). How weird it is, we actually win games, but we are glaring weakness is that we are softer than a twinkee inside and teams exploit it, especially elite teams like the Spurs.

I don't care what you classify Brad, we need a big rebounder/shot blocker etc that clogs the middle and scares the crap out of people from running at our basket without being put down or at least contested. Brad, Mike, and Ron our the nucleus of the team good or bad. I know Brad is slow, but he is one of the best Centers, if you want to call him such. He just needs a sidekick that will back him up and play guard our basket.

We have enough perimeter defense in Bonzi and Ron, but we need that big burly stud to guard the basket and dish out some beatings on opponents like Parker etc coming in on our basket. Even a guy like Ostertag did great in limited minutes and got his blocks and rebounds and changed the game and that was only for a few minutes off the bench.....how good would it be to see that kind of intensity from a starter?

I like K9 and this isn't a bash against him, but he is way to small to play PF, I'd like to see Brad move to PF, SAR off the bench and us to get a big true defense center in the middle. Then we would be playing with fire. Nene, Dalembert, Chandler, Prizbilla, etc would be so awesome.

The bottom line is Brad does give us offense and little to no defense as does Bibby, that is a problem, but something that can be dealt with with bringing in big Center. I hope we keep Bonzi. We are 1 to 2 players away from being serious about winning this whole thing and giving SA, Dallas, and the other elite teams a run for their money.

I agree, we need a crazy *** scary mofo to clog to middle and swat balls into the nosebleed seats. :)

[SacKings4Life21]

I think Nene would be good... but his stats dont read shot blocker..., but he is big and strong.

[beemerr23]

lol, the people saying move brad miller to the PF position is just funny. Can you seriously see him going up against someone of Elton Brand's, Dirk, or Pau Gasol's caliber? They're all PFs and would absolutely crush Brad. Brad Miller needs to be packaged with Bonzi Wells for a Rebounding/Shotblocking C, and a SG who can spread the floor. As it stands now, we have 6'7 guys going into the lane trying to make things happen. This system will not win you a championship without amazing passers like Vlade/Webber were, it just won't happen with Bonzi/Artest. As it stands now, Brad Miller is totally the wrong fit for our team.

[beemerr23]

Our current players are basically doing things contrary to the conventional system. We have short guys trying battle down low for rebound. A point guard who plays like a shooting guard and a center who plays like a point guard. How many teams actually won a championship with a center who is the team's primary passer and has very weak interior defense? Why are the Kings keep trying to prove their awkward system actually works? It is time to build a team following the conventional system. ^^

We are now somewhat built for the playoffs with Artest, he brings defense and toughness to the team, something that the Playoffs require. It's pretty apparent that when Brad Miller is forced to do these things that a normal C does, he and the team crumbles.

[6th]

Over and over since Reef came, we get to hear how Brad, Bibby, and Adelman (who plays the Princeton O) must go. I just can't help but think that with them gone, and playing a more traditional game, then Shareef could be the star. Well, gag me. Reef can fit into our system or get shipped. The core and the whole friggen system don't have to change to make 1 guy who plays 1 way look good.

It's a shame. I really like Shareef. But, damn it is hard to like players when they have fans who care only about their guy and not about the Sacramento Kings. Pffft! :rolleyes:

[VF21]

lol, the people saying move brad miller to the PF position is just funny. Can you seriously see him going up against someone of Elton Brand's, Dirk, or Pau Gasol's caliber? They're all PFs and would absolutely crush Brad. Brad Miller needs to be packaged with Bonzi Wells for a Rebounding/Shotblocking C, and a SG who can spread the floor. As it stands now, we have 6'7 guys going into the lane trying to make things happen. This system will not win you a championship without amazing passers like Vlade/Webber were, it just won't happen with Bonzi/Artest. As it stands now, Brad Miller is totally the wrong fit for our team.

Brad Miller HAS played at the 4 in our system and he did a pretty good job of it. You must have missed that, too.

[beemerr23]

Brad Miller HAS played at the 4 in our system and he did a pretty good job of it. You must have missed that, too. You must not remember that he had Vlade Divac, one of the best all time passing Center's in the league. You must have forgotten that he had Chris Webber, one of the best passing Power Forwards. Now we have Bonzi Wells and Ron Artest. Sorry buddy, neither are exceptional passers. Next :)

[SacKings4Life21]

Ron is a very good playmaker...

And I wouldnt mind seeing brad at PF.. as long as we get a good center who is agile and athletic...

[GoGoGadget]

You must not remember that he had Vlade Divac, one of the best all time passing Center's in the league. You must have forgotten that he had Chris Webber, one of the best passing Power Forwards. Now we have Bonzi Wells and Ron Artest. Sorry buddy, neither are exceptional passers. Next :)

No, they're not exceptional passers.

But, you know who is, especially for his position?

I'll give you a hint: relliM darB

[beemerr23]

Over and over since Reef came, we get to hear how Brad, Bibby, and Adelman (who plays the Princeton O) must go. I just can't help but think that with them gone, and playing a more traditional game, then Shareef could be the star. Well, gag me. Reef can fit into our system or get shipped. The core and the whole friggen system don't have to change to make 1 guy who plays 1 way look good.

It's a shame. I really like Shareef. But, damn it is hard to like players when they have fans who care only about their guy and not about the Sacramento Kings. Pffft! :rolleyes: Who EVER said that Bibby has to go...? Shareef is very good off the bench and should definitely be kept. He's instant offense and plays ok defense, nothing great. If he also got more playtime, he'd get around 9 rebounds per/game, something our C should be doing.

[beemerr23]

No, they're not exceptional passers.

But, you know who is, especially for his position?

I'll give you a hint: relliM darB Yeah...that's cool I guess. Inform me when he starts to play defense and rebounds like a real C should lol

[VF21]

You said it wouldn't work to move Brad to the 4. I disagreed because, under the right circumstances, he can play the 4. I haven't forgotten. Your comment about Webber makes zero sense, considering Brad took Webber's place at the 4. You're mixing your comments/responses.

If we move Brad to the 4, there's a chance (hypothetically) that we could find a passing big man to replace him at the 5. Is there a big chance? Well, of course not.

And, another thing you apparently haven't noticed, is that Artest actually is doing pretty good in passing. He's led in assists several times and has served as the cut-off or middle man on a number of occasions. Those things, unfortunately, don't show up in the boxscores.

[VF21]

Yeah...that's cool I guess. Inform me when he starts to play defense and rebounds like a real C should lol

I'll make sure she sends you a memo because it's pretty obvious you wouldn't be able to figure it out for yourself. lol

[beemerr23]

You said it wouldn't work to move Brad to the 4. I disagreed because, under the right circumstances, he can play the 4. I haven't forgotten. Your comment about Webber makes zero sense, considering Brad took Webber's place at the 4. You're mixing your comments/responses.

If we move Brad to the 4, there's a chance (hypothetically) that we could find a passing big man to replace him at the 5. Is there a big chance? Well, of course not.

And, another thing you apparently haven't noticed, is that Artest actually is doing pretty good in passing. He's led in assists several times and has served as the cut-off or middle man on a number of occasions. Those things, unfortunately, don't show up in the boxscores. You missed the whole point of my post. It was to show you that Brad Miller at the 4 with Bonzi at the 2 and Artest at the 3 will not work because they aren't great passers like Vlade and Webber were. They got away with the Princeton style offense because we possessed great passers, something we do not have right now. Now, if Brad was at the 4, a solid C that can shot block/rebound at the 5, and a shooting guard at the 2 who can spread the floor, I'm all for keeping Brad as he's a great passer like you said. Artest is getting asissts because he has the ball in his hands on almost every possession. Right now, he's our go-to guy, so having a great passing C doesn't do much good..

Regarding your last post, are you implying he does play good D and rebounds? lol

[GoGoGadget]

Yeah...that's cool I guess. Inform me when he starts to play defense and rebounds like a real C should lol

I'll be glad to, so long as you return the favor and send me a memo the second that your response has anything to do with my comment.

At no point have I ever said that Brad Miller's defense and rebounding is up to par. Never.

[beemerr23]

lol so how does your post relate with anything I've said? that's like me just randomly posting "Yea Smush Parker isn't a good shooting point guard...but you know who is? Mike Bibby" Yea...so what lol

[VF21]

You missed the whole point of my post. It was to show you that Brad Miller at the 4 with Bonzi at the 2 and Artest at the 3 will not work because they aren't great passers like Vlade and Webber were. They got away with the Princeton style offense because we possessed great passers, something we do not have right now. Now, if Brad was at the 4, a solid C that can shot block/rebound at the 5, and a shooting guard at the 2 who can spread the floor, I'm all for keeping Brad as he's a great passer like you said. Artest is getting asissts because he has the ball in his hands on almost every possession. Right now, he's our go-to guy, so having a great passing C doesn't do much good..

Regarding your last post, are you implying he does play good D and rebounds? lol

I also miss the unicorns and dragons flying overhead...lol.

[GoGoGadget]

You missed the whole point of my post. It was to show you that Brad Miller at the 4 with Bonzi at the 2 and Artest at the 3 will not work because they aren't great passers like Vlade and Webber were. They got away with the Princeton style offense because we possessed great passers, something we do not have right now. Now, if Brad was at the 4, a solid C that can shot block/rebound at the 5, and a shooting guard at the 2 who can spread the floor, I'm all for keeping Brad as he's a great passer like you said. Artest is getting asissts because he has the ball in his hands on almost every possession. Right now, he's our go-to guy, so having a great passing C doesn't do much good..

:confused: :confused:

Clearly I'm missing something here.

We can't play Brad at the 4 because Ron and Bonzi aren't great passers... unless we get a center who rebounds/block shots (but doesn't pass), at which point we could play Brad at the 4 even though Ron and Bonzi aren't great passers...

wait...

that can't be it...



Are you completely missing your own point, or am I taking crazy pills?

[Kings113]

Artest isn't a bad or okay passer, he's a solid/good one.

[GoGoGadget]

lol so how does your post relate with anything I've said? that's like me just randomly posting "Yea Smush Parker isn't a good shooting point guard...but you know who is? Mike Bibby" Yea...so what lol

How does my post relate to yours?

I s'pose it doesn't, really.

Unless, of course, you stop and think about the fact that you're advocating the trade of the team's second best passer while simultaneously commenting that the team doesn't currently have enough good passers.

[beemerr23]

:confused: :confused:

Clearly I'm missing something here.

We can't play Brad at the 4 because Ron and Bonzi aren't great passers... unless we get a center who rebounds/block shots (but doesn't pass), at which point we could play Brad at the 4 even though Ron and Bonzi aren't great passers...

wait...

that can't be it...



Are you completely missing your own point, or am I taking crazy pills? what the... did you completely miss the part where i said and a shooting guard that can spread the floor? Also, I said in order for the princeton-style offense to work and be effecient, we need better passers in Artest and Bonzi. As long as they are here, the princeton-style offense will not work. If Bonzi and Artest are staying, you might as well go with the conventional team and get rid of a C who doesn't rebound/play D.

[VF21]

If Bonzi and Artest are staying, you might as well go with the conventional team and get rid of a C who doesn't rebound/play D.

Fine. We'll get rid of him. We'll move him to the 4 and bring in a center who can rebound and play D.

Problem solved...

[beemerr23]

Fine. We'll get rid of him. We'll move him to the 4 and bring in a center who can rebound and play D.

Problem solved... Eh, not really...though it could work decently. He would be forced to play people like Duncan, Dirk, and Brand while our C (use Wilcox JUST FOR EXAMPLE!) would be stuck playing Nazr Mohammad and Erick Dampier. Do you see the mismatch at the PF position? I know I do...

edit: I also think we could greatly benefit by having a SG who can step out and make the 3 consistently to allow Artest more room to operate with inside, Shareef too.

[GoGoGadget]

Eh, not really...though it could work decently. He would be forced to play people like Duncan, Dirk, and Brand while our C (use Wilcox JUST FOR EXAMPLE!) would be stuck playing Nazr Mohammad and Erick Dampier. Do you see the mismatch at the PF position? I know I do...

This is where I get confused. You yourself mentioned that moving Brad to PF would be an acceptable plan if we got a center that rebounded/blocked shots because he was such a good passer.

Now, if Brad was at the 4, a solid C that can shot block/rebound at the 5, and a shooting guard at the 2 who can spread the floor, I'm all for keeping Brad as he's a great passer like you said.

Yet, VF21 suggests it, and you disagree.

So, I've gotta wonder, are you confused, or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

[VF21]

This is where I get confused. You yourself mentioned that moving Brad to PF would be an acceptable plan if we got a center that rebounded/blocked shots because he was such a good passer.



Yet, VF21 suggests it, and you disagree.

So, I've gotta wonder, are you confused, or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

DING! DING! DING!!!!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!!!

Congratulations, G3.

http://www.techhelpers.net/e4u/animal/1118.gif

[SacKings4Life21]

I dont know why people are saying that there would be mismatcs on Defesne if we moved brad to the 4... last time I checked, anyone can guard anyone... so reguardless, brad would match up againts his best matchup. If we got a athletic center guy... he would guard the Duncan, KG's...

Oh and ron is a very acceptable passer...

[beemerr23]

This is where I get confused. You yourself mentioned that moving Brad to PF would be an acceptable plan if we got a center that rebounded/blocked shots because he was such a good passer.



Yet, VF21 suggests it, and you disagree.

So, I've gotta wonder, are you confused, or are you just arguing for the sake of it? I'm pretty positive you seem to avoid the shooting guard option I keep mentioning. This time, I won't add in anything else so you won't forget about it. I'm not arguiging at all, I'm simply stating my opinion

[Rome]

PF's are generally quicker then Centers like Brad Miller so that would not be a mismatch at all because Brad is totally ineffective when a player is stepping into the high post and actually guarding Miller. What would make more sense is keeping Miller at the center spot but getting a PF who can play help defense and rebound/block shots.

If Rick Adelman leaves then i think Miller should leave too. Imagine if Avery Johnson was our coach. Brad Miller would be hearing it from the coach every second for not playing defense or rebounding.

[VF21]

I dont know why people are saying that there would be mismatcs on Defesne if we moved brad to the 4... last time I checked, anyone can guard anyone... so reguardless, brad would match up againts his best matchup. If we got a athletic center guy... he would guard the Duncan, KG's...

Oh and ron is a very acceptable passer...

Psst? SK4L21? Be careful. If you get dragged too deeply into this, you will start to see double and you'll have ringing in your ears.

This is a NO LOGIC zone.

[GoGoGadget]

I'm pretty positive you seem to avoid the shooting guard option I keep mentioning. This time, I won't add in anything else so you won't forget about it. I'm not arguiging at all, I'm simply stating my opinion

The only thing I'm avoiding when it comes to your suggestion of a shooting guard is pointing out how successful we were with Brad at PF, Vlade at C and Doug Christie's streaky shooting at SG.

[beemerr23]

I dont know why people are saying that there would be mismatcs on Defesne if we moved brad to the 4... last time I checked, anyone can guard anyone... so reguardless, brad would match up againts his best matchup. If we got a athletic center guy... he would guard the Duncan, KG's...

Oh and ron is a very acceptable passer... Well...lets say our athletic center took KG or someone of his kind then. That leaves the C position to be guarded, Miller does not play good enough defense to stop them down in the post, see career games for Kwame, Jerome James, and Adonal Foyle. Either way you put it, Miller is slow and plays soft defense, so it's still a mismatch. The only thing he could help us with is on the offensive end, where his passing skills could greatly compliment a good shooting guard.

[beemerr23]

If Rick Adelman leaves then i think Miller should leave too. Imagine if Avery Johnson was our coach. Brad Miller would be hearing it from the coach every second for not playing defense or rebounding. And he's one of the leading candidates for Coach of the Year, imagine that. Take notes Adelman!

[Rome]

Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Kenny Thomas
6-7 PF from New Mexico
9.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 2.0 apg in 28.0 minutes

Francisco Garcia
6-7 SF from Louisville
5.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes
Incoming

Troy Hudson
6-1 PG from Southern Illinois
9.5 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 22.1 minutes

Eddie Griffin
6-10 PF from Seton Hall
4.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.4 minutes
Change in team outlook: -0.6 ppg, -3.5 rpg, and +0.1 apg.

Minnesota Trade Breakdown
Outgoing

Troy Hudson
6-1 PG from Southern Illinois
9.5 ppg, 1.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 22.1 minutes

Eddie Griffin
6-10 PF from Seton Hall
4.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 0.6 apg in 19.4 minutes
Incoming

Kenny Thomas
6-7 PF from New Mexico
9.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 2.0 apg in 28.0 minutes

Francisco Garcia
6-7 SF from Louisville
5.6 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 1.4 apg in 19.3 minutes
Change in team outlook: +0.6 ppg, +3.5 rpg, and -0.1 apg.


Successful Scenario
Due to Sacramento and Minnesota being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Sacramento and Minnesota had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Sacramento: They get a great shotblocker/rebounder in Griffin and a awsome 6th man in Hudson. This would help the Kings weaknesses in rebounding and defense.

Minnisota: They get rid of the big contract of Troy Hudson. They've been unhappy with Griffin. They get a great rebounder in case they trade KG and they also get a young G/F in Garcia. Great way to start rebuilding the franchise.

[VF21]

I refuse to allow anyone who resembles PippiLongstocking to be seriously considered as a King.

;)

[Rome]

http://www.ifi.uio.no/~thomas/lists/images/pippi01.jpg http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/Troy_Hudson-arton21010-240x240.jpg

Well he doesn't resemble PippiLongstocking in this comparison. :)

[VF21]

No, in that one he actually looks more like a young Whoopi Goldberg.

;)

He's got game but the dude REALLY needs to do something about his hair.

[LPKingsFan]

I agree. I hated Spree and Fortson for other reasons, but Hudson can't be King unless he does something about the hair too.

[Troy]

Why are we so reliant on the "Princeton" system anyways? We did after all change a lot with the addition of Artest and the subtraction of Peja. Why do we have a Center that plays like a PG and a PG that plays like a SG and a SG that plays like the forward or Power Guard???? This team is so unconventional which is o.k. except we are have a softer interior than a twinkie and have to hang any hope of getting rebounds on a given night to our 6'5" SG and 6'7" PF while our 7' Center is playing outside taking shots and passing instead of playing by the basket and getting rebounds or posting up and scoring. I know we are good no post up guys, but our a Center should be able to do this and have a hook shot or something. I know Brad is a good shooter which creates it's own mismatch when the opponents center needs to play out to guard him, but I much rather have a traditional center that stays close to the basket and has a presence. We can only hope right??? The offseason should be interesting.

[Kings113]

Brad does do a hook shot occasionally, but needs to do it more.

[Bricklayer]

1) OFFENSIVELY Brad Miller is actually a BETTER fit for this current squad than a traditional low post type center would be. We've got all kinds of post players, and need somebody who can shoot a jumper to create space. In addition, Brad is the best passer at his position in the league -- more important than ever with the Vlade/Webb/Doug trio moving on.

2) Its on DEFENSE where Brad's shortcomings are deadly. And for these purposes rebounding will be considered part of defense. In some way I still do not fully understand, this offseason we intentionally surrounded Brad Miller with Kenny Thomas, Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Peja Stojakovic. All three of whom have played SF in their careers. There was no hope there. And that has to change next season. We need at LEAST one shotblocker/rebounder in there (the teams most likely to play for a title this year have considerably more than that). With Brad as your center, I could even argue that EVERYBODY else getting minutes on the frontline should be a shotblocker, but we don't do that in Kingsland, and Reef's offense sure is nice off the bench. Strictly speaking you do NOT need your center to be doing your rebounding and shotblocking. It just makes sense and is the easiest thing to balance. But you need SOMEBODY to do those things. If we had that person or persons, Brad's deficiencies become things we want from him, rather than things we need from him.

We didn't lose that game on Saturday on offense. We lost it on defense. We scored 88. About normal for a Spurs opponent. They scored 122. 122!

P.S. Skillset aside, the other issue with Brad of course is his passivity and competitiveness. It wasn't his lack of skills that caused the 4pt 1reb performance, it was a lack of aggression and competitiveness. Reagrdless of what he does well or not well, Brad is far better than 4 and 1. But he has to compete. And he doesn't always.

[nbrans]

^Yeah, exactly.

I don't necessarily fault Petrie for bringing in SAR because he was the best available free agent and there wasn't a good rebounder/shotblocker available, but hopefully it will be addressed this offseason. I also don't think that Petrie or anyone else could have anticipated that Brad would turn into a complete wuss this season. He was supposed to be Vlade with toughness and an edge, and instead he played softer than just about anyone in the league.

And to all the trad-brad people, like I said, if you want to get rid of Brad you'd better find someone better. The people calling for his head still haven't come up with a realistic/logical plan to find a better player.

[beemerr23]

1) OFFENSIVELY Brad Miller is actually a BETTER fit for this current squad than a traditional low post type center would be. We've got all kinds of post players, and need somebody who can shoot a jumper to create space. In addition, Brad is the best passer at his position in the league -- more important than ever with the Vlade/Webb/Doug trio moving on.

2) Its on DEFENSE where Brad's shortcomings are deadly. And for these purposes rebounding will be considered part of defense. In some way I still do not fully understand, this offseason we intentionally surrounded Brad Miller with Kenny Thomas, Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Peja Stojakovic. All three of whom have played SF in their careers. There was no hope there. And that has to change next season. We need at LEAST one shotblocker/rebounder in there (the teams most likely to play for a title this year have considerably more than that). With Brad as your center, I could even argue that EVERYBODY else getting minutes on the frontline should be a shotblocker, but we don't do that in Kingsland, and Reef's offense sure is nice off the bench. Strictly speaking you do NOT need your center to be doing your rebounding and shotblocking. It just makes sense and is the easiest thing to balance. But you need SOMEBODY to do those things. If we had that person or persons, Brad's deficiencies become things we want from him, rather than things we need from him.

We didn't lose that game on Saturday on offense. We lost it on defense. We scored 88. About normal for a Spurs opponent. They scored 122. 122!

P.S. Skillset aside, the other issue with Brad of course is his passivity and competitiveness. It wasn't his lack of skills that caused the 4pt 1reb performance, it was a lack of aggression and competitiveness. Reagrdless of what he does well or not well, Brad is far better than 4 and 1. But he has to compete. And he doesn't always. I agree completely with everything you said, especially on the game breakdown and the last part about Brad. However, yes Brad is an excellent passer for his position, but you mentioned how we need someone who can take a jumper and create space for others. This is what I've been saying all along, if we had a SG who could do that, then Brad COULD stay because the SG could benefit from his passes and spread the floor. I also agree that having a good PF to help cover Brad's weaknesses could help the team, but it'd be nice if Brad did that..

Either way, get rid of Brad or not, we still need that SG who can spread the floor imo (in my opinion).

[MrBiggs]

7 foot skilled centers are difficult to come by. You do not give up on a guy like that unless you're getting major talent back in the process.

Unfortunately, he's hinted that he doesnt want Sacramento to be his permanent home. He's frustrated here and he's hinted that he wants to leave. He's no longer enthousiastic on his weekly radio show and he's flat out said that he prefers to retire in Indiana.

I wouldn't say that he's been banking it like Peja obviously has been but he lacks passion in Sacramento.

He'd be better off elsewhere. Where exactly should he go? I have no clue but a lot of things have to change about this team. I do not forsee Brad Miller gaining back his intensity with the Kings.

[tyrant]

after THAT performance on saturday. TRADE HIS A*****************************************

[tyrant]

well back on topic. you said move brad to the pf if we get a center that can play defense and make shots, then you said that if this happens brad miller will be forced to matchup against quicker pf's and get toasted. here's a solution. i see why they were confused.

[beemerr23]

well back on topic. you said move brad to the pf if we get a center that can play defense and make shots, then you said that if this happens brad miller will be forced to matchup against quicker pf's and get toasted. here's a solution. i see why they were confused. I said it could work "decently", I also said it would benefit Brad to have a good shooting guard who can benefit from his passes. Either way, we're still at a mismatch because of his soft D.

[tyrant]

ok, move brad miller to center. vlade was as slow as they came, but the kings still rolled because they were so skilled and they had webber. switch brad to center and get a talented power forward. this will help our defense in the paint and spread the offense. lets go after brand.

[beemerr23]

ok, move brad miller to center. vlade was as slow as they came, but the kings still rolled because they were so skilled and they had webber. switch brad to center and get a talented power forward. this will help our defense in the paint and spread the offense. lets go after brand. Well there's no question getting a Solid PF would help Brad's cause and getting someone of MVP caliber like Brand could never hurt a team. :D But yes, if we had someone taller than 6'7 at the PF position we'd certainly be better off.

[tyrant]

problem solved

[beemerr23]

Agreed, now how to get someone like Brand or KG :p

[PFFFT!!]

Brad is making his money....after all, wasn't he the guy who told an Indiana reporter that "hes got all the money in the world he's ever wanted, now hes just waiting until he can go back to the Pacers after his stint here ends"? Sorta like winning the Lotto and working your old janitorial job. Most would probably take an early retirement. :\

[VF21]

NOTE: Some posts in this thread have been deleted for administrative purposes.

Thank you.

[HndsmCelt]

Trade Brad... well nothing like a simple knee jerk reaction to a comlex problem.
1. Ok I'll bite, REALISTICALY trade him for who?
2. Seriously now... Brick has pointed out the big pluss Brad brings to the offense... suffice it to say no other center out there can bring the high post ball distribution and outside shooting.

Reasonably speaking it is MUCH more likely to find a PF who can play tougher inside than Reef or Kenny and that is where the Kings will have to look.

[GameBall]

It's very easy to talk about trading a player after he has a terrible game (only one rebound). Brad can still turn it around in Game 2. However, having said all that, I think if we can get someone in return, I think it's time to trade him. He makes mediocre opposing centers (Joe Prizbilla, anyone??) look like Shaq. Also, he has lost all confidence in his shot. He is displaying the demeanor that Peja had before he was traded, where his heart just doesn't seem to be there. Maybe it is there, but it doesn't seem like it.

[SacTownKid]

lol, the people saying move brad miller to the PF position is just funny. Can you seriously see him going up against someone of Elton Brand's, Dirk, or Pau Gasol's caliber? They're all PFs and would absolutely crush Brad. Brad Miller needs to be packaged with Bonzi Wells for a Rebounding/Shotblocking C, and a SG who can spread the floor. As it stands now, we have 6'7 guys going into the lane trying to make things happen. This system will not win you a championship without amazing passers like Vlade/Webber were, it just won't happen with Bonzi/Artest. As it stands now, Brad Miller is totally the wrong fit for our team.

Next time we play the Clipps see who Brad gaurds. It may surprise you.

[SacTownKid]

This is where I get confused. You yourself mentioned that moving Brad to PF would be an acceptable plan if we got a center that rebounded/blocked shots because he was such a good passer.



Yet, VF21 suggests it, and you disagree.

So, I've gotta wonder, are you confused, or are you just arguing for the sake of it?

Oooh. snap. :cool:

[Rome]

Someone mentioned earlier that having only one good passer doesn't have an big impact. Brad is a good center but right now he isn't any better then say P.J Brown. Thats if you like centers who can "spread the floor".

Every team has to have an identity. The Phoenix Suns have a fast paced style of game. The Spurs have a roster of all defensive players. The Mavs have a coach that drown the Mavs player with defense. Our team has no indentiy. Not to mention they don't know how to communicate on the defense end.

If we try trading KT we can't get anything in return. Our only hope would be trading Brad+KT+Bonzi for a nice PF/C +SG.

[AriesMar27]

nene is the key.... too bad denver traded watson.... it could have been nene and watson for miller....

[Rome]

nene is the key.... too bad denver traded watson.... it could have been nene and watson for miller....

Nene would be nice. I would trade Brad for Nene and a quality Guard in a second.

[SacKings4Life21]

denver wants nene... kmart will get shipped soon

[rexb_kings]

i have a feeling when we get rid of B.Miller, Bibby will be next. Then and only then the Kings will have all tough players. Might as well build around Artest and Bonzi, with our young guns. Maybe we'll win it all by then.

[Padrino]

i have a feeling when we get rid of B.Miller, Bibby will be next. Then and only then the Kings will have all tough players. Might as well build around Artest and Bonzi, with our young guns. Maybe we'll win it all by then.

bibby's tough as nails and cold as ice. he's a poor defender, but the dude's a trooper-and-a-half. he's played nearly the entire season with all sorts of bumps and bruises, and i've never heard a word of complaint from his mouth. he never makes excuses, and while his poor defense is clearly an important deficiency, i don't think it would be all that pertinent to trade one of the league's best shooting PG's. of course, that doesn't mean the maloofs wouldn't do it--they've traded the heart and soul of this team before--but it doesn't mean they should.

[BMiller52]

If they traded Mike this offseason I'd be very pissed off. The guy goes out there and plays his hardest. He's our best shooter and he's a good passer. There are a lot of PGs that don't defend well in the league but their teams get by. Get Mike some shotblockers and we'll be fine.

I have a feeling Denver ships out Kenyon so they can re-sign Nene.

To be honest, I want Petrie to try to trade up in the draft and grab Aldridge or Thomas.

[Bricklayer]

Mike is tough in every way except one. He rarely misses a game. He loves the big moments.

And lest I have to remind everyone again, we KNOW Mike Bibby can be the starting PG on a 60+win championship level team. One of only two Kings we can say that about.

[BMiller52]

Mike is tough in every way except one. He rarely misses a game. He loves the big moments.

And lest I have to remind everyone again, we KNOW Mike Bibby can be the starting PG on a 60+win championship level team. One of only two Kings we can say that about.


Who's the other one? Ron?

[Bricklayer]

Who's the other one? Ron?

Yes. Starting SF for a 60+win ECF team himself. Of course he then proceeded to rip that team to shreds, but nonetheless, he's the other guy who's proven he can hang and contribute at the elite level.

Bonzi was also on a great 59 win WCF Portland team back there, but he was a reserve at the time.

[CruzDude]

My view on Brad is one item: where is the overall benefit from his high post game and some passing and outside shooting
vs.
really bad defense in middle and no low post game, little or no shot blocking, and very slow to cut off opposing players having layup practice at Kings expense.

Sure he is a great guy but is his offensive benefits exceeding his defensive liabilities? sure doesn't look like it past few months and especially in playoffs.

But before we trade him one has to take an honest look at who would want Brad and what would they give up to get him? Or how do we get something closer to what is needed then who would take Brad? Probably only via a 3 way trade or going after a free agent then putting Brad on bench.

His flashes of being really good are few and far between. If we wear GM hats and owner hats for a minute, image what the Maloofs are seeing and they are as rabid fans as any of us.

Next topic is bound to be our 4's, KT and SAR.

[Rome]

Thats it I don't care what you folks say, I want Brad Miller OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[captain bill]

Tonight showed what we need: depth, 3pt shooters, a defensive stopper on the inside. Offense seemed to do just find without Brad tonight. Why should a whole season be different?

[Rome]

i dont understand why some people are just ready to throw him away..there are not alot of centers out there better than him, i wonder if this thread will die down if brad goes the next game 15 11 and 5..and kenny thomas when asked about the lack of rebounds had a good point..there were not alot of rebounds for the kings to get tonight..i dont think thats an excuse for brad having 1 rebound at all..but it is 1 game

Thats 2 games and counting....

Im serious guys. Whats so special about Brad. You want to talk about a playoff choker then lets talk about the Brad. He constantly lets any center in the playoffs like Jerome James abuse him while contributing very little in the offensive end. What good is it when your center gets 15 pts but gives up 20 to skrubs like Foyle. And thats if your even lucky to get 15 pts from Miller.

[SacTownKid]

Tonight showed what we need: depth, 3pt shooters, a defensive stopper on the inside. Offense seemed to do just find without Brad tonight. Why should a whole season be different?

You left out a re-signed Bonzi Wells. ;)

Don't forget Brad is having to adjust, although that is no excuse for his lack of effort and success in every other aspect of the game.

[Rome]

You left out a re-signed Bonzi Wells. ;)

Don't forget Brad is having to adjust, although that is no excuse for his lack of effort and success in every other aspect of the game.

Wow give me a break, how many playoff games does it take for "Brad to adjust" He has had all the time he can get and yet some how finds a way to play no defense and now recently play no offense.

Brad = Playoff Choker. Even more then Peja.

[Troy]

Wow give me a break, how many playoff games does it take for "Brad to adjust" He has had all the time he can get and yet some how finds a way to play no defense and now recently play no offense.

Brad = Playoff Choker. Even more then Peja.

I see Brad wanting to go to the Pacers sooner than later with his Pejaness lack of effort. He is making it rather easy to want him off the team. I know he can play better. He is a 7 footer after all and is getting man handled by 6 footers. It's like he is playing the game in a pool of water, he is so slow. I keep having to check my tv to make sure I'm not in slow mo. :D

[NBAGURU]

I see Brad wanting to go to the Pacers sooner than later with his Pejaness lack of effort. He is making it rather easy to want him off the team. I know he can play better. He is a 7 footer after all and is getting man handled by 6 footers. It's like he is playing the game in a pool of water, he is so slow. I keep having to check my tv to make sure I'm not in slow mo. :D


I remember hearing Indiana cleaning house. I say trade Miller and K. thomas for Jermaine Oneal.

[Bricklayer]

I remember hearing Indiana cleaning house. I say trade Miller and K. thomas for Jermaine Oneal.

Er...yeah, and the Pacer swould go for that? ;)

Besides, we really can't add Jermaine for the simple reason that he was apparently one of the significant problems for Ron in Indy.

IF I was going to try to trade Brad inot the general region near home, I'm maybe thinking back to Chicago. IF.

[BMiller52]

I remember hearing Indiana cleaning house. I say trade Miller and K. thomas for Jermaine Oneal.


There's no way they'd do that. I'm fine with trading Brad now, I'm sick of his lack of effort. Defense isn't all athleticism, look at a guy like Andres Nocioni. It's EFFORT, and HUSTLE. Rebounding is effort and boxing out too-Brad doesn't box out or try as hard as he can. He seriously makes playing basketball look effortless-well if you want to play like a scrub that is.

[Troy]

Er...yeah, and the Pacer swould go for that? ;)

Besides, we really can't add Jermaine for the simple reason that he was apparently one of the significant problems for Ron in Indy.

IF I was going to try to trade Brad inot the general region near home, I'm maybe thinking back to Chicago. IF.

Tyson Chander and Duon would be nice. We could package KT with Brad and/or add Corliss for an expiring contract. Brad is showing more and more than he doesn't want to be in Sacto and we thus don't want him. No more Peja like 1/2 arsed efforts, we need someone not merly going threw the motions like in slow mo.

Bonzi is a keeper. He really put on a clinic in the 1st 1/2 especially. It didn't matter than 3 or 4 big Spur players were around the basket, he just went through them.

[yanon]

Bricklayer,

Chris Wilcox might turn into the next Shawn Kemp (when he wasn't fat). Ben Wallace wasn't all that until he arrive in Detroit and find a the correct system in which he can flourish.

[Gilles]

Chris Wilcox might turn into the next Shawn Kemp (when he wasn't fat). Ben Wallace wasn't all that until he arrive in Detroit and find a the correct system in which he can flourish.You could say about Ben that he would have a nice career after a season with Bullets when both Webber and Howard repeatedly complained that Ben was too physical for them and was killing them in practice. It was time when there still were quite a few enforcers in the league.
To get Wilcox you will have to overpay him badly: with modern prices he easily can get 10mln/y which means overpaying is something like 12 mln/y. And you'll have to give Seattle something valuable to agree to trade their ideal as it seems PF of the future. Plus Wilcox is average personal and poor help defender though he's quite outstanding among Sonics. ;)

[SLAB]

Im on this bandwagon now.

Brad decided to take his annuall leave of absense...Unfortunatly he's not injured and his leave is affecting his on the court play.

He's been pathetic.

[KMart23]

i love how brad does sissy fouls and allows the other team to get the AND 1. it's a beautiful thing to watch.

[KMart23]

at least he knows not to send the message that he's in the paint.

[M10Bibby]

I remember hearing Indiana cleaning house. I say trade Miller and K. thomas for Jermaine Oneal.


then ud have to pick ron artest or JO....lol

[venom_7]

My view on Brad is one item: where is the overall benefit from his high post game and some passing and outside shooting
vs.
really bad defense in middle and no low post game, little or no shot blocking, and very slow to cut off opposing players having layup practice at Kings expense.

Sure he is a great guy but is his offensive benefits exceeding his defensive liabilities? sure doesn't look like it past few months and especially in playoffs.

But before we trade him one has to take an honest look at who would want Brad and what would they give up to get him? Or how do we get something closer to what is needed then who would take Brad? Probably only via a 3 way trade or going after a free agent then putting Brad on bench.

His flashes of being really good are few and far between. If we wear GM hats and owner hats for a minute, image what the Maloofs are seeing and they are as rabid fans as any of us.

Next topic is bound to be our 4's, KT and SAR.

When he tries, he is good at defense. Its not like he isn't able to do it. Someone needs to motivate him.

[PFFFT!!]

When he tries, he is good at defense. Its not like he isn't able to do it. Someone needs to motivate him.

If I had his salary, that would be motivation enough for me. Unfortunately this dude takes it for granted, so what else bigger than his salary will motivate him? :\

[justthisonce]

maybe brad needs to be hypnotized to see the opposing players as mallard ducks or deers...

[Bricklayer]

If I had his salary, that would be motivation enough for me. Unfortunately this dude takes it for granted, so what else bigger than his salary will motivate him? :\

Salaries rarely motivate guys. Sometimes the opposite in fact. People compete and play the game with passion in college, in high school, even on the playgrounds. Its not about the money.

I just think that Brad is not the greatest most natural aggressive competitor type. And while people often "like" players like that because they seem like nice guys, it can be problematic when you have to constantly be trying to stoke the fires in there to get best performance.

[FrenchCanadianKING]

Where do we rank in the league in terms of Blocked Shots per game? I bet it's pretty darn low, but does anyone know exactly?

[SacKings4Life21]

I looked on yahoo... he isnt even registerable... he is at .78 a game.... only.9 get registered... woot. so like less than top 100

[Bricklayer]

Where do we rank in the league in terms of Blocked Shots per game? I bet it's pretty darn low, but does anyone know exactly?

I believe we finished 26th. We were pathetic. Our best shotblocker is a swingman who doesn't play. We traded the only guy in the frontcourt who could block MY shot, let alone an NBAers.

That's not just Brad of course.

[Fillmoe]

our best shotblocker is francisco garcia

[Rome]

Brad Miller's playoff average: 9.7 ppg, 2.4 apg, 6.5 rpg, .59 bpg.

Jumping ability = 1 mm.

Last year let Jerome James average a career 18 ppg in the PO when he is only suppose to be averaging 4 ppg.

People loved to point out how Peja was a playoff choker but now I think its time to point those fingers to Brad as well. Look how it turned out with Peja being traded. Maybe if we got a center who can play better defense and rebound it might work out. Tyson Chandler anyone? And then we can get sign a forward who can "spread the floor" as well as collect rebounds and play defense.

[Kings113]

I bet Eddie Griffin gets his shot back for next season over the summer. :) Also, while he wouldn't be one of my top choices, Lorenzen Wright has a legit mid-range jump-shot. Francisco Elson has also proven he has a 15-18 ft jumpshot when he gets minutes (like in his 47 starts).

All three have athleticism, good rebounders, and only Wright isn't a shot-blocker.

[West_Gunslinger16]

Is there a book called "How To Trade Brad For Alonzo Mourning" in Amazon.com? Because if there's such book I will definitely buy 20 copies of it!

P.S. 1 copy for me, 1 for my library and 18 will be given to selected members of the Kingsfans.com!

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I bet Eddie Griffin gets his shot back for next season over the summer. :) Also, while he wouldn't be one of my top choices, Lorenzen Wright has a legit mid-range jump-shot. Francisco Elson has also proven he has a 15-18 ft jumpshot when he gets minutes (like in his 47 starts).

All three have athleticism, good rebounders, and only Wright isn't a shot-blocker.Wright is only acceptable as a center if you have an elite power forward, like Gasol... or Garnett. Wright and Thomas and/or Abdur-Rahim ain't gonna cut it.

So, if there were anyway we could finagle a trade for Garnett, I'd be all for signing Wright at center. Otherwise... a big "meh."

[16to93]

All we need to do is paste redneck jokes all over the opposing players.

[Kings113]

Well, I meant he could play PF or come off the bench as a C/PF. But, like I said, wouldn't be one of the top choices.

[SacTownKid]

Find a way to bring big Joel here. I think Brad and he could work in the frontcourt together. And keep Reef as our 6th man. That would rule. He would be 6th man of the year next year.

[Rome]

Find a way to bring big Joel here. I think Brad and he could work in the frontcourt together. And keep Reef as our 6th man. That would rule. He would be 6th man of the year next year.

Actually Joel + Brad lineup is too slow. Why not trade Brad + filler for Diaw. Diaw can spread the floor and pass. Even though he is 6'8 its not like Brad plays at his height... So it wouldn't matter. Then trade KT for Joel.

This is if you care about a center who can "spread the floor"

Otherwise we should get rid of Brad + Bonzi + Garcia for KG.

[Rome]

or trade brad to chicago for pick/Duhon

[SacKings4Life21]

or trade brad to chicago for pick/Duhon'


oooohhh ya and while we are at it... how about trading ronnie price for nash... lol

[SacTownKid]

Actually Joel + Brad lineup is too slow. Why not trade Brad + filler for Diaw. Diaw can spread the floor and pass. Even though he is 6'8 its not like Brad plays at his height... So it wouldn't matter. Then trade KT for Joel.

This is if you care about a center who can "spread the floor"

Otherwise we should get rid of Brad + Bonzi + Garcia for KG.
I disagree. We have a great defensive wing combo in Ron and Bonzi. Ron usually gaurds the perimeter PF's anyway, and with Joel at the basket it wouldn't matter anyway. Also, I think people discredit Joels athleticism. He is as quick as Reef at least.

It would be our own version of the twin towers. Are Duncan and Nazr too slow? Or Duncan and Rasho? I'd say a combo of Joel and Brad wouldn't be any slower than those two pairings.

And if we could get KG with that package then of course. But that ain't happening. They are NOT trading KG. The Twolves have said it and I believe them.

[SacTownKid]

Oh, and also I think that there is a possiblity that Joel could be brought here for the MLE. So at least its realistic.

[Rome]

I just don't can't see whats so special about Brad. I mean if you put any good shooting/passing small out there, they can do everything Brad does. Outside of shooting and passing is there anything that Brad can do that will help us win a championship?

Realistically if you put a SF with decent passing skills plus good shooting range wouldn't he basically be a Brad Miller except probably faster and better defensively?? Answer this....

Im not saying we should trade Brad for another Brad but thats how I see Brad. I just see him as a guard in a center's body. Every aspect of his game is like a G/SF. So whats so special about him?

[SacTownKid]

I just don't can't see whats so special about Brad. I mean if you put any good shooting/passing small out there, they can do everything Brad does. Outside of shooting and passing is there anything that Brad can do that will help us win a championship?

Realistically if you put a SF with decent passing skills plus good shooting range wouldn't he basically be a Brad Miller except probably faster and better defensively?? Answer this....

Im not saying we should trade Brad for another Brad but thats how I see Brad. I just see him as a guard in a center's body. Every aspect of his game is like a G/SF. So whats so special about him?

Brad brings the opposing teams center out of the paint. Because of the mismatches we have on the wings due to their post up skills, if they put a smaller player on him he'll just shoot right over the top.

A SF doesn't have the ability to bring out the opposing teams interior like Brad does. When Brad shoots well, we notice this more.

If nothing else it gives our post guys (Bonzi + Ron) room to work in the post. When these guys master how to punish those double teams it will be great for us, and nearly unstoppable.

I see shotblocking and experience as our last two mountains. We have a team that causes mismatch nightmares for any team. With our interior D problems solved, we could be hell for opposing teams on offense AND defense.

Even though our defense has been much better since Ron got here, we NEED that interior presence. This series shows that more than ever.

[Rome]

Brad brings the opposing teams center out of the paint. Because of the mismatches we have on the wings due to their post up skills, if they put a smaller player on him he'll just shoot right over the top.

A SF doesn't have the ability to bring out the opposing teams interior like Brad does. When Brad shoots well, we notice this more.

If nothing else it gives our post guys (Bonzi + Ron) room to work in the post. When these guys master how to punish those double teams it will be great for us, and nearly unstoppable.

I see shotblocking and experience as our last two mountains. We have a team that causes mismatch nightmares for any team. With our interior D problems solved, we could be hell for opposing teams on offense AND defense.

Even though our defense has been much better since Ron got here, we NEED that interior presence. This series shows that more than ever.

again... wouldn't a sf like Tim Thomas (who can shoot the lights out) bring the opposing center to guard him in the highpost? I mean if Tim Thomas got the wide open looks Brad does he would be draining threes all day which would make the opposing center guard him out of the paint which opens the paint for the wings just like Brad does...

[SacTownKid]

again... wouldn't a sf like Tim Thomas (who can shoot the lights out) bring the opposing center to guard him in the highpost?

Was Peja ever guarded by the opposing teams center?

[Rome]

Was Peja ever guarded by the opposing teams center?

have we ever put Peja at the center position??? If we did im sure the opposing center would worry ;)

[Bricklayer]

I just don't can't see whats so special about Brad. I mean if you put any good shooting/passing small out there, they can do everything Brad does. Outside of shooting and passing is there anything that Brad can do that will help us win a championship?

Realistically if you put a SF with decent passing skills plus good shooting range wouldn't he basically be a Brad Miller except probably faster and better defensively?? Answer this....

Im not saying we should trade Brad for another Brad but thats how I see Brad. I just see him as a guard in a center's body. Every aspect of his game is like a G/SF. So whats so special about him?

Precisely that he's a guard in a center's body. Other big men have a hard time dealing with that. Its like a great knuckleballer in baseball. The offspeed stuff throw the hitters off rhythm. Which is again why, sure, if you can go find yourself a power pitcher with a 98 mph fastball, I will take that every day over the knuckleballer. But the knuckleballer is far more effective than just a mediocre power guy with a 93 mph fastball.

In some primitive 1950's era basketball textbook it says:

PG -- passes the ball
OG -- shoots the ball
SF -- shoots the ball some more
PF -- posts up and rebounds
C -- rebounds and blocks shots

Or some such. That textbook is not only primitive, it can be wrong in its simplistic understanding of basketball. Brad is the mismatch guy that you use when you cannot win the battle straight up. We should spend this entire offseason looking to upgrade any and all of our frontcourt spots, but it has to be an overall UPGRADE. You don't win by having poor man's imitations of great players. I have publicly questioned whether Brad was really a championship quality center before, but he's certainly a helluva lot closer than a lot of other guys.

And if Brad comes back, he absolutely 100% HAS to rededicate himself on the glass. Being 14 and 10 is one thing. 14 and 7.8 quite another.

[Rome]

so what would happen if we put a guy like Boris Diaw or Tim Thomas at the center spot. wouldn't it be the same thing as in creating mismatches.

Because once Brad gets guarded by someone quicker he seems to be worthless.

Thats what the Suns do and it creates problems for opposing centers.

[Rome]

lol i feel like i keep repeating my self. its like Deja Vu.

[SacTownKid]

I think our mismatched team could work very well, and I would love to see it back next season with shotblocking next to Brad.

We could re-write the game of basketball

PG: Shoots the lights out
SG: Bangs, rebounds, destroys
SF: Crazy, intense, crazy
PF: Shooter, passer, high IQ
C: Rebounder, shotblocking

Now that is an "experiment" I wouldn't mind seeing. :eek:

[Rome]

I think our mismatched team could work very well, and I would love to see it back next season with shotblocking next to Brad.

We could re-write the game of basketball

PG: Shoots the lights out
SG: Bangs, rebounds, destroys
SF: Crazy, intense, crazy
PF: Shooter, passer, high IQ
C: Rebounder, shotblocking

Now that is an "experiment" I wouldn't mind seeing. :eek:

lol thanks for answering my question.... ;)

[SacTownKid]

so what would happen if we put a guy like Boris Diaw or Tim Thomas at the center spot. wouldn't it be the same thing as in creating mismatches.

Because once Brad gets guarded by someone quicker he seems to be worthless.

Thats what the Suns do and it creates problems for opposing centers.

We would be the Suns. You have to run a certain style to play a guy like Boris Diaw at C. One we seem to be moving away from at the current time. Their interior defense is worse than ours.

[Rome]

We would be the Suns. You have to run a certain style to play a guy like Boris Diaw at C. One we seem to be moving away from at the current time. Their interior defense is worse than ours.

The shots that I see Brad Miller get are from Bibby with the pick and pop. Diaw runs the same exact thing with Nash. I even saw it today against the Lakers..

[Bricklayer]

a) the Suns aren't going anywhere special until they get a bigger body back there (KT will help maybe, but likely stil not enough)

b) the Suns also have the player that we do not -- the guy who justifies their freak center. They have a 12reb 2blk a game PF (not even a true PF, but still gets the numbers). He covers for the soft guards at the 5. Which is of course exactly why that's what we should be in the market for -- a PF who plays the position "big", to cover for the center who plays his position "small".

[Rome]

a) the Suns aren't going anywhere special until they get a bigger body back there (KT will help maybe, but likely stil not enough)

b) the Suns also have the player that we do not -- the guy who justifies their freak center. They have a 12reb 2blk a game PF (not even a true PF, but still gets the numbers). He covers for the soft guards at the 5. Which is of course exactly why that's what we should be in the market for -- a PF who plays the position "big", to cover for the center who plays his position "small".

but they basically got there own "Brad Miller"
So that would mean where not going anywhere either.

[SacTownKid]

The shots that I see Brad Miller get are from Bibby with the pick and pop. Diaw runs the same exact thing with Nash. I even saw it today against the Lakers..

I am talking defensively. We'd be in the same boat. Brad is 7' 260, and he does play like it every once in awhile. He is simply a horrid help defender. Diaw is a talented, but he is a SG in a SG's body, playing C.

[Rome]

I am talking defensively. We'd be in the same boat. Brad is 7' 260, and he does play like it every once in awhile. He is simply a horrid help defender. Diaw is a talented, but he is a SG in a SG's body, playing C.
Oh really.... Its not like Brad plays like a 7'0 center. Diaw is probably a better defender then Brad because of his quickness. Plus he averages more blocks then Brad!!!! :eek:

[SacTownKid]

Also I think people underrate Brads shooting ability. He is a guy that has pretty much consistently shot at or above a 50% clip mostly on perimeter shots. That is..like..pretty good and stuff.

Compared to Diaw, well, he is 7', so he has basically 5 to 6 more inches to shoot over his opponent than Diaw.

[SacTownKid]

Oh really.... Its not like Brad plays like a 7'0 center. Diaw is probably a better defender then Brad because of his quickness. Plus he averages more blocks then Brad!!!! :eek:

They are as SOFT as we are in the middle. Tonights game against the Lakers proved it once again.

Its like trading an apple, for a smaller one. Still an apple.

[Rome]

Also I think people underrate Brads shooting ability. He is a guy that has pretty much consistently shot at or above a 50% clip mostly on perimeter shots. That is..like..pretty good and stuff.

Compared to Diaw, well, he is 7', so he has basically 5 to 6 more inches to shoot over his opponent than Diaw.

Yea but it don't matter because Brad can only hit wide open shots anyways. Its not like Brad is gonna kill you if you guard him. If you don't believe me just look at this series against San Antonio. Just agree with me lol. Diaw > Brad at the C spot. Diaw is even a better passer/defender.

[SacTownKid]

Yea but it don't matter because Brad can only hit wide open shots anyways. Its not like Brad is gonna kill you if you guard him. If you don't believe me just look at this series against San Antonio. Just agree with me lol. Diaw > Brad at the C spot. Diaw is even a better passer/defender.

Brad has missed a lot of wide open shots, ones that he usually hits. Its hard to debate if you are only going to go by the last two games he's played.

If Brad is now a 4 point, 2 rebound a game center, than we don't need to even talk about this. He needs to stop cashing his checks period. But is Brad a 4 point 2 rebound center?

[Rome]

Brad has missed a lot of wide open shots, ones that he usually hits. Its hard to debate if you are only going to go by the last two games he's played.

If Brad is now a 4 point, 2 rebound a game center, than we don't need to even talk about this. He needs to stop cashing his checks period. But is Brad a 4 point 2 rebound center?

thats not what i said. I know that brad is a good "shooting" center but if a man decides to D him up he won't get anything done. His career playoff average is just under 10 points.

[SacTownKid]

No Brad is not just a "good shooting center", I would darn near say, based on %, he is one of the leagues premier mid-range shooters. Period.

[Rome]

No Brad is not just a "good shooting center", I would darn near say, based on %, he is one of the leagues premier mid-range shooters. Period.

LOL So is Diaw if you put him at the C position and gets the open looks that Brad does.

Wow this discussion is going to continue up to 1:00 am.

I will show no mercy... :D

[SacTownKid]

LOL So is Diaw if you put him at the C position and gets the open looks that Brad does.

Wow this discussion is going to continue up to 1:00 am.

I will show no mercy... :D
Except for the fact that the knock on Diaw is that his outside shot isn't consistent. :D

Look even if putting Diaw at C for us was the issue, what would it solve? Fixing a hole with a smaller one if you ask me.

I say:

PG: Mike Bibby
SG: Bonzi Wells
SF: Ron Artest
PF: Brad Miller
C: Joel Przybilla

We can spread the floor. We have post up skill. Shotblocking. Rebouding (TONS). Size (Brad may not play like he is 7', but that doesn't change the fact that he is). And a dangerous team. No opposing coach wants to see that lineup. If we are getting killed with quickness, we can bring in Reef off the bench if a matchup calls for it, and even play Bonzi or Ron at PF (it worked at times this season). If teams go small on us, we can go small right back, or punish them with size.

[Rome]

Except for the fact that the knock on Diaw is that his outside shot isn't consistent. :D

Look even if putting Diaw at C for us was the issue, what would it solve? Fixing a hole with a smaller one if you ask me.

I say:

PG: Mike Bibby
SG: Bonzi Wells
SF: Ron Artest
PF: Brad Miller
C: Joel Przybilla

We can spread the floor. We have post up skill. Shotblocking. Rebouding (TONS). Size (Brad may not play like he is 7', but that doesn't change the fact that he is). And a dangerous team. No opposing coach wants to see that lineup. If we are getting killed with quickness, we can bring in Reef off the bench if a matchup calls for it, and even play Bonzi or Ron at PF (it worked at times this season). If teams go small on us, we can go small right back, or punish them with size.
aaah huh, but what if we Tim Thomas was our PF. :p

And woudn't putting Brad at C defeat the whole purpose of "spreading the floor" I mean PF's are generally quicker then centers which means they can stop Brad easier. So that won't work. If your gonna keep brad then you might as well keep him as a C.

[SacTownKid]

aaah huh, but what if we Tim Thomas was our PF. :p

And woudn't putting Brad at C defeat the whole purpose of "spreading the floor" I mean PF's are generally quicker then centers which means they can stop Brad easier. So that won't work. If your gonna keep brad then you might as well keep him as a C.

We can't have Tim Thomas, due to the fact that we have Kenny Thomas, and league rules CLEARLY STATE that you can't have more than one of the "Thomas family" on a team at one time.

Now on the other hand, it is OK to have two "Wallace boys" on the same team. It seems a little unfair, but rules are the rules. :p

[Rome]

aaw man if only Brad learned how to block shots and get rebounds then he could sort of be our "Rasheed Wallace" and Joel be our "Ben Wallace". But too bad Brad doesn't have that in his game... :(

Don't you think that would of been cool?

[SacTownKid]

As a closing statement I will say this.

Brad is Brad. I think what he does do well could be very critical to our success if we keep the monster combo of Ron/Bonzi, which I am all for. The lineup I posted above creates many mismatches that I think gives us the greater advantage over other teams.

Basketball is a game of matchups, and you always have ones that do not favor certain teams. I think that lineup could do very well together and it directly solves many of the problems we have now, and doesn't really create any new ones to point that we couldn't overcome them.

[SacTownKid]

aaw man if only Brad learned how to block shots and get rebounds then he could sort of be our "Rasheed Wallace" and Joel be our "Ben Wallace". But too bad Brad doesn't have that in his game... :(

Don't you think that would of been cool?

We've got Bonzi Wells, and Ron Artest. Our PF, and our PF.

[Rome]

I guess... I'll come back though if Brad has another 4 and 2 game on Friday ;)

[LPKingsFan]

aaw man if only Brad learned how to block shots and get rebounds then he could sort of be our "Rasheed Wallace" and Joel be our "Ben Wallace". But too bad Brad doesn't have that in his game... :(

Don't you think that would of been cool?

Actually, when Bonzi was hurt earlier this year, I envisioned a Kings squad modeled after the Pistons:

Bibby: Billups-type PG who can pass but would rather hit the big shot
Martin: Slasher/shooter/scorer like Rip
Artest: Defesive stopper like Prince, but better offensively
Miller: Sweet shooting big man like Sheed, but lacks the defensive prowess
Tyson Chandler: Offensively-inept shotblocker like Big Ben

Then you have SAR to play the McDyess role, Garica the 2/3 swingman, and get Mike James with the MLE to be... Mike James.

Of course then the questions are: what do you do with Bonzi? And how do you get Chandler?

Still, I've seen worse plans out there.

Edit: and I almost forgot... Corliss=Corliss ;)

[Rome]

Actually, when Bonzi was hurt earlier this year, I envisioned a Kings squad modeled after the Pistons:

Bibby: Billups-type PG who can pass but would rather hit the big shot
Martin: Slasher/shooter/scorer like Rip
Artest: Defesive stopper like Prince, but better offensively
Miller: Sweet shooting big man like Sheed, but lacks the defensive prowess
Tyson Chandler: Offensively-inept shotblocker like Big Ben

Then you have SAR to play the McDyess role, Garica the 2/3 swingman, and get Mike James with the MLE to be... Mike James.

Of course then the questions are: what do you do with Bonzi? And how do you get Chandler?

Still, I've seen worse plans out there.

hmmmm. Thats not so bad. :) But Miller would be a very very poor man's Sheed lol. Cause Sheed does more then just shooot 3's. He can take you in the post.

[LPKingsFan]

True, but you can't run the offense through Sheed. Like I said, not perfect, but I think doable if you figure out how to turn Bonzi/KT into Chandler.

[SacKings4Life21]

noooooo people nooooooo have any of you seen ty chan play in person!!! he sucks. and his contract is massive now... we dont want him for that price!!! he gets is foul trouble so fast, and can score at all.. he can rebound and block shots but he fouls out 50 games a year... I love the joel brad combo... resign bonzi (which i think will be easy with the MLE, but then we can get joel right? or wait u can offer a player an extension on ur team that wont matter if u go over the cap right?) anyway... mike bonzi/kevin Ron Brad/SAR Joel is a great 7 man rotation... plus garcia and whom ever are back up PG will be... i love it

[Bricklayer]

Thing is, great teams need to know who they are. Its not enough to just have great talent, you have to have a "flavor", something or someone you take pride in, build around, and that defines you. The Spurs and Pistons defend. Pretty much EVERYBODY defends. The Suns run, run run. The Mavs are interesting because they are in full fledged transition now from the Nellie Mavs to another defensive juggernaught.

Well, with the demise of our earlier Big Three, we now have kind of two competing flavors, and then a couple of spare parts guys. Flavor 1 is the Brad/Bibby holdover duo of sweet shooters. Flavor 2 is the Ron/Bonzi toughman 2/3 combo. There was even briefly a Flavor 3 of Kevin/Cisco/Thomas as athletic runners.

Now if you let Bonzi go, then there goes that "flavor", so where do you look for defnition then? Do you go back to the Brad/Bibby approach and bring Ron kicking and screaming along for the ride? Do you try to find Kevin a running mate, even though that leaves Ron out of the mix?

Whatever it is, we need some critical mass of players who play the game the same way. In years past, we were the ultimate passing team. People pointed to the shooting, and that was part of it, but what that team will always be remembered for is the amazing passing, starting with Vlade and Webb and JWill, then adding Doug...that was what defined us. That was "Kings basketball". Right now there IS no "Kings basketball". Every game we play it different.

As an aside, if we plan on being serious postseason threats in the near future, my money is on the Ron/Bonzi 2/3 battering ram Flavor. Its the one that best incorporates out best player. But that poses certain challenges for the rest of the roster. To make it take, at the very least you have to find a tough minded defensive stud or two up front. Get that critical mass of tough guy defensive types and say "we're going to be tough." But you also need some guys who can create space at the other roster spots. And since most shooters are soft in one way or the other, maybe those shooters should be role players, etc.

[Kings113]

A Brad/Pryzbilla 4/5 combo I'm not sure on for a few reasons.. also Pryzbilla isn't looking for a bench spot. Be great if he would accept that though.

Chandler's been playing excellent since late January. I'd be delighted if we got him, but I'm not sure if we do at all.

[Folsom Al]

Bottom-line .... TIME FOR A CHANGE :cool:

[nbrans]

As an aside, if we plan on being serious postseason threats in the near future, my money is on the Ron/Bonzi 2/3 battering ram Flavor. Its the one that best incorporates out best player. But that poses certain challenges for the rest of the roster. To make it take, at the very least you have to find a tough minded defensive stud or two up front. Get that critical mass of tough guy defensive types and say "we're going to be tough." But you also need some guys who can create space at the other roster spots. And since most shooters are soft in one way or the other, maybe those shooters should be role players, etc.

If we're going to go the battering ram route, might as well go all out and ship out Bibby for someone like Watson or Mike James and Miller for someone like Chandler or (theoretically anyway) the Wallace brothers and make this a James/Bonzi/Artest/SAR/Chandler juggernaut. Right now it's really not working to do it halfway. The Kings can't beat anyone with offense and they can't beat anyone with defense. It's an ugly blend that works about half the time, and isn't really scaring anyone.

Ideally you'd have that one alpha scorer, on solid secondary scorer (Ron can play that role) and the rest scoring opportunisitically and beating the crap out of the other team. I don't think think Bibby makes sense as that primary option because he can't play defense and is far too inconsistent. So either you feed SAR in the post every time down the floor (I have my doubts), you pray Kevin develops into an unstoppable offensive force (I have my doubts, but you never know with Kevin), or you ship out your holdovers until you get the right mix.

I don't really see this current team developing into anything fearsome, let's hope Petrie sees that as well and keeps the trade winds blowing.

[PFFFT!!]

After all is said and done this season, Petrie will have a clearer understanding of what is needed and what is not during the summer. Im looking forward to next season. :)

[SacTownKid]

A Brad/Pryzbilla 4/5 combo I'm not sure on for a few reasons.. also Pryzbilla isn't looking for a bench spot. Be great if he would accept that though.

Chandler's been playing excellent since late January. I'd be delighted if we got him, but I'm not sure if we do at all.
And those reasons are?

I wouldn't mind Chandler but there is really no way to get him here without giving up one of our other big deals in return. most likely Brad. He simply makes too much. Still the idea is to bring a paint defender. Tyson would be perfect, and I am sure there are other options than Tyson or Joel.

I think Joel could be had for the MLE, because Portland doesn't own his bird rights and teams with cap probably won't be looking at him as seriously.

[Kings113]

Money and speed. I just think it's up in the air. Not against getting him...

[SacKings4Life21]

And those reasons are?

I wouldn't mind Chandler but there is really no way to get him here without giving up one of our other big deals in return. most likely Brad. He simply makes too much. Still the idea is to bring a paint defender. Tyson would be perfect, and I am sure there are other options than Tyson or Joel.

I think Joel could be had for the MLE, because Portland doesn't own his bird rights and teams with cap probably won't be looking at him as seriously.


agreed. MLE will fill joel i think... but if we do that... can we resign bonzi because he is on our team? or would we have to use MLE to resign?

[nbrans]

Come on, people, we're talking about improving the defense here, not adding a dirt poor man's Brad Miller. Can you really see either Brad Miller or Joel Pryzbilla guarding Garnett, Bosh and whatever other good 4s are in the league? I sure can't.

The only type of player that makes sense alongside Brad is someone who is athletic enough to guard 4s and big enough to guard 5s. Joel Pryzbilla is a decent one on one defender and rebounder, but he's not that guy.

[Troy]

Come on, people, we're talking about improving the defense here, not adding a dirt poor man's Brad Miller. Can you really see either Brad Miller or Joel Pryzbilla guarding Garnett, Bosh and whatever other good 4s are in the league? I sure can't.

The only type of player that makes sense alongside Brad is someone who is athletic enough to guard 4s and big enough to guard 5s. Joel Pryzbilla is a decent one on one defender and rebounder, but he's not that guy.

Who is then??? That is probably the most desirable basketball player a big athletic shoot blocking/rebounding monster who can play PF and C. I'd take a big ogger who is an anti social SOB and doesn't like people putting the ball through our basket. You just say "guard our basket and give Bibby the ball when you get it" and let him do his thing, it doesn't have to be pretty. :D

How about some WWF big guy like the Undertaker? Isn't he like 7' feet or so and would scare the crap out of people going inside??? :D

[Rome]

Who is then??? That is probably the most desirable basketball player a big athletic shoot blocking/rebounding monster who can play PF and C. I'd take a big ogger who is an anti social SOB and doesn't like people putting the ball through our basket. You just say "guard our basket and give Bibby the ball when you get it" and let him do his thing, it doesn't have to be pretty. :D

How about some WWF big guy like the Undertaker? Isn't he like 7' feet or so and would scare the crap out of people going inside??? :D

He doesn't need to be 7'0. Griffen will do because he's very active on defense and blocks shots. We want a good help defender + shot blocking. Joel is a good man to man defender but thats about it...

[beemerr23]

Come on, people, we're talking about improving the defense here, not adding a dirt poor man's Brad Miller. Can you really see either Brad Miller or Joel Pryzbilla guarding Garnett, Bosh and whatever other good 4s are in the league? I sure can't.

The only type of player that makes sense alongside Brad is someone who is athletic enough to guard 4s and big enough to guard 5s. Joel Pryzbilla is a decent one on one defender and rebounder, but he's not that guy. I agree completely, putting Brad at the 4 is NOT the solution. If you're going to keep Brad at all, he needs to be at the C position. The only way to possibly keep Miller and improve the team is to get a solid PF who can block shots and rebound. We don't need a 6'7 Kenny Thomas in the post fighting for rebounds, that's why he averages so much. Brad Miller is completely useless when he's guarded on the perimeter, he can't pass, shoot, and doesn't even think about driving. Ultimately, we need to trade Miller/KT for a decent C and let Shareef run the PF position, he's been stellar.

Oh yeah, VF21...so much for Brad bouncing back in game 2 huh. ;)

[Kings113]

Agreed about Griffin.

Joel is a good shotblocker also.

[Troy]

I agree completely, putting Brad at the 4 is NOT the solution. If you're going to keep Brad at all, he needs to be at the C position. The only way to possibly keep Miller and improve the team is to get a solid PF who can block shots and rebound. We don't need a 6'7 Kenny Thomas in the post fighting for rebounds, that's why he averages so much. Brad Miller is completely useless when he's guarded on the perimeter, he can't pass, shoot, and doesn't even think about driving. Ultimately, we need to trade Miller/KT for a decent C and let Shareef run the PF position, he's been stellar.

Oh yeah, VF21...so much for Brad bouncing back in game 2 huh. ;)


Good post, I agree trade Miller and KT for a good Center. How about Marcus Camby? I loved how he played today again the Clippers. I heard he is the leader in blocked shots and makes rebounding look easy. He's a bit thin, but I think that plays to his advantage being as how he is so athletic. How about Camby for Miller and KT? I don't know the salary and I hope we can get another player from the Nuggets, Eduaro would be nice. That Mexican can play, no pun intended, I'm a big fan of his. :D

[SacTownKid]

agreed. MLE will fill joel i think... but if we do that... can we resign bonzi because he is on our team? or would we have to use MLE to resign?
We have Bonzi's bird rights so we can basicall sign him for whatever we want. I think that extra year could really work in our favor if it comes down to re-signing him, or in a sign and trade.

If Chicago and Atlanta don't want to pay Joel big $$$ than he is going to have to settle for the MLE, at best.

And Joel is a far better "help" defender (which is what we need) than a one-on-one defender. He gets his blocks from protecting the rim.